Duck

[GoSlash27]

highly skeptical of claims of "starter" or "franchise" QB.

Wait... there's a huge difference between "starter" and "franchise". "Starter" is merely being one of the top 32 QBs available in any given year. I think Duck qualifies for that. He hasn't yet shown himself to be a "franchise QB" (and certainly not "legendary"), but let's not pretend that all these descriptions mean the same thing.

[DesertSteel]

If they needed Duck to throw for 300 yards, I think he could do it. But right now they’ve got a formula and it’s worked to the tune of 7 of 8. If it ain’t broke...

[Mojouw]

Wait... there's a huge difference between "starter" and "franchise". "Starter" is merely being one of the top 32 QBs available in any given year. I think Duck qualifies for that. He hasn't yet shown himself to be a "franchise QB" (and certainly not "legendary"), but let's not pretend that all these descriptions mean the same thing.

I also agree they are two separate things. Right now, I am skeptical of Hodges being either long term.

Kyle Allen, Minshew, the Denver Allen, the big goofy dude for the NYG, etc. have all looked as good or better than Hodges over their initial 2-4 games. Then defenses get tape, see tendencies, develop keys, and make adjustments. In all the cases I listed in 2019, the "fun, young, maybe we have something and should trade Cam Newton, or whatever" QB then faced specific defensive game plans and cratered.

How Hodges responds when that moment comes for him, will be the first real test to see if he can climb from "intriguing back-up QB" to potential "starter" or more.

And honestly, there are 30 or so guys I would rather start at QB before I got to Hodges. https://www.pro-football-reference.c...19/passing.htm

[DesertSteel]

Just in case it gets overlooked: Duck, an undrafted rookie QB has outplayed and taken down the past two #1 overall picks, two weeks in a row.

[Dissolv]

Sometimes some pluck and some luck will allow a win for the Duck.

[GoSlash27]

I also agree they are two separate things. Right now, I am skeptical of Hodges being either long term.

Kyle Allen, Minshew, the Denver Allen, the big goofy dude for the NYG, etc. have all looked as good or better than Hodges over their initial 2-4 games. Then defenses get tape, see tendencies, develop keys, and make adjustments. In all the cases I listed in 2019, the "fun, young, maybe we have something and should trade Cam Newton, or whatever" QB then faced specific defensive game plans and cratered.

How Hodges responds when that moment comes for him, will be the first real test to see if he can climb from "intriguing back-up QB" to potential "starter" or more.

And honestly, there are 30 or so guys I would rather start at QB before I got to Hodges. https://www.pro-football-reference.c...19/passing.htm

I'll see your prf citation and raise you http://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/type/player-week

Ranked #14 this week, #22 last week, and #14 in week 6. His performance thus far has been average among starters.

[Mojouw]

I'll see your prf citation and raise you http://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/type/player-week

Ranked #14 this week, #22 last week, and #14 in week 6. His performance thus far has been average among starters.

Not in dispute. All I am saying is that, for me (and only me), there are roughly 30 guys who have played QB in the NFL in 2019 that I would pick if we were choosing up sides to play QB before I called Hodges' name.

My opinion may change as Hodges demonstrates growth and development. I have a hard time believing that after 3 very limited showings, anyone would be like "If my team entered the off-season with Devlin Hodges as their starting QB, I would be totally fine with that and not want or expect them to do anything further to add to the position group." That, in my mind, is what a starting quarterback is. A franchise guy is, not only do we have it locked down for this season, but the next 10 and we are going to build the entire offense around this dude.

[Squeegee Thompson]

Wait... there's a huge difference between "starter" and "franchise". "Starter" is merely being one of the top 32 QBs available in any given year. I think Duck qualifies for that. He hasn't yet shown himself to be a "franchise QB" (and certainly not "legendary"), but let's not pretend that all these descriptions mean the same thing.

"Starter" and "Franchise QB" aren't even in the same discussion. I don't think anyone is looking at Duck as a potential "franchise" guy, but he does look to be good enough to keep the lights on through the end of the season while we hope Ben makes his full recovery. Ben still is the franchise, but won't be so for much longer. Our next "franchise" guy isn't on the roster. Mason got a chance to establish himself as such, but failed the test.

Every single team in the league has burned a high end pick on their next "franchise". Of those 32 teams, I'd argue that maybe 10 hit pay dirt and have 'that guy' on their roster, including Pittsburgh. That means there were about 20 whiffs, or ballpark 1 in 3 chance of your high draft pick panning out.

I think Duck can develop into a viable #2 on the roster, he may push Mason down to #3 next year - but they'll both around unless some team makes an aggressive move (more likely for Duck than Mason at this point). The QB class looks underwhelming next year, but much more promising in 2021. I think that's the year the Steelers go after a big name QB and try to find Ben's successor. Duck is not Ben's successor. Let's not kid ourselves that he's being potentially viewed as such.

[Fire Goodell]

If they needed Duck to throw for 300 yards, I think he could do it. But right now they’ve got a formula and it’s worked to the tune of 7 of 8. If it ain’t broke...

I think so too, his low yardage is by design, not lack of ability. He's shown the ability to make the plays he needs to make, but coach isn't gonna have him throw more than 30 times unless necessary.

- - - Updated - - -

"Starter" and "Franchise QB" aren't even in the same discussion. I don't think anyone is looking at Duck as a potential "franchise" guy, but he does look to be good enough to keep the lights on through the end of the season while we hope Ben makes his full recovery. Ben still is the franchise, but won't be so for much longer. Our next "franchise" guy isn't on the roster. Mason got a chance to establish himself as such, but failed the test.

Every single team in the league has burned a high end pick on their next "franchise". Of those 32 teams, I'd argue that maybe 10 hit pay dirt and have 'that guy' on their roster, including Pittsburgh. That means there were about 20 whiffs, or ballpark 1 in 3 chance of your high draft pick panning out.

I think Duck can develop into a viable #2 on the roster, he may push Mason down to #3 next year - but they'll both around unless some team makes an aggressive move (more likely for Duck than Mason at this point). The QB class looks underwhelming next year, but much more promising in 2021. I think that's the year the Steelers go after a big name QB and try to find Ben's successor. Duck is not Ben's successor. Let's not kid ourselves that he's being potentially viewed as such.

We really don't know that. Why does Mason have a shot to become the franchise QB and Duck doesn't? Cause he's 6'5 and was drafted in the 3rd round? Duck has shown an ability to make intermediate / deep throws that had zero chance with Mason. He can scramble and throw on the run. Ben is retiring in 1-2 years, you better bet your ass that the Steeler FO is looking to see if he has that "franchise" potential. He's gotten off to a good start, and if he keeps this rolling, he should get his chance to be the guy. Pedigree is overrated. I know Tom Brady as an example is overused, but the 6th round nobody put a #1 overall pick (Bledsoe) on the bench for good. I've seen stranger things happen in this league.

[Iron Steeler]

Yeah, too early to tell, but his stature, only 6’? I can’t see a viable long term starter at that height. He’d have to become an extraordinary qb to pull that off (like Russell Wilson).

I can totally see him as a solid backup to Ben next year, and possibly holding down the fort until the next franchisee arrives

It's a different game now then 10nyears ago. QBs are soooooo protected. They prototype was 6'4 225 . Now its mobility,pocket mobility, quick release, and quick decisions. If your 6' qb can do all of that and your 6'5 qb cant who is the starter.

Almost like I explained Duck and Mason.

Duck has 3 touqh defensive on the schedule. Bills,Jets,Ravens. If he performs well vs these teams then I will jump on Duck is seriously good.

Right now I think it's a Cinderella story, just hope we dont turn into a pumpkin until after the superbowl.

[Fire Goodell]

The last two #1 overall picks were QB's at 6'1 or less. Just saying. Drew Brees and Russell Wilson also didn't get the memo that you can't be under 6'1 and play QB in the NFL

[Squeegee Thompson]

We really don't know that. Why does Mason have a shot to become the franchise QB and Duck doesn't? Cause he's 6'5 and was drafted in the 3rd round? Duck has shown an ability to make intermediate / deep throws that had zero chance with Mason. He can scramble and throw on the run. Ben is retiring in 1-2 years, you better bet your ass that the Steeler FO is looking to see if he has that "franchise" potential. He's gotten off to a good start, and if he keeps this rolling, he should get his chance to be the guy. Pedigree is overrated. I know Tom Brady as an example is overused, but the 6th round nobody put a #1 overall pick (Bledsoe) on the bench for good. I've seen stranger things happen in this league.

Mason got the shot because they moved up in the 3rd to snag him away from Cincinnati with Colbert going on the record as saying "we had a 1st round grade on him". Ben's reaction at the time (being pretty pissed off) indicated he thought they were drafting their next franchise guy as well. Like I'd mentioned earlier, this works only about 1 out of 3-to-4 times in the NFL - and it's becoming clear that this was a whiff on Pittsburgh's part. Often those guys can turn into serviceable backups while the search continues for your next "stud". Hell, we've got a former 1st rounder playing QB on the practice squad right now.

Sometimes you can catch lightning in a bottle and your QB without all the measurables can become your franchise like Bress or Wilson (not buying the Murray or Mayfield hype). Maybe you get really lucky and stumble into a Doug Flutie. More likely, it's a Gardner Minshew or Duck Hodges guy who looks amazing for a handful of games, then very average once enough snaps are on tape and DCs start scheming to their weaknesses. Hopefully it won't happen to Duck, but I won't be shocked if and when it does.

My overall point is that franchise guys are really, really, hard to find and teams have to be prepared to swing and miss more often than they knock it out of the park. After Elway retired, Denver had Jack and Shit before stumbling into Manning's last few years. Since Manning, they've been comically bad at trying to find a QB. Hell, Chicago has had NOTHING since Jim McMahon - and they keep trying and failing to find anybody competent to put under center.

Next year isn't the year for that search. The talent is underwhelming, and you've got one last run with Ben before he hangs 'em up. If Ben can even be a top 12-15 QB next year, this defense will have them winning most of their games. Duck should be considered a viable backup who can keep the ship on course if Ben goes down (the way Homestead Charlie was for years), but 2021 will be a serious year for Pittsburgh to go after their next "guy".

[GoSlash27]

I have a hard time believing that after 3 very limited showings, anyone would be like "If my team entered the off-season with Devlin Hodges as their starting QB, I would be totally fine with that and not want or expect them to do anything further to add to the position group." That, in my mind, is what a starting quarterback is.

Ah, well that's where our mileage varies. There are 32 starters in the league and most of them don't make the playoffs, let alone feel comfortable with their QB play while there. Thus, my bar for "starter" is considerably lower than yours.

[DesertSteel]

Why not just enjoy the moment and appreciate Duck for what he's doing? He hasn't proven to be a quality NFL starter yet, but he also hasn't proven not to be. He's 3-0 and is a fan-favorite type of guy. Whichever one he proves to be or not be, will happen soon enough. Just enjoy the ride.

[Fire Goodell]

Mason got the shot because they moved up in the 3rd to snag him away from Cincinnati with Colbert going on the record as saying "we had a 1st round grade on him". Ben's reaction at the time (being pretty pissed off) indicated he thought they were drafting their next franchise guy as well. Like I'd mentioned earlier, this works only about 1 out of 3-to-4 times in the NFL - and it's becoming clear that this was a whiff on Pittsburgh's part. Often those guys can turn into serviceable backups while the search continues for your next "stud". Hell, we've got a former 1st rounder playing QB on the practice squad right now.

Sometimes you can catch lightning in a bottle and your QB without all the measurables can become your franchise like Bress or Wilson (not buying the Murray or Mayfield hype). Maybe you get really lucky and stumble into a Doug Flutie. More likely, it's a Gardner Minshew or Duck Hodges guy who looks amazing for a handful of games, then very average once enough snaps are on tape and DCs start scheming to their weaknesses. Hopefully it won't happen to Duck, but I won't be shocked if and when it does.

My overall point is that franchise guys are really, really, hard to find and teams have to be prepared to swing and miss more often than they knock it out of the park. After Elway retired, Denver had Jack and Shit before stumbling into Manning's last few years. Since Manning, they've been comically bad at trying to find a QB. Hell, Chicago has had NOTHING since Jim McMahon - and they keep trying and failing to find anybody competent to put under center.

Next year isn't the year for that search. The talent is underwhelming, and you've got one last run with Ben before he hangs 'em up. If Ben can even be a top 12-15 QB next year, this defense will have them winning most of their games. Duck should be considered a viable backup who can keep the ship on course if Ben goes down (the way Homestead Charlie was for years), but 2021 will be a serious year for Pittsburgh to go after their next "guy".

So basically Mason gets a shot because he was drafted in rd. 3. I say Duck deserves the shot more because he did what Mason could not so far. I don't have expectations for him to be great, but also won't write him off just yet. Especially if he keeps winning games for us.

[tube517]

Why not just enjoy the moment and appreciate Duck for what he's doing? He hasn't proven to be a quality NFL starter yet, but he also hasn't proven not to be. He's 3-0 and is a fan-favorite type of guy. Whichever one he proves to be or not be, will happen soon enough. Just enjoy the ride.

This.

[Squeegee Thompson]

So basically Mason gets a shot because he was drafted in rd. 3. I say Duck deserves the shot more because he did what Mason could not so far. I don't have expectations for him to be great, but also won't write him off just yet. Especially if he keeps winning games for us.

I think you're misconstruing what I'm trying to say. Mason was being groomed as the possible 'franchise' because the Pittsburgh brain trust thought h was first round talent that slipped in the draft, so they snatched him up. It happens. Remember the lost-puppy-dog look on Aaron Rogers' face during the draft when team after team let him slide in the 1st? I think the Steelers were hoping for a similar fortune. Their expectations of Duck are much lower, even though he's performing at a higher level than Mason and giving them a real shot in every game.

Mason was drafted because he had 'most' of the qualities you're looking for in a franchise QB: 6'5", high release arm angle, accurate passer, good deep ball thrower, high football IQ, hard worker, high confidence, film room junkie. Of course there were cons as well: average arm strength, questionable footwork, came from a spread offense. They were hoping that he'd have a fast processor, go through his reads quickly and use release speed and accuracy to compensate for arm strength. It worked in Philip Rivers' case. It didn't in Masons. After going nighty-night in the Baltimore game, his progressions were slow to develop, his footwork and accuracy were both shoddy, his much-anticipated deep balls were non-existent, and frankly his confidence was shot.

Duck is everything right now that Mason is not: confident, mobile in the pocket, taking deep shots courageously, accurate with nice touch on his passes and showing a nice ability to tuck and run. He's also short, throws at a 3/4 arm angle, which will lead to more batted balls, and doesn't have Russell Wilson's speed or Brees' quickness to extend plays in the backfield.

I'm not writing off Duck, I'm just realistically setting the expectations that he'll never be the face of the franchise for the next decade. It's a fun story for the 2019 season and I hope it continues into January and cements a well-deserved #2 position behind Ben next year. But make no mistake, they'll be looking for their next 'Ben' in 2 years, minimum: A prototypical 6'4" / 6'5" QB with a howitzer for an arm that can fit the ball into tight windows a put those 20 yard out patterns on a rope. The league is full of those guys - mostly holding clipboards because the rest of their game never developed enough to complement their physical advantages.

[DesertSteel]

I think you're misconstruing what I'm trying to say. Mason was being groomed as the possible 'franchise' because the Pittsburgh brain trust thought h was first round talent that slipped in the draft, so they snatched him up. It happens. Remember the lost-puppy-dog look on Aaron Rogers' face during the draft when team after team let him slide in the 1st? I think the Steelers were hoping for a similar fortune. Their expectations of Duck are much lower, even though he's performing at a higher level than Mason and giving them a real shot in every game.

Mason was drafted because he had 'most' of the qualities you're looking for in a franchise QB: 6'5", high release arm angle, accurate passer, good deep ball thrower, high football IQ, hard worker, high confidence, film room junkie. Of course there were cons as well: average arm strength, questionable footwork, came from a spread offense. They were hoping that he'd have a fast processor, go through his reads quickly and use release speed and accuracy to compensate for arm strength. It worked in Philip Rivers' case. It didn't in Masons. After going nighty-night in the Baltimore game, his progressions were slow to develop, his footwork and accuracy were both shoddy, his much-anticipated deep balls were non-existent, and frankly his confidence was shot.

Duck is everything right now that Mason is not: confident, mobile in the pocket, taking deep shots courageously, accurate with nice touch on his passes and showing a nice ability to tuck and run. He's also short, throws at a 3/4 arm angle, which will lead to more batted balls, and doesn't have Russell Wilson's speed or Brees' quickness to extend plays in the backfield.

I'm not writing off Duck, I'm just realistically setting the expectations that he'll never be the face of the franchise for the next decade. It's a fun story for the 2019 season and I hope it continues into January and cements a well-deserved #2 position behind Ben next year. But make no mistake, they'll be looking for their next 'Ben' in 2 years, minimum: A prototypical 6'4" / 6'5" QB with a howitzer for an arm that can fit the ball into tight windows a put those 20 yard out patterns on a rope. The league is full of those guys - mostly holding clipboards because the rest of their game never developed enough to complement their physical advantages.

I'm not so sure about that. The height barrier has already been broken - multiple times, and now the running QB barrier is coming down. I think two years from now, QB evaluation may look a little different. Like you said, there's plenty of those prototypical guys who are bums.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Here is it! Many on here still don't want to admit they was wrong on Duck. Duck just keeps winning and doing everything ask! No starter though and holding down the fort for Ben! Hope these members root for Duck in the playoffs! Ps I'm sure one or more will write 5 huge paragraphs to prove they know more then me!

[Edman]

I'm not so sure about that. The height barrier has already been broken - multiple times, and now the running QB barrier is coming down. I think two years from now, QB evaluation may look a little different. Like you said, there's plenty of those prototypical guys who are bums.

The Running QB had no barrier. It just has a distinct shelf life. It doesn’t last long and is not sustainable. Just as quickly as it explodes on the scene, it disappears just as quickly. The only barrier a running QB faces is throwing ability. If he can’t throw at an elite level, he falls off a cliff the moment his skill diminishes.

[teegre]

Side-note...

Please, stop using the phrase “The Steelers had a R1 grade on Rudolph” as a way of slamming Tomlin & Colbert.

The Steelers did not draft Rudolph in R1. In fact, the Steelers didn’t even draft him in R2. Nope. The Steelers waited until R3 to draft Rudolph.

If the Steelers had actually drafted Rudolph in R1, I could see the logic is bashing the pick/bashing the Steelers for making a bad choice. But, again, they didn’t actually draft him until R3.

But, but, but... “They said it.” So what!?! After the pick, Ben criticized Rudolph. The front office responded by boosting Rudolph’s ego by saying that they had a “R1 grade on him.”

It’s akin to when you wife/girlfriend asks you if she looks good on an outfit... You always say that she looks good.


As someone else stated, enjoy the now. Too many of you are actively searching out reasons to be angry. Why? This is a fun season. So, you know, have some fun.

[DesertSteel]

The Running QB had no barrier. It just has a distinct shelf life. It doesn’t last long and is not sustainable. Just as quickly as it explodes on the scene, it disappears just as quickly. The only barrier a running QB faces is throwing ability. If he can’t throw at an elite level, he falls off a cliff the moment his skill diminishes.

Injuries are a barrier. Teams wouldn’t draft dual threat quarterbacks for that reason. That is now being re-thought.

[Edman]

Injuries are a barrier. Teams wouldn’t draft dual threat quarterbacks for that reason. That is now being re-thought.

I doubt teams are banging their doors down to get another Lamar Jackson. No matter how good his year has been thus far. Teams know better after Cunningham, Vick and Kaepernick that the Running QB doesn’t last. Already Jackson is feeling the cost of running, even though he hasn’t even been hit that much. Yet. If the Ravens commit to Jackson long-term, they WILL ask him to tone it down, which will expose him as a mediocre passer unless he proves otherwise.

Mobile QB’s on the other hand are a different story. Teams always want a quarterback who can move around, but if your Quarterback’s greatest asset is running and not throwing the ball, he will be overlooked.

[86WARD]

Side-note...

Please, stop using the phrase “The Steelers had a R1 grade on Rudolph” as a way of slamming Tomlin & Colbert.

The Steelers did not draft Rudolph in R1. In fact, the Steelers didn’t even draft him in R2. Nope. The Steelers waited until R3 to draft Rudolph.

If the Steelers had actually drafted Rudolph in R1, I could see the logic is bashing the pick/bashing the Steelers for making a bad choice. But, again, they didn’t actually draft him until R3.

But, but, but... “They said it.” So what!?! After the pick, Ben criticized Rudolph. The front office responded by boosting Rudolph’s ego by saying that they had a “R1 grade on him.”

It’s akin to when you wife/girlfriend asks you if she looks good on an outfit... You always say that she looks good.


As someone else stated, enjoy the now. Too many of you are actively searching out reasons to be angry. Why? This is a fun season. So, you know, have some fun.

QFT.

Not to mention...what are they going to say about a possible future QB? “We think he’s a solid Round 3 gamble.”?

[86WARD]

I’m feeling really Ducky today!!!

[tube517]

Side-note...

Please, stop using the phrase “The Steelers had a R1 grade on Rudolph” as a way of slamming Tomlin & Colbert.

The Steelers did not draft Rudolph in R1. In fact, the Steelers didn’t even draft him in R2. Nope. The Steelers waited until R3 to draft Rudolph.

If the Steelers had actually drafted Rudolph in R1, I could see the logic is bashing the pick/bashing the Steelers for making a bad choice. But, again, they didn’t actually draft him until R3.

But, but, but... “They said it.” So what!?! After the pick, Ben criticized Rudolph. The front office responded by boosting Rudolph’s ego by saying that they had a “R1 grade on him.”

It’s akin to when you wife/girlfriend asks you if she looks good on an outfit... You always say that she looks good.


As someone else stated, enjoy the now. Too many of you are actively searching out reasons to be angry. Why? This is a fun season. So, you know, have some fun.

So, I can't say "They had a R6 grade on Colin Holba"?

[GoSlash27]

Side-note...

Please, stop using the phrase “The Steelers had a R1 grade on Rudolph” as a way of slamming Tomlin & Colbert.

The Steelers did not draft Rudolph in R1. In fact, the Steelers didn’t even draft him in R2. Nope. The Steelers waited until R3 to draft Rudolph.

If the Steelers had actually drafted Rudolph in R1, I could see the logic is bashing the pick/bashing the Steelers for making a bad choice. But, again, they didn’t actually draft him until R3.

But, but, but... “They said it.” So what!?! After the pick, Ben criticized Rudolph. The front office responded by boosting Rudolph’s ego by saying that they had a “R1 grade on him.”

It’s akin to when you wife/girlfriend asks you if she looks good on an outfit... You always say that she looks good.


As someone else stated, enjoy the now. Too many of you are actively searching out reasons to be angry. Why? This is a fun season. So, you know, have some fun.

Hell, the only thing wrong with Rudolph is a confidence problem. He'll work through that eventually, so I don't think we've seen the last of him.

As for Duck, he remains what he has always been; a capable QB who tends to float his deep passes. I'm more impressed with him the more I watch him play.

[Mojouw]

The Running QB had no barrier. It just has a distinct shelf life. It doesn’t last long and is not sustainable. Just as quickly as it explodes on the scene, it disappears just as quickly. The only barrier a running QB faces is throwing ability. If he can’t throw at an elite level, he falls off a cliff the moment his skill diminishes.

The "running qb" had a massive barrier to overcome. First, and I will attempt to orient this discussion to ignore this - "running QB" was code word for "black QB" and all of the negative assumptions and stereotypes that were long attached to that scenario. Look into the struggles of Doug Williams and Warren Moon if you wish to know more. It should be said that Doug Flutie, Tim Tebow, Matt Jones (cocaine!!) and other white QBs (such as every one that played for Nebraska) have also had the "running QB" label applied to them as well.

I think that a running QB has no barrier now because of how offense has changed in the NFL in the past few seasons. The incorporation of college style offense into the NFL has been a literal game changer. Teams no longer are set in taking a guy who runs offense style A in college and forcing him to play offense style B (which is totally different and typically hides his strengths and magnifies his weaknesses). That for far too long was how the NFL rolled. Guys like Kordell Stewart, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb, Culpepper, McNair, Tyrod Taylor, even Mariotta all entered the league when no one was really doing what is now standard.

I know this will bring out the torches and pitchforks, but imagine Kordell in basically the Ravens 2019 offense in the late 1990s NFL. Or Mike Vick in about the same situation. That was when linebackers were still going over 250 pounds. It would've been a bloodbath. But the NFL believed that type of offense wouldn't and by definition couldn't work in the NFL. We now know that was just really bad coaching and not true.

So yeah, the running QB barrier is largely over now -- but it took the NFL basically running out of traditional drop-back QB options before they took that barrier down.

It does need acknowledged that if you can't hit about 60% of your passes, it doesn't matter what kind of QB you are, you are not playing long in the NFL.

[Shoes]

The "running qb" had a massive barrier to overcome. First, and I will attempt to orient this discussion to ignore this - "running QB" was code word for "black QB" and all of the negative assumptions and stereotypes that were long attached to that scenario. Look into the struggles of Doug Williams and Warren Moon if you wish to know more. It should be said that Doug Flutie, Tim Tebow, Matt Jones (cocaine!!) and other white QBs (such as every one that played for Nebraska) have also had the "running QB" label applied to them as well.

I think that a running QB has no barrier now because of how offense has changed in the NFL in the past few seasons. The incorporation of college style offense into the NFL has been a literal game changer. Teams no longer are set in taking a guy who runs offense style A in college and forcing him to play offense style B (which is totally different and typically hides his strengths and magnifies his weaknesses). That for far too long was how the NFL rolled. Guys like Kordell Stewart, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb, Culpepper, McNair, Tyrod Taylor, even Mariotta all entered the league when no one was really doing what is now standard.

I know this will bring out the torches and pitchforks, but imagine Kordell in basically the Ravens 2019 offense in the late 1990s NFL. Or Mike Vick in about the same situation. That was when linebackers were still going over 250 pounds. It would've been a bloodbath. But the NFL believed that type of offense wouldn't and by definition couldn't work in the NFL. We now know that was just really bad coaching and not true.

So yeah, the running QB barrier is largely over now -- but it took the NFL basically running out of traditional drop-back QB options before they took that barrier down.

It does need acknowledged that if you can't hit about 60% of your passes, it doesn't matter what kind of QB you are, you are not playing long in the NFL.

Don't forget this guy.

[steelreserve]

The "running qb" had a massive barrier to overcome. First, and I will attempt to orient this discussion to ignore this - "running QB" was code word for "black QB" and all of the negative assumptions and stereotypes that were long attached to that scenario. Look into the struggles of Doug Williams and Warren Moon if you wish to know more. It should be said that Doug Flutie, Tim Tebow, Matt Jones (cocaine!!) and other white QBs (such as every one that played for Nebraska) have also had the "running QB" label applied to them as well.

I think that a running QB has no barrier now because of how offense has changed in the NFL in the past few seasons. The incorporation of college style offense into the NFL has been a literal game changer. Teams no longer are set in taking a guy who runs offense style A in college and forcing him to play offense style B (which is totally different and typically hides his strengths and magnifies his weaknesses). That for far too long was how the NFL rolled. Guys like Kordell Stewart, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb, Culpepper, McNair, Tyrod Taylor, even Mariotta all entered the league when no one was really doing what is now standard.

I know this will bring out the torches and pitchforks, but imagine Kordell in basically the Ravens 2019 offense in the late 1990s NFL. Or Mike Vick in about the same situation. That was when linebackers were still going over 250 pounds. It would've been a bloodbath. But the NFL believed that type of offense wouldn't and by definition couldn't work in the NFL. We now know that was just really bad coaching and not true.

So yeah, the running QB barrier is largely over now -- but it took the NFL basically running out of traditional drop-back QB options before they took that barrier down.

It does need acknowledged that if you can't hit about 60% of your passes, it doesn't matter what kind of QB you are, you are not playing long in the NFL.

I am not sure I buy that. The reason there are so many more "running" QBs now is because there are more of them who actually CAN throw the ball. Not because the coaches in the '80s and '90s were all idiots who kept passing over good players and ignoring new schemes for no reason whatsoever, other than they were stupidly stuck in their ways.

The big, BIG difference between now and then is how much the college game has changed. 30 years ago, it was a lot less sophisticated. A real passing game is really difficult and takes a lot of coordination that many teams just don't have (watch any HS game and it becomes obvious), and in those days even a lot of major college teams weren't up for it. The option offense was either a run or a different run - that was it. I mean, the 1988 national championship was between two teams with some of the best option/mobile college QBs ever, Notre Dame and West Virginia, and both passed something like 10 or 15 times the whole game. They looked for guys with the skill set to run that specific offense to perfection; they didn't care if they had a QB who made it big in the NFL, they wanted to win college championships, so they got QBs who were perfect for their simplified college offenses.

No, it's not that all the coaches said "college offenses don't work in the NFL" because they were stupid and ignorant. It's that an '80s college option offense WAS way too one-dimensional to work in the pros. It would fucking suck, and the QBs running it in college had little to offer besides running it in the pros.

It's not that NFL offenses changed by suddenly going "a-ha!" and incorporating the college game - it's that the college game, and the type of players it produced, changed into stuff that could actually work in the NFL. Honestly, what made that happen was two things - Michael Vick showing what kinds of things were possible with a QB who was both fast AND a legitimate passer; and then you had the Oregon/Florida type spread offenses, which were not really viable pro offenses, but helped raise the table stakes of the skill set needed to play QB. Then the group of grade school kids and high school coaches below them saw that - and what do you know, 10 years later, you had a whole lot of mobile QBs coming up who were a lot better on average than the ones before, and you had college offenses that prioritized that, rather than basically a glorified running back who could throw a little.

Kordell Stewart's problem was that he was inaccurate and he threw more interceptions than TDs - not that he came around too early and his career was stifled by a bunch of Philistines. There had been good "mobile" QBs before - Cunningham, Steve Young, etc. - and after (but still before the current bumper crop) - McNair, Culpepper, Vick, McNabb ... the one thing they have in common is that the GOOD ones got a chance, and had long productive careers. Kordell had a career more like Rodney Peete's, because as a passer he was about as good as Rodney Peete. He would be a shitty starting QB in a read-option or hybrid college-style offense today, because every one of the current group of QBs in that style, along with the Vicks, McNairs, Culpeppers, McNabbs, etc. ... is simply a lot better passer than he ever was.