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Thread: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    Jerry Rice ran a 4.71 forty...
    That is internet fake news

    https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/c...71_40_in_1985/

    4.55-4.63 Walsh says 4.59. Rice was tall, an expert route runner, very quick and carried his pads well. He had " football speed " and a special ability to know where he had to be and when.

    If the 40 yard dash was timed with a helmet and pads, which is what matteres most and Rice would beat some 4.45 to 4.5 guys. At least I think so.

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Between “complete dogshit” and “Hall of Famer” there is a spectrum...
    Well, going back to the point of this whole thing ... if Washington turned out the same as Wheaton, would you be happy about that?

    Does that mean we would call it a win and keep him as the long-term answer, or in a couple years would we need to go looking for someone else?

    I still think that if you can't get open on your own, that makes you a pretty dogshit receiver.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Between “complete dogshit” and “Hall of Famer” there is a spectrum...
    Teams don't need #2, 3 or 4 WR's. They only need pro bowlers and HOF candidates. The rest are all just dogshit.

    So if Washington ends up being just like former Dolphin and Wisconsin Badger, Chris Chambers. A guy with similar build and skillset, a 5'11 long strider with long arms that was more fast than quick, but never a #1 WR or pro bowl type guy, then he will be deemed as dogshit. The hilarious part I find is that some fans have already judged him a bust and he hasn't even been to his 2nd NFL training camp. SMH.

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Six Rings View Post
    That is internet fake news

    https://www.reddit.com/r/NFL_Draft/c...71_40_in_1985/

    4.55-4.63 Walsh says 4.59. Rice was tall, an expert route runner, very quick and carried his pads well. He had " football speed " and a special ability to know where he had to be and when.

    If the 40 yard dash was timed with a helmet and pads, which is what matteres most and Rice would beat some 4.45 to 4.5 guys. At least I think so.
    Even if he did run a 4.7, why would it matter? Everyone knows straight-ahead speed doesn't mean shit unless you already did something else to get an advantage first (faked someone out, got a good block, found a hole in the defense, etc.)

    Like, on any passing play there are defenders lined up 10, 20 yards downfield. On a running play, there are guys lined up 5 or 10 yards to the outside. You are not just going to run right past people. I mean, we had Willie Parker for 5 or 6 years, how could people not know this unless they have shit for brains?

    Even a guy like Mike Wallace with "breakaway speed" ... Well yeah, he was fast, but more than anything, he was great at taking the right angle so that it mattered he was fast. Plenty of guys with similar speed to him on both sides of the ball, but it ain't shit unless you have something to go with it.

    And what Wallace was doing was amateur-level shit compared to Rice, really just instinct. Rice had that down on a whole different level, not to mention an incredible anticipation for what the opponent was going to do, while being a master of every possible way to take advantage of it.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Even if he did run a 4.7, why would it matter? Everyone knows straight-ahead speed doesn't mean shit unless you already did something else to get an advantage first (faked someone out, got a good block, found a hole in the defense, etc.)

    Like, on any passing play there are defenders lined up 10, 20 yards downfield. On a running play, there are guys lined up 5 or 10 yards to the outside. You are not just going to run right past people. I mean, we had Willie Parker for 5 or 6 years, how could people not know this unless they have shit for brains?

    Even a guy like Mike Wallace with "breakaway speed" ... Well yeah, he was fast, but more than anything, he was great at taking the right angle so that it mattered he was fast. Plenty of guys with similar speed to him on both sides of the ball, but it ain't shit unless you have something to go with it.

    And what Wallace was doing was amateur-level shit compared to Rice, really just instinct. Rice had that down on a whole different level, not to mention an incredible anticipation for what the opponent was going to do, while being a master of every possible way to take advantage of it.
    Speed helps but knowing how to play football and do it in pads on Sundays is different.

    Think about the following names:

    Dri Archer.

    Hines Ward.

    One of the fastest NFL players versus one of the slowest NFL WRs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Teams don't need #2, 3 or 4 WR's. They only need pro bowlers and HOF candidates. The rest are all just dogshit.

    So if Washington ends up being just like former Dolphin and Wisconsin Badger, Chris Chambers. A guy with similar build and skillset, a 5'11 long strider with long arms that was more fast than quick, but never a #1 WR or pro bowl type guy, then he will be deemed as dogshit. The hilarious part I find is that some fans have already judged him a bust and he hasn't even been to his 2nd NFL training camp. SMH.
    Yes, that's what I said. That's exactly what I said. I said anyone who isn't a Hall of Fame player is dogshit. Not "Wheaton, specifically, was not a very good receiver, and here are several reasons why, and I hope Washington turns out better than that." No, I certainly didn't say that at all.

    Nope, Hall of Famer or dogshit. Us fans are just out of our minds and totally clueless, unlike you fans.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Teams don't need #2, 3 or 4 WR's. They only need pro bowlers and HOF candidates. The rest are all just dogshit.

    So if Washington ends up being just like former Dolphin and Wisconsin Badger, Chris Chambers. A guy with similar build and skillset, a 5'11 long strider with long arms that was more fast than quick, but never a #1 WR or pro bowl type guy, then he will be deemed as dogshit. The hilarious part I find is that some fans have already judged him a bust and he hasn't even been to his 2nd NFL training camp. SMH.


    It's just hard for me to wrap my head around people that don't give players a chance to develop before deciding that they can't play, or crushing and insulting players that weren't stars as if they had pissed on their heads or called their mothers names.

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Well, going back to the point of this whole thing ... if Washington turned out the same as Wheaton, would you be happy about that?

    Does that mean we would call it a win and keep him as the long-term answer, or in a couple years would we need to go looking for someone else?

    I still think that if you can't get open on your own, that makes you a pretty dogshit receiver.
    So...

    The floor is 700 yards and 5 TDs.
    The ceiling is 1400 yards and 7 TDs.

    Hines Ward fluctuated (up & down) between those two parameters for most of his career. Yea, I’d take that.

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    If Washington puts up Wheaton numbers, Johnson puts up Wheaton numbers, Moncrief puts up Wheaton numbers, JuJu puts up Wheaton numbers, Eli puts up Wheaton numbers, Switzer puts up Wheaton numbers, McDonald puts up Wheaton numbers, NOBODY puts up AB numbers, how does this offense fare over the course of a season? Instead of WR vs WR comparisons I'm more interested in the production of the offense as a whole unit. That is what moves the needle for me. As has been pointed out consistently on here, AB putting up HoF numbers got us nowhere fast. Maybe it's not the receiving stats of individuals we need to make the top priority this season?

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    If Washington puts up Wheaton numbers, Johnson puts up Wheaton numbers, Moncrief puts up Wheaton numbers, JuJu puts up Wheaton numbers, Eli puts up Wheaton numbers, Switzer puts up Wheaton numbers, McDonald puts up Wheaton numbers, NOBODY puts up AB numbers, how does this offense fare over the course of a season? Instead of WR vs WR comparisons I'm more interested in the production of the offense as a whole unit. That is what moves the needle for me. As has been pointed out consistently on here, AB putting up HoF numbers got us nowhere fast. Maybe it's not the receiving stats of individuals we need to make the top priority this season?
    JuJu should have at least 1000 yards (he had at least 1400 yards last year), but for the rest if 2 other WR's and Mcdonald are capable of having 700 yards, I'll be happy.

    But as you say, we do not need to focus on the individual stats .... I'd rather see Ben getting 4200-4500 yards with a better YPA and less interception than having 5000 yards with a lot of interception and missing the playoffs because we did not use the running game enough or that our defense was bad.

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    So...

    The floor is 700 yards and 5 TDs.
    The ceiling is 1400 yards and 7 TDs.

    Hines Ward fluctuated (up & down) between those two parameters for most of his career. Yea, I’d take that.
    Man, you just proved my point without even knowing it. Clearly, there is a HUGE difference between an impact player that makes a contribution to winning football, and a player who collects stats by showing up and doing the minimum to not get benched. Unless you have been snorting so much cocaine that you are actually arguing Markus Wheaton belongs in the same company as Hines Ward. We all know Wheaton isn't even worthy of carrying a bucket of Hines Ward's shit. Cocaine's a hell of a drug.

    What Wheaton got are the slot receiver stats for showing up. 400-500 yards. A couple hundred more if you have help (good receivers in front of you, good QB, a lucky game or two). Same as OLB being 4-5 sacks if you just show up and don't get benched, a couple more with some luck. Wheaton didn't "get" 700 yards that anyone else wouldn't have. And for his career, that was an extreme outlier. You'd be happy if our second-round draft pick topped out at a single 700-yard season and his next-best in his career was 400-500? Really?

    Where did you get 1400 yards as a ceiling. I was talking about Wheaton. I don't see how that even makes sense.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Cocaine's a hell of a drug.

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Man, you just proved my point without even knowing it. Clearly, there is a HUGE difference between an impact player that makes a contribution to winning football, and a player who collects stats by showing up and doing the minimum to not get benched. Unless you have been snorting so much cocaine that you are actually arguing Markus Wheaton belongs in the same company as Hines Ward. We all know Wheaton isn't even worthy of carrying a bucket of Hines Ward's shit. Cocaine's a hell of a drug.

    What Wheaton got are the slot receiver stats for showing up. 400-500 yards. A couple hundred more if you have help (good receivers in front of you, good QB, a lucky game or two). Same as OLB being 4-5 sacks if you just show up and don't get benched, a couple more with some luck. Wheaton didn't "get" 700 yards that anyone else wouldn't have. And for his career, that was an extreme outlier. You'd be happy if our second-round draft pick topped out at a single 700-yard season and his next-best in his career was 400-500? Really?

    Where did you get 1400 yards as a ceiling. I was talking about Wheaton. I don't see how that even makes sense.
    Okay then.

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Okay then.

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Is there any evidence for these blanket statements?

    Slot WRs get X yards by showing up.
    OLBs get Y sacks by having a pulse.

    Using hyperbolic statements backed by nothing other than a strong gut feeling severely undercuts what is otherwise an argument that many would be prone to agree with.

    This kinda says that 500 yards puts you around the top 10 in slot WRs league wide. Didn't totally do the prorated math. https://www.profootballfocus.com/new...ugh-13-weeks-2

    It isn't really that anyone thinks Wheaton is all that great shakes. It is more that the justifications used to downgrad him are seemingly made up out of whole cloth and based on little empirical evidence. I mean that is the cool thing about the NFL, we have how many years and decades of statistics to develop reasonable baselines for performance off of. No need to just pull #'s out of the ether. Taking a 2 minute tour through some recent yearly stat compilations and it seems that Markus Wheaton was a high side of average WR out of the slot and a mediocre WR when asked to be the explosive vertical element in an offense. Then injuries and cost bounced him right out the of the league.

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    BUT.....best/worst slot WR based off what exactly? Total yards? YPG? Target/Drop ratio? Too many variables to pick just any one stat and start making a list of best to worst. For instance, take JuJu's stats from the link MojoUW supplied in the post above. What does that same stat line look like without AB and/or Ben on the field? OR with the AZ OL trying to pass block? This really gets silly when trying to justify based purely off of numbers. I'm sure Steelreserve watched Wheaton play a few times and determined he was not one of his all time favorite Steelers based on how he saw Wheaton perform. Stats are not going to change that opinion. IMO, Wheaton's issue was not ability it was he got hurt. 644 yards in 2014 with a catch percentage of 61.6%(pretty good stats), 749 yards in 2015 with a catch percentage of 55.7%(pretty good stats). That is mostly his career as a Steeler, playing in only 3 games after that.

    All this to say if the 5-6 WRs that make this team's 53 end up with approx 700 yards each(3500 to 4200 receiving yards) and a catch percentage around 60%, I think we will all be fairly happy as Steelers fans.

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post

    All this to say if the 5-6 WRs that make this team's 53 end up with approx 700 yards each(3500 to 4200 receiving yards) and a catch percentage around 60%, I think we will all be fairly happy as Steelers fans.
    Yeah, but really we aren't including what RB's and TE's are catching in terms of yardage as well. Many forget that at one point, Bell was the 2nd leading receiver on the Steelers. If we say between 5WR, 3 TE, 2RB that a 4500 yard passing year is pretty good. You can say that the top 2 receivers may account for 2000 yards and the other 2500 gets mixed between the other 8 catching the football.

    I'd be curious to know the last 5 seasons that while AB was mostly the top receiver, then how much did the #2, 3, 4, 5 options achieve? Something tells me the #3 and 4 guys only caught around 500-600 yards worth of passing. Maybe less.

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    an aberration, the NFL had no decent defenders those two years.
    those were all dong receptions since they weren't against the #1 cb or against double coverage

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Yeah, but really we aren't including what RB's and TE's are catching in terms of yardage as well. Many forget that at one point, Bell was the 2nd leading receiver on the Steelers. If we say between 5WR, 3 TE, 2RB that a 4500 yard passing year is pretty good. You can say that the top 2 receivers may account for 2000 yards and the other 2500 gets mixed between the other 8 catching the football.

    I'd be curious to know the last 5 seasons that while AB was mostly the top receiver, then how much did the #2, 3, 4, 5 options achieve? Something tells me the #3 and 4 guys only caught around 500-600 yards worth of passing. Maybe less.
    JuJu was second in 2017 at 917 yards....Bell was second in target with 106 for 655 yards,3rd on this team.
    2016,Bell was second in yards with 616 yards in 12 games...He had 94 targets
    Martavis was second in 2015 with 765 yards in 11 games..Wheaton was not far behind at 749 yards in 16 games...Deangelo Williams had 367 yards on 47 targets
    2014,Bell was again second in yards with 854 yards on 105 targets

    For 2018,Conner had 497 yards in 13 games(71 targets)..Samuels had 199 yards on 29 targets

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Since 749 yards is “dogshit”, I started looking at other Steelers’ first three seasons.

    (Only three, because Wheaton was injured in season 4, and gone by Season 5).

    AB:
    dogshit, good, dogshit

    Hines Ward:
    dogshit, dogshit, dogshit

    Martavis Bryant:
    dogshit, dogshit, dogshit

    Manny Sanders:
    dogshit, dogshit, dogshit

    James Washington:
    dogshit, he’s doomed, cut him now!!!

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Some have standard way too high ... It's like when some in the past were not satisfied with T.J Watt or Lamarr Woodley in his peak because he was not as good as James Harrison!

    In the case of Wheaton, he was not a star player but it's impossible to have star players in each starter!

    If Washington has a season like Wheaton in 2015 (749 yards in 79 targets only) I'll be happy .... Let's not forget that Wheaton stats would have been even better if Ben would not miss 4 games!

    - - - Updated - - -

    In his first 2 games in 2015 with Ben but without Bell and Bryant,Wheaton had 55 yards vs Pats and 67 yards vs 49ers as second option!...Not bad!

    After,Ben was hurt against the rams and Wheaton had a slump, but he was not alone .... It was the same for Antonio Brown since our passing game was brutal with Vick!

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    If Washington has a season like Wheaton in 2015 (749 yards in 79 targets only) I'll be happy
    Exactly!!! For a second-year WR to have 750 yards would be very good.

    (We were spoiled by JuJu’s early success.)

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Goodell View Post
    those were all dong receptions since they weren't against the #1 cb or against double coverage
    Jamarcus Wheatondong receptions !!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    JuJu was second in 2017 at 917 yards....Bell was second in target with 106 for 655 yards,3rd on this team.
    2016,Bell was second in yards with 616 yards in 12 games...He had 94 targets
    Martavis was second in 2015 with 765 yards in 11 games..Wheaton was not far behind at 749 yards in 16 games...Deangelo Williams had 367 yards on 47 targets
    2014,Bell was again second in yards with 854 yards on 105 targets

    For 2018,Conner had 497 yards in 13 games(71 targets)..Samuels had 199 yards on 29 targets
    Thanks for this. Those years that Bell and Bryant were in the 600-765 yards as the #2 receivers are kind of low. I wonder if the #3 receiver is somehow sub-dogshit level on that HOF-dogshit scale Teegre is working on?

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post



    Thanks for this. Those years that Bell and Bryant were in the 600-765 yards as the #2 receivers are kind of low. I wonder if the #3 receiver is somehow sub-dogshit level on that HOF-dogshit scale Teegre is working on?

    Just to read this article..very interesting

    https://www.steelcityunderground.com...fense-perform/


    Last year, our 3rd WR with the most yards and target was Ryan Switzer ... The production of our 3rd WR for the next season should be much better.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Not true that Wheaton had no impact play with us



    And 201 yards against the best pass defense in this decade!!!


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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    He's hungry!!!
    Hopefully for more than Taco Bell.
    "With love, with patience, and with Faith
    ....She'll make her way" ~ Natalie Merchant

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by GBMelBlount View Post
    Hopefully for more than Taco Bell.
    Great! Now I'm hungry for Taco Bell. What time does 4th meal start again?

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post

    It isn't really that anyone thinks Wheaton is all that great shakes. It is more that the justifications used to downgrad him are seemingly made up out of whole cloth and based on little empirical evidence. I mean that is the cool thing about the NFL, we have how many years and decades of statistics to develop reasonable baselines for performance off of. No need to just pull #'s out of the ether. Taking a 2 minute tour through some recent yearly stat compilations and it seems that Markus Wheaton was a high side of average WR out of the slot and a mediocre WR when asked to be the explosive vertical element in an offense. Then injuries and cost bounced him right out the of the league.
    Well summed up. As a slot receiver Wheaton did a pretty good job until injured. Did he cut it as a big vertical threat outside receiver? no. As a whole, he did a decent job for us while he was here. If you figure there are 64 starting wide receivers in the league, his output as a #3 the last 2 full seasons he played was better than a large chunk of the number 2 receivers in the league. No need to rip him.

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Since 749 yards is “dogshit”, I started looking at other Steelers’ first three seasons.

    (Only three, because Wheaton was injured in season 4, and gone by Season 5).

    AB:
    dogshit, good, dogshit

    Hines Ward:
    dogshit, dogshit, dogshit

    Martavis Bryant:
    dogshit, dogshit, dogshit

    Manny Sanders:
    dogshit, dogshit, dogshit

    James Washington:
    dogshit, he’s doomed, cut him now!!!
    Wheaton's stats weren't dogshit, HE was dogshit. He made very little impact and probably had more yards than he should have for a player of that caliber.

    Keep in mind, 700 yards was not standard production for him. That was a career year. The other 5 seasons of his career, he averaged like 150 yards, and exceeded 100 yards in a season exactly ONCE.

    If 700 yards is your career high, and a third of it was from one crazy game (which we lost), and the rest is like that, then guess what, you are dogshit. People act like 700 yards was business as usual for him. No, it was the high-water mark for a shitty player, and realistically, he was very lucky it wasn't 500 or 550.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    He made very little impact

    .


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    Re: James Washington sheds weight, puts rookie season behind him in Year 2 with Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Wheaton's stats weren't dogshit, HE was dogshit. He made very little impact and probably had more yards than he should have for a player of that caliber.

    Keep in mind, 700 yards was not standard production for him. That was a career year. The other 5 seasons of his career, he averaged like 150 yards, and exceeded 100 yards in a season exactly ONCE.

    If 700 yards is your career high, and a third of it was from one crazy game (which we lost), and the rest is like that, then guess what, you are dogshit. People act like 700 yards was business as usual for him. No, it was the high-water mark for a shitty player, and realistically, he was very lucky it wasn't 500 or 550.
    You are missing the point that Wheaton only played for 2 seasons and had approx 1400 yards in those 2 seasons. He only played for the Steelers 4 years. His rookie year(12 games 6 recs for 64 yards), 2 productive years(16 games each with53 and 44 recs for 644 and 749 yards), and 3 games in year 4 due to injury(51 yards on 4 recs). After that he went to the Bears and then to the Eagles.

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