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Thread: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

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    Senior Member Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute"> DesertSteel's Avatar

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    Question TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Whatever happened to the TE being the QB's best friend? This team has 312 yards to TEs all season -- 26 yards a game. If any offense/QB needed some help from the TE, this one does? Vannet and McD are serviceable and capable of more. What would really be nice is an elite pass catching TE in the draft next year. But would we even utilize him effectively?

    Why isn't this team, with backup QBs, utilizing the safety blanket of the TE?

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    I suspect it is because the first back-up QB to get some run this season never made it through his reads to the TE and if he did, declined to throw it into coverage to the TE.

    Hodges already looked McDonald's way more in one game than Rudolph did in any 2 games prior.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Rudolph would glance at the #1 receiver and then immediately panic and dump it to the running back, skipping all the other reads including the TE.

    Or, if he didn't immediately dump it, he would progress S-L-O-W-L-Y through the other WRs and rarely make it to the tight end. Overall just a bad situation for them, having to do more with the QB than anything else.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    That ended when Miller retired. Top QB & top TE will always be money in the bank.
    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are
    the easiest person to fool."

    --Richard Feynmann

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I suspect it is because the first back-up QB to get some run this season never made it through his reads to the TE and if he did, declined to throw it into coverage to the TE.

    Hodges already looked McDonald's way more in one game than Rudolph did in any 2 games prior.
    4 targets for 28 yards?

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    4 targets for 28 yards?
    I thought it was more than that.

    Believe it or not, he has been targeted on almost 12% of passes attempted by Steelers QBs in 2019 - -https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/pit/2019.htm

    Which is actually MORE than last season (around 10%) -- https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/pit/2018.htm

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I thought it was more than that.

    Believe it or not, he has been targeted on almost 12% of passes attempted by Steelers QBs in 2019 - -https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/pit/2019.htm

    Which is actually MORE than last season (around 10%) -- https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/pit/2018.htm
    Watching Rudolph for the Vikings last night made me realize how much we're missing in this offense without a playmaking TE.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Jay Samuels is a TE
    My Avatar is worse than the Madden Curse. My Previous avatars: 1- Antonio Brown, 2- Juju / Conner, 3- Tom Brady, 4- Lamar Jackson. Their careers all went south when I added them as my avatar, so I'm trying to make something good out of the bad

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Goodell View Post
    Jay Samuels is a TE
    I’d actually love it if they put 25 pounds on him and moved him to TE.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Tight ends against Arizona are catching like 75% of balls being thrown their way, 13 tds so far this year and have almost 1000 yards. Interestingly enough the Seahawks are the second worst at defending TE's and Vance caught two TD's that day with MR throwing it. So expect Vance to have a good day on Sunday.

    We still need to draft a good one though. Poor Shoes.






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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by 43Hitman View Post
    Tight ends against Arizona are catching like 75% of balls being thrown their way, 13 tds so far this year and have almost 1000 yards. Interestingly enough the Seahawks are the second worst at defending TE's and Vance caught two TD's that day with MR throwing it. So expect Vance to have a good day on Sunday.

    We still need to draft a good one though. Poor Shoes.
    I think you might need to send this memo to Fichtner so he’s aware of the trend.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    The Taperiots are in the same boat: they have the fewest targets, completions, etc. to a TE in the entire league. In turn, the Texans could focus on doubling Edelman and putting a CB in White.

    Luckily for the Steelers, McDonald is actually a very good TE (much better than anyone on the Taperiots roster). It’s just a matter of getting the ball to him... and, I do not mean via bubble screens.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I’d actually love it if they put 25 pounds on him and moved him to TE.

    certainly has the hands but doesnt have the height to add 25 pounds and you want that LONG target at TE he just isnt gonna grow any taller ..

    but man he has some nice hands and speed along with nifty moves for a TE
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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    I think it's more of a quarterback issue than a TE issue. McDonald didn't just go from Mike Ditka 2.0 last year, steamrolling and stiff-arming defenders into a guy stealing a paycheck overnight. What changed? He doesn't have a HOF QB feeding him the ball on time, in space when he can do all of his YAC magic.

    If Vance was pedestrian with Ben under center, then I'd be really concerned. It sucks, because the one year this guy finally stays healthy - Ben goes on the shelf. TE#2 or #3 can be upgraded, but that can be done on day 2 or even day 3. This team has much more pressing needs than TE, IMO. WR, RB, LG, ILB all seem like bigger holes to fill than TE in the offseason.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    certainly has the hands but doesnt have the height to add 25 pounds and you want that LONG target at TE he just isnt gonna grow any taller ..

    but man he has some nice hands and speed along with nifty moves for a TE
    I tend to think we create the rigid job requirements for positions that need to be re-evaluated. Just like the belief that QBs had to be at least 6’2”. The bottom line is that talent wins the day.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Whatever happened to the TE being the QB's best friend? This team has 312 yards to TEs all season -- 26 yards a game. If any offense/QB needed some help from the TE, this one does? Vannet and McD are serviceable and capable of more. What would really be nice is an elite pass catching TE in the draft next year. But would we even utilize him effectively?

    Why isn't this team, with backup QBs, utilizing the safety blanket of the TE?
    Our TE's are blocking, and because we aren't using play action are often left out of the passing game. Samules or a back who can catch is the QB's best friend.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by Squeegee Thompson View Post
    . . . If Vance was pedestrian with Ben under center, then I'd be really concerned. It sucks, because the one year this guy finally stays healthy - Ben goes on the shelf. TE#2 or #3 can be upgraded, but that can be done on day 2 or even day 3. This team has much more pressing needs than TE, IMO. WR, RB, LG, ILB all seem like bigger holes to fill than TE in the offseason.
    I think we are fine at ILB and RB. We will need to start retooling our OL soon, but honestly if we keep this core intact with a couple replacements/upgrades, next year could be our year with Ben back and this defense improving on this year.
    I think we beat Seattle, the 49ers and the Ravens with Ben under center this season and this defense.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    no team had fewer receiving yards from the tight end position than the Steelers this past season...

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    no team had fewer receiving yards from the tight end position than the Steelers this past season...
    I'm gonna go ahead and guess they had the fewest receiving yards at a number of positions.

    An interesting note about the draft and TEs for the Steelers. So far, since 2016 there are two TEs that the Steelers were in a realistic position to draft that have demonstrated offense changing abilities; Mark Andrews and George Kittle.

    In both cases, they took a QB instead.

    Take a look at this: http://pfref.com/tiny/F6kG6

    There are not many TEs floating around the NFL that have the all around skill set to dominate an offense the way Kelce and Kittle do. Based on that draft list (2014-19) NFL teams are AWFUL at projecting TEs.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I'm gonna go ahead and guess they had the fewest receiving yards at a number of positions.

    An interesting note about the draft and TEs for the Steelers. So far, since 2016 there are two TEs that the Steelers were in a realistic position to draft that have demonstrated offense changing abilities; Mark Andrews and George Kittle.

    In both cases, they took a QB instead.

    Take a look at this: http://pfref.com/tiny/F6kG6

    There are not many TEs floating around the NFL that have the all around skill set to dominate an offense the way Kelce and Kittle do. Based on that draft list (2014-19) NFL teams are AWFUL at projecting TEs.
    With Andrews there were thoughts that he was just a receiving TE, because he rarely blocked in his college offense. There were also concerns about his drop rate and his knee injury in his draft year. But he put up good speed and movement numbers at the combine, so it was apparent he was back from the injury.

    Still, a TE that doesn't block and drops the football kind of could make you weary, so its not a shock that he ended up in the 3rd round.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    With Andrews there were thoughts that he was just a receiving TE, because he rarely blocked in his college offense. There were also concerns about his drop rate and his knee injury in his draft year. But he put up good speed and movement numbers at the combine, so it was apparent he was back from the injury.

    Still, a TE that doesn't block and drops the football kind of could make you weary, so its not a shock that he ended up in the 3rd round.
    I seem to remember that now that point it out. In fact, Baltimore seems to have agreed, since they took Hayden Hurst in the first round that year also.

    I think that across the league, no one knows how to accurately project TE prospects. Too many either only block in college or don't block at all - so you only get half the picture. Plus, maybe 1 in 10 has an impactful rookie year, so the real evaluation is 2-3 seasons out.

    Honestly, I don't think that there are really that many good TEs across the league right now. So I am not certain that I can really call the Steelers to task for not having one...dunno...just a half-formed thought. It does seem that the position is not high on their roster building priorities. They try to get one every other year or so, but not until later in the draft...

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    (Samuels) certainly has the hands but doesnt have the height to add 25 pounds and you want that LONG target at TE he just isnt gonna grow any taller ..

    but man he has some nice hands and speed along with nifty moves for a TE
    Since he has nice hands, speed and nifty moves why don't they put him at receiver?

    He is the same size and speed as JuJu.
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    ....She'll make her way" ~ Natalie Merchant

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    "Tight end George Kittle, a key cog in the San Francisco rushing attack, embraced the opportunities to block. Told that the team ran the ball 42 times, he said, “That’s awesome. I could have gone for 50.”


    https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...bout-blocking/


    It's a crime that this guy isn't a Steeler.
    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are
    the easiest person to fool."

    --Richard Feynmann

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I seem to remember that now that point it out. In fact, Baltimore seems to have agreed, since they took Hayden Hurst in the first round that year also.

    I think that across the league, no one knows how to accurately project TE prospects. Too many either only block in college or don't block at all - so you only get half the picture. Plus, maybe 1 in 10 has an impactful rookie year, so the real evaluation is 2-3 seasons out.

    Honestly, I don't think that there are really that many good TEs across the league right now. So I am not certain that I can really call the Steelers to task for not having one...dunno...just a half-formed thought. It does seem that the position is not high on their roster building priorities. They try to get one every other year or so, but not until later in the draft...

    It really wouldn't matter if there were. The Steelers seem to have lost their bearings on this position.
    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are
    the easiest person to fool."

    --Richard Feynmann

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I suspect it is because the first back-up QB to get some run this season never made it through his reads to the TE and if he did, declined to throw it into coverage to the TE.

    Hodges already looked McDonald's way more in one game than Rudolph did in any 2 games prior.
    why wasn’t he able to get through his reads or make passes to the TE? Was he incapable or was he not properly coached? Hard to say isn’t it? Maybe we’ll know more next year with a QB coach in place.

    we do know that Dupree was pretty useless as a pass rusher until porter was replaced. So coaching does matter in that instance - maybe it matters with QB coaching as well

    i’m also guessing (from just a fan’s perspective) that Fichtner was too busy drawing up his brilliant game plans and couldn’t pay enough attention to his young QB’s

    Fichtner: I’m too busy with the game plan, i just can’t spend enough time with these guys

    Rooney; ok, we’re getting a QB coach

    i wouldn’t give too much credit to Hodges making a few more passes to the TE either, seems the opposing teams had him pretty figured out by the end of the season, there’s a reason why the team named Rudolph the first backup to Ben already for next season

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-in-west View Post
    why wasnít he able to get through his reads or make passes to the TE? Was he incapable or was he not properly coached? Hard to say isnít it? Maybe weíll know more next year with a QB coach in place.

    we do know that Dupree was pretty useless as a pass rusher until porter was replaced. So coaching does matter in that instance - maybe it matters with QB coaching as well

    iím also guessing (from just a fanís perspective) that Fichtner was too busy drawing up his brilliant game plans and couldnít pay enough attention to his young QBís

    Fichtner: Iím too busy with the game plan, i just canít spend enough time with these guys

    Rooney; ok, weíre getting a QB coach

    i wouldnít give too much credit to Hodges making a few more passes to the TE either, seems the opposing teams had him pretty figured out by the end of the season, thereís a reason why the team named Rudolph the first backup to Ben already for next season
    Maybe? I don't think there is any amount of coaching that is going to make Rudolph better. His problem is squarely between his ears. He plays scared. Scared of making mistakes and scared of challenging DBs.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    What would Kittle have looked like in last season's offense? I don't think that was the issue.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Maybe? I don't think there is any amount of coaching that is going to make Rudolph better. His problem is squarely between his ears. He plays scared. Scared of making mistakes and scared of challenging DBs.
    This is the kind of post from you that I just honestly don't understand. You are so open minded about new coaches, new ideas and the belief that there has to be innovation in football, that your posts don't normally carry such pessimism. Have you considered that there might be an issue that is something other than fear? Why did Rudolph throw into tight windows when returning from his being benched?

    Have you looked at the Matt Canada video in the thread Shoes started? Its a great video to learn about the mechanics of QB play and a good starting point to use it and analyze Rudolph's weaknesses that lead to lack of production. I'm not attacking you, but honestly just bit confused of how you can be so optimistic of college coaches and college schemes being productive in the NFL, but so assertive of how a QB with such little experience can't improve.

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    This is the kind of post from you that I just honestly don't understand. You are so open minded about new coaches, new ideas and the belief that there has to be innovation in football, that your posts don't normally carry such pessimism. Have you considered that there might be an issue that is something other than fear? Why did Rudolph throw into tight windows when returning from his being benched?

    Have you looked at the Matt Canada video in the thread Shoes started? Its a great video to learn about the mechanics of QB play and a good starting point to use it and analyze Rudolph's weaknesses that lead to lack of production. I'm not attacking you, but honestly just bit confused of how you can be so optimistic of college coaches and college schemes being productive in the NFL, but so assertive of how a QB with such little experience can't improve.
    Because my source of optimism about coaches is centered around scheme and innovation that put players in positions to succeed. Say something along the lines of what we saw in both championship games on offense this past weekend.

    My source of pessimism on Rudolph is that it doesn't matter what schematic position or scenario he is put in until he gets over the mental hurdles in his own head. It isn't that I don't think he can improve; it is that I think the first steps for improvement is totally psychological and on Rudolph to accomplish. Maybe that Jets game was the first glimmer of that. I don't know and, honestly, no one does.

    I realize that Rudolph and Hodges have technique issues, as I am sure Ben does as well. You can always get better at your craft. So good for the team in getting them a coach/counselor. But I am remain convinced that Rudolph's biggest problems are not technique, understanding the offense, or even raw ability -- they stem from his fear of making mistakes. If the QB that flashed in the Jets game is what Rudolph's mentality looks like going forward, then there is something that a coach can work with.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: TE is a QB's Best Friend??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post

    I realize that Rudolph and Hodges have technique issues, as I am sure Ben does as well. You can always get better at your craft. So good for the team in getting them a coach/counselor. But I am remain convinced that Rudolph's biggest problems are not technique, understanding the offense, or even raw ability -- they stem from his fear of making mistakes. If the QB that flashed in the Jets game is what Rudolph's mentality looks like going forward, then there is something that a coach can work with.
    Do you think that fear of making mistakes comes from pressure of the situation? Just the nature of competing in a results based environment and when he makes one mistake, he feels the pressure not to make another?

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