Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

[polamalubeast]

Topic Statement: The Steelers have a chronic problem of hanging onto investments too long.

Explanation: This is a common argument that has been around for a long time now. The Steelers have had a tendency to bring veterans back for an extended period of time, and younger players without high pedigree have struggled to crack the lineup. Some have argued that their attachment to experienced players has prevented them from searching for better solutions.

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https://steelersdepot.com/2019/06/bu...o-of-a-player/

[steelreserve]

I don't buy the part about veterans like Troy, A. Smith, Farrior, and the like. That was more like, "we think these guys still have enough in the tank to help us, and we will take the chance on that." And they had to give contracts a year or two longer than they probably should have, due to trying to squeeze everything in under the cap.

On the other hand, not having a backup plan for once those guys retired was inexcusable. Especially in the case of Ike Taylor.

We do have a problem with getting hung up on high draft picks and giving certain players like Cough Dupree Cough waaaaaay too many chances to "prove themselves" after it's already painfully clear what they are. Like - you knew what it was when you drafted the guy, it was a big gamble and it didn't pay off. Accept that and move on.

*takes bite of sandwich*

"Yuck, that tastes like dogshit!"

*takes another bite*

"Yeah, that's dogshit."

*takes another bite*

"Yup, definitely dogshit."

*takes another bite*

"Still dogshit."

...

"You know, Mr. Rooney, maybe you should consider throwing that out and getting a different sandwich."

"SHUT UP, I PAID FOR IT! I'M FINISHING THIS!"

"But Mr. Rooney--" (sigh) "You know what, it's fine. I'll just get a pizza. ... Well, it's a footlong, guess we'll be here for a while."

[Edman]

I don't buy the part about veterans like Troy, A. Smith, Farrior, and the like. That was more like, "we think these guys still have enough in the tank to help us, and we will take the chance on that." And they had to give contracts a year or two longer than they probably should have, due to trying to squeeze everything in under the cap.

On the other hand, not having a backup plan for once those guys retired was inexcusable. Especially in the case of Ike Taylor.

We do have a problem with getting hung up on high draft picks and giving certain players like Cough Dupree Cough waaaaaay too many chances to "prove themselves" after it's already painfully clear what they are. Like - you knew what it was when you drafted the guy, it was a big gamble and it didn't pay off. Accept that and move on.

*takes bite of sandwich*

"Yuck, that tastes like dogshit!"

*takes another bite*

"Yeah, that's dogshit."

*takes another bite*

"Yup, definitely dogshit."

*takes another bite*

"Still dogshit."

...

"You know, Mr. Rooney, maybe you should consider throwing that out and getting a different sandwich."

"SHUT UP, I PAID FOR IT! I'M FINISHING THIS!"

"But Mr. Rooney--" (sigh) "You know what, it's fine. I'll just get a pizza. ... Well, it's a footlong, guess we'll be here for a while."

Lamarr Woodley's hamstring created this mess. Sometimes, a really bad break comes your way. No one expected Woodley to fall off a cliff after 2011.

Firing the cut gun on a player who doesn't develop by Year 3 results in reaches like Jarvis Jones and Bud Dupree to begin with. The Steelers panicked on Worilds and Woodley's sudden downturn in 2012-13 and fired a shot on Jones, when Jones didnt get it together, they reached for Dupree instead.

This is why the Steelers are biting on crappy sandwiches. To stop the bleeding. Now they have a T.J Watt, who finally made Harrison expendable. Now, someone will come along to make Dupree expendable. Ola Adeniyi and Sutton Smith perhaps?

[steelreserve]

Lamarr Woodley's hamstring created this mess. Sometimes, a really bad break comes your way. No one expected Woodley to fall off a cliff after 2011.

Firing the cut gun on a player who doesn't develop by Year 3 results in reaches like Jarvis Jones and Bud Dupree to begin with. The Steelers panicked on Worilds and Woodley's sudden downturn in 2012-13 and fired a shot on Jones, when Jones didnt get it together, they reached for Dupree instead.

This is why the Steelers are biting on crappy sandwiches. To stop the bleeding. Now they have a T.J Watt, who finally made Harrison expendable. Now, someone will come along to make Dupree expendable. Ola Adeniyi and Sutton Smith perhaps?

Nah, I think Woodley was a case of a guy who did well when he wasn't the center of the defense, but wasn't cut out to be a primary playmaker, so when we tried to use him that way, he fell flat. The hamstring was just a coincidence.

He was still better than Dupree or Jones or Worilds, who were more like barely passable when other good players were around them, totally worthless when asked to take the leading role.

I 100% agree all three of those picks were reaches, panic picks, or otherwise forcing it somehow - but I don't think the reason for that was because we cut other guys too early.

If you have a bad player, you just have a bad player, and there is no scenario in which keeping him helps you. So if you can see that, you are far better off just cutting him on the spot, not wringing your hands over who is going to take his place (he's bad, you won't do any worse), or holding on to some wishful thinking fantasy that he's finally going to live up to his potential. That just costs you money or keeps you from really addressing the problem.

T.J. Watt is what made Dupree expendable. No one needs to "come along" to do that. Plug in either of the guys you mentioned opposite Watt, and they will almost certainly exceed anything Dupree ever did. Life is a lot easier when the offense is focused on the guy on the opposite side of you. It'd be a shame if that fools us into thinking Dupree is actually improving.

[polamalubeast]

It's true that sometimes the steelers keep their old players too long

I can understand in the case like Hines Ward or James Farrior since the steelers had been in the super bowl the year before, but the season of Polamalu and Ike Taylor in 2014 was painful and sad to watch.

I hope that will not be the case for Roethlisberger too ... I think he has still at least 2-3 good years ahead of him but I would not want to see Ben being bad as the Manning brothers were at the end of their career (last 2 years for Peyton and since at least 2016 for Eli)

[munchy]

im sure there are several instances where they steelers hung on to a player a year or 2 longer than they should have. whether they did so out of desperation, loyalty, cap reasons or just lack of proper player evaluation/management. i guess i would like to see how we compare to other teams to see if this has hurt really hurt us
the ones that bother me are the mcculler types. this guy sucks. to believe that his production/contribution couldnt be replaced by someone makes me scratch my head

[hawaiiansteeler]

the ones that bother me are the mcculler types. this guy sucks. to believe that his production/contribution couldnt be replaced by someone makes me scratch my head

how much production/contribution to you get from the 6th DL on a team that only starts 3 DL?

[munchy]

how much production/contribution to you get from the 6th DL on a team that only starts 3 DL?

apparently enough production for the steelers to pay him a new 2 year 2.75 million dollar contract

- - - Updated - - -

Nah, I think Woodley was a case of a guy who did well when he wasn't the center of the defense, but wasn't cut out to be a primary playmaker, so when we tried to use him that way, he fell flat. The hamstring was just a coincidence.

He was still better than Dupree or Jones, who were more like barely passable when other good players were around them, totally worthless when asked to take the leading role.

I 100% agree all three of those picks were reaches, panic picks, or otherwise forcing it somehow - but I don't think the reason for that was because we cut other guys too early.

If you have a bad player, you just have a bad player, and there is no scenario in which keeping him helps you. So if you can see that, you are far better off just cutting him on the spot, not wringing your hands over who is going to take his place (he's bad, you won't do any worse), or holding on to some wishful thinking fantasy that he's finally going to live up to his potential. That just costs you money or keeps you from really addressing the problem.

T.J. Watt is what made Dupree expendable. No one needs to "come along" to do that. Plug in either of the guys you mentioned opposite Watt, and they will almost certainly exceed anything Dupree ever did. Life is a lot easier when the offense is focused on the guy on the opposite side of you. It'd be a shame if that fools us into thinking Dupree is actually improving.

i think woodley got that fat contract and then mailed it in
when the coach makes it public that woodley wasnt working hard, kinda tells a lot
but i do think if he worked to stay in shape he could have went down as one of the greats

[steelreserve]

how much production/contribution to you get from the 6th DL on a team that only starts 3 DL?

Those are the players you throw out in the hope that whoever you get instead will compete to be the 3rd DL on that line.

Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but the last guy off the bench is not a place where you look for "stability" and target with a multi-year contract. Those roster spots are for your lottery tickets.

[Born2Steel]

The thread title made me think immediately of Burns. Have the Steelers ever just cut a 1st round draft pick during his rookie contract? I actually think this may happen. The Steelers brought in FA Nelson and drafted Layne this offseason. I think that makes both of those guys locks to make the 53 barring injury or something strange happening. Also on that list are most likely Haden, Hilton, and Sutton. That would put a 6th CB option of Burns or Allen. I know Burns was selected in the 1st but if I had to make that choice I would keep Allen. How do you guys see this play out?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

The thread title made me think immediately of Burns. Have the Steelers ever just cut a 1st round draft pick during his rookie contract? I actually think this may happen. The Steelers brought in FA Nelson and drafted Layne this offseason. I think that makes both of those guys locks to make the 53 barring injury or something strange happening. Also on that list are most likely Haden, Hilton, and Sutton. That would put a 6th CB option of Burns or Allen. I know Burns was selected in the 1st but if I had to make that choice I would keep Allen. How do you guys see this play out?

I think Burns gets the Jarvis Jones treatment, because he is so much better an athlete than Jones ever was and they kept his slow and unproductive butt around. The CB room is deeper than the OLB room was, but I still think Artie makes it to camp and unless he just stinks it up, he make the 53

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Why do we have to keep buy and sale ? What's up with That ?

[Six Rings]

I'm buying. At tiles the Steelers hang on to past their prime players, and over pay them and get stuck on a bad contract, with a costly cut.

Other times they are too willing to re-sign divas or bad character types.

I think the Steelers have learned not to gamble on the bad character types.

[st33lersguy]

Buying. This is the same team that recently let Antwon Blake start a full season and let Cam Thomas stay on the roster for 2 seasons despite being utterly useless. The same goes for coaches

[pczach]

I think they have made a few mistakes along the way, but some of you guys make it sound like they are clueless.

I really don't understand how some of you can explain how they win football games with your opinions on the team's decision-making. The way you paint it, this organization should be lucky to win 4-5 games a year.....and clearly that's not the case.

[steelreserve]

I really don't understand how some of you can explain how they win football games with your opinions on the team's decision-making.

Hall of Fame quarterback

[pczach]

Hall of Fame quarterback

They had a couple years where the roster really was that bad while rebuilding after the 2011 season. Without Ben you would have seen that type of record, but I think overall they have had pretty good talent most years.

Since Roethlisberger has been with the team, his backup quarterbacks have won about half the games they started.

This upcoming season is going to tell us a lot about the state of the Steelers roster and coaching staff.

[steelreserve]

They had a couple years where the roster really was that bad while rebuilding after the 2011 season. Without Ben you would have seen that type of record, but I think overall they have had pretty good talent most years.

Since Roethlisberger has been with the team, his backup quarterbacks have won about half the games they started.

This upcoming season is going to tell us a lot about the state of the Steelers roster and coaching staff.

They've done ok, but they get a huge head start by having Ben. What I do not understand is how they consistently have unsolved problems on defense, and they are the same problems. Going on 10 years now.

[Craic]

They've done ok, but they get a huge head start by having Ben. What I do not understand is how they consistently have unsolved problems on defense, and they are the same problems. Going on 10 years now.

The question, then, is do other teams have the same problems? Is this a league-wide issue spawned by rule changes and offensive scheming changes? Here's a telling stat. Of the fifteen QBs with the most 4th Quarter comeback in NFL history, almost half of them are active today. Matthew Stafford, Eli Manning, and Matt Ryan all have 26. Drew Brees has 28, Ben R. has 29, Tom Brady has 34, and Peyton Manning leads everyone with 43 (played through 2016). We can break this down another way as well. Matt Ryan led 4th quarter comebacks in almost 1 out of every five games he played, and Romo and Stafford are not that far behind him. The QBs with game winning drives starts with Ryan at almost 28 percent of career games ending with game winning drives. Ben R. is second with 22.1 percent and Stafford is just behind with 22 percent. Manning and Brady are 21.5 and 21.7 percent, respectively. When you look at the career QB passer ratings, the top 10 of 11 QBs on the list are active or retired during our current DB problem streak. And, that list extends to 19 of the top 23 QBs.

So, I'd argue the league has unsolved problems on the defensive side of the ball right now. Only a few teams have been able to manage it. Seattle could because they were in a very unique situation with a coach that knew college players extremely well. The Pats,* to this day, are most-likely still cheating as is their wont. The Jags were good for one year on defense.

Now, does that mean the Steelers coaches and players are excused for the defensive performances? No. Not that they were terrible, but they seem to always have breakdowns at the worst time. Interesting, the defense really took a turn for the worst, however, when Timmons was let go (age, contract) and Shazier was injured.

[munchy]

They had a couple years where the roster really was that bad while rebuilding after the 2011 season. Without Ben you would have seen that type of record, but I think overall they have had pretty good talent most years.

Since Roethlisberger has been with the team, his backup quarterbacks have won about half the games they started.

This upcoming season is going to tell us a lot about the state of the Steelers roster and coaching staff.

im waiting for ben to retire or tomlin to switch teams before i can evaluate how great of a coach tomlin and his staff are

[pczach]

im waiting for ben to retire or tomlin to switch teams before i can evaluate how great of a coach tomlin and his staff are

You might have to wait awhile.

I know that many will never believe Tomlin can coach until that happens. Maybe we will get to see it.

Hopefully, the team has some real success in the next year or two so that the question can already be answered before Ben leaves. If not, Tomlin may not be here much longer.

[HollywoodSteel]

Historically I think the Steelers have done a good job of letting players go and allowing other teams to over pay for our former stars like Fanneca, Wallace, Porter, etc.

[polamalubeast]

I like Colbert a lot like as GM, but if he has a weakness it is to know when decided to let a player go.

Sometimes it's easy to say after like in the case of Bell and Brown but in the case of the old players(Polamalu,Ike Taylor,etc) or the horrible players(Jarvis Jones or other), sometimes Colbert needs to let this player more quickly.

[Born2Steel]

To go along with this thread topic what are the thoughts on contract extensions for Haden and Hilton? Both have said the want new contracts. Both have played well. Both will need to be replaced in the next 3-5 years. 2yr deals for each? 3years? And at what price? CB contracts are expensive. Nelson signed for something like 7M-8M didn’t he? And Haden is currently at 11M? Apparently we still need a TE or 2, plus safeties aren’t cheap either. And this could very well be Bud’s last year so in the market for a starting caliber OLB too. Any thoughts?

[teegre]

To go along with this thread topic what are the thoughts on contract extensions for Haden and Hilton? Both have said the want new contracts. Both have played well. Both will need to be replaced in the next 3-5 years. 2yr deals for each? 3years? And at what price? CB contracts are expensive. Nelson signed for something like 7M-8M didn’t he? And Haden is currently at 11M? Apparently we still need a TE or 2, plus safeties aren’t cheap either. And this could very well be Bud’s last year so in the market for a starting caliber OLB too. Any thoughts?

Re-sign Haden. One more year at CB, and then switch him to FS.

Hilton was on his way to be the best slot CB in the league, but then he tapered off. Sutton has supposedly made Hilton expendable. One of them needs to be re-signed.

[Born2Steel]

Re-sign Haden. One more year at CB, and then switch him to FS.

Hilton was on his way to be the best slot CB in the league, but then he tapered off. Sutton has supposedly made Hilton expendable. One of them needs to be re-signed.

I think the switch to FS for Haden is inevitable. Haden has even said that much. I think I’m reading into your post that Davis’ contract is up after next season so the perfect time to make the ‘Haden to FS switch’. Is a FS contract more team friendly than a CB contract? I don’t know.

Hilton is only 25. I would at least try to work out a 2 year deal. I have been a huge fan of Sutton since his draft but of the 2 I think Hilton has performed better and more consistently. Wasn’t Nelson predominantly a slot guy that could play outside? There’s always that leverage for the team with contract negotiations too.

[teegre]

I think the switch to FS for Haden is inevitable. Haden has even said that much. I think I’m reading into your post that Davis’ contract is up after next season so the perfect time to make the ‘Haden to FS switch’. Is a FS contract more team friendly than a CB contract? I don’t know.

Hilton is only 25. I would at least try to work out a 2 year deal. I have been a huge fan of Sutton since his draft but of the 2 I think Hilton has performed better and more consistently. Wasn’t Nelson predominantly a slot guy that could play outside? There’s always that leverage for the team with contract negotiations too.

I really liked Sean Davis; I was certain that he’d be a very good FS. But then, he regressed (albeit he is currently on his way back up). His agent is known for asking for “big” money, and I’m not sure we can gamble on Davis continuing to progress.

As far as Hilton & Sutton go, I think they'll extend one, but not both. It’s akin to Wallace & AB. Hilton has easily outperformed Sutton, but Sutton has the higher ceiling. It’ll depend on the pre-season (because, contract negotiations cease once the regular season starts).

[polamalubeast]

To go along with this thread topic what are the thoughts on contract extensions for Haden and Hilton? Both have said the want new contracts. Both have played well. Both will need to be replaced in the next 3-5 years. 2yr deals for each? 3years? And at what price? CB contracts are expensive. Nelson signed for something like 7M-8M didn’t he? And Haden is currently at 11M? Apparently we still need a TE or 2, plus safeties aren’t cheap either. And this could very well be Bud’s last year so in the market for a starting caliber OLB too. Any thoughts?

Good question ... I do not know but it's up to the steelers to judge that ... After the last season, I wanted the steelers to make a fire sale but I think it would have been a bad idea .... but a bad season in 2019, it's going to be the time ....

[HollywoodSteel]

I think we extend Haden. I’m not sure if that helps or hurts with our current cap situation.

I really like Hilton and think it would be nice to give him a deal if we can afford it. With AB’s dead money coming off the books next year do we just wait until the end of the season? Or will we lose him to FA if we do that?

Hopefully Layne proves himself this year and we go into 2020 with a stable of quality CBs.

[86WARD]

I think we extend Haden. I’m not sure if that helps or hurts with our current cap situation.

I really like Hilton and think it would be nice to give him a deal if we can afford it. With AB’s dead money coming off the books next year do we just wait until the end of the season? Or will we lose him to FA if we do that?

Hopefully Layne proves himself this year and we go into 2020 with a stable of quality CBs.

Is Hilton signed for 2019? Did he even signed the tender yet?

If they let Haden go, they would need multiple people to step up in a big way. At this stage, with the unknown, there’s no way they can’t re-sign Haden. Obviously there’s still a lot of time in between now and then and a lot can or cannot happen. But if everything were to stand pat, they’d have no choice but to re-sign Haden.