Don't get me started on John Kuhn, if we kept him, we would have won 10 super bowls by now.
Don't get me started on John Kuhn, if we kept him, we would have won 10 super bowls by now.
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Don't get carried away. We wouldn't have won anything more than nine.Originally Posted by Fire Goodell
Steelers fans in 2004:
Cowher sux. He hasn’t done anything since all of Noll’s players (Woodson, Dawson) retired. Cowherball is the stupidest thing ever.
Steelers fans in 2019:
Cowher’s tears cure cancer; unfortunately, Cowher never cries. Cowherball is the answer to everything that ails you.
Speaking of the dong sack and XLIII...
I was banned from StillMill’s site right after that win. How dare I celebrate that “victory”. Apparently, I hadn’t watched closely enough, because according to StillMill, I should have been angry (instead of happy). My joy enfuriated him... and he banned me.
Didn’t Hines Ward have a dong reception to get to 1000?
Not sure about the 2019 assessment. I get the vibe that a lot of Steeler fans blame him for not having won more Lombardi's. I honestly enjoyed the physicality of those Steeler teams and am amazed that he got to so many playoff games with the likes of Kent Graham, Kordell, O'Donnell, Tomczak, Maddox at the helm. Its the epitome of making Chicken Salad out of Chicken $hit. IMO.
Okay, but he bought the chicken shit ingredients before tossing that chicken salad. If you decide not to draft a good QB, are you really a hero for ALMOST having championship caliber teams with no QB?
It might be an unpopular opinion, but I think O'Donnell was good (not great). He would have had a good career had he stayed in Pittsburgh, he ruined his career by signing with the Jets
Kordell was fun to watch, honestly should have gotten us to the SB in 2001. Special teams shit the bed vs the pats allowing 2 punt returns for TD's. Kordell was good at times, but really lacked consistency. Had some good years and some downright horrible ones. Could have been a hall of famer if he stayed at his 'slash' position, his athletic ability was world class. It's possible he could have been a better QB if there was any consistency at OC. It seemed early in his career there was a change to the offensive coordinator trying to implement a different type of offense every time.
O'Donnell was the only Steelers QB outside of Ben and Bradshaw to advance to a Super Bowl. You can't take that away from him.
O'Donnell's greatest sin wasn't Super Bowl XXX, it was when he bolted for the money after the fact that made him the eternal pariah. If O'Donnell took his lumps to stay with the team after the Super Bowl, he would've been much more beloved, instead of becoming a dirty curse word.
Kordell had talent but was very unpolished, and he needed a steady and stable offense around him so he could grow. Letting Yancy Thigpen walk after 1997 was a critical mistake. Chan Gailey leaving was another death blow. The Ray Sherman disaster was even worse. I don't care how good you are, when you have a roulette wheel of coordinators each and every year, you're not going to succeed. Ask Marcus Mariota about having a new offense to learn every year did for him. Kordell should've stayed "Slash", but he could've been Slash and a lot more.
As much as we hated Bruce Arians, He did a great job making Ben comfortable and helping him develop after Whisenhunt.
OK, who was making the decisions to draft or not draft a good QB? Was Tom Donahoe the GM during most of Cowher's tenure and was he just a figurehead, or did Donahoe handle player personnel?
Regardless of whether Donahoe was leading the draft process or not. Who were the great QB's the Steelers were going to select in the drafts when they were drafting in the #20-30 range? Some of the best names that were available on the board when the Steeler card was up to pick were:
-Billy Jo Hobert
-Todd Collins
-Tony Banks
-Jim Druckenmiller
-Charlie Batch
-Shaun King
-Chad Pennington
-Drew Brees
-Patrick Ramsey
So, with the exception of Drew Brees, there were not a lot of great QB's in the top 20 available when they drafted. Yes, they missed on the Quincy Carters, Heath Schuler, Trent Dilfer, Rick Mirer, Drew Bledsoe, Akili Smith, Tim Couch, Andre Ware's because they didn't draft high enough. Short of scouring the Hyvee looking for Kurt Warner and drafting Tom Brady in the 6th round. I don't think there were many good QB's to be found when they drafted.
O Donnell benefitted from what in Pittsburgh? A strong Defense and a run game behind a solid O line. And that is what lots of fans like to complain about. Franchise QB's don't grow on trees, so they build contending teams out of 2nd tier QBs' and when the Jets needed a QB in Free Agency, they offered O'Donnell franchise QB money to be their franchise QB, but they didn't have the supporting Defense and Linemen around him in order to be successful.
Lots of fans like to complain that the Steelers management and coaching didn't go get a franchise QB, but they never offer any solutions of who the QB's were they were supposed to get. Other than some grand plan of trading up to the #1 pick to take a QB, when without the benefit of hindsight, that QB was gonna be Jamarcus Russell, Tim Couch, Akili Smith or Heath Schuler.
Like I said, The 90's were a total crapshoot in regards to QB talent. Especially in the Draft. Only Drew Bledsoe and Peyton Manning were the only "Franchise" guys who turned out to be anything worthwhile, and the former ended up a journeyman. Brett Favre wasn't even a first round QB, and was exiled to Green Bay before becoming anything. The majority of upper echelon of QB talent back then were mostly holdovers from the 80's (Montana, Marino, Elway).O Donnell benefitted from what in Pittsburgh? A strong Defense and a run game behind a solid O line. And that is what lots of fans like to complain about. Franchise QB's don't grow on trees, so they build contending teams out of 2nd tier QBs' and when the Jets needed a QB in Free Agency, they offered O'Donnell franchise QB money to be their franchise QB, but they didn't have the supporting Defense and Linemen around him in order to be successful.
Lots of fans like to complain that the Steelers management and coaching didn't go get a franchise QB, but they never offer any solutions of who the QB's were they were supposed to get. Other than some grand plan of trading up to the #1 pick to take a QB, when without the benefit of hindsight, that QB was gonna be Jamarcus Russell, Tim Couch, Akili Smith or Heath Schuler.
David Klinger, Andre Ware, Rick Mirer, Heath Schuler, Ryan Leaf, Jim Druckenmiller, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown were among the many "first round" quarterbacks in the 90's who busted in the NFL. These guy weren't even average. They were completely forgettable. They just could not play in the NFL.
Good Quarterbacks were rare, Great quarterbacks were lightning in a bottle. Colleges didn't produce them well, either. There was nowhere you could go without rolling the dice. It was only until up to just about a few years ago, where the Quarterback position was given much more respect and care. Now it seems every team now has a Quarterback on their roster who has NFL caliber talent, or at least you confidently say you can win with and develop.
This thread no longer has anything whatsoever to do with Bud.
Just goes to show how hated he is around here.This thread no longer has anything whatsoever to do with Bud.
In a doomed to fail attempt to yank this sucker back on topic -- https://steelersdepot.com/2019/10/wa...g-improvement/
Nice video breakdown that shows 3 contrasting examples of "bad" Dupree versus "good" Dupree.
Long story short, it concludes that Dupree is going to make a dump truck full of money this off-season.
I also wonder if "not Joey Porter" being coach has had a bit of a positive impact? Even acknowledging the contract year stuff, someone finally got through to Dupree about developing a pass rush plan besides run really fast...Butler maybe?
Don't forget, that even when we finally did land a franchise QB, it wasn't Steelers management and coaching that made that happen. It was the ownership that pulled that trigger. Cowher was dead set on taking Shawn Andrews with the #11 pick in 2004, and I'm pretty sure Colbert was in agreement. If it wasn't for Dan Rooney pulling rank and mandating they take some kid from a no-name school in Ohio, the Big Ben era would've happened in Buffalo.O Donnell benefitted from what in Pittsburgh? A strong Defense and a run game behind a solid O line. And that is what lots of fans like to complain about. Franchise QB's don't grow on trees, so they build contending teams out of 2nd tier QBs' and when the Jets needed a QB in Free Agency, they offered O'Donnell franchise QB money to be their franchise QB, but they didn't have the supporting Defense and Linemen around him in order to be successful.
Lots of fans like to complain that the Steelers management and coaching didn't go get a franchise QB, but they never offer any solutions of who the QB's were they were supposed to get. Other than some grand plan of trading up to the #1 pick to take a QB, when without the benefit of hindsight, that QB was gonna be Jamarcus Russell, Tim Couch, Akili Smith or Heath Schuler.
As much as I think Dupree is better than most give him credit for and its nice to see that he is finally making some progress with his hand fighting and technique. The 3 plays shown in that video are vs 1. Trent Scott of the Chargers, an undrafted FA, 2. Andre Smith of the Bengals, who is a major bust and was playing due to injury and 3. Duane Brown, a pro bowl LT that he got one push-pull move on in the video, but otherwise had 0 sacks, 1 QB hit that entire game vs the Seahawks.
So in the 3 videos, Dupree beat 2 scrubs and got 1 Pro Bowl LT off balance, but otherwise managed only one QB hit that entire game. I would have liked to see Dupree give the 34 year old Duane Brown more issues than one single QB hit before we start anointing him significantly improved. At this point I think he is good, but substandard to what is needed at the OLB position. Really hoping the Steelers can find a OLB in the 2020 draft.
It will be interesting to see how they handle Dupree and Hargraves contracts. Who do they re-sign? I don't see them losing both.
1. Graham Barton, C, Duke 2. Ricky Pearsall, WR, Florida 3. Blake Fisher, OT, Notre Dame 3. Max Melton, CB, Rutgers 4. Jeremiah Trotter, ILB, Clemson 6. Khristian Boyd, DT, Northern Iowa 6. MJ Devonshire, CB, Pittsburgh
Those are really important points. Do you happen to have Watt's stats in the same games? Would be interesting to contrast the two.
While I am not really arguing that Dupree is great or anything, I do think he is wildly undervalued by Steelers fans. It isn't so much that he is a significantly better player than most fans perceive him to be, it is the exact player he is is FAR more valued across the NFL than Steelers' fans seem to think.
What I am trying to say is that Steelers fans would be beyond mad if the team signed Dupree for $10-12 million per year. A great swath of the league's GMs would be thinking they got a decent deal if they signed Dupree to a FA contract at that price point.
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If they let Dupree walk, look for some of the same people that have been crushing him since he became a Steeler to rag on his successor.
The next guy may be accused of being lazy, having no work ethic, sucking beyond comprehension, etc...... Particularly if they are a high draft pick or expensive free agent.
Listening to people here bitch and accuse players of things they literally have no knowledge of is priceless.
Watt had one sack off a T-E stunt and one hit in that game. I seem to recall Tuitt being a monster that game and TJ was really active, but Dupree was OK.
I know you are not saying he is great. I just think many wont actually look at the video link that you posted and just conclude that he is going to "make a dump truck full of money" because you say so. When IMO the video shows him getting over on 2 scrubs and the only thing he did against Brown was catch him off balance once. IMO, the title of that Steelersdepot article is much more impressive than the video.
Here is Watt's sack on Wilson. Look on the other side at what Dupree does vs Brown. https://www.steelers.com/video/highl...-on-third-down He just gets stopped and then spins back into Brown so he can get blocked more easily. Bud honestly could get a $5-6 million contract and it would be fine, but somebody is likely gonna offer him $8-12 million a year and he isn't worth that kind of cap hit.
That is what makes this discussion so hard. Fans and many people who are paid to think/write/talk about football can make a well supported argument that Dupree is not worth $8-12 million per year. And in a totally objective valuation, they would be correct. But in the wacky world of NFL free agency, Dupree is "worth" far more.
It only takes one NFL GM to look at Dupree and say that he is getting a 27 year old edge rusher who has finally started putting his pass rush game together while being a solid or better run defender. Plus he provides "scheme flexibility" in that he plays in space with more fluidity than a great percentage of OLBs, particularly those that hit free agency younger than 30. A GM does that, and it is pretty easy to arrive at a "market value" just below the $16 million tier that the Packers gave both the Smiths last off-season. That is why I strongly believe that Dupree is going to get a dump truck of money if he hits the open market.
Remember Shaq Barrett got $4 million in free agency and he had worse #'s and tape than Dupree.
I agree with you. It only takes one GM to think Dupree and his talents are on the rise. Just like it only takes one draftnik or GM to think Artie Burns is a first round CB because he had 5 INT's his Junior year at Miami and ran a 4.4. I personally find both amusing, because they don't look like it to me and I think I will be proven correct with Dupree as well.
IMO, Bud is an OK OLB, but he isn't on par with what the Steelers are used to around here. He isn't Porter, Harrison, Gildon, Lloyd, Woodley type production. Heck, I don't even think he has proven himself to be above Clark Haggans production. IMO he is hovering around the Jasom Worlidong line and that isn't a great place to be.
Precisely. So let's hope it's one of the other 31 GMs and not ours.
Saying Dupree is "worth" more because of the free agent market is just another way of saying he will be overpaid. In no way is that to our advantage - in fact, it will be a problem for whoever signs him. We can completely avoid that and let it be somebody else's problem. Absolutely we should let him hit the open market and go away, and then we can easily replace his relatively low impact in any number of ways that do not cost us $12M a season. A mid-round draft pick and an Arthur Moats level signing (when he first came to the team, not when he left) should just about cover it; one of them at least will fill that miniscule void.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Overpaid or not, I think that the Steelers will be dealing with a significant defict in play and production at the OLB position next year. Ola isn't ready nor does he seem as capable in space. Bargain shopping the FA market is how you get the Mark Barron, Mike Mitchell, and Donte Moncrief's of the world.
Remember that everything that the Steelers fanbase was and is saying about Bud Dupree is similar to what the Chiefs said about Steve Nelson -- without the 1st round pick stuff.
While I do agree and think that parting ways with Dupree is the correct and sensible move for the 2020 Pittsburgh Steelers; I also argue that the team will be noticeably worse for an off-season or two while they find a replacement.
I am starting to believe that edge rushers are the opposite of QBs...if you don't have 2, you have none.
I think you are right about most of that stuff, only question is how big the drop-off will be - which is largely a question of how good one thinks Dupree is now. (That is the part where you and I have very different opinions, of course.)
I don't think Ola, or Skipper, or anyone on the roster now is ready to be a kick-ass NFL starter any time soon. So if people are basing their idea that Dupree isn't worth it on one of those guys turning out to be a star, they are going to be sorely disappointed. What I do think is that Dupree still isn't very good, so even if Ola or someone else is not very good either, we won't suffer that much.
I think DB is the position that's most like you said - if you have one bad one, he drags down the entire unit (OL is kind of like that too).
OLB seems more like - you need ONE guy who can legit create plays on his own, and the other guy just needs to be ok. In fact, as long as he doesn't suck so badly that you can basically ignore him, having the playmaker on the opposite side will help the ok player out a lot.
Of course, the true playmakers are REALLY rare, like almost as rare as quarterbacks. We've had maybe three in the last 20 years - Porter, Harrison, and Watt. But what happens a lot is that the "other" OLB who is helped out by the playmaker will be mistaken for a playmaker himself because he has like 8 or 9 sacks, and that's where you get the big disappointing Woodley contracts for guys who turn out not to be able to create anything on their own. And also a lot of big-contract disappointments because some GM took a gamble on a guy he hopes will grow into a playmaker based on a little "potential", but that's dumb because you have no better odds of that than with any other player of average skill, which is to say not a whole lot.
See you Space Cowboy ...
I saw an infographic on Twitter that had TJ Watt high up... and surprisingly, Robert Quinn as the top-top.
What was frustrating was that Shaq Barrett was waaay up there (higher than even Watt). Why does this bug me? Joey Porter coached Barrett at Colorado St. I assumed that Barrett was a lock to be a Steeler. Instead, we wasted a bunch of picks crap... and, Barrett went undrafted.
At the time, the though was that the Steelers has the “inside track” on signing Barrett as a URFA, because of his ties to Joey Porter. Nope. Instead, we cut three of those four late-round draft picks after their first camp.
Oh, and keeping with the theme of this thread: Dupree wasn’t the worst; he was okayish.
The Steelers have had a lot of sacks over the past few seasons. I know Dupree hasn’t personally wracked up a lot, but what I’m wondering is, is there a drop off to our likelihood of getting a sack when he’s been off the off the field? And not just a sack, but a successful defensive play.
I’m personally much happier when Dupree is on the field than when he isn’t, but I’d be interested in knowing to what extent that happiness is justified. Especially this season.
I know that doesn’t necessarily speak to what he’s “worth” in a general salary sense, but it might help illuminate how valuable he is to us right now.
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Great question and post.
Ask the same question, except change "Dupree" to "Tuitt" or "Watt." Then you will be getting somewhere.
Tuitt and Watt are the guys who are the actual playmakers and space-creators for the pass rush. Heyward and Hargrave to a lesser extent. Dupree is the guy along for the ride.
See you Space Cowboy ...
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