Exactly. That's not very far.Originally Posted by Mojouw
Exactly. That's not very far.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Dupree doesn't get isolated in coverage and taken for a TD Everytime he plays a passing down. Chickfilet does anytime he is asked to be in space. I can think of at least 2 last season and that was in limited snaps.
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I had forgotten this, but Artie Burns was pretty darn good in his rookie year. He fell off a cliff after that.
"You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland
"pretty darn good" is a bit of an overstatement to me as I remember. Burns was still raw and sloppy in his technique and coverage, and I think OC's were just getting used to him and his tendency to jump the first move, so he later became a target.
Look at these INT's, an underthrow by Tyrod and a back throw by TJ Yates. Shows up in the stats as INT, but both are more QB mistakes than great play by the CB. Fan optimism pumped up even the 1st year performance, but that pendulum has swung.
An interesting pattern for our last three R1 CBS.
Deion Figures:
Good rookie season, shot, average afterwards.
Chad Scott:
Good rookie season, knee injury, average afterwards.
Artie Burns:
Good rookie season, lost all confidence, awful afterwards.
agreed.
its worth the 800k to see if he got his head right during the off season
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IDK, maybe our scouting department needs to look closer to their names when considering drafting them
IDK, Chad Scott is a classic case of fans hating on him because he never lived up to the first round billing. The guy played for a decade in the NFL, over 100 games, 21 INT, over 400 tackles. He was a lot more productive than Burns, Figures and a lot of other corners that came thru the Steelers doors.
I bet if you compare the play of Chad Scott to DeShea Townsend over equal timeframes that you find they are very similar in the way of production. The only thing is that Steeler fans will love Townsend because he was a 4th round pick that became a decent #2 CB, while Scott was a 1st rounder that was a good #2CB and draws the hate.
you are correct.
i just looked up his numbers and they are pretty decent
EGJ, I was also looking at his tackles and breakups. 47 solo tackles, 13 breakups, and 3 picks is a pretty good season for any corner. Even 2017 was decent. 44 tackles, 13 breakups, and 1 pick. Also 2 fumble recoveries.
The conventional wisdom (and also my recollection) is as you say; Burns was a raw talent that never showed his ability. But according to the stats, Burns actually *did* show ability for his first 2 seasons and was terrible last year. Perhaps the Steelers noticed that and are looking at 2018 as an anomaly. If so, that would make them more likely to keep him around.
*edit* on the videos, I'd blame the underthrow on the QB, but Burns did well to come up with that second pick one- handed.
Last edited by GoSlash27; 06-08-2019 at 02:17 PM.
"You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland
Thanks, I kind of thought so by the eye test that Scott and Townsend were equally decent corners. Its just that Scott was scrutinized as a #1 pick and expected to pay dividends on the outside right away, while Townsend was a later round pick and given the slot CB to work at and eventually became a #2 CB. Haters gonna hate, but I think both guys had NFL careers longer than a decade and that is a lot more than the average NFL player.
Sure, you can look at Burns stats and say it was a pretty good season. That is the exact reason that he was OVERDRAFTED as well....people were enamored with his stats. I think he had 5 or 6 INT his last year at Miami, but I actually went and looked at them and they were not INT due to quality coverage, good technique or excellent CB play. Burns had a multiple INT game against I think BC and another pick was from him cheating off his coverage and jumping another guys route that the QB telegraphed.
What I am saying is that you can look at the Stats of Burns junior season at Miami and say he is a 1st round pick and you can look at his rookie NFL season stats and say he had an OK season....but if you actually watch him play or watch recordings of his play, you will see why he looked like a 4th round pick or later on film.
EGJ, I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm just saying that statistically he had 2 good years and one horrible year. This contradicts the conventional wisdom that Burns was a raw talent who never showed any competence at the pro level. "Athletic but dumb", "talented but hampered by poor coaching", etc. What the stats say is that he was a good corner for 2 years who cratered in 2018.
"You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland
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Honestly, I think you just described Bud Dupree as well.
Hating?
I was pointing out the pattern of...
1. CB played at level “X” as a rookie
2. Something happened
3. CB played at a level “less than X” afterwards
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Okay... are you messing with me??? Two posts after you call me out for calling a player “average”, you call the same player “decent”.
That is rich.
Artie Sucks and he didn't pass the eyeball test for me years back and how I was able to predict it years back. He has no skills or football instincts and only speed. Why he got exposed in the NFL for what he was. I don't see him improving at all or having any potential regardless with another team and change of scenery.
I think that's just a result of the limits of scouting. Each draft there a dozen guys that are sure things to merge physical and mental. A dozen that have one or the other and teams hope they can develop the missing piece. And a dozen who scouting just missed identifying as having the needed set of skills.
I agree and also forced draft pick to feel a need.
That's where I part ways. I don't really buy the forced draft pick narrative. I buy that it's more that teams roll the dice that they can develop the missing elements in a player. They all regularly make bets on guys that either have physical or mental upside with the belief they can build the missing elements up.
I disagree, the Steelers wanted to select William Jackson III and when the Bengals picked him right in front of us we we reached by taking the next CB on our board which was Artie Burns.
Yep this is where we have to part ways. Steelers was taking a cb in the 1st no matter what because of huge need! If Burns would have been gone the pick still would have been cb in the first.
Teeg, I wasn't directing any Chad Scott hate at your comments. Sorry if it came across that way. I just know there are some fans that really hack on Scott with the same or more vitriol that some do with Jarvis Jones, or Senquez Golson, despite Scott having a long career in the NFL. I thought Chad Scott was a better NFL pro than Bryant McFadden...yet a lot of fans don't hate McFadden the way they mention Chad Scott.Hating?
I was pointing out the pattern of...
1. CB played at level “X” as a rookie
2. Something happened
3. CB played at a level “less than X” afterwards
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That is rich.
The way I saw it was : year 1 -athletic and fortunate to pad his stats with some opportunistic INT's, but still lousy CB play. Year 2- couldn't break the tendency to jump the first look and wasn't disciplined in technique to avoid the big play, which got him benched. Year 3- still not embracing learning technique and now sees himself as a failure who often screws up, which has become reality.
I don't hear much about Burns being a guy that put in extra time, or listens intently to improve and works on his craft. Maybe I missed those things in the media, but he was athletic with bad technique IMO and just read his press clippings of how he could cover AB in practice, where I hope Justin Layne is a guy that intends to learn from vets like Joe Haden and be a developing pro.
Yep and this can't be disputed now that the truth leak a few years back. Like I said they was taking a cb in the first even if he was 4th on their list!
too bad the Steelers didn't have Xavien Howard as their next highest ranked CB after William Jackson III.
So true!
I cant complain, as I didn't think Howard was 1st round grade. He was big and physical, but from what I recall he was somewhat raw at the position and tended to get grabby in coverage. I was more in favor of waiting later to get Mackenzie Alexander or Fuller in 2nd or 3rd rounds. I thought Howard was a 2nd or 3rd round prospect.
While I do think Burns was a reach, there were many pundits and reportedly teams such as KC that thought highly of Burns that he was a 1st round prospect. I see parallels with Mack Wilson at ILB this year and Artie Burns. Athletes with some good numbers in college, but when you watch their games they really aren't that impressive.
The Steelers seem snakebitten when it comes to CBs. Even when they draft a good one, something will happen to derail his career. I’ve stated several times over the years that they should simply sign free agent CBs.
100% If the Steelers had drafted Xavien Howard, heads would have exploded... because, everyone (experts, people here) said he was raw/a project.
Also, KC was absolutely going to draft Artie Burns. They traded down immediately afterwards, because Burns was gone.
Additionally, several on here (Dwins, steelreserve) preferred Mackensie Alexander... but, not in R1.
Lastly, Sterling Shepard was the only WR that the Steelers met with during the draft process. R1 was too early for him, and if they had traded back (there were offers) the thinking was that they’d get him in early R2. If they had taken Shepard in R1...talk about heads exploding!!! In hindsight, it would have been a good pick (or, at worst, a better pick).
SUMMATION:
They wanted WJIII. Howard was seen as too raw. And, Alexander was/is a slot CB. IMO, when WJIII got drafted, they went for NEED (over the BPA).
I’ve always liked the pick, because I did not separate my heart from the pick (Burns’s story is a heartbreaker)... when I should have listened to my brain.
Noway man, I wanted Alexander straight-up in R1 if there was nothing clearly better available, as he was the most "game-ready" CB at that point. I had also suggested Howard with that pick, although a trade down would've been better (and apparently we were actually offered more than one that would've worked in real life). You can find posts to that effect in the pre- and post-draft threads.
Of course, many including myself were also pushing other ideas that turned out to be stupid (Andrew Billings, for example). But the main thing that really pissed me off was, if you're going to make a bold move or reach for a player, at least don't take someone where there are clearly multiple better options AT THE SAME POSITION.
We really let round-grades get in our head on the Howard/Alexander idea, but I also can't recall any world in which Burns was considered anything other than a HUGE reach/gamble as a R1 pick. Who was saying before the draft, "this guy is a solid R1-worthy corner?" No one, that's who.
And at the same time, there was seemingly no reason at all why Howard was drawing R3 grades ... like some vague concern over whether his skills would translate. Meanwhile a guy like Eli Apple has very tangible and concerning red flags about whether his skills will translate, but then he still gets pumped as the most sought-after CB in the draft behind Ramsey.
It's like ... there are 1, maybe 2 guys per position per year that everyone agrees are going to be superstars, and then half a dozen other top prospects who are segregated into R1-R3 "grades" entirely on hipshooting and hype. You could argue Mason Rudolph's QB class was the same way but it worked in our favor (maybe) that time.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Artie Burns Ran 1st-Team Through Most Of OTAs With Joe Haden Not Practicing
By Matthew Marczi
Posted on June 11, 2019
https://steelersdepot.com/2019/06/ar...ot-practicing/
If Artie gets released this summer, he would become the first 1st round draft pick to not make it to the 4th year with the team since Troy Edwards, drafted in 1999 and made 3 years with the team. Most of those players drafted after Edwards were worth keeping around, but even Jarvis Jones made 4 years with the team
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