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Thread: Bud Dupree

  1. #31
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    Re: Bud Dupree

    It has taken the Steelers several years and sifting through draft busts and projects like Jarvis Jones, Artie Burns, and Sean Davis to finally build a competent playmaking Defense. We’ve all seen what happens when the Steelers are stuck with a Defense that cannot get the job done. Now the Steelers appear to finally have one, and they are all fairly young.

    This isn’t a 2012-13 situation where the Defense was old and declining while Ben was relatively young and coming into his prime. The Steelers Offense likely isn’t going to return to the level it once was with an declining, aging Ben coming off a bad elbow and staring at Rudolph/Hodges at quarterback for the near future. AB ain’t coming back, and neither is Bell. Having a good Defense gives the Steelers a chance to compete.

    I’m of the opinion that the D needs to be kept together as much as possible. Letting Dupree walk and leaving the OLB spot open to another project isn’t a good idea. I don't know about you, but I'm not interested in re-living the years of Ross Cockrell, Antwon Blake, and Mike Mitchell celebrating a tackle after giving up a 30 yard completion.
    Last edited by Edman; 11-06-2019 at 09:43 PM.

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    Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    So ignore the name and the draft position. Fast forward to this off-season. You need an OLB.

    You can have one of the following:
    1. An unproven and untested pass rusher from the MAC in his 3rd season with little to no exposure to starting in the NFL.
    2. A second round draft pick OLB.
    3. Anthony Chickillo for $6 million dollars or whatever.
    4. An undersized OLB from an FBS school.
    5. A 27 year old OLB that is coming off a season where he played excellent run defense, was decent defending space, and finally appeared to put his pass rush game together and had 10 sacks.
    6. One of the players from this list: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-age...de-linebacker/

    As much as I might not like it, #5 is the "best" option for ensuring a floor of acceptable play at my vacant OLB position. Unless I wanted to try and pry Clowney out of Seattle or bet that Shaq Barrett finally "broke out" and it is more "real" than the other same age player that also "broke out" -- what else does a team do?

    Maybe swallow hard and bet that you pull a gem in the 3rd or 4th round of the draft? Like catch a prospect that is falling similar to how Lawson did a few years ago and cobble together a rotation on the other side of Watt? I am hesitant to do that, because I saw GB waste years of Matthews' prime by running out failed prospect after failed prospect on the other side.

    I don't really want to pay Dupree a ton of money. Especially if it means losing out on Hargrave, Foster, Finney, and any potential improvements at other positions from the outside. But if I consider that pass rush from the OLBs is the entire point of this defense...it is hard to envision it getting better with the other options I can come up with.

    I dunno. Maybe Dupree likes playing here enough that he takes like $10 million and calls it a day. Doubt it.
    Even without clicking on the player list, I’m taking selection 5 or 6. 1-4 is a waste of time for me...

    I take 5 IF it doesn’t keep me from signing other players that I may want to keep or sign as a free agent. In other words, I’m not overpaying based on what I have seen via his whole portfolio.


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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    In five years ... Isn't that a problem in itself?
    Oh, absolutely.

    As Bill Parcells once stated: “A player’s most important ability is avail-ability.


    Kendrell Bell was a great pick... until his health went south. JJ Watt is a HOF player... who’s had three of his seasons end with him on the IR. Heck, coming out of college, Senquez Golson was the best slot corner in that draft class... but, injuries kept him from ever playing.

    SUMMATION:
    One has to take Bud’s health into consideration. Is he over the hump? Are his best years ahead of him (like James Farrior)?... or, will he re-aggregate that shoulder??? What we do know: it’s not a matter of Bud not having the talent nor the will.

  4. #34
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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I think it is an option. But I believe the Franchise would be $15+ million of a cap hit in 2019. If you look at what the Packers put together for Z. Smith - https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/green-ba...s-smith-16848/ - a multi-year deal allows you to play more funny games with when cash hits your cap sheet.

    For instance, Smith only counts $7.25 million on the 2019 cap. Then some big jumps. IF the Steelers could do something like that, maybe the can squeeze Dupree AND Heyward into the small ($20 million or so) cap space they have in 2020 and then push the big dollars into 2021 and beyond where they have $96+ million in cap space.

    But this stuff makes my head hurt and I am not always sure I understand it properly. However, it seems there is a way to sign both Heyward and Dupree -- they just have to delay the (big) cash for one cap year...
    Not certain the Steelers are willing to sink big $$$$ into the OLB position by signing Dupree in 2020 and then doing it again with TJ Watt (who the Steelers absolutely are going to keep) prior to the last year of Watt’s rookie deal in 2021.

    Steelers made the right decision by not extending Dupree prior to this season but matching what Dupree will get from someone willing to overspend to fill one of the most important positions in today’s NFL and then backing up the money truck again for Watt is a lot of salary cap chips to put into the OLB slots

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Oh, absolutely.

    As Bill Parcells once stated: “A player’s most important ability is avail-ability.


    Kendrell Bell was a great pick... until his health went south. JJ Watt is a HOF player... who’s had three of his seasons end with him on the IR. Heck, coming out of college, Senquez Golson was the best slot corner in that draft class... but, injuries kept him from ever playing.

    SUMMATION:
    One has to take Bud’s health into consideration. Is he over the hump? Are his best years ahead of him (like James Farrior)?... or, will he re-aggregate that shoulder??? What we do know: it’s not a matter of Bud not having the talent nor the will.
    Another Parcell’s “rule” is drafting is all about the QB. Draft your QB, the guys to protect the QB, and the guys that sack the QB. Bud already plays good run defense. If he becomes a pass rush force opposite Watt why not re-sign both guys this offseason?

  6. #36
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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Another Parcell’s “rule” is drafting is all about the QB. Draft your QB, the guys to protect the QB, and the guys that sack the QB. Bud already plays good run defense. If he becomes a pass rush force opposite Watt why not re-sign both guys this offseason?
    I don't know how firm Parcells was with that "rule". He drafted OT Jake Long #1 in the draft and passed on Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco. Sure they had 32 year old Chad Pennington on the roster but that 2008 draft was definitely not all about the QB for Parcells.

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    Not certain the Steelers are willing to sink big $$$$ into the OLB position by signing Dupree in 2020 and then doing it again with TJ Watt (who the Steelers absolutely are going to keep) prior to the last year of Watt’s rookie deal in 2021.

    Steelers made the right decision by not extending Dupree prior to this season but matching what Dupree will get from someone willing to overspend to fill one of the most important positions in today’s NFL and then backing up the money truck again for Watt is a lot of salary cap chips to put into the OLB slots
    I agree with your point and what was mentioned earlier is that you can only have so many big $$$ contracts on the cap sheet at the same time. I guess I am just kinda wildly speculating that there are ways to do some funny math so that you can have like 10 big dollar average value contracts but stagger when they actually get paid out so that only like 7 of them are on any given yearly cap sheet.

    I am by no means saying that it should or will be done, just that it could. I played around with some of the math last night on sights like over the cap and there is way to sign both Hargrave and Dupree in 2020 and then Watt, Conner, Juju etc. BUT...that means guys like Haden, Foster, Pouncey, Heyward, Ben R. come off the books around 2022 or so.

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I don't know how firm Parcells was with that "rule". He drafted OT Jake Long #1 in the draft and passed on Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco. Sure they had 32 year old Chad Pennington on the roster but that 2008 draft was definitely not all about the QB for Parcells.
    Would that not be one of the “guys to protect the QB”?

  9. #39

    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Remember how we had that big cap crunch in like 2011-12-13 where we started every offseason like $20 million over the cap? That's why that happened. Backloaded contracts and restructures out the butt, so we could keep the 2004-08 era team together for a couple more years.

    I don't think we want to do that again, certainly not for this group of players who still have a way to go before they're competing for championships.

    So yes, it is possible, in the same way you can max out your credit card and then keep doing balance transfers to new cards, until those are all full too and you're left eating ramen and drinking King Cobra for three years. The only reason our team wasnt completely gutted during that stretch is because we whiffed on two entire draft classes in 2008-09 and didn't even try to re-sign any of those players when their rookie deals ended. But of course, that left us with other problems.

    Long story short, you can play around with cap dollars in all kinds of ways, and we already do it a lot ... but we've been burned before, and Dupree isn't worth it.
    Small quibble, but that's "how" it happened, not why. You noted why in the end of your first paragraph. I only say that because I think the clarification lends itself to an even stronger point in your argument: this isn't two-superbowl winning line-up. So, I doubt very much we'll see anything of the sort happen with backloaded contracts.
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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    Small quibble, but that's "how" it happened, not why. You noted why in the end of your first paragraph. I only say that because I think the clarification lends itself to an even stronger point in your argument: this isn't two-superbowl winning line-up. So, I doubt very much we'll see anything of the sort happen with backloaded contracts.
    Yeah, that's what I meant in the second paragraph, although that might not have been clear. You play with cap numbers when you are trying to keep your window open, not trying to GET your window open.

    Essentially it is saying "We are at our peak, and are willing to sacrifice a couple years of the future for a couple more years of NOW." This team isn't a championship-caliber team now, so we don't want that.

    If money is a consideration, it's hard to see where Dupree fits into the picture of adding to the team to make it into a championship contender, given that he is right in the "reverse sweet spot" of premium price for not-premium production, because of the position he plays. Any path to a championship probably involves letting go of Dupree, as well as some other things like cycling Pouncey and DeCastro out with younger replacements who can hopefully play at a similar level. We'll also have to decide things like ... whether Juju is really the difference-maker who's worth the $14M or so the market will demand, or whether he could be replaced adequately like Sanders. Same thing with Conner and Samuels, although the price might not be so dramatic.

    It's easy to default to Dupree because the answer to "What else do we do instead" is not ready-made and obvious, it's a question mark. That's just the nature of it, though. Ready-made obvious answers cost you $12 million or $15 million. The system forces you to take chances like this. And honestly, I cannot think of too many cases where the chance has had so many arguments in favor of it over the known quantity.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Would that not be one of the “guys to protect the QB”?
    Yes, Parcells always believed in building a team from the inside-out....that being, you get your linemen first and then the skill guys like QB's, WR's, CB's, RB's, OLB, etc. I guess in 08 he felt he didn't have linemen to run the ball and protect the QB, even if he just had a mediocre QB.

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Oh, absolutely.

    As Bill Parcells once stated: “A player’s most important ability is avail-ability.


    Kendrell Bell was a great pick... until his health went south. JJ Watt is a HOF player... who’s had three of his seasons end with him on the IR. Heck, coming out of college, Senquez Golson was the best slot corner in that draft class... but, injuries kept him from ever playing.

    SUMMATION:
    One has to take Bud’s health into consideration. Is he over the hump? Are his best years ahead of him (like James Farrior)?... or, will he re-aggregate that shoulder??? What we do know: it’s not a matter of Bud not having the talent nor the will.
    Did ya really have to mention Sanquez Golson? And I was about to eat my lunch ...

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by Squeegee Thompson View Post
    Did ya really have to mention Sanquez Golson? And I was about to eat my lunch ...
    vomit inducing pick by the doghumper kevin colbert

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    gonna be a one year wonder, who knows maybe even a half season wonder. no thanks

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by JayC View Post
    gonna be a one year wonder, who knows maybe even a half season wonder. no thanks
    Hmm. So, that's it? You know for a fact he's going to be a one-year wonder? His shoulder injuries he's healed from finally, the coaches rescheming his position towards his tool set, nothing like that matters?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Yes, Parcells always believed in building a team from the inside-out....that being, you get your linemen first and then the skill guys like QB's, WR's, CB's, RB's, OLB, etc. I guess in 08 he felt he didn't have linemen to run the ball and protect the QB, even if he just had a mediocre QB.
    It's funny. I've often thought about what I would do if I woke up tomorrow and found out a new NFL team was awarded to a city and somehow, I owned it. My conclusion? Journeyman QB, journeyman WRs, spend my upper draft picks on lineman and the defense.
    “Life is a series of decisions you make that add up to your reputation. Do the right thing.”
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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Another Parcell’s “rule” is drafting is all about the QB. Draft your QB, the guys to protect the QB, and the guys that sack the QB. Bud already plays good run defense. If he becomes a pass rush force opposite Watt why not re-sign both guys this offseason?
    Indeed

    Get the QB
    Protect the QB
    Pass-rush the QB

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I don't know how firm Parcells was with that "rule". He drafted OT Jake Long #1 in the draft and passed on Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco. Sure they had 32 year old Chad Pennington on the roster but that 2008 draft was definitely not all about the QB for Parcells.
    That would be the second part of his mantra:

    Get the QB
    Protect the QB
    Pass-rush the QB

    Was it the better choice than drafting Matty Ice? No Was it the better choice than drafting Joe Flacco? Maybe. Was it a gamble worth taking in thinking that next year you might still end up high enough to draft Matthew Stafford? Probably

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    This looks like one of three possible scenarios ranking them from making him look best to worst

    1. He can play when healthy he apparently just can't stay healthy more than once every 5 seasons
    2. He's nothing more than a no. 2, a sidekick, Robin to TJ Watt's batman, someone who needs a great supporting cast around him to take away attention and free up opportunities
    3. Like I said earlier, he's dancing the Haynesworth shuffle

    Neither are reflective of someone who is worth an expensive long term contract in the offseason.

  19. #49

    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    This looks like one of three possible scenarios ranking them from making him look best to worst

    1. He can play when healthy he apparently just can't stay healthy more than once every 5 seasons
    2. He's nothing more than a no. 2, a sidekick, Robin to TJ Watt's batman, someone who needs a great supporting cast around him to take away attention and free up opportunities
    3. Like I said earlier, he's dancing the Haynesworth shuffle

    Neither are reflective of someone who is worth an expensive long term contract in the offseason.
    You forgot one, and I'm amazed at how many people are forgetting this, too.

    4. The defensive scheming has changed and is now using him in his strengths rather than trying to make him play in his weaknesses. They did that by flipping him to the other side last year and then making the scheme less regimented this year, according to Dupree. In other words, they're giving players the chance to make plays. And, it's working.

    Oh, and there's a fifth.

    5. Dupree has finally learned that he can't just depend on talent. He has to study film and be a student of the game. This one is actually being noticed by his teemmates, like Watt who has gone on record.
    He's translated potential into production by relying on more than just his physical gifts. The 6-foot-4, 270-pound Dupree has become a dedicated student of the game.''I think he's just become a lot smarter of a player as far as film study,'' Watt said. ''We're bouncing a lot more notes off each other this year than we ever had (on) what we're seeing out there, certain tells that we know what certain plays are, if it's run or if it's pass. The guy's get off the ball is incredible and that's what allows him to beat a lot of guys off the edge.''
    Dupree is winning those battles even when opponents send two or three bodies at him. That's what the Indianapolis Colts did last Sunday on a critical play in the waning moments. The Colts faced third-and-1 at the Pittsburgh 22. A first down and Indianapolis could run the clock down to zero and attempt a short field goal to steal the victory. Dupree recognized the formation instantly and dropped Indianapolis running back Marlon Mack for a 3-yard loss. A chip shot for Adam Vinatieri became something significantly harder. And when his 43-yarder sailed well left of the uprights, the Steelers survived .
    A year ago, maybe Dupree doesn't instantly diagnose the play. Maybe he's a split-second late. Maybe the Colts get the first down. Maybe Vinatieri makes the kick and Pittsburgh's playoff hopes are effectively squashed. They're not thanks in part to Dupree, who is delivering on defensive coordinator Keith Butler's prediction during training camp that Dupree was ready to live up to the expectations that come when you play outside linebacker in Pittsburgh.
    https://sports.yahoo.com/buds-bounce...7420--nfl.html
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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    This looks like one of three possible scenarios ranking them from making him look best to worst

    1. He can play when healthy he apparently just can't stay healthy more than once every 5 seasons
    2. He's nothing more than a no. 2, a sidekick, Robin to TJ Watt's batman, someone who needs a great supporting cast around him to take away attention and free up opportunities
    3. Like I said earlier, he's dancing the Haynesworth shuffle

    Neither are reflective of someone who is worth an expensive long term contract in the offseason.
    It doesn't have to be just one, it could be all three of those together.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    You forgot one, and I'm amazed at how many people are forgetting this, too.

    4. The defensive scheming has changed and is now using him in his strengths rather than trying to make him play in his weaknesses. They did that by flipping him to the other side last year and then making the scheme less regimented this year, according to Dupree. In other words, they're giving players the chance to make plays. And, it's working.

    Oh, and there's a fifth.

    5. Dupree has finally learned that he can't just depend on talent. He has to study film and be a student of the game. This one is actually being noticed by his teemmates, like Watt who has gone on record.
    https://sports.yahoo.com/buds-bounce...7420--nfl.html


    Good post.

    I guess I understand why fans can be jaded and not trust his play to continue. What I can't understand is completely ignoring that he has finally figured out how to be a pro and that he is fully healthy and playing in the right spot on the field.

    Larry Fitzgerald has said as much about himself. He was relying on his physical talents in the early part of his career. Then he figured out the mental side of the game, how to train to maximize his abilities, more film study to help him understand what teams were trying to do to him to stop him, and things like that. Then his career exploded.

    I don't have a crystal ball, but people can't just consider the bad scenarios. The very good scenarios are also in play and this just might be the start of some great play for many years to come.

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    So, it only took 5 years for Bud to realize he needed to be a student of the game to reach his potential.
    What a coincidence! It’s his contract year.
    He deserves credit for his play this season, no doubt, but the timing of his improved play raises questions.
    Money is a great motivator. When he gets it, does the “old Bud” return?

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by FrancoLambert View Post
    So, it only took 5 years for Bud to realize he needed to be a student of the game to reach his potential.
    What a coincidence! It’s his contract year.
    He deserves credit for his play this season, no doubt, but the timing of his improved play raises questions.
    Money is a great motivator. When he gets it, does the “old Bud” return?

    Those are legitimate questions. It certainly needs to be a consideration.

    One thing is for sure...the people in that locker room know better than anyone the effort he has put into his game the last 5 years. If he was working hard but just didn't get it or was basically injured, then it makes sense.

    If he didn't work hard, put little time into improving, used injuries as an excuse, or didn't practice hard....don't do it.

    They took the 5th year option, so I lean towards them believing in his talent and effort, but want to see him stay healthy and put it together on the field for a full season.

    I guess we'll see.

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    You forgot one, and I'm amazed at how many people are forgetting this, too.

    4. The defensive scheming has changed and is now using him in his strengths rather than trying to make him play in his weaknesses. They did that by flipping him to the other side last year and then making the scheme less regimented this year, according to Dupree. In other words, they're giving players the chance to make plays. And, it's working.

    Oh, and there's a fifth.

    5. Dupree has finally learned that he can't just depend on talent. He has to study film and be a student of the game. This one is actually being noticed by his teemmates, like Watt who has gone on record.
    https://sports.yahoo.com/buds-bounce...7420--nfl.html
    Excellent points.

    I think we should give credit where credit is due in how the coaches figured out how to get maximum efficiency from both Bud and TJ.

    And the truth is, at this point I don’t really care how long it took Bud mentally for things to click. They’ve now clicked. He’s doing all the right things, and he is NOT going to regress if we keep him.

    But one thing I do think is possible is that if he signs with another team, he might not be as effective as he is with us, because there’s a chance they might not understand how to play to his strengths.

    It reminds me a little of when James Harrison signed with the Bengals. I just knew he would not be as valuable to them in their system as he was to us.

    But Bud isn’t lazy. He’s not becoming a student of the game for a paycheck. From everything I’ve read about him he really does want to be the best he can be.

    I’m not sure if we can afford him, knowing we have to also sign Watt soon, but I really am not worried about him regressing if we do.

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    I don't get the hate for it taking a long time for a player to become good.

    If we assume (I know...I know...) the Bud Dupree breakout is real and spectacular, why should we care how long it took? Dude still has a 3-4 year prime in front of him.

    Farrior took a long time to break out too. But I guess because he did it on another team, it is fine?

    Melvin Ingram took 4-5 years to "breakout" as well. If, at the start of this season, someone told you that you could have Ingram opposite Watt, what would your response have been?

    Nah. He took too long to breakout?

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    Re: Bud Dupree

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I don't get the hate for it taking a long time for a player to become good.

    If we assume (I know...I know...) the Bud Dupree breakout is real and spectacular, why should we care how long it took? Dude still has a 3-4 year prime in front of him.

    Farrior took a long time to break out too. But I guess because he did it on another team, it is fine?

    Melvin Ingram took 4-5 years to "breakout" as well. If, at the start of this season, someone told you that you could have Ingram opposite Watt, what would your response have been?

    Nah. He took too long to breakout?
    And remember a guy named James Harrison? I do believe it took him a few years to be good enough to even make a team. And once it clicked for him, I don’t remember him getting worse after signing a nice contract.

    Yes, I absolutely realize that expectation is different for a first round pick, and I get that it was very disappointing that Bud didn’t play up to his draft status sooner (and it’s possible that health played into it). But none of that matters going forward. Now he’s good. He’s not going to forget how to be good now that he’s finally gotten there. He’s only going to keep getting better... at least he will if he stays in our system.

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