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Thread: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

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    Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    For the Patriots, as with everyone else, the draft is a critical time to address your needs. Not only their success but also Bill Belichick’s emphasis on versatility makes his drafting strategy one of interest. So, Dave Archibald wonders, what the heck is with the fifth round?

    http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/teams-...round-updated/

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Bill Belichick's simple NFL draft philosophy can teach managers a lot about hiring employees

    Cork Gaines,
    6:59 pm CDT, Thursday, April 26, 2018

    https://www.chron.com/technology/bus...n-12868915.php


    • Bill Belichick has won five Super Bowls with the New England Patriot.
    • Much of the Patriots' success can be traced back to their success in the NFL Draft.
    • Belichick's draft philosophy is quite simple and suggests other teams overthink the process.


    1. "He's always about building a team. He's not trying to collect talent."

    One of the great debates on draft day is whether or not to fill positions of need or to just take the best player available. According to Lombardi, Belichick is always looking at how a player is going to fit on the roster and how he can contribute to the team.

    The Patriots did famously go against the philosophy once and it worked out. In 2000, the Patriots needed just about everything except quarterback. And yet, when they got to the sixth round, Brady was still on the board, a player they had graded much higher. At that point, they could no longer ignore the best player available.

    2. "Bill is all about not falling in love with a player. Bill is looking at value."


    Lombardi called Belichick a "stock broker" and says he is "very analytical" when it comes to the draft.
    Belichick is well known for trading down in the draft, something that goes back to early in his drafting career. Lombardi says this is because he is looking for value and he thinks the rising cost of rookies make early picks less valuable. Those rising costs were curbed greatly in 2011 with the new collective bargaining agreement. Belichick still likes to trade down and acquire more draft picks, but he may be less aggressive now.
    As an aside, Lombardi also noted that Belichick didn't want high-priced rookies on his team out of respect for the veterans on his team who had already given "blood, sweat, and tears for them to win."

    3. "The draft room will be very small."


    Lombardi calls Belichick "one of the best listeners of all time," but notes that he is "not looking for more opinions, he is looking for the right opinions."
    As a result of that approach, Lombardi says that Belichick will typically only have three or four other people in the draft war room with him. This is in stark contrast to the scenes of other team's war rooms shown on draft night when it often looks like there are 20 people or more in the room.

    4. Belichick only wants to coach players he likes.


    Recently, Urban Meyer pulled back the curtain on one of Belichick's roster-building philosophies. That is, Belichick has reached a point in his career where he can afford to be picky and jettison players he doesn't like.
    From Meyer:

    "I'm always amazed how he takes the non-stars and makes them stars," Meyer said while introducing Belichick at an Ohio State football clinic (via landof10.com). "He takes these players that you haven't really heard much about and all of a sudden they're making great plays in the biggest games of the year.


    "I started asking him about it and he made this point to me and I shared this with our team. He said, 'At this point in my career, I want to coach guys I like. I want to coach guys I want to be around and that's it and I'm not going to coach anybody else.'"


    Obviously Belichick does a lot of homework to prepare for the draft, and ultimately that work is the basis for selecting good players. But his draft-day philosophy is also amazingly simple and considering how much of a copy-cat league the NFL can be, it is surprising more teams don't mimic that.




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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Belichick’s drafts have been terrible.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Dont'a Hightower 1st round

    Brady 6th round

    Gronk 2nd round

    Jamie Collins 2nd round

    Asante Samuel 4th round

    Trey Flowers 4th round

    Shaq Mason 4th round

    Julian Edelman 7th round


    Just to name a few.




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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    Dont'a Hightower 1st round

    Brady 6th round

    Gronk 2nd round

    Jamie Collins 2nd round

    Asante Samuel 4th round

    Trey Flowers 4th round

    Shaq Mason 4th round

    Julian Edelman 7th round


    Just to name a few.



    Ok. Now do the same thing with all the bad picks over 20 years.

    He doesn't have a magic trick or anything. I bet side by side with insert non brain dead general manager here and it's pretty indistinguishable.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    If you say so.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    If you say so.
    Gee. If only a website existed that allowed you to search and compare drafts. If I could invent that I'd call it pro football reference. Thatd be cool. Too bad nothing like that exists.

    What round did the mystic draft whisperer take Ras I Dowling in again? What about Aaron Dobson or whatever his name was that couldn't play WR? What about the parade of forgettable lineman?

    Too bad we will just never know.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    If you say so.

    In the TB/BB era (2001-present),

    - The Pats have gone 220-68 (.764) in the regular season.
    - They've won 16 division titles in 18 seasons.
    - They've gone 30-10 in the playoffs.
    - They've played in 13 AFC Championship games, winning 9.
    - They've played in 9 Super Bowls, winning 6.
    - They've won 10+ games in 17 of the 18 seasons.
    - They've won 12+ games in 12 of the 18 seasons.
    - They've not made the playoffs only twice, and in those two seasons they missed out on tiebreakers.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    If you say so.

    In the TB/BB era (2001-present),

    - The Pats have gone 220-68 (.764) in the regular season.
    - They've won 16 division titles in 18 seasons.
    - They've gone 30-10 in the playoffs.
    - They've played in 13 AFC Championship games, winning 9.
    - They've played in 9 Super Bowls, winning 6.
    - They've won 10+ games in 17 of the 18 seasons.
    - They've won 12+ games in 12 of the 18 seasons.
    - They've not made the playoffs only twice, and in those two seasons they missed out on tiebreakers.
    Ok. Solid collection of information that has little to do with whether or not they drafted any better or worse than anyone else.

    I seem to remember a little thing called the free agent market that the Pats are well known for mining talent from almost better than anyone else.

    I've done the exercise before. And the Pats draft pretty well. So does Colbert. So did Ozzie Newsome. Whoever built some of those recent Chargers team does pretty good.

    They draft better than some but not better than all. Not sure what's so controversial about that. I'd bet they hit between 30-50 percent. Just like non crappy GMs do.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Ok. Solid collection of information that has little to do with whether or not they drafted any better or worse than anyone else.
    Sure.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    Sure.
    Whatever.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    There have been some great football players drafted by “The Bill”. I think they average something like 25 picks every draft though.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    The record shows Belichick gets what he needs and that's better than most do.

    In the TB/BB era (2001-present),

    - The Pats have gone 220-68 (.764) in the regular season.
    - They've won 16 division titles in 18 seasons.
    - They've gone 30-10 in the playoffs.
    - They've played in 13 AFC Championship games, winning 9.
    - They've played in 9 Super Bowls, winning 6.
    - They've won 10+ games in 17 of the 18 seasons.
    - They've won 12+ games in 12 of the 18 seasons.
    - They've not made the playoffs only twice, and in those two seasons they missed out on tiebreakers.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    The record shows Belichick gets what he needs and that's better than most do.

    In the TB/BB era (2001-present),

    - The Pats have gone 220-68 (.764) in the regular season.
    - They've won 16 division titles in 18 seasons.
    - They've gone 30-10 in the playoffs.
    - They've played in 13 AFC Championship games, winning 9.
    - They've played in 9 Super Bowls, winning 6.
    - They've won 10+ games in 17 of the 18 seasons.
    - They've won 12+ games in 12 of the 18 seasons.
    - They've not made the playoffs only twice, and in those two seasons they missed out on tiebreakers.
    You can repeat the same set of facts and figures ad infinitum, but it still does not directly tie to your original hypothesis. Specifically, that Billy B and the Patriots are significantly better at identifying and selecting awesome players in the draft than other NFL teams. To do that you would have to look at the # of players drafted and come up with some benchmark discriminator for "success" or failure" for each pick (maybe something like games started or the Average Value stat at Pro Football Reference (too bad that is only a site I imagined)) and then score the last almost two decades of Patriots drafts. Then you would have to pick 2-4 "control" groups (other NFL teams - Steelers and Ravens would be excellent in this regard as they were largely run by the same folks over a similar period of time) and do the same thing. Then if the Patriots came out significantly ahead, you would know that there was a strong correlation between the draft and their on-field success. If they didn't, then something besides being better at the draft than similar NFL teams was/is driving their amazing record of success.

    But, I'm gonna take a shot in the dark that you have no interest in doing all that. Nor do I, but the point is that until you take a look at something in greater detail, you original theory is not really supported by anything other than your opinion and a cherry-picked list of players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Of course now that I logged in on the computer rather than my phone, i see the location information for this guy and realize what is going on here. So, yeah, nevermind. Not going to get much in the way of useful response here.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Specifically, that Billy B and the Patriots are significantly better at identifying and selecting awesome players in the draft than other NFL teams.

    Nobody said that. That's your hangup. Belichick gets what he needs by knowing what he wants. That's the point.

    i see the location information for this guy and realize what is going on here
    What's going on here is that you're just running off at the mouth without thinking.

    Did you see this?: "1. "He's always about building a team. He's not trying to collect talent."

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Sigh. You posted a select list of Patriots draft picks immediately after a post that claimed that Billy B is not very good at drafting players. I assumed that this meant you disagreed and believed that Billy and the Pats were above average or better at drafting.

    I then posted that neither your nor the article provided much in the way to back up that point. You then pointed to their amazing and unprecedented run of wins, playoffs appearances, and SBs as evidence that this meant that Bill and the fellas were awesome at drafting. Or at least that is what I assumed. Now if all you meant is that Bill gets guys that fit his system and is totally mercenary about ensuring that players know the system and execute it -- fine. I've long held that belief as well. However, if you were attempting to argue or imply that the unprecedented run of wins and success was causally linked to drafting at a better or more efficient rate than other comparable NFL teams, I stand by my original statement that this is not true based on my current understanding. Feel, differently -- prove me wrong by breaking down the drafts in some sort of analytical manner.

    I would suspect that if you are living in Boston, you are either a Pats fan or at least have been inundated with the idea that Billy and Pats are infallible football knowing mystics that have somehow "hacked" the NFL in order to cause their incredible run of success. I would argue that, at least in the draft, Bill is mortal, just like any other GM. He has successful, average, and really bad picks. At about the same rate as the "non mouth breathing GMs". Again, I do not think that anyone I have heard discuss this or had this conversation with has really disagreed with that.

    Based on your postings, it came across that you did. However, now you seem to be arguing for something fundamentally different - that the Pats get "their" kind of guys. Granted. So I have no idea what your list of random Patriots draft picks was attempting to communicate? Those are all "Patriots" type players? They were "great" draft picks because they were coachable and talent was a secondary concern?

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Sigh. You posted a select list of Patriots draft picks immediately after a post that claimed that Billy B is not very good at drafting players. I assumed that this meant you disagreed and believed that Billy and the Pats were above average or better at drafting.

    I then posted that neither your nor the article provided much in the way to back up that point. You then pointed to their amazing and unprecedented run of wins, playoffs appearances, and SBs as evidence that this meant that Bill and the fellas were awesome at drafting. Or at least that is what I assumed. Now if all you meant is that Bill gets guys that fit his system and is totally mercenary about ensuring that players know the system and execute it -- fine. I've long held that belief as well. However, if you were attempting to argue or imply that the unprecedented run of wins and success was causally linked to drafting at a better or more efficient rate than other comparable NFL teams, I stand by my original statement that this is not true based on my current understanding. Feel, differently -- prove me wrong by breaking down the drafts in some sort of analytical manner.

    I would suspect that if you are living in Boston, you are either a Pats fan or at least have been inundated with the idea that Billy and Pats are infallible football knowing mystics that have somehow "hacked" the NFL in order to cause their incredible run of success. I would argue that, at least in the draft, Bill is mortal, just like any other GM. He has successful, average, and really bad picks. At about the same rate as the "non mouth breathing GMs". Again, I do not think that anyone I have heard discuss this or had this conversation with has really disagreed with that.

    Based on your postings, it came across that you did. However, now you seem to be arguing for something fundamentally different - that the Pats get "their" kind of guys. Granted. So I have no idea what your list of random Patriots draft picks was attempting to communicate? Those are all "Patriots" type players? They were "great" draft picks because they were coachable and talent was a secondary concern?

    I'm not arguing anything different at all. Why would Belichick look for anything but his kind of guy? Who else would have taken Edleman and kept him for 4 years as he learned the system and became what he is now? You draft who you can coach up and develop into someone who contributes. Is there anyone better at that in the NFL? If so, who?

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    I'm not arguing anything different at all. Why would Belichick look for anything but his kind of guy? Who else would have taken Edleman and kept him for 4 years as he learned the system and became what he is now? You draft who you can coach up and develop into someone who contributes. Is there anyone better at that in the NFL? If so, who?
    So that's a totally different but related discussion regarding roster building than whether or not individual draft picks are better or worse.

    I've never done anything but credit the Patriots for identifying guys that fit their system and teaching them how to excel within that system.

    But I don't believe it is because their draft haul is either significantly better or worse than anyone else. I've believed it is due to how frequently and proficiently the torn over the bottom 1/4 or 1/3 of their roster in a constant search for "their guys". Something I've never grasped why more teams don't seek to emulate.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    But I don't believe it is because their draft haul is either significantly better or worse than anyone else. .
    You're still not getting it. They draft what THEY want, not what someone else might consider better. What others think is a better player is meaningless. When you talk about Patriot draft picks you're about players for their system, not players being graded by some other rating system. And clearly they're better at that because they beat almost everybody else.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    I've clearly laid out what I'm attempting to explain. I've credited the Patriots for obtaining "their guys".

    Further, just as with EVERY team, their draft history is littered with failed picks and guys that didn't pan out. I strongly suspect that this ratio of success and failure in the draft is similar to other successful teams.

    Ricardo Cocolough=Dowling
    Limas Sweed=Dobson
    Timmons=Hightower
    Etc etc.

    Taking that broadly equivalent draft hual and achieving record success on the field year in and year out is a testament to player development and weekly gameplan. Not some magical ability to do the draft more gooder or whatever.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Taking that broadly equivalent draft hual and achieving record success on the field year in and year out is a testament to player development and weekly gameplan. Not some magical ability to do the draft more gooder or whatever.
    You have to draft coachable, adaptable, smart players to do that.

    As for some magical ability? There's nothing magical about being better. There are reasons for it.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    You have to draft coachable, adaptable, smart players to do that.

    As for some magical ability? There's nothing magical about being better. There are reasons for it.


    Yes.....reasons.




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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    More reasons......



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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    More reasons......



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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Any more funny pages materiel, pczach?

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    Any more funny pages materiel, pczach?


    Sure.....By one of your own that knows everything.



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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    Sure.....By one of your own that knows everything.


    Ah huh, and Belichick is running a dynasty while Mangini is an occasional guest on sports radio where he openly regrets reporting the taping. "what it became is not anything I would have wanted"

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    Ah huh, and Belichick is running a dynasty while Mangini is an occasional guest on sports radio where he openly regrets reporting the taping. "what it became is not anything I would have wanted"

    No....nice try. He was Billy's right hand man.

    He's a Bill Belichick disciple that was also a very close friend of his. He knows where all the bodies were buried and you know it. He called Belichick on his cheating when he tried to screw Mangini and his team over. He knew exactly how Belichick cheats because he got to see it first hand and then Belichick tried to do it to him. Belichick bet that Mangini didn't have the stones to report him. He just assumed he would take it. He was wrong. Mangini called his bluff and reported him to the NFL.

    Mangini is the only one showing class here by downplaying the impact of the cheating. Belichick wouldn't be doing it if it didn't give him an advantage. Everyone knows it.

    Cut the denial bullshit. Your team has cheated its way to many of their successes.

    You can sell your bullshit at your Patriot message boards. Plenty of cult followers over there to believe your delusional nonsense so you can e-high five each other and declare your superiority while drinking the Kool Aid together.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    Mangini is the only one showing class here by downplaying the impact of the cheating. Belichick wouldn't be doing it if it didn't give him an advantage. Everyone knows it.

    Cut the denial bullshit. Your team has cheated its way to many of their successes.

    You can sell your bullshit at your Patriot message boards. Plenty of cult followers over there to believe your delusional nonsense so you can e-high five each other and declare your superiority while drinking the Kool Aid together.
    Well, you might be this stupid I suppose. They're out there. Or you could be just chickensh*t.

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    Re: Why Does Bill Belichick Hate the Fifth Round? (updated)

    Just think...if Belichick were less greedy and didn’t cheat against Mangini and the Jets, they’d probably still be getting away with it today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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