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Thread: Not A QB Problem But WR

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    Not A QB Problem But WR

    Steelers lack a 2 WR, what they thought Monty would have been. Johnson will be there but just not this year. Nobody is steeping up as the 2 and reliable week in and out!

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Washington caught all his targets for 69 yards

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    People keep acting like that the Steelers Receivers are top tier and the Mason is just "not pulling the trigger" downfield. That is true (The safety), and I respond who on the Steelers is the go-to guy. Our Receivers are merely average and do not make plays downfield consistently. Our #1 guy alligator arms a pass that causes a turnover.

    Imagine how Ben would've fared in 2004 and in his early years without HOF'er Hines to rely on. Mason can only do so much when he doesn't have "the guy" to throw to.

    We have a quarterback with spotty mechanics and a group of wholly average receivers.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Ok. I am not saying I disagree with you all on this. And not saying I agree. But I don't believe we get to have it both ways.

    Reliance on "star players" that "demand the ball no matter what" and "force the QB to make bad decisions to appease them" was a bad thing. In fact, many argued that it was a season sinking type of thing.

    Lack of star players stagnating the offense because the QB has no one to throw the ball too is also bad. Many are arguing that it is a season sinking type of thing.

    At some point, we have to pick a side and stick to it. Either an offense needs a "go-to" WR and all the good and bad that goes with that or it doesn't.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Goodell View Post
    Washington caught all his targets for 69 yards
    And some of them where way behind him. That CLEARLY was a QB problem.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Washington has a "average separation percentage" of 2.4 yards, DJ had a 3.4 percentage.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/r...age-separation

    Rudolph has not been seeing them nor throwing good enough passes.
    1. Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia 2. Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia 3. Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan 3. ​Renardo Green, CB, FSU 4. Mo Kamara, OLB, Colorado State 6. Logan Lee, DT, Iowa 6.Khristian Boyd, NT, Northern Iowa

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAndGold View Post
    Washington has a "average separation percentage" of 2.4 yards, DJ had a 3.4 percentage.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/r...age-separation

    Rudolph has not been seeing them nor throwing good enough passes.
    Vance McDonald 4.6, use the TE!

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAndGold View Post
    Washington has a "average separation percentage" of 2.4 yards, DJ had a 3.4 percentage.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/r...age-separation

    Rudolph has not been seeing them nor throwing good enough passes.
    Is that out on all routes run, or only the ones they were thrown to? If it is the first, holy smokes -- guys are very open. If it is the latter, then Rudolph is only pulling the trigger when guys are staggeringly open.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Is that out on all routes run, or only the ones they were thrown to? If it is the first, holy smokes -- guys are very open. If it is the latter, then Rudolph is only pulling the trigger when guys are staggeringly open.
    I have been looking this up because I was wondering also, and I just found it on the website posted(I have no idea how I kept missing this).

    Average Separation (SEP)
    The distance (in yards) measured between a WR/TE and the nearest defender at the time of catch or incompletion.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/glossary
    1. Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia 2. Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia 3. Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan 3. ​Renardo Green, CB, FSU 4. Mo Kamara, OLB, Colorado State 6. Logan Lee, DT, Iowa 6.Khristian Boyd, NT, Northern Iowa

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAndGold View Post
    I have been looking this up because I was wondering also, and I just found it on the website posted(I have no idea how I kept missing this).

    Average Separation (SEP)
    The distance (in yards) measured between a WR/TE and the nearest defender at the time of catch or incompletion.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/glossary
    Hmmmm. So I read that as Mason Rudolph only throws to receivers if they have between 2.5 and 4.5 yards of separation from the nearest defender.

    I mean wouldn't that shoot the theory that the offensive system doesn't get guys open out of the water? Also, a quick look sees to indicate that 2.5 or so is about what the big name #1 guys get.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Hmmmm. So I read that as Mason Rudolph only throws to receivers if they have between 2.5 and 4.5 yards of separation from the nearest defender.

    I mean wouldn't that shoot the theory that the offensive system doesn't get guys open out of the water? Also, a quick look sees to indicate that 2.5 or so is about what the big name #1 guys get.
    I've never been big on advanced stats and believe they don't tell the whole story but I ran by this the other day, It's something I'll be paying attention to. Would like to see this stat tracked live somehow(maybe it can?).
    1. Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia 2. Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia 3. Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan 3. ​Renardo Green, CB, FSU 4. Mo Kamara, OLB, Colorado State 6. Logan Lee, DT, Iowa 6.Khristian Boyd, NT, Northern Iowa

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAndGold View Post
    I've never been big on advanced stats and believe they don't tell the whole story but I ran by this the other day, It's something I'll be paying attention to. Would like to see this stat tracked live somehow(maybe it can?).
    Agreed. Like any other tool, advanced stats are only useful when used properly and to accomplish the often limited task they were designed for.

    I think they do help to immediately provided context and comparisons for what we see on Sundays.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Ok. I am not saying I disagree with you all on this. And not saying I agree. But I don't believe we get to have it both ways.

    Reliance on "star players" that "demand the ball no matter what" and "force the QB to make bad decisions to appease them" was a bad thing. In fact, many argued that it was a season sinking type of thing.

    Lack of star players stagnating the offense because the QB has no one to throw the ball too is also bad. Many are arguing that it is a season sinking type of thing.

    At some point, we have to pick a side and stick to it. Either an offense needs a "go-to" WR and all the good and bad that goes with that or it doesn't.
    BS. You can have a great WR without having a crying for the ball super star. Ward is a prime example. Reliable .

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
    Merry Christmas

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Hmmmm. So I read that as Mason Rudolph only throws to receivers if they have between 2.5 and 4.5 yards of separation from the nearest defender.

    I mean wouldn't that shoot the theory that the offensive system doesn't get guys open out of the water? Also, a quick look sees to indicate that 2.5 or so is about what the big name #1 guys get.


    What it shows is that guys are NFL open on a regular basis, and they aren't getting the ball. I'm not saying this to crush Rudolph. I'm just saying that if guys are routinely that open....they have open receivers all over the field and that can't be used as an excuse for the quarterback not throwing the ball down the field more. I'm certainly willing to give Rudolph more time to develop, and I certainly don't know for certain what coaching limitations have been put on his game or on his reads.

    Clearly, there are people to throw the ball to. I have been trying to see down the field whenever I get an opportunity to do so with replays or different camera angles, and many times I am seeing guys not just a little open, but wide open that still don't get the ball thrown to them. That doesn't mean that guys are constantly running wide open all game. It also doesn't mean that Rudolph will never be able to do that, because all quarterbacks miss wide open receivers when they are going through progressions.

    I think those stats just say what many of us have been saying. That Rudolph just isn't seeing the field well, and that he seems hesitant to throw the ball down the field.

    He's young and inexperienced. Let's hope he continues to get better and at some point the light comes on for him and he has the confidence to optimize his ability to play the game an attack all parts of the field.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    I don't think he's looking downfield late enough in his reads to see the receivers getting open. I can see this from his head turns in the all-22 I watched the other day.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Well it's not saying much but I'd take him over Mayfield or Trubisky lol

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAndGold View Post
    Washington has a "average separation percentage" of 2.4 yards, DJ had a 3.4 percentage.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/r...age-separation

    Rudolph has not been seeing them nor throwing good enough passes.

    ^^^ This. Washington can make a fantastic play or two, but he's just not consistent enough to be the #2. Johnson has show to be very good at running routes and getting separation in his cuts. He would look better with a QB who has a big arm, like Ben to deliver the football with velocity and accuracy to take advantage of his skill set.


    Rudolph has pretty much transformed Ju-ju from Superman to Clark Kent. When Ben was out, Brown wasn't special either. The problem to me is clear. I would however like a taller speed receiver who can catch the football.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Diontae Johnson is open a lot.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    He's young and inexperienced. Let's hope he continues to get better and at some point the light comes on for him and he has the confidence to optimize his ability to play the game an attack all parts of the field.
    Assume what we see now is what we get from Mason for 2019 and that Ben plays out his contract through 2021. Which would mean the bulk of Rudolph's starts (I presume if Ben returns for two more years he will miss a few games both seasons) will come from this season.

    Would Mason merit a new contract when his rookie deal runs out in 2021?

    Mark Kaboly of The Athletic (paywalled) says the Steelers are all in on Mason.

    I think the Steelers are all in with Rudolph after the Roethlisberger era ends, and he should get better sitting behind Big Ben for a year or two.

    https://theathletic.com/1359866/2019...r-leveon-bell/

    I am not surprised that is the party line Kaboly is hearing but I do not see it unless the standard is raised in the next 8 games regardless of whether Fichtner is holding Mason back because he does not trust him to do more or Mason constantly dumping off is his decision.

    Hopefully the lack of marked improvement so far is due in large part to time lost after getting knocked out of the Ravens game

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    Assume what we see now is what we get from Mason for 2019 and that Ben plays out his contract through 2021. Which would mean the bulk of Rudolph's starts (I presume if Ben returns for two more years he will miss a few games both seasons) will come from this season.

    Would Mason merit a new contract when his rookie deal runs out in 2021?

    Mark Kaboly of The Athletic (paywalled) says the Steelers are all in on Mason.

    I think the Steelers are all in with Rudolph after the Roethlisberger era ends, and he should get better sitting behind Big Ben for a year or two.

    https://theathletic.com/1359866/2019...r-leveon-bell/

    I am not surprised that is the party line Kaboly is hearing but I do not see it unless the standard is raised in the next 8 games regardless of whether Fichtner is holding Mason back because he does not trust him to do more or Mason constantly dumping off is his decision.

    It's obvious they want Mason to be the answer. I don't think he has shown everyone that he is that guy yet.

    The good news is that they do get to see a lot more from him in practices, the film room, preseason games, scrimmages, and so on. I believe he needs to take a pretty good leap from what we are seeing now to make everyone think he can be the answer moving forward. There really isn't any need to rush the decision. We all want to know and we all want to see more, but only time can determine what he will ultimately be.

    I am not convinced yet, and I don't think the team is convinced yet. I think the odds are that they are going to sign him no matter what. He won't get a huge deal, but it would probably be smart for the team to sign him to a new deal before he hits free agency. He can then have a year as the starter, and the team can then decide if he is going to be the man, or he is going to help groom the next man.

    Of course, all of this is based on Big Ben coming back and playing for two more years. Who knows how all of this works out. Ben may come back and have a fresh arm, and be the healthiest he has been in a while, play great, and both he and the team wants him to play more. He may also come back and just have injury after injury if his body has started to break down, and Rudolph gets extended playing time and the team will know for certain what his ceiling is.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Rudolph has pretty much transformed Ju-ju from Superman to Clark Kent. When Ben was out, Brown wasn't special either. The problem to me is clear. I would however like a taller speed receiver who can catch the football.
    Juju lets the corner box him to the sideline, can't make a tough catch, and causes a turnover, and Rudolph is the problem? I think it is Juju deciding to be Clark Kent than Superman.

    Going back to last year (Bengals Game Week 17 in particular), Juju (and Ben by extension) wasn't special without Brown. The bad trends we saw against the Bengals continued against the Patriots and the Seahawks. I think Antonio Brown really masked and covered up for the deficiencies for the Offense in general, and even then, he couldn't hide it for long.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    Juju lets the corner box him to the sideline, can't make a tough catch, and causes a turnover, and Rudolph is the problem? I think it is Juju deciding to be Clark Kent than Superman.

    Going back to last year (Bengals Game Week 17 in particular), Juju (and Ben by extension) wasn't special without Brown. The bad trends we saw against the Bengals continued against the Patriots and the Seahawks. I think Antonio Brown really masked and covered up for the deficiencies for the Offense in general, and even then, he couldn't hide it for long.

    JuJu is working his ass off to get open, much of the time against double teams...and the ball isn't thrown to him. Can JuJu play better? I think so. But stop making these claims when you don't know what you're talking about. Rudolph isn't throwing to anyone down the field very often. JuJu didn't forget how to play football. I'm seeing players open down field. They aren't getting the ball from the quarterback,

    Ben has 15 years of football to show what he can do without Brown. Another silly, completely false statement by you. JuJu was only in his second season and was thrust into the role because Brown quit on the team. I'm so sorry that the wide receiver that has had as much success as anybody has ever had in the history of the NFL at his age is such a disappointment to you.

    Brown didn't do anything without Ben throwing him the ball in games. Stop creating this false narrative about everything you discuss. Brown was and is a great player, but he didn't have much of an impact on the field for the first several years of his career. He didn't become AB until he was in the league for several years and was older than JuJu is now. You also have to know that JuJu doesn't have a player like himself on the opposite side of him. Of course, you would already know that if you knew what you were talking about and didn't ignore facts that don't match the agenda you are pushing.

    A receiver can't do anything unless the quarterback gets him the ball. Now, when Rudolph does get the ball to him, he needs to catch the ball and make plays on some balls that aren't perfect. He has done some of that, but JuJu has not come through on a few plays. It is now up to Rudolph to start finding open players down the field and delivering the ball accurately with more regularity.

    Rudolph is going to get better. Not everyone here is saying he sucks. He's inexperienced. Now we all have to hope that the game starts coming to him more and more. Everything else, including the play of the receivers and tight ends, will take care of itself. I'm hoping Rudolph gets there, and I think everyone else here feels the same way.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    More proof today. This is probably a much more comfortable win if they hold on to a few of those drops.

    Hate to say it, but they're really missing AB's hands of glue.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    More proof today. This is probably a much more comfortable win if they hold on to a few of those drops.

    Hate to say it, but they're really missing AB's hands of glue.
    And Darryl Drake's coaching. Cant forget that either.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    4 drops today, also a fumble by Washington after he made a big catch and run.
    1. Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia 2. Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia 3. Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan 3. ​Renardo Green, CB, FSU 4. Mo Kamara, OLB, Colorado State 6. Logan Lee, DT, Iowa 6.Khristian Boyd, NT, Northern Iowa

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAndGold View Post
    4 drops today, also a fumble by Washington after he made a big catch and run.
    Only 4? Seemed like a lot more.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    we lack a "killer instinct" "clutch" playmaker at the receiving position. The WR/TEs look timid at some times. Washington, Johnson, and even JUJU seem to clam up in the must need clutch moments.

    JUJU is terrific. But he lacks the clutchness to be considereda bonifide 1.

    I heard Dez Bryantis looking to come back, we should kick the tires on him.

    conner has the "killer instinct" but cant stay healthy becsuse his body beating running style.

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    Only 4? Seemed like a lot more.
    Agreed but that was the stat shown on the TV. Thought I saw 5(Vannet in quarter 1?)
    1. Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia 2. Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia 3. Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan 3. ​Renardo Green, CB, FSU 4. Mo Kamara, OLB, Colorado State 6. Logan Lee, DT, Iowa 6.Khristian Boyd, NT, Northern Iowa

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAndGold View Post
    Agreed but that was the stat shown on the TV. Thought I saw 5(Vannet in quarter 1?)
    Had to be more then 4 and don’t forget McDonald’s fumble. That receiving corp as a whole just isn’t fundamentally sound right now.

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    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Not A QB Problem But WR

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Had to be more then 4 and don’t forget McDonald’s fumble. That receiving corp as a whole just isn’t fundamentally sound right now.
    Life of having a group of young players. Life was more easy for young WR's when the Steelers had the best WR receiver in the NFL taking all of the coverage. They'll get there, but it'll take some more time.
    1. Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia 2. Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia 3. Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan 3. ​Renardo Green, CB, FSU 4. Mo Kamara, OLB, Colorado State 6. Logan Lee, DT, Iowa 6.Khristian Boyd, NT, Northern Iowa

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