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Thread: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

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    BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    At this point it seems clear to everyone that ILB is going to be Pittsburgh's primary target in the draft, especially with the loss of L.J. Fort to free agency. The two Devins (White and Bush) have risen to be the targets of choice but they are not the only ones out there.
    Please share your thoughts in the Comments. One thing the Combine proved is the serious gap in talent between the top few Mack ILB targets, the clear #3 in Mack Wilson, and then the rest of the crowd. There aren't a lot of names to look at even in the late-2nd and 3rd round areas. That situation would be a bit different if we did not apply a stern discount to the traditional thumping Buck ILB types, but it seems pretty obvious that the Steelers have no particular need in that area unless the player is a unique freak athlete like Josh Allen (who Ain't Gonna Happen).

    https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...t-combine-ilbs

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Cause LJ Fort was a huge loss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Cause LJ Fort was a huge loss?
    Apparently.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    David Long, WV is gonna make some team very happy. If he was 2” taller and 10 lbs heavier, he’d be being discussed as a fringe R1 player. He was the Big 12 DPOY and second-team All American for a reason.

    Tomlin has drafted several big SSs/small ILBs in the past five years. Plus, Tomlin always seems to add one Mountaineer to the roster. Long would easily be my choice.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    David Long, WV is gonna make some team very happy. If he was 2” taller and 10 lbs heavier, he’d be being discussed as a fringe R1 player. He was the Big 12 DPOY and second-team All American for a reason.

    Tomlin has drafted several big SSs/small ILBs in the past five years. Plus, Tomlin always seems to add one Mountaineer to the roster. Long would easily be my choice.
    I figured you'd sniff out a WV player.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    David Long, WV is gonna make some team very happy. If he was 2” taller and 10 lbs heavier, he’d be being discussed as a fringe R1 player. He was the Big 12 DPOY and second-team All American for a reason.

    Tomlin has drafted several big SSs/small ILBs in the past five years. Plus, Tomlin always seems to add one Mountaineer to the roster. Long would easily be my choice.

    His size is a little bit of a concern, but he looks athletic. I've heard mixed reviews about him and claims of him being a liability in coverage. What have you seen in that regard teeg?

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    His size is a little bit of a concern, but he looks athletic. I've heard mixed reviews about him and claims of him being a liability in coverage. What have you seen in that regard teeg?
    I think his best fit is as a WILL LB.

    he also has no INTs in 33 games played, we need to find defensive playmakers.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    David Long, WV is gonna make some team very happy. If he was 2” taller and 10 lbs heavier, he’d be being discussed as a fringe R1 player. He was the Big 12 DPOY and second-team All American for a reason.

    Tomlin has drafted several big SSs/small ILBs in the past five years. Plus, Tomlin always seems to add one Mountaineer to the roster. Long would easily be my choice.
    I read a comparison that said David Long is a more durable version of Devin Bush at a later round discount.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    His size is a little bit of a concern, but he looks athletic. I've heard mixed reviews about him and claims of him being a liability in coverage. What have you seen in that regard teeg?
    He is best moving forward: blitzing, pass-rushing, run stuffing. If there’s a two-inch gap, he’s burst through it and get the ball carrier.

    He’s good in straight line coverage (good speed), but a cut/change of direction can leave his man uncovered. It is why he played LB (instead of the SPUR position).

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    I think his best fit is as a WILL LB.

    he also has no INTs in 33 games played, we need to find defensive playmakers.
    The 3-3-5 is predicated on the front six handling the run, and the back five creating havoc. Is the SPUR gonna play ILB or SS or FS or CB? Every DB can play every position... especially the SPUR. So, it makes opposing QBs have to “think”... which leads to turnovers.

    Long’s responsibility was playing around/controlling the LOS. So, he wasn’t asked to “get” INTs; that was the job of the back five. (Does that make sense?)

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    I read a comparison that said David Long is a more durable version of Devin Bush at a later round discount.
    Yea, they both even wear the same jersey colors.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    David Long, WV is gonna make some team very happy. If he was 2” taller and 10 lbs heavier, he’d be being discussed as a fringe R1 player. He was the Big 12 DPOY and second-team All American for a reason.

    Tomlin has drafted several big SSs/small ILBs in the past five years. Plus, Tomlin always seems to add one Mountaineer to the roster. Long would easily be my choice.
    So where do you think he ends up? round 3-5 ?

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    So where do you think he ends up? round 3-5 ?
    The lack of ILBs in the NFL (and/or in this draft) will move him into very-early Day 3.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    I think his best fit is as a WILL LB.

    he also has no INTs in 33 games played, we need to find defensive playmakers.


    They definitely need to find players that can take the ball away.

    Don't get me wrong, I'll take a guy that's great in coverage but if you can get your hands on a guy with good technique and coverage skills that also has instincts and ball skills....sign me up for that please.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    He is best moving forward: blitzing, pass-rushing, run stuffing. If there’s a two-inch gap, he’s burst through it and get the ball carrier.

    He’s good in straight line coverage (good speed), but a cut/change of direction can leave his man uncovered. It is why he played LB (instead of the SPUR position).

    Thanks for the breakdown teeg. I wanted your opinion because you see a lot of WVU games and really get to see the strengths and weaknesses.

    I like his aggressiveness near the LOS, but don't see him showing much in coverage. Maybe they see him as a replacement for Williams or Bostic at a much cheaper price.

    As you know, I had him in one of my mocks at Fanspeak.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    Thanks for the breakdown teeg. I wanted your opinion because you see a lot of WVU games and really get to see the strengths and weaknesses.

    I like his aggressiveness near the LOS, but don't see him showing much in coverage. Maybe they see him as a replacement for Williams or Bostic at a much cheaper price.

    As you know, I had him in one of my mocks at Fanspeak.
    The Chargers drafted Jatavis Brown, Kyzir White, and Derwin James. Those three are basically the same player (albeit, James is heads & shoulders better than the other two... but, Brown & White were much cheaper versions).

    The Chargers run a base 4-3, but they get all three of those players on the field a lot (nickel, dime)... and, they switch to a 3-4 routinely. During pre-season, White played MLB/ILB... and all three were on the field together a ton. (Once White went on IR, they replaced him with another SS/LB.)

    SUMMATION:
    Even if they draft Bush, I could see a guy like Long brought in (R4) as the primary backup and/or to replace Burnett/Barron as the “dime ‘backer”.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Hey, I dont see Khalil Hodge anywhere in that article. Wasnt he supposed to be a kind of big deal at ILB?

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    The 3-3-5 is predicated on the front six handling the run, and the back five creating havoc. Is the SPUR gonna play ILB or SS or FS or CB? Every DB can play every position... especially the SPUR. So, it makes opposing QBs have to “think”... which leads to turnovers.

    Long’s responsibility was playing around/controlling the LOS. So, he wasn’t asked to “get” INTs; that was the job of the back five. (Does that make sense?)
    Given the unique kinds of defensive players that come out of WV, and the numbers in which they seem to produce them in the scheme that they run - I would really like to see their coach hired as a defensive coordinator and try that kind of defense with all NFL players. It could be the next genius innovation, or it could be a belly flop, or it could be kind of inconclusive good-bad like the Chip Kelly offense.

    Nonetheless, it couldn't be much worse than Butler's "96" defense (named after the year it was apparently invented) and more importantly, it seems like whoever is in charge there has a nose for identifying players, even ones who are not necessarily Tier 1 blue chip types, and developing them to play a role really well. Don't know if that's their head coach or the DC or both, but someone please take a closer look at that guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    The lack of ILBs in the NFL (and/or in this draft) will move him into very-early Day 3.
    This sounds like a much better idea than reaching for Mack with all his well-documented issues in R1, or trading half a draft to move up into the top 10 for one of the two guys everybody wants and fit our profile.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    I saw a couple mock drafts that have us taking CB (Byron Murphy) or TE (Noah Fant) in rd. 1, and Germaine Pratt with our 3rd round pick (one had use using the Raiders' 3rd rounder, another one had us using our 3rd rounder). In any case if we don't land Bush, I'd be happy with Pratt with either 3rd round pick. I do like the speed that Bush and David Long have, but Pratt's also got good speed for the position, and at 240 lbs, won't have to beef up to step in and play. With that said though I'd be OK with any of the 3.

    In a way, I kind of like the idea of getting Fant and a linebacker in the 3rd round. TE is now one of our most shallow positions, we have the injury prone McDonald, with grimble as the #2 After the Barron signing, I'm starting to think TE is more of a draft priority than ILB at the moment.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Goodell View Post
    I saw a couple mock drafts that have us taking CB (Byron Murphy) or TE (Noah Fant) in rd. 1, and Germaine Pratt with our 3rd round pick (one had use using the Raiders' 3rd rounder, another one had us using our 3rd rounder). In any case if we don't land Bush, I'd be happy with Pratt with either 3rd round pick.

    In a way, I kind of like the idea of getting Fant and a linebacker in the 3rd round. TE is now one of our most shallow positions, we have the injury prone McDonald, with grimble as the #2 After the Barron signing, I'm starting to think TE is more of a draft priority than ILB at the moment.
    This is why I am very hopeful of this year's draft. Steelers can do any one of 3 things (Upgrade ILB spot, Upgrade TE spot, Draft CB as understudy to 30 year old Joe Haden) and it will benefit the team. No need to reach, just take BPA in one of those areas and you are good IMO.

    I also think that if they cant find their ILB in round 1, then guys like Pratt and Terrill Hanks (both converted Safeties that are 6'2") on day 2 can be the kind of athletic ILB in coverage and weakside pursuit, which are good picks as well.

    I also like the idea of taking Justin Hollins OLB in the 5th. That might be high, but he has some upside at 6'5" 250lbs and was MVP of the Shrine game. Ran a 4.5 and benched 25 reps with 36.5" vertical. I think he would replace Chickillo in 2020 and who knows if he develops into a starter.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Goodell View Post
    I saw a couple mock drafts that have us taking CB (Byron Murphy) or TE (Noah Fant) in rd. 1, and Germaine Pratt with our 3rd round pick (one had use using the Raiders' 3rd rounder, another one had us using our 3rd rounder). In any case if we don't land Bush, I'd be happy with Pratt with either 3rd round pick. I do like the speed that Bush and David Long have, but Pratt's also got good speed for the position, and at 240 lbs, won't have to beef up to step in and play. With that said though I'd be OK with any of the 3.

    In a way, I kind of like the idea of getting Fant and a linebacker in the 3rd round. TE is now one of our most shallow positions, we have the injury prone McDonald, with grimble as the #2 After the Barron signing, I'm starting to think TE is more of a draft priority than ILB at the moment.
    That’s intetesting. I dropped CB down the list because of the Nelson signing. I think he would start over whoever we drafted anyway. TE has been a top 5 need. With JJ leaving a stable of McDonald, Grimble, Hodges, and McGee, I would put TE at 2 behind ILB. The signings of Moncreif and Rogers moves WR behind TE as well. This is becoming a very interesting draft season indeed.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Hey, I dont see Khalil Hodge anywhere in that article. Wasnt he supposed to be a kind of big deal at ILB?
    If you’re referring to my question a few months ago, then yea... I guess. I asked if reaching for an ILB at 20 was better than drafting “name” in R2... and I used the name Hodge as an example. My bad... I guess.

    Moreso, after his “name” was mentioned, I followed up by legitimately asking about Hodge. It was a question; I was not saying Hodge was a big deal (nor, saying Hodge was a legitimate candidate at 52). Again, my bad.

    Carry on.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Given the unique kinds of defensive players that come out of WV, and the numbers in which they seem to produce them in the scheme that they run - I would really like to see their coach hired as a defensive coordinator and try that kind of defense with all NFL players. It could be the next genius innovation, or it could be a belly flop, or it could be kind of inconclusive good-bad like the Chip Kelly offense.

    Nonetheless, it couldn't be much worse than Butler's "96" defense (named after the year it was apparently invented) and more importantly, it seems like whoever is in charge there has a nose for identifying players, even ones who are not necessarily Tier 1 blue chip types, and developing them to play a role really well. Don't know if that's their head coach or the DC or both, but someone please take a closer look at that guy.



    This sounds like a much better idea than reaching for Mack with all his well-documented issues in R1, or trading half a draft to move up into the top 10 for one of the two guys everybody wants and fit our profile.
    I think that people see the 3-3-5 as too gimmicky, but with so much done, nickel, & quarter defense being played, it’s no longer a gimmick.

    I agree: draft the BPA at 20... and get a player who’s “better than Bostic” later in the draft.

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    Junior Member Array title="Leopardo will become famous soon enough"> Leopardo's Avatar

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Hi, first time I post here but I'm following this forum for years now as it provides good discussions with often well-reasoned arguments.

    The reason I decided to post now is that by everything I read our main target in the first round of this draft supposedly is Devin Bush. He's a fast riser on many draft boards and constantly is going at #20 (our pick) or higher in mock drafts. Since there's a good chance we draft him at 20 or even trade up for him, I've watched a lot of tape of him. Especially because many draftnicks and almost every Steelers fan (not only on this board) is high on him and I am not. I will explain why.

    When I first watched his tape, I already had a meh feeling. Then I watched one of Michigan's games entirely and I simply barely noticed him. As teegre called it in the Mack Wilson topic "the blink approach". Then I watched him more closely, focusing only on him during games. And there is where things were even getting worse for me. I didn't see him around the ball ever except when he was schemed into it. He had terrible instincts and was constantly reacting too late to plays. I saw a player who was awful in coverage and got lost in zones way too easy. That was the tape so I thought I must have watched his worst games and he will have great stats since everyone likes him so much. But that wasn't the case as his production is even worse...

    His stats: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb...in-bush-2.html

    I won't focus on his first year since he barely played. So in 25 games he has 85 solo tackles (less than 3.5/game), 76 assisted (which is good), 18.5 tackles for loss and 10 sacks (mediocre at best), 1 interception (meh) and 0 FF and 0 fumble recoveries which is really astonishing. The guy has only 1 turnover in his entire college career and has 0 forced fumbles and recoveries which kind of proves my point that he's never around the ball. I clearly miss the splash plays. Another fact that I don't like is that his production didn't increase in his third season compared to the second, so there's a lack of progress. Personally, I would put a 3rd round grade on him and I have real concerns about him if he ever will pan out in the NFL.

    Compared to Shazier (both played in the Big Ten): https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb...shazier-1.html

    I like to compare them because they played in the same conference and they have more or less the same physical skill set (Shazier is taller though). Shazier's stats are way up in every aspect of the game and he was also making progress every year. I remember that Shazier was often overrunning plays, but his instincts were good. Bush's reactions are just too slow for my liking, it seems that he can't diagnose plays.

    So my question to you guys is: What am I missing? And what makes you think that he can produce in the NFL, while he even couldn't in college? I hope you can convince me that he's a really good player.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopardo View Post

    I like to compare them because they played in the same conference and they have more or less the same physical skill set (Shazier is taller though). Shazier's stats are way up in every aspect of the game and he was also making progress every year. I remember that Shazier was often overrunning plays, but his instincts were good. Bush's reactions are just too slow for my liking, it seems that he can't diagnose plays.

    So my question to you guys is: What am I missing? And what makes you think that he can produce in the NFL, while he even couldn't in college? I hope you can convince me that he's a really good player.
    First, its difficult to compare STATS from 2 different players, in 2 different defenses, some 4-5 years apart. Bush is part of such a talented defense, that often guys up front on the D line are making tackles before the ball gets to 2nd level....or teams are throwing passes downfield to challenge the CB's. You may think that Bush is slow to react in pass plays on film, but he is just playing zone in the middle of the field and spying the QB's a lot. Here is my breakdown

    vs. Run

    Positives-Bush rarely takes a false step and is always moving forward on runs between the tackles. Likewise, he has a quick read step and has speed to get to the edge on off tackle, pitches or outside zone runs. Takes good angles, uses hands to shed blockers on the way to the football and sure tackler.
    Negatives- can get caught up in blocks between the tackles, where the Interior linemen are outweighing him and he doesn't have long arms to shiver and get off them as well as bigger LB.

    vs. Pass
    -Positives- he is very fast and fluid athlete. Knows his responsibility and quickly finds his man in man coverage and runs with them, so most QB's didn't throw at his receiver when covered so well. In zone, he mostly had the middle zone and he stepped to crossing routes well, although a lot of teams I saw on tape didn't run a lot of crossing routes inside, so he is just standing and reading QB and spying. He reacts well to WR screens and gets to the edge quickly.
    -Negatives- lacks height and arm length, so taller TE's can reach over him to catch passes. Likes contact, so can get a bit grabby or aggressive in rerouting the TE and he stops his feet when hitting them. Lack of height may not take away zone passing lanes well, but Michigan played a lot of man coverage in their secondary, so wasn't a responsibility a lot.

    Summary- Bush is a technician at ILB, as he takes decisive read steps forward at every snap, quickly finds the football and keeps his feet moving towards it. He covers backs and TE's in man very well, but often can give away size to them. He is quick and fast to the edges, quick to get to a gap between the tackles, but not a big thumper in the middle that will get off blocks of 300lb OG's. Good blitzer, plays with an edge and was a leader.

    My best pro comparison is Jonathan Vilma and I still think the 5'11" height, shorter arms will push him towards the 15-25 range. But its possible that some teams will view him as a shorter Bobby Wagner and he could go earlier.

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    I think that people see the 3-3-5 as too gimmicky, but with so much done, nickel, & quarter defense being played, it’s no longer a gimmick.

    I agree: draft the BPA at 20... and get a player who’s “better than Bostic” later in the draft.
    A 3-3-5 according to "traditional" NFL standards - that is, take a beefy linebacker off the field and replace him with a slot corner who's 5'9" and a buck eighty - THAT is kind of gimmicky. Situational, since there's a pretty straightforward tradeoff that the offense can take advantage of if you do it on every play.

    Step out of the traditional mindset, and replace that slot corner with a hard-hitting safety with coverage skills, though? NOW we're talking. Make sure the remaining MLB is really good against both the run and the pass? Now you're really rolling.

    Of course, the problem is that it takes a certain kind of player to make that work, better yet two very talented players. Ideally, you'd want Ronnie Lott and Patrick Willis, but what's more typically available is Sean Davis or equivalent. So that's where it's important to have a person who can either make Sean Davis work ok in that system, or if possible, take half a dozen players who LOOK exactly like Sean Davis to the everyday observer, and identify the one guy who is going to be an absolute stud in his system.

    Then while everyone else is still sitting around scratching their asses saying, "Well that'll never work - how good is a third safety usually? omg you dont even want that guy on the field!!" meanwhile you're laughing your ass off because it's not a third safety at all, its a different position entirely, that's just how they classify it in their walnut-sized brains.

    Then for the next five drafts, everyone else is climbing all over themselves to draft Sean Davis clones in the top 15 picks without knowing what made it work for you, so they all bust out, and you pile up 400-pound fat guys or whatever it is you need with cheap draft picks while they waste their time. It's like everybody else is still smoking crack, but you moved on to Alabama Liquid Snake years ago and you've been getting 15 times as high, and they're still trying to copy you with crack even though it just doesn't work that way.

    Anyway, THAT'S what you need that kind of a coach for. Someone who can think differently and help you live out your crack-smoking fantasies.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    First, its difficult to compare STATS from 2 different players, in 2 different defenses, some 4-5 years apart. Bush is part of such a talented defense, that often guys up front on the D line are making tackles before the ball gets to 2nd level....or teams are throwing passes downfield to challenge the CB's. You may think that Bush is slow to react in pass plays on film, but he is just playing zone in the middle of the field and spying the QB's a lot. Here is my breakdown

    vs. Run

    Positives-Bush rarely takes a false step and is always moving forward on runs between the tackles. Likewise, he has a quick read step and has speed to get to the edge on off tackle, pitches or outside zone runs. Takes good angles, uses hands to shed blockers on the way to the football and sure tackler.
    Negatives- can get caught up in blocks between the tackles, where the Interior linemen are outweighing him and he doesn't have long arms to shiver and get off them as well as bigger LB.

    vs. Pass
    -Positives- he is very fast and fluid athlete. Knows his responsibility and quickly finds his man in man coverage and runs with them, so most QB's didn't throw at his receiver when covered so well. In zone, he mostly had the middle zone and he stepped to crossing routes well, although a lot of teams I saw on tape didn't run a lot of crossing routes inside, so he is just standing and reading QB and spying. He reacts well to WR screens and gets to the edge quickly.
    -Negatives- lacks height and arm length, so taller TE's can reach over him to catch passes. Likes contact, so can get a bit grabby or aggressive in rerouting the TE and he stops his feet when hitting them. Lack of height may not take away zone passing lanes well, but Michigan played a lot of man coverage in their secondary, so wasn't a responsibility a lot.

    Summary- Bush is a technician at ILB, as he takes decisive read steps forward at every snap, quickly finds the football and keeps his feet moving towards it. He covers backs and TE's in man very well, but often can give away size to them. He is quick and fast to the edges, quick to get to a gap between the tackles, but not a big thumper in the middle that will get off blocks of 300lb OG's. Good blitzer, plays with an edge and was a leader.

    My best pro comparison is Jonathan Vilma and I still think the 5'11" height, shorter arms will push him towards the 15-25 range. But its possible that some teams will view him as a shorter Bobby Wagner and he could go earlier.
    Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. I will give him another chance in a week or so as I feel I'm too biased right now. Sometimes you have your draft favorites or in this case the opposite for me and then it's hard to change an opinion.

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    Senior Member Array title="teegre has a reputation beyond repute"> teegre's Avatar

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    A 3-3-5 according to "traditional" NFL standards - that is, take a beefy linebacker off the field and replace him with a slot corner who's 5'9" and a buck eighty - THAT is kind of gimmicky. Situational, since there's a pretty straightforward tradeoff that the offense can take advantage of if you do it on every play.

    Step out of the traditional mindset, and replace that slot corner with a hard-hitting safety with coverage skills, though? NOW we're talking. Make sure the remaining MLB is really good against both the run and the pass? Now you're really rolling.

    Of course, the problem is that it takes a certain kind of player to make that work, better yet two very talented players. Ideally, you'd want Ronnie Lott and Patrick Willis, but what's more typically available is Sean Davis or equivalent. So that's where it's important to have a person who can either make Sean Davis work ok in that system, or if possible, take half a dozen players who LOOK exactly like Sean Davis to the everyday observer, and identify the one guy who is going to be an absolute stud in his system.

    Then while everyone else is still sitting around scratching their asses saying, "Well that'll never work - how good is a third safety usually? omg you dont even want that guy on the field!!" meanwhile you're laughing your ass off because it's not a third safety at all, its a different position entirely, that's just how they classify it in their walnut-sized brains.

    Then for the next five drafts, everyone else is climbing all over themselves to draft Sean Davis clones in the top 15 picks without knowing what made it work for you, so they all bust out, and you pile up 400-pound fat guys or whatever it is you need with cheap draft picks while they waste their time. It's like everybody else is still smoking crack, but you moved on to Alabama Liquid Snake years ago and you've been getting 15 times as high, and they're still trying to copy you with crack even though it just doesn't work that way.

    Anyway, THAT'S what you need that kind of a coach for. Someone who can think differently and help you live out your crack-smoking fantasies.
    At WVU, they call that dime ‘backer the SPUR.

    The Steelers have been trying to draft a SPUR for years. Sean Spence (before he ruined his knee), Ryan Shazier, Travis Feeney ...Terrell Edmunds, Marcus Allen... without much success. (They looked hard at Jabrill Peppers, and also tried to trade up for Jatavis Brown, but the Chargers snagged him.) Summation: it’s quite difficult to find those guys.

    Jamal Adams is an example. Kam Chancellor is another. The Chargers have three: Kyzir White, the aforementioned Jatavis Brown, and the perfect SPUR: Derwin James.

    The Chargers showed what they can do with those SPUR players when they played the Ravens in the playoffs (although, White was on IR). The problem against the Taperiots was that theChargers (foolishly) stuck with this defense while Belichick went “heavy”.

    The Chargers also have very good CBs... and, as you stated in another thread, the secondary is only as good as it’s weakeat link. The WVU 3-3-5 requires any of the five DBs to play ANY of the five secondary spots on any given play. It allows them to switch coverages at the snap, in turn, confusing opposing QBs. It’s sort of like how Ryan Clark was able to cover “vacated areas” when Troy would freelance. What you want is four DBs who are able to “cover” for the one other DB who freelances. Who freelances?... it changes on every play.

    Now, imagine coordinated “freelancing”, where the SS covers the outside WR, and the QB thinks “mismatch”, but at the snap, the SS blitzes and the FS & CB are actually bracketing that WR... the QB has to now look for the open man, but the FS (and David Long) have made a bee-line towards the QB, giving the QB only 0.5 seconds to throw.

    That’s akin to a vape pen disguised as a cellphone, full of Walter White blue. As long as your defense doesn’t go all “Heisenberg” (“enlarged ego”) like the Chargers did against the Taperiots, you’ll be set for life. Oh... and don’t kill Gus Fring. Work with him; he’s a genius.

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    Senior Member Array title="steelreserve has a reputation beyond repute"> steelreserve's Avatar

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    At WVU, they call that dime ‘backer the SPUR.

    The Steelers have been trying to draft a SPUR for years. Sean Spence (before he ruined his knee), Ryan Shazier, Travis Feeney ...Terrell Edmunds, Marcus Allen... without much success. (They looked hard at Jabrill Peppers, and also tried to trade up for Jatavis Brown, but the Chargers snagged him.) Summation: it’s quite difficult to find those guys.

    Jamal Adams is an example. Kam Chancellor is another. The Chargers have three: Kyzir White, the aforementioned Jatavis Brown, and the perfect SPUR: Derwin James.

    The Chargers showed what they can do with those SPUR players when they played the Ravens in the playoffs (although, White was on IR). The problem against the Taperiots was that theChargers (foolishly) stuck with this defense while Belichick went “heavy”.

    The Chargers also have very good CBs... and, as you stated in another thread, the secondary is only as good as it’s weakeat link. The WVU 3-3-5 requires any of the five DBs to play ANY of the five secondary spots on any given play. It allows them to switch coverages at the snap, in turn, confusing opposing QBs. It’s sort of like how Ryan Clark was able to cover “vacated areas” when Troy would freelance. What you want is four DBs who are able to “cover” for the one other DB who freelances. Who freelances?... it changes on every play.

    Now, imagine coordinated “freelancing”, where the SS covers the outside WR, and the QB thinks “mismatch”, but at the snap, the SS blitzes and the FS & CB are actually bracketing that WR... the QB has to now look for the open man, but the FS (and David Long) have made a bee-line towards the QB, giving the QB only 0.5 seconds to throw.

    That’s akin to a vape pen disguised as a cellphone, full of Walter White blue. As long as your defense doesn’t go all “Heisenberg” (“enlarged ego”) like the Chargers did against the Taperiots, you’ll be set for life. Oh... and don’t kill Gus Fring. Work with him; he’s a genius.
    Given that most of our DBs seem to have trouble playing even one position, it seems like the kind of thing you need to build from the ground up. Or at least we would. Not really designed for the "incredible raw talent, total meathead" type of player.

    I've always maintained that 75% of the reason Polamalu made the defense so successful circa 2004-2010 was not just his incredible playmaking ability (which was the other 25%) but the confusion he created by being able to line up anywhere and shift anywhere on the field, from the line of scrimmage to 20 yards deep, before you could even blink. You didn't know what the other guys were going to do either because of that. He was basically doing what you said for all 5 or 6 DBs and linebackers. We played plain-vanilla defense with Troy in there quite a few times (ALWAYS against the Patriots, of course), and it was not effective at all because it was missing the deception.

    Of course, you could do something similar with players less talented than Troy, but you need more than one or two.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Given that most of our DBs seem to have trouble playing even one position, it seems like the kind of thing you need to build from the ground up. Or at least we would. Not really designed for the "incredible raw talent, total meathead" type of player.

    I've always maintained that 75% of the reason Polamalu made the defense so successful circa 2004-2010 was not just his incredible playmaking ability (which was the other 25%) but the confusion he created by being able to line up anywhere and shift anywhere on the field, from the line of scrimmage to 20 yards deep, before you could even blink. You didn't know what the other guys were going to do either because of that. He was basically doing what you said for all 5 or 6 DBs and linebackers. We played plain-vanilla defense with Troy in there quite a few times (ALWAYS against the Patriots, of course), and it was not effective at all because it was missing the deception.

    Of course, you could do something similar with players less talented than Troy, but you need more than one or two.
    On a MNF game against the Broncos, when Peyton was amazing, Troy lined up as the SS, but switched to FS. Peyton audibled... and Troy countered by lining up at OLB. Peyton audibled a second time... and Troy moved to the other side of the LOS. Peyton (out of time) called a time out... looked at Troy, smiled, and nodded like “Good job... you got me.”

    So, absolutely, Troy’s second-biggest asset (besides freakish anticipation) was his ability to confuse offenses.

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