Ward says you ‘can’t compare’ his stats to AB’s

[steelreserve]

Bubble Screens!!!

Oh how I hate them.

Perhaps getting off topic but - I think they can work if used with the right kind of player, which we rarely do.

Like - the best guy on the team for that kind of play is not always your best WR. For us, it would probably work a lot better with a shifty little bastard like Ryan Switzer than a WR like Brown.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Perhaps getting off topic but - I think they can work if used with the right kind of player, which we rarely do.

Like - the best guy on the team for that kind of play is not always your best WR. For us, it would probably work a lot better with a shifty little bastard like Ryan Switzer than a WR like Brown.

I agree, but in addition to a guy with RAC ability, I think you really need some good blocking WR's, or a TE that is going to get out in space and block.

Putting 3 guys on one side is gonna cause a defensive overload and putting Switzer split out too wide is gonna tip off the screen, IMO. I think Dionte Johnson can be good for bubble screens, with Washington blocking and either McDonald or Rosie Nix from a H-back alignment getting out to block.

[Butch]

I read all of that.

AB was still a better receiver, and I honestly believe you would have said the same thing this time last year. I don’t think you’d be taking into consideration all these factors in Ward’s favor then. It wouldn’t even be thought.

If none Steelers fans would be watching us say Ward was better than AB they’d call us crazy.

And I’m not trying to insult anyone. I don’t blame you one bit for liking Ward more than AB. We probably all pretty much do now. But such is the way of fandom.

Was Hines Ward better than say Cris Carter? I think Carter comes out better.

Was AB better than Chris Carter? I say AB was more talented with more production through 8 years of their careers?

I’ll take AB every time

Please don't take this wrong but I think you are letting your emotions get the best of you.

You have no idea now nor have you in the past had any idea of what I may or may not be thinking at any time, so stop trying to make it seem like you do.

I have stuck up for Hines many times and have also been called "crazy" for doing so, but it's what he brings to the table and I appreciate what he did. He was a much different WR then Carter and even AB but he went above and beyond in doing his job.

Call me crazy if you must but give me Ward all day any day baby!!!

[Hawkman]

Can we please get real about the "Hines Ward was productive with Tomczak, Graham, Kordell, etc".

1999 Tomczak and Stewart are QB and Ward has 638 receiving yards
2000 Graham and Stewart are QB and Ward has 672 yards
2001 Kordell Stewart has a pro bowl season and Ward has 1,003 yards
2002 Stewart and Maddox combine for 4000 yards and Ward has 1300 yards

So when Kevin Gilbride gets the boot after 2000 and Mularkey throws the football more starting in 2001....the Steelers put up more passing numbers and Ward gets more receiving yardage. Nothing that shocking if you remember being a fan back then.

Two different types of WR's. Two different time periods. One known for big plays, the other known for being reliable receiver and knocking out Keith Rivers, Ed Reed, etc.

Sorry, not really sure what you are saying here...as related to the topic. Not a criticism, just wondering.

[Butch]

Can we please get real about the "Hines Ward was productive with Tomczak, Graham, Kordell, etc".

1999 Tomczak and Stewart are QB and Ward has 638 receiving yards
2000 Graham and Stewart are QB and Ward has 672 yards
2001 Kordell Stewart has a pro bowl season and Ward has 1,003 yards
2002 Stewart and Maddox combine for 4000 yards and Ward has 1300 yards

So when Kevin Gilbride gets the boot after 2000 and Mularkey throws the football more starting in 2001....the Steelers put up more passing numbers and Ward gets more receiving yardage. Nothing that shocking if you remember being a fan back then.

Two different types of WR's. Two different time periods. One known for big plays, the other known for being reliable receiver and knocking out Keith Rivers, Ed Reed, etc.

Yes productive, he was a possession WR on a run heavy team. Not the quickest, but if you needed a 1st down he was Money.

Hines Big plays were not the same as the ones that most WRs have. As you stated he knocked players out and that was an emotional boost all in it's own way. How many times did a team get fired up when a defender put a helmet on a guy, and now you have some little WR doing that?!?!?! Oh and he could take as well as he received he would take the hit and still get up with a smile on his face. He may not have popped up but he did get up and that smile was always there.

I agree with you that you can't compare the 2 they were as different as night and day.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Sorry, not really sure what you are saying here...as related to the topic. Not a criticism, just wondering.

The position was made that Ward was productive with Tomczak, Maddox, Stewart, Kent Graham. While AB had Ben as his only QB and that is the reason for some of his success.

I was pointing out that Ward had mediocre receiving stats with Tomczak, Kent Graham, Kordell. Also that his best seasons with QB's not named Ben came when Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddox had career seasons in Mike Mularkey offenses.

Cant really lean on the crutch that Hines Ward had productive years with poor QB's, when that really wasn't the case. That is how it relates to the topic.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with you that you can't compare the 2 they were as different as night and day.

I agree. Its like a Glenfarclas scotch, compared to a Lagavulin scotch. Both are very good, but both very different tastes.

For me, AB is the better WR, while Hines was the better team player.

[steelreserve]

I agree, but in addition to a guy with RAC ability, I think you really need some good blocking WR's, or a TE that is going to get out in space and block.

Putting 3 guys on one side is gonna cause a defensive overload and putting Switzer split out too wide is gonna tip off the screen, IMO. I think Dionte Johnson can be good for bubble screens, with Washington blocking and either McDonald or Rosie Nix from a H-back alignment getting out to block.

Yeah, I mean you need better execution than we've had for sure ... throwing the ball to your best WR and hoping he can just fake out 4 guys by himself from a flat-footed start is not really going to work very often no matter how good your receiver is. Unless you get lucky and the defender falls down or something, which is the 1 out of 50.

I agree. Its like a Glenfarclas scotch, compared to a Lagavulin scotch. Both are very good, but both very different tastes.

For me, AB is the better WR, while Hines was the better team player.

Also true, but I would say it's more like a 40 oz. of Olde English "800" compared with a 40 oz. of King Cobra. They both taste like shit, but they're cheap and they get you fucked up, and if you drink a couple of them you'll have a hell of a time even staggering off to bed, and then all of a sudden you wake up in a stranger's bathroom with your arm down the toilet, and find out your car got towed and you're late for work, and you wonder what the hell you're doing with your life. I forget what this has to do with football, but both of those guys probably drank some 40's in their day.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Also true, but I would say it's more like a 40 oz. of Olde English "800" compared with a 40 oz. of King Cobra. They both taste like shit, but they're cheap and they get you fucked up, and if you drink a couple of them you'll have a hell of a time even staggering off to bed, and then all of a sudden you wake up in a stranger's bathroom with your arm down the toilet, and find out your car got towed and you're late for work, and you wonder what the hell you're doing with your life. I forget what this has to do with football, but both of those guys probably drank some 40's in their day.

[teegre]

As far as Ward’s early career goes...

Couldn’t his lack of “vertical” plays be explained by having shitty QBs for four seasons? As in: if Ward has had Ben for all of his career, couldn’t it be possible that he’d have the same ratio (“one 45+ TD per season”) as AB did?

As in: Ward played with Ben for only 7 season. AB played with Ben for 8 seasons.



As far as drinking analogies go...

AB is the private table with Grey Goose. First of all, it’s expensive (and gaudy). Despite numerous girls hanging around (stats), at the end of the night... the girls all leave & one sleeps alone.

Ward is the corner stool at the local bar, where one has to use their charm and charisma to get girls to even “hang around”. While not as many girls are “hanging around”, you do indeed hook up with 2 of them.

SUMMATION:
“Sam, I’ll have the usual...”

[Hawkman]

Yeah, I mean you need better execution than we've had for sure ... throwing the ball to your best WR and hoping he can just fake out 4 guys by himself from a flat-footed start is not really going to work very often no matter how good your receiver is. Unless you get lucky and the defender falls down or something, which is the 1 out of 50.






Also true, but I would say it's more like a 40 oz. of Olde English "800" compared with a 40 oz. of King Cobra. They both taste like shit, but they're cheap and they get you fucked up, and if you drink a couple of them you'll have a hell of a time even staggering off to bed, and then all of a sudden you wake up in a stranger's bathroom with your arm down the toilet, and find out your car got towed and you're late for work, and you wonder what the hell you're doing with your life. I forget what this has to do with football, but both of those guys probably drank some 40's in their day.

Hmmmmm, with those details, sounds like you’ve had some experience.

[steelreserve]

As far as drinking analogies go...

AB is the private table with Grey Goose. First of all, it’s expensive (and gaudy). Despite numerous girls hanging around (stats), at the end of the night... the girls all leave & one sleeps alone.

Ward is the corner stool at the local bar, where one has to use their charm and charisma to get girls to even “hang around”. While not as many girls are “hanging around”, you do indeed hook up with 2 of them.

SUMMATION:
“Sam, I’ll have the usual...”

As far as bar hookup analogies go ...

Brown is the hot chick with the huge rack, who is a total bitch to everyone, but you go up and ask her for her number, and before she can tell you off, you pull out a $100 bill and ask her to write it on that, so she actually gives you her number ... then you go home with her and you're making out, and just when you think everything's going perfectly, there it is: A DICK. So you barf all over her, and s/he barfs all over you, and you run away as fast as you can, and then you realize your clothes are ruined and she still has the $100, and in fact, you left your wallet and car keys there too, but you just want to get the hell away from there so you keep on running. Then when your buddies ask about it later, you go, "Yeah, uh, we had an ok time, she's nice" and then never talk about it again.

Whereas Ward is the burly bearded guy in a baseball cap, and it's very clear from the start that he has A DICK, but that's fine because you're just hanging out watching the game, not trying to hook up with him, and it turns out he knows a lot about gambling. He is also the guy who carved "BROWN GIVES GOOD HEAD" into the wall above the men's room crapper.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Hines Ward is way better than AB.

need proof?

Hines won Dancing with the Stars.

AB didn't even make it to the finals...

[hawaiiansteeler]

Also true, but I would say it's more like a 40 oz. of Olde English "800" compared with a 40 oz. of King Cobra. They both taste like shit, but they're cheap and they get you fucked up, and if you drink a couple of them you'll have a hell of a time even staggering off to bed, and then all of a sudden you wake up in a stranger's bathroom with your arm down the toilet, and find out your car got towed and you're late for work, and you wonder what the hell you're doing with your life. I forget what this has to do with football, but both of those guys probably drank some 40's in their day.

[HollywoodSteel]

Please don't take this wrong but I think you are letting your emotions get the best of you.

You have no idea now nor have you in the past had any idea of what I may or may not be thinking at any time, so stop trying to make it seem like you do.

I have stuck up for Hines many times and have also been called "crazy" for doing so, but it's what he brings to the table and I appreciate what he did. He was a much different WR then Carter and even AB but he went above and beyond in doing his job.

Call me crazy if you must but give me Ward all day any day baby!!!

I don’t think you’re crazy. And I apologize if I said anything insulting. It wasn’t my intention. I’m trying to understand what you’re thinking, no more. But unless I try to assign your words meaning, what’s the point of discussion? I appreciate you correcting me if I misinterpret you.

Iam being misinterpreted if you believe there is any emotion driving my point of view. From an emotional stand point, my heart is forever with Ward over AB. No question.

From a mere football point of view, I do believe I’m also not crazy to consider AB to be objectively better than Ward was.

Yes, Hines Ward was very different than AB. Yes, he brought things to the table that AB doesn’t.

If I you inferred that I think you’re crazy for those opinions, you are mistaken.

I’m only engaging with you to better UNDERSTAND your opinion. Not to convince you that you’re wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Hines Ward is way better than AB.

need proof?

Hines won Dancing with the Stars.

AB didn't even make it to the finals...

Finally! Objective proof!

Color me convinced.

FWIW, didn’t AB go on some show where he had to sing with a donkey head on or something?

I think it might have been called The Biggest Jack Ass.

[HollywoodSteel]

As far as bar hookup analogies go ...

Brown is the hot chick with the huge rack, who is a total bitch to everyone, but you go up and ask her for her number, and before she can tell you off, you pull out a $100 bill and ask her to write it on that, so she actually gives you her number ... then you go home with her and you're making out, and just when you think everything's going perfectly, there it is: A DICK. So you barf all over her, and s/he barfs all over you, and you run away as fast as you can, and then you realize your clothes are ruined and she still has the $100, and in fact, you left your wallet and car keys there too, but you just want to get the hell away from there so you keep on running. Then when your buddies ask about it later, you go, "Yeah, uh, we had an ok time, she's nice" and then never talk about it again.

Whereas Ward is the burly bearded guy in a baseball cap, and it's very clear from the start that he has A DICK, but that's fine because you're just hanging out watching the game, not trying to hook up with him, and it turns out he knows a lot about gambling. He is also the guy who carved "BROWN GIVES GOOD HEAD" into the wall above the men's room crapper.

And don’t forget. Ward was the better cock-blocker.

Now it makes sense to me.

[steelreserve]

And don’t forget. Ward was the better cock-blocker.

Now it makes sense to me.

Yeah, and by the way, did you see that huge fight at Disneyland the other day? I told you shit was gonna go down if I didn't get my shit-eating dog movie. Instead they waste their time farting around with the Little Mermaid and crap. You better tell them to get their ass in gear.

[Six Rings]

Brown had a better OL, meaning he had more time to break free of his routes and hit a big play.

[86WARD]

Perhaps getting off topic but - I think they can work if used with the right kind of player, which we rarely do.

Like - the best guy on the team for that kind of play is not always your best WR. For us, it would probably work a lot better with a shifty little bastard like Ryan Switzer than a WR like Brown.

Eli Rogers would be a good option there. It’s funny cause Ward is probably the worst option ever for that play...lol

[86WARD]

As far as Ward’s early career goes...

Couldn’t his lack of “vertical” plays be explained by having shitty QBs for four seasons? As in: if Ward has had Ben for all of his career, couldn’t it be possible that he’d have the same ratio (“one 45+ TD per season”) as AB did?

As in: Ward played with Ben for only 7 season. AB played with Ben for 8 seasons.



As far as drinking analogies go...

AB is the private table with Grey Goose. First of all, it’s expensive (and gaudy). Despite numerous girls hanging around (stats), at the end of the night... the girls all leave & one sleeps alone.

Ward is the corner stool at the local bar, where one has to use their charm and charisma to get girls to even “hang around”. While not as many girls are “hanging around”, you do indeed hook up with 2 of them.

SUMMATION:
“Sam, I’ll have the usual...”

I don’t know.............AB has a lotta baby momma’s...

[DesertSteel]

How can you compare the 14 year tenure of Hines Ward to the 9 year tenure of Antonio Brown as equal? If we extrapolate Brown over a similar 14 year career, then he would have 14 long TD's.

I think if we look at receptions of 40+ yards and compare Ward to Brown, we will see what we all know. That Ward wasn't known for the long ball or running away from a lot of defenders, where Brown had the speed and elusiveness to generate plays of 40+ yards more frequently.

Yeah but I think Moss had 9 in the first half against the Cowboys his rookie year.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Yeah but I think Moss had 9 in the first half against the Cowboys his rookie year.

John Kuhn would have had 10.

[hawaiiansteeler]

John Kuhn would have had 10.

by halftime

[Dwinsgames]

Ward has a big time lead in number of souls destroyed. AB = not one.

I woulda loved to see Hines and Juju in their prime playing in the mid 2000's when crackbacks were legal lol. DB's would fear that offense. Juju might have even been more nasty. That hit he laid on Burfict, I'm not sure Ward could have pulled that off as well. Juju does have like 20 lbs on Ward.

IDK ... Love what JuJu does and I was the first guy here to compare him to Ward ( on his draft day ) that said wake me up when he breaks someone Jaw ..... Ward did just that on a crack back block ( ironically also vs a Bengal )

[Fire Goodell]

IDK ... Love what JuJu does and I was the first guy here to compare him to Ward ( on his draft day ) that said wake me up when he breaks someone Jaw ..... Ward did just that on a crack back block ( ironically also vs a Bengal )

He definitely could break some jaws, but with today's rules that will get you suspended and out of the league, doing it with the frequency that Hines did. Heck later in his career when they started outlawing those hits, i thought the NFL was trying to rename him to Fines Ward Heck, Ward and Harrison receiving fines from the league seemed to be a weekly occurence.

I honestly think Juju knew he'd get flagged before that hit even happened, but he noticed it was #55 for the Bengals and it was warranted. Getting a 15 yard penalty and suspension sucks, but in this case, 1000% worth it!