Pass Defense Not so Good??

[Craic]

I know we are all enthralled about our defense right now, and with good reason. However, I would like to point out one factor that sits like a warning beacon...

We are 18th in pass defense. That's right. 18th. And that is WITH our D tied for 3rd in sacks AND tied for third in INT's.

When it comes to Passes defended, we are tied with Cleveland, Tennessee, KC, St. Louis, Minnesota, NO, and SD. Just one less pass defended puts us in 19th place out of 32.

Is the sky falling? No. But outside the last game (where we had all our second string defense playing pretty much), I am still seeing the pattern late in games when teams are driving on us.

So, is it bad Scheming... or bad pass defense?

[oneforthetoe]

Our pass defense is 3 - 0. And we have given up an average of 11 points a game or something like that. Don't care where we rank in yards given up. Besides, total yards gained and/or given up is, imo, way overstated in importance. Teams have to throw on us because they can not run. Also, they are usually trying to catchup at the end. The first two games were only close because the offense could not score a td - not because the pass D was weak (although the whole D was understandably winded in the Falcon's game).

While I would love to see us shut down teams completetly. As you know, Dick Lebeau's scheme is designed not to give up the big play and keep everything in front of the secondary. This is the reason we do not play a great deal of man-to-man. Tighter coverage means a bigger chance that a corner gets beat for a big play.


To conclude.Do we have the best secondary in the league? Probably not. Does Lebeau's system come without drawbacks? No Every defensive scheme has its weaknesses. If being ranked in the middle of total yards given up is the only weakness in Lebeau's scheme, I'll take it.

[tube517]

I saw that in the stats. I think it's too early to judge because they went prevent D in 2 out of the 3 games. Atlanta is the best passing team out of the 3 we played and they were shut down when necessary. Even w/Roddy White's gaudy stats, he didn't make any big plays and more importantly, no TD's.

There is a 4 week stretch when we play some "legit" WR's

Miami - Brandon Marshall
New Orleans - Marques Colston
Cincinnati - Ocho/TO
New England - Randy Moss

I say look at the stats at least after those games.

But the most important stats for me are points, 3rd down conversions or 3rd and long conversions.

[solardave]

I also noticed the trend. We're letting teams drive up and down the field on us with their passing attack. The question, is Lebeau employing a bend but don't brake secondary? Since we're not giving up TDs I tend to think he is.

[steelreserve]

The way this usually works is, a lot of bad teams end up with "good" pass defense stats because they're getting blown out and their opponents start running a lot ... and a lot of good teams end up looking worse than they are against the pass because they get ahead and their opponents start passing a lot. Every year, you end up with a bunch of last-place teams finishing high in the pass defense category.

Look at last year, for example. You had

2. Buffalo (6-10)
3. Denver (8-8)
4. Carolina (8-8)
7. Oakland (5-11)
8. Washington (4-12)
10. Tampa (3-13)

This year, below us, you've got teams like the Colts, Patriots, Bears, Falcons all below us ... Houston is dead last, for that matter. This is one of those stats that can really belie the true story. Though as the season goes on, things do tend to sort themselves out if you legitimately have a good all-around defense, which I believe we do.

[Edman]

Our Defense isn't perfect, it has it's holes. But despite being 18th in Pass Defense, the D is doing their job in their most important role: Scoreboard. Teams despite moving the ball well through the air, don't do a whole lot of scoring in spite of it. The previous Steelers opponents were held to 9, 11, and 13 points. It's like the 2009 Steelers Offense. Rack up loads of yardage, but scoring leaves a lot to be desired.

Also, did you know the 2009 Defense for all of it's game-costing failures was ranked 5th in the league last year? After the buttload of points and yardage they surrendered? I don't think rankings tell the WHOLE story. This D isn't the prettiest, but it's getting the job done so far. Defenses who get the job done lead to championships. Last Year's D couldn't do that.

If this were last year, Tampa Bay probably would've closed the game to within seven with 5-6 minutes to play last Sunday. Trust me, it probably would've happened. Does anyone forger last year when the Steelers D blew a 21-point lead to the Chargers at Heinz? They won anyway, but it wasn't a good omen, and it haunted us for the rest of that season.

[Butch]

Interesting point padre.

I personally like the bend don't break style of pass defense, the longer it takes a team to get down field the more chances you have of making your own big play. I am sure at some point this season there will come a game when a team is pressing us with their pass game, for me that is the time that the Offence needs to stop up and create some opportunities of their own, after all this is a team effort. I want to see an offence that can make in game adjustments and effective game plans at the begining of games. That is what makes a team SCARY GOOD!!!

[Crow-Magnon]

Face facts. It's damned rare to have a defense that's at the top in every category worth tracking- sacks, fumbles, INT's, stopping the rush and stopping the pass. As it stands right now, any Steeler fan that is "questioning" their defense needs a psychiatric evaluation. Post-haste.

Right now (and holy shat it pains me to type this), Pittsburgh has the most complete defense in the NFL. Yes, it has some weak points, but every NFL defense does. The Ravens are supposed to be excellent at stopping the rush, but crapola against the pass without Foxworth and Reed. Yet this year they are doing well against passing attacks, yet have yielded some big gains on the ground. I really don't expect Mendenhall to go over 100 yards, but you never know.

Anyway, stop fretting over Pittsburgh's D. It's about the best in the business at this stage of the season.

[Kaeg]

I agree with the sentiment that we may be giving some up late simply because we have a lead, so we loosen up a little. Maybe a few more games will start to show definitively one way or the other. For now, I'm going with that.

[fansince'76]

Honestly, I don't pay attention to any statistical rankings until at least 10 games into the season. 3 games is too small a sample size to truly accurately gauge where anybody is at statistically. For example, do you really believe the Ravens are only 23rd in run defense? That's where they're currently ranked. One big day by Peyton Hillis is skewing that stat based on the fact that they've only played 3 games to this point. Wait until about week 10 or 11, I'd be willing to bet they'll be top 5 in that category and our ranking in pass D will improve dramatically by then too.

[polamalubeast]

The opposing QB has a QB rating of 68 against the Steelers with only 1 touchdown pass and five interceptions.

In 2009, the Steelers had finished 16th against the pass, but the Steelers have given 22 touchdown passes against only 12 interceptions.

In 2008, the Steelers were given 12 touchdown passes against 20 interceptions.

Sometimes the yards are a misleading stats.

With Polamalu was an excellent defense against the pass!

[SteelerSal]

Hard to have a top 10 pass defense when you have the best run stopping defense....opposing teams are gonna pass more against us.
Our defense is better on the field than than any paper stat shows...take away the garbage prevent at the end of the game and the opposition has half the yardage and points.<----I will sacrifice this for the first 55 minutes of balls to the wall, 110%, high motored defensive output....ANYTIME!

[The Duke]

Sometimes the yards are a misleading stats.

This

I don't care how many they get as long as they don't score more than us

and good point about the TD:INT ratio

[steelpride12]

I can't really worry about that one bit. Sure when teams like the Saint's and other passing teams come to town there could be a good game, but were 3-0 under this defense and that's the most important stat of all! We beat the falcons and shut them down with our D and they are a pass first team, and other than White our secondary had a good enough game to win it. Im not worried stats other than your record shouldn't matter.

[vasteeler]

i think its that damned prevent defense

[GodfatherofSoul]

We're giving up a lot of garbage time yards. I remember thinking that at the end of the Tampa game. Labeau is going prevent at the end of the game and resting starters. Let the backups get game time experience and protect our assets. My only issue is we've cut it a little close (like the Titans getting to within one score). I could care less about statistics.

[CanadianSteel]

Teams cannot run so they pass against us...... also we have also faced some stiff competition the first 2 weeks as both Atlanta and Tits look like solid teams on the offensive side of te ball....

[Craic]

We're giving up a lot of garbage time yards. I remember thinking that at the end of the Tampa game. Labeau is going prevent at the end of the game and resting starters. Let the backups get game time experience and protect our assets. My only issue is we've cut it a little close (like the Titans getting to within one score). I could care less about statistics.

Yes, except in the Titans game, 5 times last year, and in 2 of the three playoffs games (including the SB), the garbage time yards made for a much closer game than it should have been, and put us in danger of losing the game, or we did lose the game.


I agree with everyone that stats themselves really don't matter, nor do they tell the entire truth. I also recognize that if you stop the run, then the ball has to go in the air. However, I WOULD like to see us able to stop the passing in the last 10 minutes of a game, as a lot of teams have come back from 1 or 2 scores down to make it interesting, if not win.

I think THAT, is my major concern.. are we seeing the pattern of last year and the year before continue? Will we keep seeing 55 minutes of unbelievable football, only to see the D get driven on and scored on to tighten or win games in the last 5 minutes.

--And no, I am not talking about the game vs. the Bucs. We had all second stringers who needed to get some work in a game.



FS... Your post makes a lot of sense... maybe 3 games in is too soon to be asking these questions. Stats are an indicator of what happens in on an AVERAGE day. So maybe we do need a few more games to tell the story.

i think its that damned prevent defense

You're dead on right. They don't call it a prevent defense for nothing...it prevents teams from keeping a cushion on the scoreboard and possibly winning games.

[O'Malley]

Yes, except in the Titans game, 5 times last year, and in 2 of the three playoffs games (including the SB), the garbage time yards made for a much closer game than it should have been, and put us in danger of losing the game, or we did lose the game.


I agree with everyone that stats themselves really don't matter, nor do they tell the entire truth. I also recognize that if you stop the run, then the ball has to go in the air. However, I WOULD like to see us able to stop the passing in the last 10 minutes of a game, as a lot of teams have come back from 1 or 2 scores down to make it interesting, if not win.

I think THAT, is my major concern.. are we seeing the pattern of last year and the year before continue? Will we keep seeing 55 minutes of unbelievable football, only to see the D get driven on and scored on to tighten or win games in the last 5 minutes.

--And no, I am not talking about the game vs. the Bucs. We had all second stringers who needed to get some work in a game.



FS... Your post makes a lot of sense... maybe 3 games in is too soon to be asking these questions. Stats are an indicator of what happens in on an AVERAGE day. So maybe we do need a few more games to tell the story.



You're dead on right. They don't call it a prevent defense for nothing...it prevents teams from keeping a cushion on the scoreboard and possibly winning games.

I hate the prevent as well. You hit the nail on the head it prevents you from winning. I would like that part of the playbook file 13'd.

[Craic]

Since Stats can be cherry-picked....

let me share some more stats that I found, that run counter to my earlier questions:

1. While our Pass D. is 5th in allowing the most completions, we are also 7th in attempted passes against us.

2. A better measurement then, may be Net Yards per Attempt, where we sit in 6th place for the LEAST amount of yards per attempt.

3. For first downs given up in passing, we are 19th, just 1 First down under the league average. When that is placed with our 6th place against rushing first downs, it puts us at 9th total.

4. We are also in 1st place with the least points against at 33 points.

5. 6th place in total yards allowed

6. 10th place in average yards per total plays. Respectable.

So these stats mute my original post a bit, but I still have to wonder about letting teams walk down the field late in the game... though now, I think I have completely answered my own question (and a few of you have as well).

The issue is scheme. The cover-2/Prevent that is employed at the end of a game seems to do more damage than good. After all, if a team hasn't been able to drive and score on us all day, why in the WORLD do we then go to a defense that ALLOWS a team to drive and score on us?

I can see two answers. One quite a bit more likely than the other. First, the less-likely one. It is part of LeBeau's scheme to trade points for time, finishing up games. Simply a football version of the time-space continuum. I discount this answer because I can't see ANY DC opting to allow points to be on the board. So my second answer is, Packages. With all the specialized fire-blitz schemes and packages and the personnel that goes along with it, could it be that LeBeau is afraid of being caught with the wrong package on the field in a no-huddle drive? If so, then the prevent defense would look like the unhappy medium. Not good enough to shut down the offense like the previous 55 minutes. Yet, good enough to not allow quick strikes down the field.

I have believe the latter is closer to the answer. Of course, that brings up another host of questions about the danger of having such specialized schemes and players.

[oneforthetoe]

i think its that damned prevent defense

Yes, all fans favorite defense the prevent. While I agree that many teams go to a prevent defense too early in games the prevent is a perfectly legitimate defense in the correct circumstances. Teams just need to pick the correct moment in the game to start instituting it.

I also think the the prevent gets a bad rep because it gets blamed every time a team comes back in a game, even if the defense was not in a prevent. If a team completes passes against the Steelers D in the fourth quarter of a game, while the Steelers are ahead, the first groans are always that we were in a prevent - especially if the Steelers didn't blitz on that particular play.. The fact is we don't blitz on every down in the first quarter either. Sometimes other teams just make plays as well.

Preacher referenced the Super Bowl against the Cards. However, I don't recall any kind of prevent defense permitting the Cards to matriculate the ball down the field on us. The play that changed the game was that long TD play to Fitz. That wasn't the fault of a prevent D. It was simply the Steelers getting beat by two players who will probably end up in the Hall of Fame.

When you hold down and offense like the 2008 Cards, Peyton and the Colts, or Tommy boy's Pats for most of a game, you might have to expect they will eventually be able to make some plays, regardless of the type of scheme that you employ.

So yes, when to "call of the dogs" is not always an easy decision in a game, even for as a master like Lebeau. However, at times it is the correct call to preserve the only thing that matters - the win.

[Craic]

Yes, all fans favorite defense the prevent. While I agree that many teams go to a prevent defense too early in games the prevent is a perfectly legitimate defense in the correct circumstances. Teams just need to pick the correct moment in the game to start instituting it.

I also think the the prevent gets a bad rep because it gets blamed every time a team comes back in a game, even if the defense was not in a prevent. If a team completes passes against the Steelers D in the fourth quarter of a game, while the Steelers are ahead, the first groans are always that we were in a prevent - especially if the Steelers didn't blitz on that particular play.. The fact is we don't blitz on every down in the first quarter either. Sometimes other teams just make plays as well.

Preacher referenced the Super Bowl against the Cards. However, I don't recall any kind of prevent defense permitting the Cards to matriculate the ball down the field on us. The play that changed the game was that long TD play to Fitz. That wasn't the fault of a prevent D. It was simply the Steelers getting beat by two players who will probably end up in the Hall of Fame.

When you hold down and offense like the 2008 Cards, Peyton and the Colts, or Tommy boy's Pats for most of a game, you might have to expect they will eventually be able to make some plays, regardless of the type of scheme that you employ.

So yes, I don't enjoy a prevent defense, but is is necessary at times and not the cause of every negative Steelers' play in the fourth quarter.

I think you are very correct... the prevent does get blamed for a lot, as does the cover-2. I remember some posters screaming about the cover-2 when we had only one safety on the field... or one safety and the other was blitzing. Furthermore, you absolutely correct that in the playoffs, and heck, some of the games last year, it wasn't always the cover-2 that was causing the problems.

Yet, when you look at it this year, it seems to be that the prevent did allow the Titans to drive for a touchdown and almost another one, which would have lost the game for us. For some reason, I can't even remember the first game now... but I think it wasn't the prevent there, which means that we DO have some secondary problems in the passing game.

All in all, the more I think about this, I think FS probably has the right perspective. We have to get at least another 4 games under our belt before we can really start seeing "trends" as opposed to "happenings".

[oneforthetoe]

Yet, when you look at it this year, it seems to be that the prevent did allow the Titans to drive for a touchdown and almost another one, which would have lost the game for us. For some reason, I can't even remember the first game now... but I think it wasn't the prevent there, which means that we DO have some secondary problems in the passing game.

I think you might be correct about the prevent in the Titans game. However, the instituting a prevent in that game may have been a necessity because our D was absolutely exhausted at the end of that game.

[Steel12]

The way this usually works is, a lot of bad teams end up with "good" pass defense stats because they're getting blown out and their opponents start running a lot ... and a lot of good teams end up looking worse than they are against the pass because they get ahead and their opponents start passing a lot. Every year, you end up with a bunch of last-place teams finishing high in the pass defense category.

Look at last year, for example. You had

2. Buffalo (6-10)
3. Denver (8-8)
4. Carolina (8-8)
7. Oakland (5-11)
8. Washington (4-12)
10. Tampa (3-13)

This year, below us, you've got teams like the Colts, Patriots, Bears, Falcons all below us ... Houston is dead last, for that matter. This is one of those stats that can really belie the true story. Though as the season goes on, things do tend to sort themselves out if you legitimately have a good all-around defense, which I believe we do.

Good post...very informative

[steeldevil]

I could not care less how many passing yards we allow... The team with the most passing yards DOES NOT WIN... The team with the most points wins. That is the only defensive statistic that is important to me really... All the other nice stats are just bonuses. I think we are 1st in points allowed so were good.

[polamalubeast]

I could not care less how many passing yards we allow... The team with the most passing yards DOES NOT WIN... The team with the most points wins. That is the only defensive statistic that is important to me really... All the other nice stats are just bonuses. I think we are 1st in points allowed so were good.

True!

As the Titans have given only 21 passing yards against the Steelers and they lost, but they gave 386 passing yards against the Giants and they won!

[Chidi29]

A better indicator would be yards per completion or yards per attempt. With teams not having success running against us, and falling behind in games, especially the Bucs game, they're obviously made them pass more and gain more yards through the air by sheer volume.

As said, the prevent didn't help the stats. We still have the weakness of getting cherry-picked underneath at times. That's just LeBeau's scheme. In a nutshell: Nothing over your head. Force them to put together long drives.

[RushHard34]

Face facts. It's damned rare to have a defense that's at the top in every category worth tracking- sacks, fumbles, INT's, stopping the rush and stopping the pass. As it stands right now, any Steeler fan that is "questioning" their defense needs a psychiatric evaluation. Post-haste.

Right now (and holy shat it pains me to type this), Pittsburgh has the most complete defense in the NFL. Yes, it has some weak points, but every NFL defense does. The Ravens are supposed to be excellent at stopping the rush, but crapola against the pass without Foxworth and Reed. Yet this year they are doing well against passing attacks, yet have yielded some big gains on the ground. I really don't expect Mendenhall to go over 100 yards, but you never know.

Anyway, stop fretting over Pittsburgh's D. It's about the best in the business at this stage of the season.

^^^ This

[pepsyman1]

Preacher you actually just recently answered my questions about this and our pass coverage within the 3-4 scheme we run and how far off our corners play. I think what we are currently seeing through most of the game is pretty normal for our defense but I'm really concerned at why LeBeau chooses to go so soft and stop blitzing at the end of the last couple of games. They have been extremely soft with the cushions they've given the wide receivers at the end of both games and given up big chunks of yardage. I don't remember our team ever having great stats in terms of passes defended. (most of our interceptions on defense usually DON"T come from our cornerbacks) The one thing that I would really like to see is for our cornerbacks to shorten their cushion just a little bit. Instead of playing 8-12 yards off, how about 6-7 yards off. That's still enough room to keep an eye on the run and have space to react to it. It would give them a better opportunity to challenge some of the passes and not require a herculean effort to get an interception.

[Craic]

Preacher you actually just recently answered my questions about this and our pass coverage within the 3-4 scheme we run and how far off our corners play. I think what we are currently seeing through most of the game is pretty normal for our defense but I'm really concerned at why LeBeau chooses to go so soft and stop blitzing at the end of the last couple of games. They have been extremely soft with the cushions they've given the wide receivers at the end of both games and given up big chunks of yardage. I don't remember our team ever having great stats in terms of passes defended. (most of our interceptions on defense usually DON"T come from our cornerbacks) The one thing that I would really like to see is for our cornerbacks to shorten their cushion just a little bit. Instead of playing 8-12 yards off, how about 6-7 yards off. That's still enough room to keep an eye on the run and have space to react to it. It would give them a better opportunity to challenge some of the passes and not require a herculean effort to get an interception.

True, but when we do move to a prevent, the key is to not allow ANYONE to get behind you AT ANY TIME. That is why they move even further back. So that every offensive player, when they catch the ball, has to run TOWARDS their opponent, instead of away from them.