Switching Head Coaches(Hypothetical)

[Steeldude]

Just a hypothetical because I see fans still think the team's problems are due to the players, not the coaching. While the there were drops last night, I don't think it would have made a difference if they caught those passes. The team look confused, unfocused, undisciplined and just plain lost. It looked like the usual school yard football from a Tomlin coached team. On to the hypothetical situation. How would the Steelers and Patriots do if they switched coaches as of now(the HC's OC, DC etc... would follow their coach)? Give them this year to fine tune how they want the team. Start in 2020 as to how you think the team will do.

IMO, Belichick will do a small amount of house cleaning. I believe he will get rid of Dupree(but then again it's Belichick so he could probably get something out of him). The rest of the original team will mostly be in place. Belichick will have the team focused and hone the fundamentals of the game. A lot depends on how BR will take it. Belichick demands his QBs to know it all. I don't know how that will fly with BR. It will be Chickillo and Watt as the starting OLBs. An upgrade at TE will probably take place. The WRs will change. Expect Belichick to acquire disciplined, quick, slot receivers with good hands and strong fundamentals. Schuster will stay, but I am not so sure about the others. I would say Switzer, but he doesn't exactly have the best hands or catch radius. I think he would keep Washington so he has a vertical WR. There could be some changes in the safeties. Overall, I believe Belichick will work with what is there. The Steelers have athletes/talent, but they have no idea what to do on the field or how to utilize their athletic/talent skills. Their fundamentals appear to be lacking at times. Belichick will remedy that. One thing is certain, the players will know where to be and the plays called. Overall, the Steelers would be a powerhouse under Belichick.

Now for Tomlin. The team will show signs of fading immediately. No game plan and a happy-go-lucky practice will soon show its results. Tomlin will insist on finding splash players over coaching, game planning, fundamentals... The Patriots aren't a team with a lot of talent like the Steelers. Tomlin will talk his talk, but it won't do any good. The good thing is Brady is the QB. Brady will do as much as he can to keep the team afloat, but that will become more difficult as time goes on. I could see Brady retiring or asking to be traded to the Steelers following the 2020 season. Overall, the Patriots could make the 2020 playoffs due to Brady, but they won't go far. 2021 will result in missing the playoffs.

[DesertSteel]

The results would be similar with the other 30 teams as well...

[Squeegee Thompson]

At this point, we're stuck with Tomlin until Ben decides to hang 'em up. They're not gonna thrust a new HC on Ben in the twilight of his career. So as long as he plays, Tomlin stays.

After Ben is done, I'd expect a massive overhaul of the coaching staff. At least Rudolph will have a chance with a fresh staff.

[Steeldude]

Classic Tomlin, "We weren’t ready for primetime tonight." Just amazing. Veteran coaches and players, but they weren't ready for prime time? What does that mean? To me it means they had no game plan.

[Mach1]

No shit they weren't ready.
So who's job is it to get them ready, Mike?

[steelreserve]

I think Dupree, Davis, Burns, Edmunds and maybe a couple others would be relegated to the bench and/or quickly shipped out. A few moves would be made for steady, but not impressive or flashy, players in the linebacking corps and defensive backfield, and those problems would even out within a year or two. We would have a defense that was not dominant, but reliable.

I believe we would also immediately stop drafting players with huge raw potential, in favor of "NFL ready" role players who could contribute within their first couple seasons.

There would be a lot more churn from the middle of the roster on down. A big priority would be acquiring R3-R4-R5 picks. At positions of need, you'd take the "best ball" approach - bring in 3 different players for cheap and keep the best one, more often than not resulting in a reliable player being acquired, and more predictable results overall. This rightly lets you give a shorter rope to #1 and #2 draft picks that just can't hack it.

Overall, what Belichick has figured out is that the path to long-term success in the salary cap is to raise the FLOOR of your team, not the ceiling. (Otherwise it blows itself apart every couple years, by rule.) You'll find this reflected by comparing the salary cap lists of the Patriots against that of the Steelers:

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-england-patriots/

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/pittsburgh-steelers/

It's clear that theirs is much less top-heavy, with a lot of emphasis on the $3M-$7M range, rather than the $8M-$9M or $10M-plus range. So you see a consistent difference between their salary cap, draft picks, and general roster moves and ours: They are trying to build a roster calmly and logically, while we are constantly swinging for the fences (and frequently missing). Honestly, the Patriots' approach today reminds me a lot of the Steelers' approach in the '90s, when being non-glamorous but solid across the board was the only way to compete against the bigger teams with unlimited resources. Only now everybody has to do that, but 31 teams didn't get the message.

Of course, I would also expect Ben to pass for 6,000 yards and the number of audibles to quadruple, since the coaches would be calling in adjustments right up to the snap over the illegal headset radio. The most precise route-runners would get all the snaps at WR and would miraculously be wide open way down the field all the time at key moments. To be honest, I'm not sure whether Ben would continue to be the quarterback if he couldn't adjust to the quick-read style. His instinctive play would probably be too much to overcome, and Rudolph would be installed as the starter at the first injury, assuming he has the skills to do that. It seems like that might be the case, at least for a system like that.

[cubanstogie]

It’s really difficult decision to decide who gets majority of blame. Tomlin definitely didn’t have team ready but no one made a great or even good play last night. I like Switzers determination but he had zero yards after catch , Conner didn’t break a tackle I don’t think Vance even played. On D they all looked lost, Dupree officially a bust and Watts effort was there all night but he was doubled. I hate to admit it but without AB those 3rd and shorts had no chance. Hopefully Tomlin figures something out, or you can bet he gets majority of blame and he will deserve it then for sure.moncrief gets one more chance and move on. Sign Martavis back

[stillers4me]

Classic Tomlin, "We weren’t ready for primetime tonight." Just amazing. Veteran coaches and players, but they weren't ready for prime time? What does that mean? To me it means they had no game plan.

Nope. No game plan. Sunday night opener against the defending superbowl champions. Nope. Didn't give a game plan a second thought.

"They weren't prepared and didn't have the team ready" so I guess they played darts and Fortnight all week.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? 16 teams are losers this week so I guess none of them had a game plan, either.

[steelreserve]

Nope. No game plan. Sunday night opener against the defending superbowl champions. Nope. Didn't give a game plan a second thought.

"They weren't prepared and didn't have the team ready" so I guess they played darts and Fortnight all week.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? 16 teams are losers this week so I guess none of them had a game plan, either.

Isn't it actually worse if they DID put a lot of thought and effort into it, and that was the best they could do?

edit: Although hopefully the message is as loud and clear to everyone else as it was to this guy ... Whatever our approach is in the preseason, it's not doing the job. Most years, we come out looking like we are not ready for the season. All this bullshit about "well a lot of teams start slow!" is just that, bullshit, because last night showed it completely possible to be ready, and the difference was on public display for everyone to see.

[86WARD]

They had two months to get ready...

[Steeldude]

Nope. No game plan. Sunday night opener against the defending superbowl champions. Nope. Didn't give a game plan a second thought.

"They weren't prepared and didn't have the team ready" so I guess they played darts and Fortnight all week.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? 16 teams are losers this week so I guess none of them had a game plan, either.

Maybe they will be ready by Week 6, maybe.

So they had a game plan, but not one that was ready for prime time? I guess they used the 1:00 EST plan. That Tomlin, he he always mixing up the times. What a scamp.

I don't care about the other teams in the NFL. I'm not the type that says, "Oh well, other teams lost too."

- - - Updated - - -

They had two months to get ready...

But this was prime time. They were only ready for an early afternoon game. It all makes sense now.

[Mojouw]

Isn't it actually worse if they DID put a lot of thought and effort into it, and that was the best they could do?

edit: Although hopefully the message is as loud and clear to everyone else as it was to this guy ... Whatever our approach is in the preseason, it's not doing the job. Most years, we come out looking like we are not ready for the season. All this bullshit about "well a lot of teams start slow!" is just that, bullshit, because last night showed it completely possible to be ready, and the difference was on public display for everyone to see.

Those are valid questions and concerns.

For me, the most troubling thing is that the team made a concerted effort to get better or more capable of playing man coverages in the middle of the field. So, the question is what happened? We all saw the results. But what was the cause? Poor game-plan? Poor execution of good assignments by the players? Failure to adjust in game to the Patriots offense? Despite the additions, still not the "right" players on defense? Or some toxic combination of all of those?

I'm hoping that it is one of those "work in progress" things and over the next several weeks as they incorporate multiple new schemes and players on defense and expose those additions to game reps, it gets better. Quickly. If not...look out...

[steelreserve]

Those are valid questions and concerns.

For me, the most troubling thing is that the team made a concerted effort to get better or more capable of playing man coverages in the middle of the field. So, the question is what happened? We all saw the results. But what was the cause? Poor game-plan? Poor execution of good assignments by the players? Failure to adjust in game to the Patriots offense? Despite the additions, still not the "right" players on defense? Or some toxic combination of all of those?

I'm hoping that it is one of those "work in progress" things and over the next several weeks as they incorporate multiple new schemes and players on defense and expose those additions to game reps, it gets better. Quickly. If not...look out...

Honestly, I think a big problem is that our secondary is still horseshit after Haden, and the safeties are lost. That's going to be difficult to improve this season. The linebackers still have problems covering, but that could get better with experience.

The sloppiness and just the lack of consistency or focus just seem like they're something that always happens at the start of the year, like whatever they're doing in preseason is the wrong thing to get ready for real games. I don't know whether that means they're practicing the wrong things, or the right players aren't playing together enough to get on the same page, or they do shit that doesn't translate into live game action, Tomlin just has his head up his ass and they don't take the buildup to the season seriously enough. Maybe all of those. It's impossible to deny it exists at this point, though.

[86WARD]

Those are valid questions and concerns.

For me, the most troubling thing is that the team made a concerted effort to get better or more capable of playing man coverages in the middle of the field. So, the question is what happened? We all saw the results. But what was the cause? Poor game-plan? Poor execution of good assignments by the players? Failure to adjust in game to the Patriots offense? Despite the additions, still not the "right" players on defense? Or some toxic combination of all of those?

I'm hoping that it is one of those "work in progress" things and over the next several weeks as they incorporate multiple new schemes and players on defense and expose those additions to game reps, it gets better. Quickly. If not...look out...

As Tomlin said...it was an evaluation game...

[teegre]

Those are valid questions and concerns.

For me, the most troubling thing is that the team made a concerted effort to get better or more capable of playing man coverages in the middle of the field. So, the question is what happened? We all saw the results. But what was the cause? Poor game-plan? Poor execution of good assignments by the players? Failure to adjust in game to the Patriots offense? Despite the additions, still not the "right" players on defense? Or some toxic combination of all of those?

I'm hoping that it is one of those "work in progress" things and over the next several weeks as they incorporate multiple new schemes and players on defense and expose those additions to game reps, it gets better. Quickly. If not...look out...

Take Terrell Edmunds as a case in point.

In the preseason, he wasn’t thinking; he was simply flying to the ball/to the correct spot on the field. Conversely, in the opener, he seemed to be overthinking things and/or standing flat-footed.

It reminds me of Ben in the 2004 playoffs, where he was ripping defenses apart. Then, Cowher got in his head, and Ben had one of the worst Super Bowl performances in history.

SUMMATION:
Butler got in his own way.

[pczach]

Take Terrell Edmunds as a case in point.

In the preseason, he wasn’t thinking; he was simply flying to the ball/to the correct spot on the field. Conversely, in the opener, he seemed to be overthinking things and/or standing flat-footed.

It reminds me of Ben in the 2004 playoffs, where he was ripping defenses apart. Then, Cowher got in his head, and Ben had one of the worst Super Bowl performances in history.

SUMMATION:
Butler got in his own way.

I agree.

Butler seemed incapable of making adjustments to take away what the Patriots were doing to them. Playing man coverage is fine, but the Patriots adjusted by running pick plays and bringing WRs in motion and having them make crack back blocks on the edge players in the run game. That's where it's important to mix up coverages so that Brady can't get into a play that defeats the defense. Butler just never seems to have quarterbacks guessing and constantly struggling to identify what they are seeing.

We all wanted them to play man coverage more than they have in the past, but you have to mix it up when the opposing team has you figured out and knows what's coming unless you have elite coverage guys across the field.

This simple concept seems to elude Butler.

But let's be fair. The offense didn't do enough in this game either. It doesn't matter how good the defense plays if you can't score.

Let's see if they can get on track and start dialing some things in starting this week.

[Mojouw]

I think they did switch it up. They played man, zone, fire-zone, and mixed zone-man.

They just got ripped apart in every one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pczach]

I think they did switch it up. They played man, zone, fire-zone, and mixed zone-man.

They just got ripped apart in every one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They tried some different things, but they were predominantly man early, and it took a long time before he did anything to change it up. They were already getting torn up pretty good.

IMO, the defense needs more disguise and they need to be more diverse in the coverage schemes as a part of the overall defense scheme. In other words, stop reacting to what teams are inflicting on you, and keep them guessing so there is less chance they have sustained success play after play.

[Mojouw]

They tried some different things, but they were predominantly man early, and it took a long time before he did anything to change it up. They were already getting torn up pretty good.

IMO, the defense needs more disguise and they need to be more diverse in the coverage schemes as a part of the overall defense scheme. In other words, stop reacting to what teams are inflicting on you, and keep them guessing so there is less chance they have sustained success play after play.

I think they went zone on like the third Patriots series. Seriously, they tried a ton of things on defense. They just stunk at ALL of them. OR...OR...the Patriots have recreated a version of their 2007 offense and are unstoppable? Kinda like how the KC game looked less worse once they lit everyone else up last season.

The biggest untalked about (yet) problem for the defense is that they faced like 30+ plays by the middle of the second quarter! That is ridiculous and unsustainable. The offense has to run more than 9 plays in like a quarter and a half of football. Or I do not care what defensive scheme you roll out there, you are gonna get roasted facing that many snaps.

[Steeldude]

As Tomlin said...it was an evaluation game...

I'm thinking the evaluation games will last all season. Next year Tomlin will enter the re-evaluation phase.

[Mach1]

I think they went zone on like the third Patriots series. Seriously, they tried a ton of things on defense. They just stunk at ALL of them. OR...OR...the Patriots have recreated a version of their 2007 offense and are unstoppable? Kinda like how the KC game looked less worse once they lit everyone else up last season.

The biggest untalked about (yet) problem for the defense is that they faced like 30+ plays by the middle of the second quarter! That is ridiculous and unsustainable. The offense has to run more than 9 plays in like a quarter and a half of football. Or I do not care what defensive scheme you roll out there, you are gonna get roasted facing that many snaps.

The D is on the field 30+ plays because they're playing like it's preseason and can't force any 3 and out's to give the O more time on the field.
And no the O didn't help much either. They were just as putrid.

[steelreserve]

I think they went zone on like the third Patriots series. Seriously, they tried a ton of things on defense. They just stunk at ALL of them. OR...OR...the Patriots have recreated a version of their 2007 offense and are unstoppable? Kinda like how the KC game looked less worse once they lit everyone else up last season.

The biggest untalked about (yet) problem for the defense is that they faced like 30+ plays by the middle of the second quarter! That is ridiculous and unsustainable. The offense has to run more than 9 plays in like a quarter and a half of football. Or I do not care what defensive scheme you roll out there, you are gonna get roasted facing that many snaps.

I don't know if that's the cause of our poor defensive showing, or merely a reflection of it. We had the same number of possessions as them. They stopped us, we didn't stop them.

What I am more concerned about after seeing the quick replay is that we had four new players on defense (five if you count Edmunds as a new full-time player), and three (four) of them didn't look very good, and the other one was talented but green, and they did not seem to be on the same page. Yes, Kelly was a stopgap starter, but you can argue that Davis has a lot of the same problems. Some of the communication stuff might improve (LIKE BY WEEK 6 OR 8, UGH) but that is not a good sign.

[Mojouw]

I don't know if that's the cause of our poor defensive showing, or merely a reflection of it. We had the same number of possessions as them. They stopped us, we didn't stop them.

What I am more concerned about after seeing the quick replay is that we had four new players on defense (five if you count Edmunds as a new full-time player), and three (four) of them didn't look very good, and the other one was talented but green, and they did not seem to be on the same page. Yes, Kelly was a stopgap starter, but you can argue that Davis has a lot of the same problems. Some of the communication stuff might improve (LIKE BY WEEK 6 OR 8, UGH) but that is not a good sign.

Yup. Possessions may have been equal but I bet # of plays wasn't.

The communication thing is a results issue not a process issue. Like you can make all the fancy schmancy coaching adjustments you want, but if the players don't or can't execute that -- well than who really cares?

What I saw was the the guys tasked with taking away the middle of the field (Barron/Bush/Edmunds/Kelly) were simply not good enough on Sunday. The Pats made all their big plays right down the middle. Often I (think) saw Steelers defenders in a pretty decent alignment to stop or at least credibly defend the Pats play-call and then execution was just horrendous. Barron was a step late all night. Bush looked like he had never been picked or rubbed off a route in his life before. Kelly, well Kelly looked like he went undrafted and has played a handful of positions for a reason -- appears to be a hard working athlete with maybe a not good football IQ. How he got sucked so far up the field as the deep safety, I'll never know.

I actually kinda agree with Tomlin. I think the plan was not that bad (process) the execution by the players was just awful (results). That and the Pats might have the next league rampaging monster on offense.

Where I think both the process and results were just bench guys and fire coaches bad was on offense. Absolutely pitiful that they could look at what the Pats did in the SB to the Rams and think they could come out in formations with no motion, no disguise, no anything and just beat them 1 on 1 without AB and Bell is just laughable. Juju may be the only skill position player on the roster who can both separate from an NFL caliber defender and catch on the same play. Washington, Moncrief, Holton, and Switzer look like they can do one or the other on a given play but not both. Combine that with Ben's love for not throwing until receivers break open, and whoa boy! It went sideways real quick.

[steel striker]

Ok if they fire Tomlin who in the heck would they hire???

[steelreserve]

Ok if they fire Tomlin who in the heck would they hire???

I don't think that was the point, it was "if we theoretically traded coaches with New England, what would be different?"

[86WARD]

I don't think that was the point, it was "if we theoretically traded coaches with New England, what would be different?"

I don’t advocate the firing of Tomlin but there’s a million football coaches out there and there’s going to be a lot better than him on the high school levels, on the college levels, on the NFL intern levels and the Coordinator levels. You can’t really ask who is going to replace him...you just have to trust the Rooney’s interview process.

[steelreserve]

I don’t advocate the firing of Tomlin but there’s a million football coaches out there and there’s going to be a lot better than him on the high school levels, on the college levels, on the NFL intern levels and the Coordinator levels. You can’t really ask who is going to replace him...you just have to trust the Rooney’s interview process.

Oh man, now you've done it. Be prepared for the incoming flood of screaming banshees telling you that, if you dont have a specific coach in mind, who both has more established NFL head coaching success than Tomlin, and is currently available right this minute, then you are out of your mind and clearly just bitching and moaning for the sake of bitching and moaning. Former NFL coaches now working in TV don't count by the way, and recently retired NFL coaches don't count either, and college coaches - you've got to be joking. And also nobody counts if they've ever had a losing season or gone less than .600 for their career. In other words, the only person who could ever possibly do better than Tomlin is Bill Belichick, and if you can't see that you must be a complete psychopath.

[Mojouw]

It isn't that someone else might not or might be able to do better. It is about if you are going to go shopping, you might as well have a list rather than the vague idea that you want some new stuff.

If the Steelers were going to go a new direction with coaches, then they should be certain of what they want:

1. A HC that can guide the team through the tail end of Ben's career and then guide Rudolph in his start.
2. I think an offensive focused coach would be best. Few teams are dialing up defenses that are winning anything on their own. Get in on the offensive explosion. "Future proof" the staff to a degree.
3. One could assume that Rudolph would be most comfortable in an "Air Raid" or "spread" or "RPO" style attack. That is good because that is the direction the league is going towards. However, Ben has repeatedly stated he does not like that style of offense. So you would have to find a pretty flexible offensive minded coach. They may have to install two systems in like 4 years. Tricky at best.
4. Because of #2 and #3 you are going to likely end up with a youngish coach that is going to need to be comfortable almost totally outsourcing the defense to a key assistant. Therefore, your HC candidate better have a detailed plan for putting that staff together. Something more than "We will figure it out." McVay had Gregg Williams. The Packers new guy had Pettine. Nagy had Fangio for a year or so with the Bears. Reid is doing all the offensive stuff, but has no plan for defense. Look where the Chiefs are at.
5. Who is going to run the player personnel side? Also needs to be well planned out.

Now is any of the above a reason to not fire/hire a HC? Absolutely not. But it is far more complicated and detailed than "FIRE PEOPLE!".

[Hawkman]

It isn't that someone else might not or might be able to do better. It is about if you are going to go shopping, you might as well have a list rather than the vague idea that you want some new stuff.

If the Steelers were going to go a new direction with coaches, then they should be certain of what they want:

1. A HC that can guide the team through the tail end of Ben's career and then guide Rudolph in his start.
2. I think an offensive focused coach would be best. Few teams are dialing up defenses that are winning anything on their own. Get in on the offensive explosion. "Future proof" the staff to a degree.
3. One could assume that Rudolph would be most comfortable in an "Air Raid" or "spread" or "RPO" style attack. That is good because that is the direction the league is going towards. However, Ben has repeatedly stated he does not like that style of offense. So you would have to find a pretty flexible offensive minded coach. They may have to install two systems in like 4 years. Tricky at best.
4. Because of #2 and #3 you are going to likely end up with a youngish coach that is going to need to be comfortable almost totally outsourcing the defense to a key assistant. Therefore, your HC candidate better have a detailed plan for putting that staff together. Something more than "We will figure it out." McVay had Gregg Williams. The Packers new guy had Pettine. Nagy had Fangio for a year or so with the Bears. Reid is doing all the offensive stuff, but has no plan for defense. Look where the Chiefs are at.
5. Who is going to run the player personnel side? Also needs to be well planned out.

Now is any of the above a reason to not fire/hire a HC? Absolutely not. But it is far more complicated and detailed than "FIRE PEOPLE!".

Again with the logic! What’s the matter with you?

[HollywoodSteel]

I don't think that was the point, it was "if we theoretically traded coaches with New England, what would be different?"

Okay, then let’s also have a thread: what if we traded Bud Dupree for Kahlil Mack? What would that be like?

I don’t understand the point. If you want to get rid of Tomlin, great. Present an actually POSSIBLE alternative and we’ll discuss the pros and cons rationally. Or we can talk about trading anyone on our team for the very best in the game and masterbate to the possibility.