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Thread: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

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    More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    https://steelersdepot.com/2019/09/fi...coverage-bust/

    Great moving picture walk-through on how and why one of the Patriots TDs was just a total blown assignment.

    I am by no means trying to pick on Kam Kelly and Edmunds, but they executed fairly good plans like crap all game.

    To my mind, we have a situation where the coaching staff drew up some decent stuff but the players screwed it up on the field. That raises a few questions:
    1. Was the "stuff" not communicated well enough that the players just "knew it"?
    2. Are some of the players just hella dumb and it is easy to confuse them?
    3. Did the Pats tweak their formations just enough that it confused the players even when they knew the defensive call?
    4. Related to #3 -- Was adjusting to the adjustment not covered enough in preparation or are the players just kinda dumb?

    Honestly, I am leaning towards inexperience versus Tom Brady and McDaniels got them smoked. And before we all start ripping Butler a new one -- wasn't Terryl Austin brought in to "Save" the DBs -- particularly the safeties? You know, the ones who screwed the pooch repeatedly on Sunday?

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    The Article uses the “Edmunds and Kelly are green” excuse. Any excuse to take the heat off of the Steelers outclassed coaching.

    Except the Patriots started a rookie center and and another backup on their offensive lines, and no Gronkowski and a relative unknowns at Tight End. No experience with the Steelers Defense at all. They handled the Steelers’ veteran front seven relatively well. It’s almost as if Belichick had prepared for such a situation and made slight offensive adjustments to reduce the stress of his green players and put them into positions to succeed. Strange.

    Belichick and Brady are on the sidelines looking over plays and figuring out a new plan of action. Tomlin just stands there wide-eyed.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    The Article uses the “Edmunds and Kelly are green” excuse.

    Except the Patriots started a rookie center and and another backup on their offensive lines, and no Gronkowski and a relative unknowns at Tight End. No experience with the Steelers Defense at all. They handled the Steelers’ veteran front seven relatively well. It’s almost as if Belichick had prepared for such a situation and made slight offensive adjustments to reduce the stress of his green players and put them into positions to succeed. Strange.

    Belichick and Brady are on the sidelines looking over plays and figuring out a new plan of action. Tomlin just stands there wide-eyed like a doofus.
    Couple of things:

    1. If you are using the televised shots to evaluate sideline activity, I encourage you to think through it a bit more. You realize that the TV broadcast is a story, right? All those meetings the broadcast guys talk about, it is to help the production team identify and agree on the narratives they are going to tell during the broadcast. Showing the Pats coaches with sharpies and ipads or whatever fits with a narrative the broadcast team already identified as wanting to show. Showing the shell-shocked sideline of the team getting stomped is another standard broadcast narrative. TV is constructed reality not actual reality.

    2. Maybe the Patriots back-ups are better/smarter than Edmunds and Kelly. Maybe it is easier to minimize mistakes and reads by interior offensive lineman than safeties exposed out on the back-end of a defense. Maybe Scarmechia or whatever is far far far better than Austin and Butler at prepping players. Maybe some combination of all this.

    3. Or maybe it is possible that Kelly and Edmunds were put in the correct positions by their coaches. They were given the tools to succeed at their work and they failed to use them properly.

    Why is that when the team wins, the players are awesome and beat the opponent but when the team loses, only coaches are viewed as failures? Makes no sense to me.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Couple of things:

    1. If you are using the televised shots to evaluate sideline activity, I encourage you to think through it a bit more. You realize that the TV broadcast is a story, right? All those meetings the broadcast guys talk about, it is to help the production team identify and agree on the narratives they are going to tell during the broadcast. Showing the Pats coaches with sharpies and ipads or whatever fits with a narrative the broadcast team already identified as wanting to show. Showing the shell-shocked sideline of the team getting stomped is another standard broadcast narrative. TV is constructed reality not actual reality.

    2. Maybe the Patriots back-ups are better/smarter than Edmunds and Kelly. Maybe it is easier to minimize mistakes and reads by interior offensive lineman than safeties exposed out on the back-end of a defense. Maybe Scarmechia or whatever is far far far better than Austin and Butler at prepping players. Maybe some combination of all this.

    3. Or maybe it is possible that Kelly and Edmunds were put in the correct positions by their coaches. They were given the tools to succeed at their work and they failed to use them properly.

    Why is that when the team wins, the players are awesome and beat the opponent but when the team loses, only coaches are viewed as failures? Makes no sense to me.
    Re: point #1

    When’s the last time you saw Tomlin get down and dirty with regards to in-game adjustments with any particular unit?
    I’m sure it happens but not often.
    Belichick does it all the time...with the offense, defense, and special teams.
    Tomlin delegates responsibility too much. Back to that cheerleader vs. coach debate.
    Brady is the same. They’re up 30-3 and he and McDaniels are their still looking for things to exploit.
    Tomlin’s wide eyed and Ben has a blank look on his face while they’re getting drubbed.
    Not buying that the cameras look for these actions to fit a narrative.
    It’s more about how excellence shows up when you focus on the details.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...-room-nfl-news

    More play specific breakdowns that (at least to me) show that the concepts and ideas were good (so coaching) and the execution was terminally flawed (so players and ????).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FrancoLambert View Post
    Re: point #1

    When’s the last time you saw Tomlin get down and dirty with regards to in-game adjustments with any particular unit?
    I’m sure it happens but not often.
    Belichick does it all the time...with the offense, defense, and special teams.
    Tomlin delegates responsibility too much. Back to that cheerleader vs. coach debate.
    Brady is the same. They’re up 30-3 and he and McDaniels are their still looking for things to exploit.
    Tomlin’s wide eyed and Ben has a blank look on his face while they’re getting drubbed.
    Not buying that the cameras look for these actions to fit a narrative.
    It’s more about how excellence shows up when you focus on the details.
    You realize the ONLY shots we see on TV are the ones some NBC producer sitting in a giant RV decides to show us, right? You also realize the "Brady and Billy B are genius and work so hard" is the preferred narrative for every Pats broadcast?

    I mean I also think Ben is far from a good X and O quarterback, but even he has been caught on the sidelines looking over pictures and tablet stuff.

    We have no idea how the Steelers coaching staff communicates during the games. I mean they all wear those fancy headsets for some reason...could be they use those to talk to other coaches....

    You are just drawing definitive conclusions to fit your opinion from about the most flawed set of information possible. Sorry, but your conclusions (while potentially correct) are not based on firm ground.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...-room-nfl-news

    More play specific breakdowns that (at least to me) show that the concepts and ideas were good (so coaching) and the execution was terminally flawed (so players and ????).

    - - - Updated - - -



    You realize the ONLY shots we see on TV are the ones some NBC producer sitting in a giant RV decides to show us, right? You also realize the "Brady and Billy B are genius and work so hard" is the preferred narrative for every Pats broadcast?

    I mean I also think Ben is far from a good X and O quarterback, but even he has been caught on the sidelines looking over pictures and tablet stuff.

    We have no idea how the Steelers coaching staff communicates during the games. I mean they all wear those fancy headsets for some reason...could be they use those to talk to other coaches....

    You are just drawing definitive conclusions to fit your opinion from about the most flawed set of information possible. Sorry, but your conclusions (while potentially correct) are not based on firm ground.
    You’re probably right. Tomlin and Ben are just as good as Belichick and Brady when it comes to studying the game.
    My conclusion is based on observation, not a pre-conceived opinion.
    Of course none of us see all and know all that is going on. We all infer based on what we see.
    All I know is that I see Belichick being significantly more involved than Tomlin, for years, with his team on the sideline.
    Since I don’t have any hard stats to back my opinion up, I guess it just remains an opinion.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by FrancoLambert View Post
    You’re probably right. Tomlin and Ben are just as good as Belichick and Brady when it comes to studying the game.
    My conclusion is based on observation, not a pre-conceived opinion.
    Of course none of us see all and know all that is going on. We all infer based on what we see.
    All I know is that I see Belichick being significantly more involved than Tomlin, for years, with his team on the sideline.
    Since I don’t have any hard stats to back my opinion up, I guess it just remains an opinion.
    So I never said like any of that. But cool story. Keep up the cherry picked facts and observations. It has allowed you to agree with yourself for this long.

    I can think of multiple instances where Tomlin "coached up" a player on the sideline just last season. But, like always, why let what actually happens out in the big wide world intrude on the stories that make us feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

    Tomlin and Ben are not on the level of Billy B and the Brady - who the heck would argue that? But to go to the other extreme and just conclude that they are both Jim Caldwell is pretty much just as dumb.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    It’s as simple as practice and repetition makes perfect. Blaming the players is a cop-out. It all comes back to coaching

    You could argue the game plan was ‘decent’ but not using Vance, or going to Holton instead of Washington, not sticking to the run more, not going for it on 4th down at the one are glaring mistakes from the coaching staff.

    to top it all off coach admits ‘the team wasn’t ready’ like he had nothing to do with it.

    i just wonder how long the ownership is going to put up with this. Maybe Tomlin will do just well enough this season, like go 9-7 and a brief or no playoff appearance, so he can keep hanging on. I half expect it.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    The Article uses the “Edmunds and Kelly are green” excuse.
    Kelly *is* green as hell. A lot of the time, the problem with rookies isn't a lack of knowledge, but a lack of confidence. They think too much and react too slow. I wouldn't write him off just because his first outing sucked.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-in-west View Post
    It’s as simple as practice and repetition makes perfect. Blaming the players is a cop-out. It all comes back to coaching

    You could argue the game plan was ‘decent’ but not using Vance, or going to Holton instead of Washington, not sticking to the run more, not going for it on 4th down at the one are glaring mistakes from the coaching staff.

    to top it all off coach admits ‘the team wasn’t ready’ like he had nothing to do with it.

    i just wonder how long the ownership is going to put up with this. Maybe Tomlin will do just well enough this season, like go 9-7 and a brief or no playoff appearance, so he can keep hanging on. I half expect it.
    So how many reps does it take? I mean players are not blank-hard drives waiting to be filled with programs from the coaching staff.

    I think most of us are vastly underestimating how stupid and prone to screw ups the average NFL player is. Like if you run a thing 100 times in practice, go over it another few dozen in the film room, and then remind the players to study it on their tablets on their own --- what else do you want the staff to do? They can't learn this stuff for the guys.

    I teach similarly aged young people, and no matter how you spoon-feed it to them, there is a level of dumb/unmotivated you just can not fix.

    As for Holton versus Washington; Holton actually has the raw speed to pull away from DBs. Washington does not. Ben couldn't hit the broadside of barn on anything over 10 yards on Sunday. So, I can see the logic in trying some deep shots with the player who can give the QB a wider target area to place the ball into.

    For Vance, I would be extremely interested to know if he was not involved because it wasn't the Steelers plan or the Patriots took it away.

    For the run, they tried it pretty often before the scoreboard took it away. Since they managed about 2 yards a rush with it...why do that more? Almost every drive (save one) that they started out running the ball, they got behind the chains and had to face third and long. Where the mighty "throw behind the line of scrimmage to Switzer and watch him fall forward for 3 yards" became the only reliable play since no one else could be bothered to get open.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Kelly *is* green as hell. A lot of the time, the problem with rookies isn't a lack of knowledge, but a lack of confidence. They think too much and react too slow. I wouldn't write him off just because his first outing sucked.
    yeah honestly the dude is basically a rookie starting in his first game ever, against the best in the business. I expected him to blow an assignment here and there. Hope he gets better and Sean Davis comes back soon.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    So how many reps does it take? I mean players are not blank-hard drives waiting to be filled with programs from the coaching staff.

    I think most of us are vastly underestimating how stupid and prone to screw ups the average NFL player is. Like if you run a thing 100 times in practice, go over it another few dozen in the film room, and then remind the players to study it on their tablets on their own --- what else do you want the staff to do? They can't learn this stuff for the guys.

    I teach similarly aged young people, and no matter how you spoon-feed it to them, there is a level of dumb/unmotivated you just can not fix.

    As for Holton versus Washington; Holton actually has the raw speed to pull away from DBs. Washington does not. Ben couldn't hit the broadside of barn on anything over 10 yards on Sunday. So, I can see the logic in trying some deep shots with the player who can give the QB a wider target area to place the ball into.

    For Vance, I would be extremely interested to know if he was not involved because it wasn't the Steelers plan or the Patriots took it away.

    For the run, they tried it pretty often before the scoreboard took it away. Since they managed about 2 yards a rush with it...why do that more? Almost every drive (save one) that they started out running the ball, they got behind the chains and had to face third and long. Where the mighty "throw behind the line of scrimmage to Switzer and watch him fall forward for 3 yards" became the only reliable play since no one else could be bothered to get open.
    I don't think most guys who make as starters in the NFL are incapable of learning their roles. Maybe some of our players have forgotten how to play against lesser competition for the last half dozen years? Do they drop their guard for those games? That has nothing to do with the coach?

    anyway, Conner had 10 rushes total for the game. I think they gave up on him in the 2nd quarter. Seems they abandoned the run a little to soon to me. Btw, that sweep to the left for -4 with them needing one yard was ugly. Wonder where Nix was.

    As for Washington, he seemed to get enough separation on that long pass from Ben. sorry, i don't buy that 'he can't separate from DB's' line.

    I'm done with hashing this game. Let's hope it was just a typical Tomlin slow start and it looked more ugly than usual cause it was against the pats. hoping for a bounce back against the seahawks.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Kelly *is* green as hell. A lot of the time, the problem with rookies isn't a lack of knowledge, but a lack of confidence. They think too much and react too slow. I wouldn't write him off just because his first outing sucked.
    For years, with experienced guys back there, the same problems have been happening.

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    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    For years, with experienced guys back there, the same problems have been happening.
    These issues have been prevalent for several seasons, with any number of different players - experienced and not, and against many different quarterbacks and coaches.

    We either have "dumb" players (front office evaluation issue) or unprepared players (coaching issue).

    As always, the most disappointing aspect of this discussion to me, is that the players don't seem to progress from season to season.

    Aside from those with pedigree - Watt & Heyward for example, or freakish talent - AB and Shazier, who has really progressed significantly under the current staff? Most seem to stagnate or fall well under expectations.



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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Another process failure; not taking advantage of the one thing Brady is not good at; buying time and improvising

    not enough jamming the receivers at the line coupled with blitzing

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    https://steelersdepot.com/2019/09/fi...coverage-bust/

    Great moving picture walk-through on how and why one of the Patriots TDs was just a total blown assignment.

    I am by no means trying to pick on Kam Kelly and Edmunds, but they executed fairly good plans like crap all game.

    To my mind, we have a situation where the coaching staff drew up some decent stuff but the players screwed it up on the field. That raises a few questions:
    1. Was the "stuff" not communicated well enough that the players just "knew it"?
    2. Are some of the players just hella dumb and it is easy to confuse them?
    3. Did the Pats tweak their formations just enough that it confused the players even when they knew the defensive call?
    4. Related to #3 -- Was adjusting to the adjustment not covered enough in preparation or are the players just kinda dumb?

    Honestly, I am leaning towards inexperience versus Tom Brady and McDaniels got them smoked. And before we all start ripping Butler a new one -- wasn't Terryl Austin brought in to "Save" the DBs -- particularly the safeties? You know, the ones who screwed the pooch repeatedly on Sunday?
    I don’t know the true answer but I don’t believe this defense has a bunch of dummies playing. A lot of 1st thru 3rd round picks on this defense. I do think there is an experience issue right now. Not just playing years but with playing together as a unit also. This defense should be very good by mid season, IMO. I am a firm believer in it’s not nearly as important how you start as it is how you finish.

    As for the communication part of things something is broken here. I was always taught that if something is broken and you can’t fix it you replace it. I will not point a finger at Butler or Austin or Tomlin, but these 3 need to get this defensive communication thing fixed, or something(someone) needs to get replaced. This is the last season I personally am going to keep giving chances and opportunities. If I still see these same issues in the 2nd half of this season I will join in with the “FIRE em ALL” crybabies.

    The Patriots are a good team, especially at home. The Steelers are notorious slow starters. I put zero importance on this loss at this point in the season. It is still anyone’s season and my confidence level is still high.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Here is a bold solution to solving the problems with converting third down short yardage situations


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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    Here is a bold solution to solving the problems with converting third down short yardage situations

    There is not one member of this coaching staff that I would be consider NFL Caliber that they would be a hot commodity somewhere else. The only guy I know is Munchak, and he’s already gone to another team.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    So I never said like any of that. But cool story. Keep up the cherry picked facts and observations. It has allowed you to agree with yourself for this long.

    I can think of multiple instances where Tomlin "coached up" a player on the sideline just last season. But, like always, why let what actually happens out in the big wide world intrude on the stories that make us feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

    Tomlin and Ben are not on the level of Billy B and the Brady - who the heck would argue that? But to go to the other extreme and just conclude that they are both Jim Caldwell is pretty much just as dumb.
    ”Cherry picked facts and observations...” good one.
    Yeah, people form opinions based on facts and observations, that’s usually how it works.
    Talking about going to extremes, “they are both Jim Caldwell is pretty much as dumb.”
    Did I say that?
    You like to cherry pick words and put them in other people’s mouths.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    For years, with experienced guys back there, the same problems have been happening.
    Agreed, which doesn't refute the statement that Kelly actually is green. Both are true.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post

    As for Holton versus Washington; Holton actually has the raw speed to pull away from DBs. Washington does not. Ben couldn't hit the broadside of barn on anything over 10 yards on Sunday. So, I can see the logic in trying some deep shots with the player who can give the QB a wider target area to place the ball into.

    .
    Both Holton and Washington recorded 40 times if 4.54 seconds at the NFL combine. Holton vertical leap is 31.5" vs Washington 34.5" while Washington was 23lbs heavier than Holton at the combine. Washington was also recorded as the fastest player at the Senior Bowl in the year he played, so the evidence would suggest that Washington plays faster and is a more explosive athlete.

    The book on Holton was he is a straight up vertical receiver, with limited route running ability. Washington too is a vertical guy, but will work the middle of the field due to his size.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    Here is a bold solution to solving the problems with converting third down short yardage situations

    His comment, "I think we blocked it" is puzzling to me. You would think by now he would have looked at the film and "known" if it was blocked up well enough or not. The other way to find out what happened on that play is to actually walk over to the bench, grab the O line and RB's and ask what happened on that play, whether it was a run blitz, or line slants, etc that blew that play up. A coach can look guys in the eyes and get the answer pretty quick on that instead of still not knowing what happened the following Thursday on a somewhat important play.

    I agree, he is terrible.

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    Re: More on Process (coaches) versus Execution (players)

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Both Holton and Washington recorded 40 times if 4.54 seconds at the NFL combine. Holton vertical leap is 31.5" vs Washington 34.5" while Washington was 23lbs heavier than Holton at the combine. Washington was also recorded as the fastest player at the Senior Bowl in the year he played, so the evidence would suggest that Washington plays faster and is a more explosive athlete.

    The book on Holton was he is a straight up vertical receiver, with limited route running ability. Washington too is a vertical guy, but will work the middle of the field due to his size.
    Didn’t look at their combine #s. Just going by the articles that came out around the time Holton was signed. All talked about 4.4 or lower speed. MOst said he was faster than any other WR on the roster.

    On Sunday Holton ran past people. Washington got open because MCCourty blew the coverage. Washington is the far better pedigreed WR, but he still has not put consistently getting open by winning individual matchups at the NFL level on film. He looks amazing in the preseason. Twice now. But his next really good regular season game will be his first.

    I hope I am really wrong, but I have zero confidence in the entire WR grouping. I was excited about it a bit ago, but now think I was really wrong in that. If they are just going to continue to line these guys up and hope they win their individual match-up in 2 seconds or less it will be one of the worst passing games in the league. The only two WRs on the roster who look sudden are Johnson and Moncrief. One is a raw rookie and one cant seem to catch.

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