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Thread: What Scheme?

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    What Scheme?

    I keep seeing all these calls to change the scheme. At first I’m like “YES!” but then I think about it.

    Most lauded current defensive guru, Vic Fangio, runs a 34. So do the Packers, Ravens, Chargers, And Bears. These teams have all had successful defenses recently.

    So the 34 isn’t the whole problem. Which makes me wonder what it is about the Steelers version that needs changed?

    Honestly, it's how they defend empty sets. Fix that and they win 3 more games a year. The rest of it can and often does work. It is the total lack of an answer to empty. Teams are going to just keep putting the defense in that position.

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    What Scheme?

    The scheme is fine, as in the 3-4 works well enough with the correct personnel. It seems like where we play our players, their assignments, etc just isn’t correct. Things like setting the edge by the OLBs, getting the proper people cover the proper person, the entire def gameplan seems to just be generic BS. Our best players are as good or better than most other teams best players and yet they don’t get the sacks or INTs, they miss tackles and when they do make a play, it was due to their effort rather than scheming them into mismatches.
    I mean, how many years does the middle of the field have to be wide open in our defense before we develop a plan to fix it? How many times can Seattle run the outside pass before we make an adjustment to at least slow it down? How difficult is it to develop a gameplan to negate the other teams best player? Or if our secondary is not cutting it, figure out how to get more pressure. I mean, NE kills everyone with the short crossing routes and timing passes, yet we NEVER bump their WRs off the LOS.
    Same goes for offense, how many times are we going to run that stupid WR screen and have it not gain anything before we just stop? Hell, we had the answer with Miller a few years ago where he released up the field, we faked the WR screen and we hit it 2-3x for big gains only to abandon it. How many times do we throw to a cold WR who drops every pass until we put someone else in?
    Some of that is on the players, but if they have a shit plan, we no longer have the talent to cover that up. Unless our secondary starts coming up with INTs and our WRs starts beating their matchups, this is going to be a long year.

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: What Scheme?

    Another solid posting. I believe the lack of any playmaking from the safety position is just torpedoing anything the defense is trying to build.

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    NFL's Dirtiest Player Array title="86WARD has a reputation beyond repute"> 86WARD's Avatar

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    Re: What Scheme?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I keep seeing all these calls to change the scheme. At first I’m like “YES!” but then I think about it.

    Most lauded current defensive guru, Vic Fangio, runs a 34. So do the Packers, Ravens, Chargers, And Bears. These teams have all had successful defenses recently.

    So the 34 isn’t the whole problem. Which makes me wonder what it is about the Steelers version that needs changed?

    Honestly, it's how they defend empty sets. Fix that and they win 3 more games a year. The rest of it can and often does work. It is the total lack of an answer to empty. Teams are going to just keep putting the defense in that position.
    Nobody on this board can give you a 100% correct answer. No one here is qualified to interview a defensive coach and approve the “scheme”. No one here is qualified to breakdown game film and know exactly what each players assignment was and where they failed.

    Most teams don’t run a specific defense anymore. The personnel may be 3-4 type personnel, but they are running everything in hybrid defenses these days.

    The problem with this team may not necessarily be the scheme itself but rather the terminology the team is using and/or the players they are using in the scheme. Could be the execution...which would fall on the players or the coaches not putting them in the proper positions. There’s also the failure to adjust the scheme. How many years now have the Steelers been beaten by a TE on a fade route? How many times have they been beaten on the outside versus a swing pass? Endless amounts of time. That part of the “scheme” is not working. Blame it on the actual scheme itself, the players, what have you...but nothing has been adjusted to fix that. I mean how many years and how many drafts is it going to take to fix it and by the time one part is fixed, the next part will be old and broken. You can’t just plug in players and hope it works. Devin Bush and Mark Barron seem to be pretty good players...same shit is happening this season as it did last season...same defense, different players.

    Maybe instead of saying the scheme doesn’t work, the combination of the players and scheme doesn’t mesh?

    I tend to think, both on offense, defense and definitely special teams...they need new coordinators and I’d give Munchak head coach type money and offer to pay every penny of his expense and his family’s expense to move back to Pittsburgh and I’d buy he and his family homes and find them jobs. The O-Line has appeared to digress...


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    Senior Member Array title="teegre has a reputation beyond repute"> teegre's Avatar

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    Re: What Scheme?

    It seems (to me) that the secondary is overthinking things. Keep it simple. Let their freakish athleticism shine.

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: What Scheme?

    Just read that the Seahawks got the ball out in 1.89 seconds per attempt in the second half. There is zero scheme that is going to put a pass rush on that.

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: What Scheme?

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Nobody on this board can give you a 100% correct answer. No one here is qualified to interview a defensive coach and approve the “scheme”. No one here is qualified to breakdown game film and know exactly what each players assignment was and where they failed.

    Most teams don’t run a specific defense anymore. The personnel may be 3-4 type personnel, but they are running everything in hybrid defenses these days.

    The problem with this team may not necessarily be the scheme itself but rather the terminology the team is using and/or the players they are using in the scheme. Could be the execution...which would fall on the players or the coaches not putting them in the proper positions. There’s also the failure to adjust the scheme. How many years now have the Steelers been beaten by a TE on a fade route? How many times have they been beaten on the outside versus a swing pass? Endless amounts of time. That part of the “scheme” is not working. Blame it on the actual scheme itself, the players, what have you...but nothing has been adjusted to fix that. I mean how many years and how many drafts is it going to take to fix it and by the time one part is fixed, the next part will be old and broken. You can’t just plug in players and hope it works. Devin Bush and Mark Barron seem to be pretty good players...same shit is happening this season as it did last season...same defense, different players.

    Maybe instead of saying the scheme doesn’t work, the combination of the players and scheme doesn’t mesh?

    I tend to think, both on offense, defense and definitely special teams...they need new coordinators and I’d give Munchak head coach type money and offer to pay every penny of his expense and his family’s expense to move back to Pittsburgh and I’d buy he and his family homes and find them jobs. The O-Line has appeared to digress...
    But the information is out there. There are several podcasts where guys that do break-down the All 22 tape give their thoughts and reactions to specifically Steelers or a range of games. Typically very interesting to listen to, because their takes are different than the narrative here.

    As to the things that are beating the defense, look around the league. They are beating every defense. Now, I would grant that the Steelers have been particularly bad at a few of those things, but not many are stopping them consistently. Which makes me wonder, again, if the foundational game-plan is not that bad --- but it is individual points of failure with players?

    That speaks to Teegre's point. Maybe the coaches are getting too cute and over-complicating things that should be simple...

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    Re: What Scheme?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    But the information is out there. There are several podcasts where guys that do break-down the All 22 tape give their thoughts and reactions to specifically Steelers or a range of games. Typically very interesting to listen to, because their takes are different than the narrative here.

    As to the things that are beating the defense, look around the league. They are beating every defense. Now, I would grant that the Steelers have been particularly bad at a few of those things, but not many are stopping them consistently. Which makes me wonder, again, if the foundational game-plan is not that bad --- but it is individual points of failure with players?

    That speaks to Teegre's point. Maybe the coaches are getting too cute and over-complicating things that should be simple...
    Would love to listen/watch those breakdowns of the all 22 if you happened to know the name of any of them

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: What Scheme?

    Quote Originally Posted by Method28 View Post
    Would love to listen/watch those breakdowns of the all 22 if you happened to know the name of any of them

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    I think it is every Tuesday or Wednesday on Steelers Depot. Often Ryan Russilo has a a rotating cast of people on his podcast. Ross Tucker's pod often has some of it on. I think Behind the Steel Curtain's podcast gets into some of it as well, but I don't remember their schedule.

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    Re: What Scheme?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I think it is every Tuesday or Wednesday on Steelers Depot. Often Ryan Russilo has a a rotating cast of people on his podcast. Ross Tucker's pod often has some of it on. I think Behind the Steel Curtain's podcast gets into some of it as well, but I don't remember their schedule.
    Awesome thanks for the Info!

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

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    Re: What Scheme?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Just read that the Seahawks got the ball out in 1.89 seconds per attempt in the second half. There is zero scheme that is going to put a pass rush on that.
    But if you Jam the receivers it slows that down...no?


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    Re: What Scheme?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Just read that the Seahawks got the ball out in 1.89 seconds per attempt in the second half. There is zero scheme that is going to put a pass rush on that.
    The only way that happens consistently is timing routes, so the scheme to stop that is to jam the WRs at the LOS and disrupt their timing

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: What Scheme?

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    But if you Jam the receivers it slows that down...no?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorhead View Post
    The only way that happens consistently is timing routes, so the scheme to stop that is to jam the WRs at the LOS and disrupt their timing
    I don't know, maybe? Kinda hard to jam RBs and TEs sometimes. Same with motion WRs. I'm trying to think what the Seahawks offensive sets looked like. Can't really recall. Mostly because I was paying more attention to how the Steelers lined up.

    Did they use WRs bunches or stacks? Hard to jam the guy coming out of that as well. Steelers do this all the time. Again, it would be really interesting to rewatch and look for all this stuff specifically. But I am certainly not going to do it.

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    Re: What Scheme?

    After watching yesterday's game it's like if the pass rush does not get there we are toast in the secondary.

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