The ship of state started listing long before Clinton and Carville came on the scene. They didn't help but it would have begun taking on water anyway. Now it's just pouring in and if we don't stop it you'll be looking at The Peoples Republic of America and it won't be due to pressure from the left.Originally Posted by Craic
Last edited by tom444; 06-24-2020 at 02:59 AM.
Array title="cold-hard-steel has a brilliant future">
Why can't i act like one side is fucked up and one is not? I see what is real.I am not blind.One side wants to burn and destroy America with out any regard for those that just want to live and be and generally are peaceful, hard working citizens. And only one party i see standing by,and allowing,and even encouraging that destruction in the cities under control of that same party.What i see as even more disastrous is that the media is allowed to show 24 hours a day unfounded lies and cut real clips to show something that simply is not true,if you get to see the whole clip.I kind of like to deal in truth.Truth.....Trump does not speak or act like any other Politician to ever sit in their chair. REP. or DEM. TRUTH!!! That isn't my version of the truth because i know there is only one truth.
What ever Trump does no matter how good or bad he is highly scrutinized especially by one party who prods a candidate that you can not question,because he is obviously avoiding public appearances and 10 minute speeches in every way. Doesn't matter,i will not buy something if i do not know what i'm getting.If i'm left to decide based on past performances of Joe Biden,then i pass thanks but no thanks.Not even a running mate thus far.How do i know who will take over if he were to die in office? Which frankly is quite possible.That is very important if you ask me.I think Trump is dead on that he would be but a puppet for the democratic party who failed to get Hillary to the white house.Which by the way is now a racist issue because it
happens to be White.I also agree there should be no way the election be determined by mail in voting.I have had numerous issues with the U.S. postal service myself(TRUTH).
I wouldn't put it past the Dems to push OBama to be Joes running mate.They could keep Joe on life support so technically he'd still be alive,then have ole- Bama run the show.Nothing would be surprising if you ask me.It's never been attempted before but no more surprising than anything else that i've seen happening.I did some research on it and in theory it could be attempted. I should call cnn and tell them Obama has been chosen to be the running mate of Joe Biden. Bet you would see "BREAKING NEWS" about it before you could blink an eye.
Two bags are guarenteed to fit all sizes ,or your money back. If you are not completely satisfied call 1-800-GOO-DHELL We show 5 bags to choose from,most problems only need 2 bags
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Just found this out. Google any 3 digits you wish . Any , i tried several different digits. 3 000's was my favorite . Then just scroll down. Try it more than once. what a joke.Corporate america at its finest.
I pretty much agree with you that this started in the Clinton era, although, nothing like what we have now. Interesting that you cite Carville for driving this... I never really thought about it, but that does have some merit.
^^^ That's some funny stuff. I enjoyed reading that. Like listening to a cabbie.
Because the left doesn't want you to say that only they are fucked up, so they will attack you for doing it. That's the only reason. Gaslighting in the extreme.
See you Space Cowboy ...
So not because the right just might be fucked up to?
The extreme right is fucked up and always has been. But what is ordinarily the moderate center is now labeled "the right" because leftists have declared it so, even though nothing else has changed.
So no, "the right" as currently defined is not fucked up. All that "right-wing" means today is "anyone who disagrees with the hard left." That label has lost all value.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Both parties have been making up myths and lies to feed the voters for a long long (long) time. It goes well beyond Clinton/Carville. We just noticed that because it was about the time that the 24/7 cable news cycle came online.
Prior to that it was Friday "trash day" where administrations would dump whatever they didn't want people to notice into the press going into the weekend when no one really read the papers.
Then there was all the "code" words that Atwater et al used to talk about race - much of it (like "wellfare queens") was totally invented but sounded good.
Read about the 1828 election between Adams and Jackson. Absolutely filthy tactics all the way around. Manipulation of facts/events by both candidates and the press.
Read about how the press drove the train for the Spanish American war -- "You furnish the pictures and I will furnish the war." - William Randolph Hearst
None of this is new. It just happens faster and louder than ever before. But we all (politicians/citizens/pundits/etc) need to stop acting like we are in some uncharted world where there are no guideposts. Same shit, just a faster method of communication.
We can even find numerous US historical precedents for the violence and protests that are taking place now. Late 1960's. Early 1900's. During the Civil War. Etc. Etc. Honestly, read more books about history. The world is far less confusing and surprising.
It can be reasonably argued by reasonable people that much of the self-identified "moderate center" is actually somewhat right of center because large swaths of the American electorate is further left than many people believe.
Not the clearest sentence I ever typed out, but...for instance...some data (and I am too lazy to find it today) shows that folks who identify as "right/right-center/moderate/whatever" are actually really socially and culturally "left/liberal/whatever". This kinda skews and screws up how we all define these terms and then we split "hard" and "soft" and whatever else.
Plus, how one defines "fucked up" is not consistent either. By my own definition of the term, I would reverse almost everything in your statement.
All I am trying to say is that the total failure by all participants to define and consistently use the same terms and labels means that the whole discussion is usually happening on separate track.
I think we're talking about the same phenomenon, with perhaps a different reason. I would agree with the part in bold - if you look at what constituted a "moderate" opinion 10 or 20 years ago, on anything from immigration to gun control to economics, it would almost universally be considered a conservative opinion today. (All those old Clinton or Obama quotes about border control, for example, show the stark contrast.)
But I would say the reason for that is that the activist left has shifted the frame of reference to the left - and successfully dragged some percentage of the electorate left with them. If you repeat your message loudly enough and often enough, many people will believe it, and that is what has happened over the past couple of decades as media and education, people's two major sources of information, have become increasingly more left-leaning. People don't like to stick out, and so if the crowd around you is moving in a certain direction, there's a good chance you will too.
Overall, though, the result is a little bit different: It is not that the "self-identified" moderates are right of center - they actually are moderates like always, but there has been a slow general mentality shift to the left. A dangerous shift, if you ask me.
The only consistent way of labeling is "anyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi" (or the reverse, "anyone who disagrees with me is a communist traitor"). Not productive or helpful. What has gotten out of hand is that it used to be everyone would just brush off those kinds of comments as exaggerations, and now they are enough to get someone fired from their job and "unpersoned." Guess which side is almost exclusively responsible for that one.
See you Space Cowboy ...
This is true. I am somewhat socially liberal. I do consider myself to be center right... in the traditional sense. I think most of us... at least on here and other forums discussing these things, are either c enter right or left. I think most of us agree that the extremes of both parties are doing no good for the country and the citizens. I will say that the left has lost it's way in a bigger way than the right... IMO.folks who identify as "right/right-center/moderate/whatever" are actually really socially and culturally "left/liberal/whatever". This kinda skews and screws up how we all define these terms and then we split "hard" and "soft" and whatever else.
Bernie is not a Democrat. AOC is not a democrat. Omar is not a Democrat. They have admitted to wanting their own party and shedding the Democrat label. I hope this never happens because the party they want is NOT America. Until we start to hear from the more "normal" right and left leaning people, we will continue to just get the bull shit we are getting right now.... and the media is just loving it.
It is all a matter of perspective as well. Each of us tends to forget that we are getting older and the world around is changing rapidly. We see a position right now that seems similar to X # of years ago and we think that is is now right/left/center etc. and used to be something different. So therefore the lines have changed and the terms are meaning different things. Yes and no. We need to remember, we are just getting older. Things change.
Younger people no longer think LGBTQ+ stuff is a right or left issue. They are just like "give all people the same rights and legal protections and be done with it." Similar phenomena can be noted on other "wedge" issues that used to help define and outline right-center-left on the American political spectrum. And I, based on my direct experiences, do not believe this is media/education drive. It is the same large-order generational change that has always and will always happen.
Moving back to the larger issues, I think the biggest "mistake" both parties made was no longer defining themselves and fighting elections over substantive policy. It is in my lifetime that "right" used to mean fiscally conservative, hawkish on defense/national security, and laisse faire on domestic policy outside of "deregulation" and crime. The "left" meant fiscally more liberal with the associated higher taxes, less interventionist/dovish on national defense, and more aggressive on domestic policies beyond deregulation and law enforcement. Then in the 2000's - everything got muddled and both parties just labelled whatever they didn't support at the moment as some slur for the other party (fascist/socialist/whatever). If you actually look at much of the proposed policy and laws at the federal level in the last 2 decades, it is often not clear what party would have proposed them. Many are just written by lobbyists and many are "rebranded" ideas stolen from the other party. "Obamacare" for all its divisive hullabaloo is loaded with originally Republican ideas from the state level.
Long story short, "Citizens United" and the general inability of the average person to wade through information are likely going to be viewed as the final coffin nails. The rest of this crap is just window dressing for the real rot of influence, corporate cash, and stupidity.
Personally, I believe those three represent far more important aspects of the fundamentals of America than McConnell, Graham, Cruz, or Nunes. Even if we disagree with their policies and proposals, those 3 are actually attempting to govern and ensure that government functions on a daily basis and performs its Constitutionally assigned tasks. The GOP figures I mentioned continually shutdown the government, refuse to perform basic and essential functions that everyday folks need to get by, and blatantly disregard checks and balances because they just want to.
I think the idea that Bernie, AOC and Omar don't represent America or whatever is kinda laughable. They keep getting elected. So they certainly represent some part of America. And if they want to run under the banner of "Progressive Socialist Commie Wingnut Democrats" - good for them. That is the entire point of this system. Run on whatever the hell you want and the voters will decide if that message works or not.
I think the "Tea Party" was a horrible political movement and a repugnant approach to governing. But they are still Republicans and they still represent America. They don't represent my vision and hope for the country, but it is still all part of it.
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Oh yes,the "circular maize of logic".
Hilarious.
this whole conversation might be moot. Right now, Biden leads in a laugher.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/24/u...a-college.html
I'm no big Biden fan nor am I really interested in debating his candidacy. I did merely want to point out that a 14 point lead among registered voters is big.
Lot of time before November. Got to get voters to the polls in big #s and ensure that the 14 point lead runs into actual electoral votes. But at least this one pill says not good for the incumbent.
So.... you support socialism for this country?
Well since no one is proposing socialism, it isn't even a concern. Wake me when someone really moves off of capitalism and I might care.
There have been calls to raise taxes and reprioritize spending but not eliminating private property, dissolve the stock market, and/or nationalizing industry.
You aren't listening to the left??? ..... seriously???
I'm not sure you fully understand what actual full blown socialism really is.
In Bahston we love AOC.
Just like the 2016 election, the Democrat candidate's lead in the polls gets wider the more the cancel culture frenzy ramps up, and we are right at the height of it.
The difference you are seeing from the poll numbers a month ago is most likely just the number of voters who are now afraid to go on record about what they are thinking. But believe me, that is not a group that is wavering.
I have not met a single person who has said, "I used to be for Trump, but you know what, he really let me down, so let's give the Democrats a shot."
But I have met many people who have said, "I'm a lifelong Democrat, but I don't even recognize this party anymore - what the fuck are these people thinking? I'm done." And it isn't as if Biden as a candidate is going to inspire anyone to change their minds - their only selling point is straight party dogma.
See you Space Cowboy ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/12/u...story.amp.html
No one at a serious level on the American left is calling for a dismantling of the means of production. So that's still capitalism. It is just capitalism with a reoriented and redirected set of priorities. Basically, FDR for the 21st century. While we can certainly debate the merits of a New Deal 2.0; it falls short of a truly radical reformatting of our economic way of life.
Regardless, when you tell people the plan is, "We're going to take more from you and give it to someone else," those people generally are not going to like the idea. Even more of a turn-off is that the same plan is being put forth culturally, not just economically. From a free economy to a managed economy; from freedom of expression to managed expression; from absolute rights to managed rights. It's all coming out as part of the same package deal. It is one thing when ideas and priorities evolve in a society over time - another thing entirely when one half tries to force the other half to go along with their plan by putting a gun in their back and a muzzle over their mouths.
In other words, people do not like being told what to do and where to fall in line - that is kind of the opposite of the guiding principles of this country.
One other thing - personally, I find it ridiculous that many liberals are essentially saying, "Look at me - I am going to be generous and selfless by forcing YOU to give more!" and never even realize the way that makes them look.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Array title="cold-hard-steel has a brilliant future">
So i guess the number of cases in Wisconsin will be the next State to have an increase of about 3000% of new cases of covid almost over night.
Actually it's just the opposite. Now gays are free to be themselves in public without the fear of being harassed, and we're working on blacks being able to be black without a cop overreacting when dealing with them by putting a knee on their neck or shooting them in the back.
Last edited by tom444; 06-25-2020 at 11:04 AM.
No, it's not the opposite at all. Discrimination is rejected and those who do it are ostracized. Gays, ethnic minorities, women, and any other identity group imaginable are protected classes. It's already been that way for 20 years. Discrimination is exceedingly rare and diminishing every day, but liberals want to make it seem like a huge problem when it's not. This is why you hear people talk about "setting equality back 50 years," because it's absolutely true.
Meanwhile, in the name of "equality" (the fake liberal equality, not the already-achieved real equality), they have sacrificed common sense; paralyzed official and private business with bureaucracy and liability concerns; and punish ordinary expression, not just racist expression. All the while thinking, "How can I use this to gain more power?" It is disgusting.
See you Space Cowboy ...
I totally acknowledge all of that. I would take issue with the managed bit, because that is not what I am seeing/hearing - unless you are using managed to mean regulation. And I was not attempting to argue that anyone has to like it, agree with it, or buy into it. But it isn't socialism and it is totally unnecessary and kinda silly to keep labeling it as such. It's like the plot of some stupid Cold War era B movie.
Fundamentally, Democracy is one half trying to force the other half to do something they don't want to do. Like the man said, Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others. Like I posted elsewhere, there have been dramatic social and cultural changes that were tremendously unpopular in their day that are now viewed as massively positive things. Suffrage, the New Deal, and Civil Rights were not very popular during their own times. No one is really keen on rolling those back now and all three were "forced" on some by powerful figures in one party over another.
In my not so humble opinion, what we are living through is a cultural shift in America. There is a growing # of younger Americans (say under 35-40) where the "classic" American mythos just doesn't work. They worked hard, went to school, tried to save money, and they are NOT better off than their parents. They can not own a home, find a steady career track job, and are drowning in debt. They see a system that is doing little to help them and a lot to help (bail out) the big $$$ boys. Internationally, they no longer believe in American exceptionalism and see an interconnected world that doesn't work well when a few nations attempt to dictate terms to everyone else and hold themselves out of it. Combine that with domestic and economic failures, and they have no interest in the "traditional American values". What do I mean? I mean that they view the game as rigged and refuse to play. They want new rules for a modified game they think they can actually succeed in. So we see the increasing idea that the "individual" should not be the focus and the distribution of rights, $$$, opportunity, and regulations should be on the collective. So I guess many will read that sentence and see scary Communist era socialism fears made real. But it isn't socialism in any sense that we were all raised to fear and revile. It is still capitalism. It is still entrepreneurship. It is still the Bill of Rights. Etc. Many Americans (and particularly younger Americans where the system has totally failed them) just want the priorities of how and where public funds are directed to change. Basically, big-ass government that spends a ton of money regulating the economy, erecting social safety nets, and using its fat old thumbs to tip the scales.
Again, I do not personally agree with all of that and I do not expect anyone else to by default and you certainly are not a bad person if you don't. But lets all stop jumping at shadows, seeing conspiracies and "deep state" nonsense at every turn. Stop calling stuff things that it isn't to just play on knee-jerk fears. Try and understand why people feel the way they do and what they are actually trying to say -- even if they say it badly and you disagree with it. America currently has about 3 generations of folks (large portions of X, Y, and Z -- i know they got really creative with naming these things) where the American Dream of the "Baby Boomers" just didn't work. A big % of folks are having the really fun experience of being the first adults in their family to go DOWN the socio-economic ladder. That tends to piss people off. Scare the hell out of them and make them scream for some sort of change.
So all these people are actually protesting in the name of "fake liberal equality" and everything is actually hunky dory?
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