Never said Dupree was good enough or things like that right now, but to say that he is a complete embarrassment as you say in post 52, it's too far a bit!Originally Posted by steelreserve
Never said Dupree was good enough or things like that right now, but to say that he is a complete embarrassment as you say in post 52, it's too far a bit!
The evaluation of players and roster spots/construction absolutely depends on “other players”. That’s the entire point. Unlike fans and message board fanatics, NFL teams are forced to work in reality and the realm of what is possible.
If you have a spot targeted for replacement but all the available options are not sure upgrades, a team is going to stick with the known quantity.
If Steven Nelson had not signed, I guarantee Sensabaugh would’ve gotten to at least training camp with the team.
I agree with you that the Steelers needed Dupree and Chickillo on the roster as veteran NFL depth at OLB. I also agree that Olaqwerty and Skipper have upside and potential....but the reality is that we don't know if they are going to be the next James Harrison or the next Carlos Emmons.
I expect to see an OLB drafted early in 2020.
Maybe we'll know a good part of the answer this year
They will likely not be a James Harrison's caliber, but if the Steelers are confident at least one of his players can be above average, they should drafted a player to another position in the first 3 rounds
They did a good evaluation of James Harrison in 2007, after they released Joey Porter (even if I do not think the Steelers thought Harrison was going to be a monster like that) so hopefully they'll do a good evaluation on that too in 2020 in this position!
Ola is active and makes good use of his hands in the pass rush, but I never saw that he was that solid in setting the edge in run game. I think he has enough athleticism to drop and cover. Skipper shows good use of his hands and bend in getting around the edge in pass rush, but not sure if he has a counter move at all and he looks stiff, so may not be adept in getting into coverage.
I think Dupree is better than both and am not sure either will ascend to his level. So the Dupree haters are optimistic about some UDFA's, but in the end they might just be depth OLB's, or one is going to be pressed into action and be a downgrade from the current starters on the outside.
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Fake rumor: Dino Tomlin is transferring to Toledo for 2020 season
Player as Chickillo had almost 300 snap on defense last year (28% of the snap) even if Dupree and Watt had not missed a game, so likely that Ola and other are going to have opportunities for the Steelers to have a good evaluation on them .... Important to do that!
Now imagine Sensabaugh was being paid more than Nelson. So we never go looking for Nelson, and just like that, Sensabaugh is your starter by default for the 2019 season. Yowch.
THAT is what the Dupree haters mean when we talk about "settling for mediocrity." Although in Dupree's case, mediocrity is really stretching it. He's only even mediocre when he has three or four serious playmakers in front of him doing the hard work. Mediocre players look good when they have that kind of help.
Sensabaugh was a really good comparison, though. A shaky player who barely got you through the season but has clear shortcomings and you will always be looking for someone better as long as he's on the team. Just switch his name and draft status with Dupree's and you would have the exact same story. But we tunnel-visioned hard on one but not the other, and the divergent results could not be a better reflection of that.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Not a good comparaison since Sensabaugh is out of the league right now...
Dupree would have found another job with another team with a good salary if the Steelers would have released Dupree and the Steelers would probably have nobody at this position and this spot would have the potential to be weak as the backup TE position right now .... The price for a edge rusher on the open market, even if they are average, is at least 7 million per year, so your scenario is very unrealistic. The NFL is not Madden 20!
What do you mean, there were several players we could've gone after if it was a priority. An "average" OLB costs $7 million and Dupree costs $9 million? Shit, where do I sign up for that?
This really just has the potential to keep going around in circles forever, so instead of that, I will make one final point and see if anyone can disprove it:
"Fuck Bud Dupree. The guy sucks."
See you Space Cowboy ...
Not because Dupree is not a star (a star costs at least 17-18 million in this position) means he suck!
Why take the risk to release Dupree, when you have much better chance of being worse at his position after (with a worse player in the same price or near or be of the caliber of the backup TE position with a player at the price of Xavier Grimble) that having a better player at the same price, which was almost impossible
A player who had the same stats as Dupree after 4 years in the NFL (Za'Darius Smith with 20 sacks after 4 seasons,same for Dupree) had $ 16.5 million a year in the open market ... So please Colbert knows more about how the market is and stops thinking about scenarios which is really not realistic.
Smith is basically Dupree with more refined technique and a slightly higher football IQ. But I mean I guess the Steelers could've signed Sam Acho for like $4 million or something...
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But that is the point you are not getting. No one is arguing that Dupree doesn't suck. They are arguing that the level of suck that Dupree brings to the table is worth somewhere between 8-16 million dollars per season in the NFL right now.
The contract dollar evaluation of a player is not always the same as the talent level of the player.
Or released Dupree and spend 7 million more for a player only with more refined technique and a slightly higher football IQ in Smith!
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Actually...I AM arguing that Bud Dupree doesn't suck. His pass rush does not warrant $9M yet everything else he does from his OLB position does(arguably I understand). If you want a $15M-$20M pass rusher fine, but that is not a comparison with Dupree and his job on this defense. Dupree is an average pass rusher but above average everywhere else. His $9M is not for his pass rush production. That seems to be the sticking point for most Dupree haters. And I would bet his true value falls a bit if this season is status quo in his sack totals. Bud could get an offer for 3-5yrs at $5M-$7M per at his level of play. That does not put him at the elite level of OLB but it does mean he doesn't suck as a 3-4 OLB.
The LeBeau style 3-4 has been through some tweaking since teams figured out to spread out to beat it. This makes the pass rush OLB have to play in coverage as well as set the edge against the run(means turn the run back inside) as well as be a situational pass rusher. Bud Dupree is average as a pass rusher but above average in coverage and setting an edge. Thus his value.
Even the market for a TE is higher !!!
A 26 year old TE with the Rams yesterday signed a contract of almost 8 million a year even if this player had never had 300 yards in a season(only 4 TD in 3 seasons)!
Another GM who knows nothing, even if his teams was in last year's Super Bowl!
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/los-ange...ats-valuation/
You are not wrong. And I shouldn't have spoken for anyone aside from myself. Cheers!
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Cheers! And most(99%) of my post was not directed at your post but some thoughts on Dupree I have kept to myself for a while. Dollar value vs drafted position/draft round vs fan idea of success vs team idea of success vs league idea of success vs talking heads idea of success is an impossible equation to figure out. Fan X wants to say Dupree sucks because he doesn't sack the QB as often as Fan X thinks a 1st round OLB should. On the surface that is understandable, but Fan X is not looking at the entire picture. Then the 1st round OLB's 5th year option price tag kicks in and now the team has over-valued said suck. However, the league puts a value on comparable OLB stats at a price even higher than that. And it gets even more confusing from there. I think what it all comes down to is how the team wants to use it's players and how those players fit. The value begins and ends right there. Fan X, the talking heads, even what the league thinks means absolutely nothing to this process.
The coaches have consciously altered the way that they are going to use Dupree this upcoming season. He was an octagonal piece trying to fit in a round hole. (Really, his style isn’t even “square”.) This change focuses on what Dupree does well. Ergo, I expect a vastly different Dupree on the field this season.
Speaking to that point, last season, the coaches switched which side Dupree played on... and he improved. I expect an even bigger improvement this season.
In before: “Belichick would have made this change when Dupree was a rookie!!!”
I do not like Keith Butler as DC, but as a linebacker coach, he is very good and I think Dupree could be better because of that this year!
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Some really good thoughts there.
Value is difficult to quantify if you are only looking at stats. There are many ways to judge how effective a player is, but it is hard for many to accept that.
I foresee Teryl Austin taking over as DC... regulating Keith Butler to “LB coach only” (where he was actually pretty good).
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