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Thread: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

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    Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Topic Statement: The Steelers have a chronic problem of hanging onto investments too long.

    Explanation: This is a common argument that has been around for a long time now. The Steelers have had a tendency to bring veterans back for an extended period of time, and younger players without high pedigree have struggled to crack the lineup. Some have argued that their attachment to experienced players has prevented them from searching for better solutions.

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    https://steelersdepot.com/2019/06/bu...o-of-a-player/

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    I don't buy the part about veterans like Troy, A. Smith, Farrior, and the like. That was more like, "we think these guys still have enough in the tank to help us, and we will take the chance on that." And they had to give contracts a year or two longer than they probably should have, due to trying to squeeze everything in under the cap.

    On the other hand, not having a backup plan for once those guys retired was inexcusable. Especially in the case of Ike Taylor.

    We do have a problem with getting hung up on high draft picks and giving certain players like Cough Dupree Cough waaaaaay too many chances to "prove themselves" after it's already painfully clear what they are. Like - you knew what it was when you drafted the guy, it was a big gamble and it didn't pay off. Accept that and move on.

    *takes bite of sandwich*

    "Yuck, that tastes like dogshit!"

    *takes another bite*

    "Yeah, that's dogshit."

    *takes another bite*

    "Yup, definitely dogshit."

    *takes another bite*

    "Still dogshit."

    ...

    "You know, Mr. Rooney, maybe you should consider throwing that out and getting a different sandwich."

    "SHUT UP, I PAID FOR IT! I'M FINISHING THIS!"

    "But Mr. Rooney--" (sigh) "You know what, it's fine. I'll just get a pizza. ... Well, it's a footlong, guess we'll be here for a while."
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    I don't buy the part about veterans like Troy, A. Smith, Farrior, and the like. That was more like, "we think these guys still have enough in the tank to help us, and we will take the chance on that." And they had to give contracts a year or two longer than they probably should have, due to trying to squeeze everything in under the cap.

    On the other hand, not having a backup plan for once those guys retired was inexcusable. Especially in the case of Ike Taylor.

    We do have a problem with getting hung up on high draft picks and giving certain players like Cough Dupree Cough waaaaaay too many chances to "prove themselves" after it's already painfully clear what they are. Like - you knew what it was when you drafted the guy, it was a big gamble and it didn't pay off. Accept that and move on.

    *takes bite of sandwich*

    "Yuck, that tastes like dogshit!"

    *takes another bite*

    "Yeah, that's dogshit."

    *takes another bite*

    "Yup, definitely dogshit."

    *takes another bite*

    "Still dogshit."

    ...

    "You know, Mr. Rooney, maybe you should consider throwing that out and getting a different sandwich."

    "SHUT UP, I PAID FOR IT! I'M FINISHING THIS!"

    "But Mr. Rooney--" (sigh) "You know what, it's fine. I'll just get a pizza. ... Well, it's a footlong, guess we'll be here for a while."
    Lamarr Woodley's hamstring created this mess. Sometimes, a really bad break comes your way. No one expected Woodley to fall off a cliff after 2011.

    Firing the cut gun on a player who doesn't develop by Year 3 results in reaches like Jarvis Jones and Bud Dupree to begin with. The Steelers panicked on Worilds and Woodley's sudden downturn in 2012-13 and fired a shot on Jones, when Jones didnt get it together, they reached for Dupree instead.

    This is why the Steelers are biting on crappy sandwiches. To stop the bleeding. Now they have a T.J Watt, who finally made Harrison expendable. Now, someone will come along to make Dupree expendable. Ola Adeniyi and Sutton Smith perhaps?

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    It's true that sometimes the steelers keep their old players too long

    I can understand in the case like Hines Ward or James Farrior since the steelers had been in the super bowl the year before, but the season of Polamalu and Ike Taylor in 2014 was painful and sad to watch.

    I hope that will not be the case for Roethlisberger too ... I think he has still at least 2-3 good years ahead of him but I would not want to see Ben being bad as the Manning brothers were at the end of their career (last 2 years for Peyton and since at least 2016 for Eli)

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    im sure there are several instances where they steelers hung on to a player a year or 2 longer than they should have. whether they did so out of desperation, loyalty, cap reasons or just lack of proper player evaluation/management. i guess i would like to see how we compare to other teams to see if this has hurt really hurt us
    the ones that bother me are the mcculler types. this guy sucks. to believe that his production/contribution couldnt be replaced by someone makes me scratch my head

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by munchy View Post
    the ones that bother me are the mcculler types. this guy sucks. to believe that his production/contribution couldnt be replaced by someone makes me scratch my head
    how much production/contribution to you get from the 6th DL on a team that only starts 3 DL?

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    Lamarr Woodley's hamstring created this mess. Sometimes, a really bad break comes your way. No one expected Woodley to fall off a cliff after 2011.

    Firing the cut gun on a player who doesn't develop by Year 3 results in reaches like Jarvis Jones and Bud Dupree to begin with. The Steelers panicked on Worilds and Woodley's sudden downturn in 2012-13 and fired a shot on Jones, when Jones didnt get it together, they reached for Dupree instead.

    This is why the Steelers are biting on crappy sandwiches. To stop the bleeding. Now they have a T.J Watt, who finally made Harrison expendable. Now, someone will come along to make Dupree expendable. Ola Adeniyi and Sutton Smith perhaps?
    Nah, I think Woodley was a case of a guy who did well when he wasn't the center of the defense, but wasn't cut out to be a primary playmaker, so when we tried to use him that way, he fell flat. The hamstring was just a coincidence.

    He was still better than Dupree or Jones or Worilds, who were more like barely passable when other good players were around them, totally worthless when asked to take the leading role.

    I 100% agree all three of those picks were reaches, panic picks, or otherwise forcing it somehow - but I don't think the reason for that was because we cut other guys too early.

    If you have a bad player, you just have a bad player, and there is no scenario in which keeping him helps you. So if you can see that, you are far better off just cutting him on the spot, not wringing your hands over who is going to take his place (he's bad, you won't do any worse), or holding on to some wishful thinking fantasy that he's finally going to live up to his potential. That just costs you money or keeps you from really addressing the problem.

    T.J. Watt is what made Dupree expendable. No one needs to "come along" to do that. Plug in either of the guys you mentioned opposite Watt, and they will almost certainly exceed anything Dupree ever did. Life is a lot easier when the offense is focused on the guy on the opposite side of you. It'd be a shame if that fools us into thinking Dupree is actually improving.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    how much production/contribution to you get from the 6th DL on a team that only starts 3 DL?
    apparently enough production for the steelers to pay him a new 2 year 2.75 million dollar contract

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Nah, I think Woodley was a case of a guy who did well when he wasn't the center of the defense, but wasn't cut out to be a primary playmaker, so when we tried to use him that way, he fell flat. The hamstring was just a coincidence.

    He was still better than Dupree or Jones, who were more like barely passable when other good players were around them, totally worthless when asked to take the leading role.

    I 100% agree all three of those picks were reaches, panic picks, or otherwise forcing it somehow - but I don't think the reason for that was because we cut other guys too early.

    If you have a bad player, you just have a bad player, and there is no scenario in which keeping him helps you. So if you can see that, you are far better off just cutting him on the spot, not wringing your hands over who is going to take his place (he's bad, you won't do any worse), or holding on to some wishful thinking fantasy that he's finally going to live up to his potential. That just costs you money or keeps you from really addressing the problem.

    T.J. Watt is what made Dupree expendable. No one needs to "come along" to do that. Plug in either of the guys you mentioned opposite Watt, and they will almost certainly exceed anything Dupree ever did. Life is a lot easier when the offense is focused on the guy on the opposite side of you. It'd be a shame if that fools us into thinking Dupree is actually improving.

    i think woodley got that fat contract and then mailed it in
    when the coach makes it public that woodley wasnt working hard, kinda tells a lot
    but i do think if he worked to stay in shape he could have went down as one of the greats

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    how much production/contribution to you get from the 6th DL on a team that only starts 3 DL?
    Those are the players you throw out in the hope that whoever you get instead will compete to be the 3rd DL on that line.

    Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but the last guy off the bench is not a place where you look for "stability" and target with a multi-year contract. Those roster spots are for your lottery tickets.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    The thread title made me think immediately of Burns. Have the Steelers ever just cut a 1st round draft pick during his rookie contract? I actually think this may happen. The Steelers brought in FA Nelson and drafted Layne this offseason. I think that makes both of those guys locks to make the 53 barring injury or something strange happening. Also on that list are most likely Haden, Hilton, and Sutton. That would put a 6th CB option of Burns or Allen. I know Burns was selected in the 1st but if I had to make that choice I would keep Allen. How do you guys see this play out?

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Why do we have to keep buy and sale ? What's up with That ?

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    The thread title made me think immediately of Burns. Have the Steelers ever just cut a 1st round draft pick during his rookie contract? I actually think this may happen. The Steelers brought in FA Nelson and drafted Layne this offseason. I think that makes both of those guys locks to make the 53 barring injury or something strange happening. Also on that list are most likely Haden, Hilton, and Sutton. That would put a 6th CB option of Burns or Allen. I know Burns was selected in the 1st but if I had to make that choice I would keep Allen. How do you guys see this play out?
    I think Burns gets the Jarvis Jones treatment, because he is so much better an athlete than Jones ever was and they kept his slow and unproductive butt around. The CB room is deeper than the OLB room was, but I still think Artie makes it to camp and unless he just stinks it up, he make the 53

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I think Burns gets the Jarvis Jones treatment, because he is so much better an athlete than Jones ever was and they kept his slow and unproductive butt around. The CB room is deeper than the OLB room was, but I still think Artie makes it to camp and unless he just stinks it up, he make the 53
    Do you think they keep 5 or 6 CBs and does this mean goodbye to Allen?

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Do you think they keep 5 or 6 CBs and does this mean goodbye to Allen?
    I think those are the types of decisions that will be determined during pre-season games.

    I've never seen Brian Allen do anything that makes me think he's worth keeping...

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    I think those are the types of decisions that will be determined during pre-season games.

    I've never seen Brian Allen do anything that makes me think he's worth keeping...
    Agreed. But if ELGJ thinks Burns makes the 53 then who does he supplant? It makes more sense if the Steelers keep 6CBs than if only 5. I think Haden, Nelson, Layne, Hilton, and Sutton are more locks to make the team than Burns. So if they keep 6 it comes down to Burns or Allen in (my) scenario. I can more easily see Burns over Allen than Burns over any of the other 5. Personally I would cut both Burns and Allen and bring back Sensabaugh for a 6th CB.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Agreed. But if ELGJ thinks Burns makes the 53 then who does he supplant? It makes more sense if the Steelers keep 6CBs than if only 5. I think Haden, Nelson, Layne, Hilton, and Sutton are more locks to make the team than Burns. So if they keep 6 it comes down to Burns or Allen in (my) scenario. I can more easily see Burns over Allen than Burns over any of the other 5. Personally I would cut both Burns and Allen and bring back Sensabaugh for a 6th CB.
    it may very well also depend on whether or not we keep 4 or 5 safeties...

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    it may very well also depend on whether or not we keep 4 or 5 safeties...
    What position group does the Dimebacker fall under?

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    I'm buying. At tiles the Steelers hang on to past their prime players, and over pay them and get stuck on a bad contract, with a costly cut.

    Other times they are too willing to re-sign divas or bad character types.

    I think the Steelers have learned not to gamble on the bad character types.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Buying. This is the same team that recently let Antwon Blake start a full season and let Cam Thomas stay on the roster for 2 seasons despite being utterly useless. The same goes for coaches

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    I think they have made a few mistakes along the way, but some of you guys make it sound like they are clueless.

    I really don't understand how some of you can explain how they win football games with your opinions on the team's decision-making. The way you paint it, this organization should be lucky to win 4-5 games a year.....and clearly that's not the case.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    I really don't understand how some of you can explain how they win football games with your opinions on the team's decision-making.
    Hall of Fame quarterback
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Historically I think the Steelers have done a good job of letting players go and allowing other teams to over pay for our former stars like Fanneca, Wallace, Porter, etc.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Hall of Fame quarterback

    They had a couple years where the roster really was that bad while rebuilding after the 2011 season. Without Ben you would have seen that type of record, but I think overall they have had pretty good talent most years.

    Since Roethlisberger has been with the team, his backup quarterbacks have won about half the games they started.

    This upcoming season is going to tell us a lot about the state of the Steelers roster and coaching staff.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    I like Colbert a lot like as GM, but if he has a weakness it is to know when decided to let a player go.

    Sometimes it's easy to say after like in the case of Bell and Brown but in the case of the old players(Polamalu,Ike Taylor,etc) or the horrible players(Jarvis Jones or other), sometimes Colbert needs to let this player more quickly.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Do you think they keep 5 or 6 CBs and does this mean goodbye to Allen?
    I think the Allen experiment is just about over. He was rather poor in the pre-season games and isn't a rookie anymore.

    Some think Allen might be better off at safety.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Donít Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by Six Rings View Post
    I think the Allen experiment is just about over. He was rather poor in the pre-season games and isn't a rookie anymore.

    Some think Allen might be better off at safety.
    Allen received no reps at safety during OTAs so the door is probably closed on him switching positions.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    They had a couple years where the roster really was that bad while rebuilding after the 2011 season. Without Ben you would have seen that type of record, but I think overall they have had pretty good talent most years.

    Since Roethlisberger has been with the team, his backup quarterbacks have won about half the games they started.

    This upcoming season is going to tell us a lot about the state of the Steelers roster and coaching staff.
    They've done ok, but they get a huge head start by having Ben. What I do not understand is how they consistently have unsolved problems on defense, and they are the same problems. Going on 10 years now.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    They've done ok, but they get a huge head start by having Ben. What I do not understand is how they consistently have unsolved problems on defense, and they are the same problems. Going on 10 years now.
    The question, then, is do other teams have the same problems? Is this a league-wide issue spawned by rule changes and offensive scheming changes? Here's a telling stat. Of the fifteen QBs with the most 4th Quarter comeback in NFL history, almost half of them are active today. Matthew Stafford, Eli Manning, and Matt Ryan all have 26. Drew Brees has 28, Ben R. has 29, Tom Brady has 34, and Peyton Manning leads everyone with 43 (played through 2016). We can break this down another way as well. Matt Ryan led 4th quarter comebacks in almost 1 out of every five games he played, and Romo and Stafford are not that far behind him. The QBs with game winning drives starts with Ryan at almost 28 percent of career games ending with game winning drives. Ben R. is second with 22.1 percent and Stafford is just behind with 22 percent. Manning and Brady are 21.5 and 21.7 percent, respectively. When you look at the career QB passer ratings, the top 10 of 11 QBs on the list are active or retired during our current DB problem streak. And, that list extends to 19 of the top 23 QBs.

    So, I'd argue the league has unsolved problems on the defensive side of the ball right now. Only a few teams have been able to manage it. Seattle could because they were in a very unique situation with a coach that knew college players extremely well. The Pats,* to this day, are most-likely still cheating as is their wont. The Jags were good for one year on defense.

    Now, does that mean the Steelers coaches and players are excused for the defensive performances? No. Not that they were terrible, but they seem to always have breakdowns at the worst time. Interesting, the defense really took a turn for the worst, however, when Timmons was let go (age, contract) and Shazier was injured.
    ďLife is a series of decisions you make that add up to your reputation. Do the right thing.Ē
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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    The question, then, is do other teams have the same problems? Is this a league-wide issue spawned by rule changes and offensive scheming changes? Here's a telling stat. Of the fifteen QBs with the most 4th Quarter comeback in NFL history, almost half of them are active today. Matthew Stafford, Eli Manning, and Matt Ryan all have 26. Drew Brees has 28, Ben R. has 29, Tom Brady has 34, and Peyton Manning leads everyone with 43 (played through 2016). We can break this down another way as well. Matt Ryan led 4th quarter comebacks in almost 1 out of every five games he played, and Romo and Stafford are not that far behind him. The QBs with game winning drives starts with Ryan at almost 28 percent of career games ending with game winning drives. Ben R. is second with 22.1 percent and Stafford is just behind with 22 percent. Manning and Brady are 21.5 and 21.7 percent, respectively. When you look at the career QB passer ratings, the top 10 of 11 QBs on the list are active or retired during our current DB problem streak. And, that list extends to 19 of the top 23 QBs.

    So, I'd argue the league has unsolved problems on the defensive side of the ball right now. Only a few teams have been able to manage it. Seattle could because they were in a very unique situation with a coach that knew college players extremely well. The Pats,* to this day, are most-likely still cheating as is their wont. The Jags were good for one year on defense.

    Now, does that mean the Steelers coaches and players are excused for the defensive performances? No. Not that they were terrible, but they seem to always have breakdowns at the worst time. Interesting, the defense really took a turn for the worst, however, when Timmons was let go (age, contract) and Shazier was injured.
    This is a great post. Thank you.

    Also in this vain is changes in football fundamentals. By the time a player reaches the NFL combine he should have a firm grip on how to tackle, play the man, play the ball, etc. We still see defenders run shoulder first into a ball carrier hoping to knock him down or out of bounds, instead of the fundamental wrap up and tackle they have been taught since day 1 of PeeWee ball. This has become an epidemic league wide. The teams you see at the top of the defensive rankings are usually the ones that still stick to playing great fundamental defense. Splash plays make the highlight reels but fundamental football wins games. Coaches can put players into position to make plays to win, the defense still has to use what they've been taught and make those plays. When fundamental defense breaks down, good QBs become great QBs and defenses look bad.

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    Re: Buy Or Sell: Steelers Don’t Know When To Let Go Of A Player

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    The question, then, is do other teams have the same problems? Is this a league-wide issue spawned by rule changes and offensive scheming changes? Here's a telling stat. Of the fifteen QBs with the most 4th Quarter comeback in NFL history, almost half of them are active today. Matthew Stafford, Eli Manning, and Matt Ryan all have 26. Drew Brees has 28, Ben R. has 29, Tom Brady has 34, and Peyton Manning leads everyone with 43 (played through 2016). We can break this down another way as well. Matt Ryan led 4th quarter comebacks in almost 1 out of every five games he played, and Romo and Stafford are not that far behind him. The QBs with game winning drives starts with Ryan at almost 28 percent of career games ending with game winning drives. Ben R. is second with 22.1 percent and Stafford is just behind with 22 percent. Manning and Brady are 21.5 and 21.7 percent, respectively. When you look at the career QB passer ratings, the top 10 of 11 QBs on the list are active or retired during our current DB problem streak. And, that list extends to 19 of the top 23 QBs.

    So, I'd argue the league has unsolved problems on the defensive side of the ball right now. Only a few teams have been able to manage it. Seattle could because they were in a very unique situation with a coach that knew college players extremely well. The Pats,* to this day, are most-likely still cheating as is their wont. The Jags were good for one year on defense.

    Now, does that mean the Steelers coaches and players are excused for the defensive performances? No. Not that they were terrible, but they seem to always have breakdowns at the worst time. Interesting, the defense really took a turn for the worst, however, when Timmons was let go (age, contract) and Shazier was injured.
    My thoughts on that can be summed up as: You are right inasmuch as the rules of the game and the style of play have been changing to favor the offense. So every defense has been going through tougher times.

    But, the Steelers also seem to have chronic problems with certain stuff for some reason, and we keep "banging our head against the wall" with certain schemes or types of players that do not work out as intended. And we stick with both for YEARS, apparently hoping for things to change on their own, like subpar players suddenly turning into great players, or playing a 3-4 defense with no nose tackle suddenly working as if there was a nose tackle, or having a lack of speed at linebacker and expecting it to work as if there was no lack of speed.

    I can't honestly say whether that's a leaguewide problem or not, but it definitely feels as if there are these specific cases where ... there are aspects of defense that are by no means simple or easy, but we make our problems worse instead of better. And we fail in ways that generally turn it into a fatal flaw, that disqualifies you from championship contention, even though the team overall may be pretty talented.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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