Don't Blame Randy Fichtner

[86WARD]

I rewatched some of the Miami and Indy games. I think it’s clear that Rudolph is being coached to do what he is doing. I think they are telling him to look to one route and if it’s not there, hit the checkdown route. You can see plays where Rudolph looks toward one route, sees it’s not there then just scans the field quickly, making the defense hesitate a bit and immediately hits the checkdown. He’s definitely not going through a full progression. He’s being coached to do what he’s doing...which is common with younger QBs.

So there may be routes open downfield but those may not be the routes that Rudolph is being told to throw to. His primary read may be covered and again, he’s not being coached to hit those other reads.

My theory on why we saw Hodges slinging it a little more was that he took more chances on that first read. Why? Cause he’s got a lot less to lose than Rudolph roster-wise. Duck wasn’t on a team a couple months ago so he’s just making the best of the chance he has...similar to Rudolph in the preseason...no pressure.

[Mojouw]

I rewatched some of the Miami and Indy games. I think it’s clear that Rudolph is being coached to do what he is doing. I think they are telling him to look to one route and if it’s not there, hit the checkdown route. You can see plays where Rudolph looks toward one route, sees it’s not there then just scans the field quickly, making the defense hesitate a bit and immediately hits the checkdown. He’s definitely not going through a full progression. He’s being coached to do what he’s doing...which is common with younger QBs.

So there may be routes open downfield but those may not be the routes that Rudolph is being told to throw to. His primary read may be covered and again, he’s not being coached to hit those other reads.

My theory on why we saw Hodges slinging it a little more was that he took more chances on that first read. Why? Cause he’s got a lot less to lose than Rudolph roster-wise. Duck wasn’t on a team a couple months ago so he’s just making the best of the chance he has...similar to Rudolph in the preseason...no pressure.

I dunno. These moving pictures look like a hesitant QB afraid of challenging a defense:

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...-room-nfl-news

[pczach]

I rewatched some of the Miami and Indy games. I think it’s clear that Rudolph is being coached to do what he is doing. I think they are telling him to look to one route and if it’s not there, hit the checkdown route. You can see plays where Rudolph looks toward one route, sees it’s not there then just scans the field quickly, making the defense hesitate a bit and immediately hits the checkdown. He’s definitely not going through a full progression. He’s being coached to do what he’s doing...which is common with younger QBs.

So there may be routes open downfield but those may not be the routes that Rudolph is being told to throw to. His primary read may be covered and again, he’s not being coached to hit those other reads.

My theory on why we saw Hodges slinging it a little more was that he took more chances on that first read. Why? Cause he’s got a lot less to lose than Rudolph roster-wise. Duck wasn’t on a team a couple months ago so he’s just making the best of the chance he has...similar to Rudolph in the preseason...no pressure.

If that were true, there would never be a need to scramble, get sacked, or hold onto the ball for any reason.

[Mojouw]

I don't think this is any secret at this time, but my stance is that right now Mason Rudolph is one of the worst quarterbacks in the NFL. Duck Hodges is even worse than that. The only times that Rudolph looks competent is coming into the game and out of the half. Guess what, those are the drives that offenses can run scripted plays. QB is told, you are going to see exactly this and then you will do exactly that and it will work like this over here. When he has to process reads and coverages on his own, he locks up and retreats to the check-down throw. That is barely a competent NFL offense. If the defense was not regularly providing them with shortened fields, the Steelers would struggle to score 10 points.

Is that to say Rudolph is hopeless? Of course not, that would be extreme and foolish. But he has a long long way to go. I certainly hope that the Steelers are successful in 2019 and Rudolph progresses each week. But I think the undercurrent that this is somehow going to end up as a team challenging for a division and then making a noisy playoff run as a wildcard is comical. I hate to be Debbie Downer, but what happens when the Steelers run into a team that doesn't turn the ball over? What happens when they play the Ravens again with Jimmy Smith, Earl Thomas, Marlon Humphrey, and Marcus Peters patrolling the secondary? Does anyone seriously believe that an offense featuring 2-4 yard hits to the RB and draw plays is going to be enough?

I'm going to watch every game until the bitter end and will entering each week hoping for a win. But, I think the this is on the coaches and Mason Rudolph or maybe Devlin Hodges is a pretty decent QB stuff has to get reined in a bit. Can they be? Who knows. Are they in Week 10 of the 2019 NFL season? Absolutely not.

[86WARD]

If that were true, there would never be a need to scramble, get sacked, or hold onto the ball for any reason.

He doesn’t scramble, he doesn’t get sacked and he hits the check down in a reasonable amount of time. Some times there’s hesitation but at the same time, he’s still learning.

[86WARD]

I dunno. These moving pictures look like a hesitant QB afraid of challenging a defense:

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...-room-nfl-news

That still really only shows he’s looking at one read. I think he’s definitely hesitant whether he should throw to the one read or look for the safe checkdown.

I still think they are limiting him to simplify this whole thing for him.

[DesertSteel]

I rewatched some of the Miami and Indy games. I think it’s clear that Rudolph is being coached to do what he is doing. I think they are telling him to look to one route and if it’s not there, hit the checkdown route. You can see plays where Rudolph looks toward one route, sees it’s not there then just scans the field quickly, making the defense hesitate a bit and immediately hits the checkdown.

100% agree. Same thing I see.

[NCSteeler]

I don’t know if it’s him or his coaching'
,but I do know they aren’t going to win many games playing the current offense.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[pczach]

He doesn’t scramble, he doesn’t get sacked and he hits the check down in a reasonable amount of time. Some times there’s hesitation but at the same time, he’s still learning.

He got knocked unconscious scrambling to extend the play.

If he only had a single read and then checked down, he would never get touched, he would never get sacked, he would never fumble.

Again, I'm not crushing him. I'm commenting on what's happening. I'm a defender of him and I still think he will get better and that he has potential for more growth. But what I'm not going to do is pretend he's perfect to try to protect him. I'm simply describing what I believe are areas of his game he needs to improve, and giving reasons why I think that based on what I see when I watch him play.

[86WARD]

He got knocked unconscious scrambling to extend the play.

If he only had a single read and then checked down, he would never get touched, he would never get sacked, he would never fumble.

Again, I'm not crushing him. I'm commenting on what's happening. I'm a defender of him and I still think he will get better and that he has potential for more growth. But what I'm not going to do is pretend he's perfect to try to protect him. I'm simply describing what I believe are areas of his game he needs to improve, and giving reasons why I think that based on what I see when I watch him play.

I’d have to go back and rewatch earlier too which I don’t have access to. Maybe it was different before the concussion. These last couple games, only a few times has he moved out of the pocket...I mean he hangs in there until it’s obstructing his throwing motion...

I’ll agree, he has a lot to work on and frankly, I’m beginning to think he’s not the answer and not even close to the answer for when Ben retires. We could probably make a pretty solid list on his problems. At the same time, I feel like he’s doing what the coaches are asking him to do...and maybe he’s just the kind of guy who when told to do something, he sticks to what he’s told to do?

[pczach]

I’d have to go back and rewatch earlier too which I don’t have access to. Maybe it was different before the concussion. These last couple games, only a few times has he moved out of the pocket...I mean he hangs in there until it's obstructing his throwing motion...

I’ll agree, he has a lot to work on and frankly, I’m beginning to think he’s not the answer and not even close to the answer for when Ben retires. We could probably make a pretty solid list on his problems. At the same time, I feel like he’s doing what the coaches are asking him to do...and maybe he’s just the kind of guy who when told to do something, he sticks to what he’s told to do?

What you say that I highlighted in bold in your first paragraph answers the question about whether he is coached to just look at one read and if it's not there...check down. If he only has a quick read, he wouldn't need to be standing in the pocket for 4 seconds and have the pocket collapse around him. That is simply how football works. If he does only have one read like some are suggesting and he still holds onto the ball as long as he does...then he is clearly doesn't process information quickly, is limited, and is not the answer. That scenario is as simplistic as it gets for a quarterback. That is why I commented above that he should never get touched, never get sacked, and he wouldn't have 3 fumbles. The ball should come out far too quickly to get to him in the pocket. The fans that are saying it is on the coaches telling him not to throw it down the field and limiting his progressions don't seem to understand how quarterbacking works. If he holds the ball for more than a quick look, he doesn't only have one read.

Can coaches limit some of his reads, particularly in specific situations? Sure. Even great quarterbacks play situational football sometimes. What they won't do and aren't doing is coaching him to not look down the field or go through progressions because that is the job description. He needs to be able to do that or he can't be a good NFL quarterback. Why would they have the heir apparent in the game and not groom him to do starting quarterback things? It wouldn't make sense.

Do you know what I mean?

[DesertSteel]

All I know is that I want to see some real progress from Rudy on Sunday. I’m still optimistic, unlike some who thinks he’s nothing more than a backup. He hasn’t failed yet. He hasn’t tried. Whether that’s him or Fichtner no one here knows for sure. But what I do know is that he needs to take the next step in his progression.

[Six Rings]

I am mad as most of you about waiving the white flag during our last possession against the Colts, but I have to disagree with those who believe Fichtner is a liability.

Fitchtner did not game plan for Samuels to set an all-time record for RB receptions this afternoon. Rudolph was clearly going through his progressions and checking down the majority of those plays. The proverbial "Fitchtner conservative offense" could attributed to WR's not gaining separation or Rudolph simply making the correct reads. I think Rudolph did a fantastic job moving the chains, not forcing the ball, and making the throws that counted today; especially to his former teammate. That's as much as you can ask for a QB's 5th career start.

Bottom line, Fitchtner has put Rudolph and our offense in the position to wins games. This team is a few fumbles and a bogus roughing the passer call away from being 7-1.

Randy's offense and play-calling were fine last year. Sorry Steeler fans, if it isn't evident by now that Rudolph is a back up, it will be once the turnovers stop coming in vs. a .500 or better team.


Rudloph has beaten two terrible teams ( Miami and Cincinnati ) , and the Colts. We beat the Colts thanks to a pick-six, and a stupid penalty that put the Steelers in field goal range at the end of the first half, and the Colt's dinosaur kicker missing the game-winning field goal. You just can not count on that stuff to win, week in and week out.


I read that the majority of Rudlpph's passes travel 5 yard or less. With the passes throw beyond 6 yards, he's completing but 42%. You just can't score enough points with your quarterback likely to miss on 3rd down and 6 yards or more.


Playing it safe at quarterback, being a game manager can work if your defense is playing lights out and producing turnovers ( We are +11 ) and you have a clutch kicker vs. the bad to mediocre teams.


Assuming we are playing an average to good team, and we aren't on the plus side of the turnovers...I think Rudolph will be exposed and start throwing interceptions. He lacks the arm to hit open windows down the field, which is why he's not throwing these types of passes. To complicate matters, his accuracy to hit a moving target is below average, and he's fumble prone in the pocket. Yes, he can throw a good deep ball, but it a floating type of pass, which means some of them are 50.50.


I played and coached some. By no means am I Dick Lebeau, but defenses are going to catch up on our passes to the backs sooner or later. If I was the opposing defensive coordinating, I'd bump Samules at the line, then where is he going to throw it? Exactly. He's not challenging bump and run or single coverage. He's not hitting many slants routes either. Last game Ju-Ju and Johnson, our starting receivers had less than 35 combined yards receiving. Essentially our starting wide receivers are a 2nd or 3rd option for the passing game these days.

[Six Rings]

I rewatched some of the Miami and Indy games. I think it’s clear that Rudolph is being coached to do what he is doing. I think they are telling him to look to one route and if it’s not there, hit the checkdown route. You can see plays where Rudolph looks toward one route, sees it’s not there then just scans the field quickly, making the defense hesitate a bit and immediately hits the checkdown. He’s definitely not going through a full progression. He’s being coached to do what he’s doing...which is common with younger QBs.

So there may be routes open downfield but those may not be the routes that Rudolph is being told to throw to. His primary read may be covered and again, he’s not being coached to hit those other reads.

My theory on why we saw Hodges slinging it a little more was that he took more chances on that first read. Why? Cause he’s got a lot less to lose than Rudolph roster-wise. Duck wasn’t on a team a couple months ago so he’s just making the best of the chance he has...similar to Rudolph in the preseason...no pressure.

You can ask any OC or head coach, and they will tell you they aren't sure where the ball is going on a pass play. It's up to the QB to find the open man and sling it. I see Rookies and 2nd-year players throwing it all over the field. Of course, they have better arms and mobility, every one of them, which is a reason why they can do it. Its not the coaching. Its the player


Hodges sees the field much better. I'm not saying he's the answer, but I am saying he's more likely to give his receivers a chance for yardage.


This isn't the big 12. NFL DB's close much faster on the ball, and I think the windows and separation his receivers were able to get in the Big 12 just aren't there in the NFL. In the NFL you need accuracy beyond 5 yards and ball velocity to hit guys on the move who are open by just a yard or two. Rudolph doesn't have this. His football arrives a tick later, which means you're flirting with an interception, and deeps outs or square in's are stuff he's not going to throw. The Big 12 is a QB friendly, poor defensive conference in college football. A reason I thought Baker Mayfield was overrated, yet he was picked #1 overall. How's that working now?

[86WARD]

What you say that I highlighted in bold in your first paragraph answers the question about whether he is coached to just look at one read and if it's not there...check down. If he only has a quick read, he wouldn't need to be standing in the pocket for 4 seconds and have the pocket collapse around him. That is simply how football works. If he does only have one read like some are suggesting and he still holds onto the ball as long as he does...then he is clearly doesn't process information quickly, is limited, and is not the answer. That scenario is as simplistic as it gets for a quarterback. That is why I commented above that he should never get touched, never get sacked, and he wouldn't have 3 fumbles. The ball should come out far too quickly to get to him in the pocket. The fans that are saying it is on the coaches telling him not to throw it down the field and limiting his progressions don't seem to understand how quarterbacking works. If he holds the ball for more than a quick look, he doesn't only have one read.

Can coaches limit some of his reads, particularly in specific situations? Sure. Even great quarterbacks play situational football sometimes. What they won't do and aren't doing is coaching him to not look down the field or go through progressions because that is the job description. He needs to be able to do that or he can't be a good NFL quarterback. Why would they have the heir apparent in the game and not groom him to do starting quarterback things? It wouldn't make sense.

Do you know what I mean?

I do get what your saying. But I think to your point about the hesitation, that’s why the pocket is collapsing around him because he is watching that one read and hoping it comes open and then taking the checkdown. I really don’t think there is a full sense of progression going through his head.

I’m also still not convinced that the offense has changed any to cater to Rudolph.

[86WARD]

You can ask any OC or head coach, and they will tell you they aren't sure where the ball is going on a pass play.

#

That’s not true. Plays are schemed to get specific players open on specific plays all the time. I know this from playing myself. Some plays are designed to throw it to certain players and the coaches know exactly where the ball should go. Is it every play? No of course not. But there’s a good amount and f plays that are designed for one player.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

That’s not true. Plays are schemed to get specific players open on specific plays all the time. I know this from playing myself. Some plays are designed to throw it to certain players and the coaches know exactly where the ball should go. Is it every play? No of course not. But there’s a good amount and f plays that are designed for one player.

I agree that you know where the primary target is for the pass and as a coach I can tell where the ball is going if the QB makes the correct read and the route is advantageous to the coverage given. I don't agree that plays are designed for one player, but there is a primary read on most.

The highest level I have coached is only highschool, but I can honestly say that over 50% of the pass plays that the OC calls, I can see pre snap who has the best matchup and where the football should go. The number would be higher if I was coaching WR's as a position group, but if I am coaching O line, D-line, LB, DB's, etc then I am not that focused on the route combinations.

[Born2Steel]

Plays are designed to go to a specific player at a specific spot all the time. Many teams actually script their first drive or 15 or so plays even. There are also plays designed to tell if a defense or player is in zone or man and depending on that read the ball goes to a specific player and spot. Rhythm offense/timing routes live and die on these very schemes.

[Six Rings]

That’s not true. Plays are schemed to get specific players open on specific plays all the time. I know this from playing myself. Some plays are designed to throw it to certain players and the coaches know exactly where the ball should go. Is it every play? No of course not. But there’s a good amount and f plays that are designed for one player.

Yes it is true, and I've heard NFL coaches say it.

You can have a primary target, but what if he isn't open, or the QB doesn't see him open? Hence coaches cant be for sure where the ball if going on a pass play, maybe its it's a dump off or shovel pass okay they know where it is going. I doubt the Steeler coaches are telling Rudolph not to throw is 5 yards or more down the field unless maybe if we are up by two scores after in a game.

[DesertSteel]

It's easy to criticize Rudy and say he doesn't have the ability because if he shows otherwise you just get on the "I'm glad I was wrong" pedestal. Let it be known, I'm saying he has what it takes and if I'm wrong I'm just eating crow.

[Craic]

It's easy to criticize Rudy and say he doesn't have the ability because if he shows otherwise you just get on the "I'm glad I was wrong" pedestal. Let it be known, I'm saying he has what it takes and if I'm wrong I'm just eating crow.

True. But I really don't see the consistent arm strength that he needs to be successive in the NFL. When he steps into his passes and his mechanics are solid, then yes, it gets him over the hump. But that consistency just isn't there yet. That's going to be the make or break for him right there. If he can't get a consistent passing velocity as a baseline that he can then adjust when necessary, he also won't be consistent throwing through windows to his receivers.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Yes it is true, and I've heard NFL coaches say it.

You can have a primary target, but what if he isn't open, or the QB doesn't see him open? Hence coaches cant be for sure where the ball if going on a pass play, maybe its it's a dump off or shovel pass okay they know where it is going. I doubt the Steeler coaches are telling Rudolph not to throw is 5 yards or more down the field unless maybe if we are up by two scores after in a game.

EXACTLY ! Thank you for understanding and articulating this point.

Just because a play may have a primary target, it doesn't mean that if the first player isn't open, that the QB aborts the play and checks down.

If an offense went 11 personell (1TE and 1RB), Twin WR left, TE right and ran a route combination of 1-8-3-7, then the QB would read the coverage on the left side and if man and single high safety, then he would look at the 8 on the left side first, but if not open then likely would miss the 1 on the left side and next read should be the TE on a 3 coming across and finally the 7 or throw it away.

If he reads cover 3 zone, then likely the 1 is the first read and if the CB is cover 3 and follows the slant of the 1, then the 8 could be open next and the 3rd read is the 3. Its not as simple as saying "I want to throw the 1 to JuJu from the X position and that is it on the play."

[DesertSteel]

True. But I really don't see the consistent arm strength that he needs to be successive in the NFL. When he steps into his passes and his mechanics are solid, then yes, it gets him over the hump. But that consistency just isn't there yet. That's going to be the make or break for him right there. If he can't get a consistent passing velocity as a baseline that he can then adjust when necessary, he also won't be consistent throwing through windows to his receivers.

Yes I've read all the articulations on this board of why he doesn't have it. I've also heard many analysts (paid ones) say he can make all the throws. Time will prove whether he is a starting NFL QB or not.

[pczach]

EXACTLY ! Thank you for understanding and articulating this point.

Just because a play may have a primary target, it doesn't mean that if the first player isn't open, that the QB aborts the play and checks down.

If an offense went 11 personell (1TE and 1RB), Twin WR left, TE right and ran a route combination of 1-8-3-7, then the QB would read the coverage on the left side and if man and single high safety, then he would look at the 8 on the left side first, but if not open then likely would miss the 1 on the left side and next read should be the TE on a 3 coming across and finally the 7 or throw it away.

If he reads cover 3 zone, then likely the 1 is the first read and if the CB is cover 3 and follows the slant of the 1, then the 8 could be open next and the 3rd read is the 3. Its not as simple as saying "I want to throw the 1 to JuJu from the X position and that is it on the play."

I agree. This is the part I have been trying to get people to understand.

On every play, there are multiple routes built into each play. Every pass pattern of that particular play is a live pass pattern that should expect to get the ball. There is a progression the quarterback is going to go through on every play, with the primary read being the first read, the second, third, fourth, etc... When quarterback's clock in their head or the pass rush tells them they need to get the ball out of their hand, they check down or throw the ball away.

The defense dictates where you go with the football. The primary read on the play doesn't mean that the quarterback has to throw the ball there. It is up to the quarterback to read the defense pre-snap, then recognize what his best matchups are against the defense on that play, and then be able to still react to safeties moving before or at the snap, and disguised looks that reveal themselves after the snap. At that point it is up to the quarterback to get the ball to the target with the best matchup or is open. If no down the field options are open, hit the check down, or throw it away.

It sounds so simple, but there are so many variables in play on nearly every snap that it is hard to articulate it if you haven't played the game. There is a reason why there are only a handful of men on the planet at any one time that are able to do it at an elite level.

The bottom line is that there is no NFL quarterback that only has one primary read and if it's not there, checks down. That is something you can do in situational football, but as a rule, the quarterback's job is to utilize the entire route tree that is built into every single play based on what he sees on the defensive side.

I am a Mason Rudolph fan. I want him to succeed, and I still believe he will continue to improve and become a more aggressive quarterback. But I can't just ignore what I know to be true from a football standpoint to defend Rudolph. This is not coaches stopping him from throwing the ball down the field. People just need to understand that and stop blaming coaches. These claims of coaches not wanting him to throw the ball down the field are imaginary.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I agree. This is the part I have been trying to get people to understand.

On every play, there are multiple routes built into each play. Every pass pattern of that particular play is a live pass pattern that should expect to get the ball. There is a progression the quarterback is going to go through on every play, with the primary read being the first read, the second, third, fourth, etc... When quarterback's clock in their head or the pass rush tells them they need to get the ball out of their hand, they check down or throw the ball away.

The defense dictates where you go with the football. The primary read on the play doesn't mean that the quarterback has to throw the ball there. It is up to the quarterback to read the defense pre-snap, then recognize what his best matchups are against the defense on that play, and then be able to still react to safeties moving before or at the snap, and disguised looks that reveal themselves after the snap. At that point it is up to the quarterback to get the ball to the target with the best matchup or is open. If no down the field options are open, hit the check down, or throw it away.

It sounds so simple, but there are so many variables in play on nearly every snap that it is hard to articulate it if you haven't played the game. There is a reason why there are only a handful of men on the planet at any one time that are able to do it at an elite level.

The bottom line is that there is no NFL quarterback that only has one primary read and if it's not there, checks down. That is something you can do in situational football, but as a rule, the quarterback's job is to utilize the entire route tree that is built into every single play based on what he sees on the defensive side.

I am a Mason Rudolph fan. I want him to succeed, and I still believe he will continue to improve and become a more aggressive quarterback. But I can't just ignore what I know to be true from a football standpoint to defend Rudolph. This is not coaches stopping him from throwing the ball down the field. People just need to understand that and stop blaming coaches. These claims of coaches not wanting him to throw the ball down the field are imaginary.

I agree with your bolded statement. No passing play in the NFL, other than a screen, is designed for one read and throw it away.

I do believe that coaches and coordinators can influence young QB's to be very conservative and not push the ball into potential spots, which can give them a conservative mindset.

[teegre]

It boils down to this:
Is Rudolph choosing to dump it off?... or, is he being told to dump it off???

[86WARD]

Yes it is true, and I've heard NFL coaches say it.

You can have a primary target, but what if he isn't open, or the QB doesn't see him open? Hence coaches cant be for sure where the ball if going on a pass play, maybe its it's a dump off or shovel pass okay they know where it is going. I doubt the Steeler coaches are telling Rudolph not to throw is 5 yards or more down the field unless maybe if we are up by two scores after in a game.

Lol. On certain plays it’s absolutely true.

[86WARD]

It boils down to this:
Is Rudolph choosing to dump it off?... or, is he being told to dump it off???

There were a couple/few plays that were Samuels was the very first read and that’s where he went. They definitely weren’t check-down plays. Today he did a very good job of getting the ball down the field and was doing it with very little hesitation.

Fichtner still had some questionable plays but gave the offense a lot of opportunity to make plays as well.

[teegre]

That run play by Vance McDonald on 2nd-&-20... WTF!?!

Here’s how bad that play was: I was explaining the game to my 8-year-old daughter, and she says, “Why was that guy running the ball???”

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

That run play by Vance McDonald on 2nd-&-20... WTF!?!

Here’s how bad that play was: I was explaining the game to my 8-year-old daughter, and she says, “Why was that guy running the ball???”

What about 1st and 10 on your own 5 and you draw up the same Arians play action, 7 step drop with your back to the rush passing play that Ben threw an INT against the Packers in the Super Bowl?!?!?!?!?!? At least it was only a safety.

The 4th down play was gutsy and the right call, but not sure if the play design calls for the TE and RB to be in the same pattern or if it was wrongly executed. You never want to put 2 receivers in the exact same zone. I'm hoping Vannett ran it to shallow and that isn't the way Fichtner drew it up.