BTSC 2019 Post-Combine Big Board (Inside Linebackers)

[Shoes]

At this point it seems clear to everyone that ILB is going to be Pittsburgh's primary target in the draft, especially with the loss of L.J. Fort to free agency. The two Devins (White and Bush) have risen to be the targets of choice but they are not the only ones out there.
Please share your thoughts in the Comments. One thing the Combine proved is the serious gap in talent between the top few Mack ILB targets, the clear #3 in Mack Wilson, and then the rest of the crowd. There aren't a lot of names to look at even in the late-2nd and 3rd round areas. That situation would be a bit different if we did not apply a stern discount to the traditional thumping Buck ILB types, but it seems pretty obvious that the Steelers have no particular need in that area unless the player is a unique freak athlete like Josh Allen (who Ain't Gonna Happen).

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...t-combine-ilbs

[86WARD]

Cause LJ Fort was a huge loss?

[Mojouw]

Cause LJ Fort was a huge loss?

Apparently.

[teegre]

David Long, WV is gonna make some team very happy. If he was 2” taller and 10 lbs heavier, he’d be being discussed as a fringe R1 player. He was the Big 12 DPOY and second-team All American for a reason.

Tomlin has drafted several big SSs/small ILBs in the past five years. Plus, Tomlin always seems to add one Mountaineer to the roster. Long would easily be my choice.

[Shoes]

David Long, WV is gonna make some team very happy. If he was 2” taller and 10 lbs heavier, he’d be being discussed as a fringe R1 player. He was the Big 12 DPOY and second-team All American for a reason.

Tomlin has drafted several big SSs/small ILBs in the past five years. Plus, Tomlin always seems to add one Mountaineer to the roster. Long would easily be my choice.

I figured you'd sniff out a WV player.

[pczach]

David Long, WV is gonna make some team very happy. If he was 2” taller and 10 lbs heavier, he’d be being discussed as a fringe R1 player. He was the Big 12 DPOY and second-team All American for a reason.

Tomlin has drafted several big SSs/small ILBs in the past five years. Plus, Tomlin always seems to add one Mountaineer to the roster. Long would easily be my choice.

His size is a little bit of a concern, but he looks athletic. I've heard mixed reviews about him and claims of him being a liability in coverage. What have you seen in that regard teeg?

[hawaiiansteeler]

His size is a little bit of a concern, but he looks athletic. I've heard mixed reviews about him and claims of him being a liability in coverage. What have you seen in that regard teeg?

I think his best fit is as a WILL LB.

he also has no INTs in 33 games played, we need to find defensive playmakers.

[teegre]

I think his best fit is as a WILL LB.

he also has no INTs in 33 games played, we need to find defensive playmakers.

The 3-3-5 is predicated on the front six handling the run, and the back five creating havoc. Is the SPUR gonna play ILB or SS or FS or CB? Every DB can play every position... especially the SPUR. So, it makes opposing QBs have to “think”... which leads to turnovers.

Long’s responsibility was playing around/controlling the LOS. So, he wasn’t asked to “get” INTs; that was the job of the back five. (Does that make sense?)

[pczach]

I think his best fit is as a WILL LB.

he also has no INTs in 33 games played, we need to find defensive playmakers.

They definitely need to find players that can take the ball away.

Don't get me wrong, I'll take a guy that's great in coverage but if you can get your hands on a guy with good technique and coverage skills that also has instincts and ball skills....sign me up for that please.

[teegre]

His size is a little bit of a concern, but he looks athletic. I've heard mixed reviews about him and claims of him being a liability in coverage. What have you seen in that regard teeg?

He is best moving forward: blitzing, pass-rushing, run stuffing. If there’s a two-inch gap, he’s burst through it and get the ball carrier.

He’s good in straight line coverage (good speed), but a cut/change of direction can leave his man uncovered. It is why he played LB (instead of the SPUR position).

[pczach]

He is best moving forward: blitzing, pass-rushing, run stuffing. If there’s a two-inch gap, he’s burst through it and get the ball carrier.

He’s good in straight line coverage (good speed), but a cut/change of direction can leave his man uncovered. It is why he played LB (instead of the SPUR position).

Thanks for the breakdown teeg. I wanted your opinion because you see a lot of WVU games and really get to see the strengths and weaknesses.

I like his aggressiveness near the LOS, but don't see him showing much in coverage. Maybe they see him as a replacement for Williams or Bostic at a much cheaper price.

As you know, I had him in one of my mocks at Fanspeak.

[teegre]

Thanks for the breakdown teeg. I wanted your opinion because you see a lot of WVU games and really get to see the strengths and weaknesses.

I like his aggressiveness near the LOS, but don't see him showing much in coverage. Maybe they see him as a replacement for Williams or Bostic at a much cheaper price.

As you know, I had him in one of my mocks at Fanspeak.

The Chargers drafted Jatavis Brown, Kyzir White, and Derwin James. Those three are basically the same player (albeit, James is heads & shoulders better than the other two... but, Brown & White were much cheaper versions).

The Chargers run a base 4-3, but they get all three of those players on the field a lot (nickel, dime)... and, they switch to a 3-4 routinely. During pre-season, White played MLB/ILB... and all three were on the field together a ton. (Once White went on IR, they replaced him with another SS/LB.)

SUMMATION:
Even if they draft Bush, I could see a guy like Long brought in (R4) as the primary backup and/or to replace Burnett/Barron as the “dime ‘backer”.

[Born2Steel]

David Long, WV is gonna make some team very happy. If he was 2” taller and 10 lbs heavier, he’d be being discussed as a fringe R1 player. He was the Big 12 DPOY and second-team All American for a reason.

Tomlin has drafted several big SSs/small ILBs in the past five years. Plus, Tomlin always seems to add one Mountaineer to the roster. Long would easily be my choice.

I read a comparison that said David Long is a more durable version of Devin Bush at a later round discount.

[teegre]

I read a comparison that said David Long is a more durable version of Devin Bush at a later round discount.

Yea, they both even wear the same jersey colors.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

David Long, WV is gonna make some team very happy. If he was 2” taller and 10 lbs heavier, he’d be being discussed as a fringe R1 player. He was the Big 12 DPOY and second-team All American for a reason.

Tomlin has drafted several big SSs/small ILBs in the past five years. Plus, Tomlin always seems to add one Mountaineer to the roster. Long would easily be my choice.

So where do you think he ends up? round 3-5 ?

[teegre]

So where do you think he ends up? round 3-5 ?

The lack of ILBs in the NFL (and/or in this draft) will move him into very-early Day 3.

[steelreserve]

The 3-3-5 is predicated on the front six handling the run, and the back five creating havoc. Is the SPUR gonna play ILB or SS or FS or CB? Every DB can play every position... especially the SPUR. So, it makes opposing QBs have to “think”... which leads to turnovers.

Long’s responsibility was playing around/controlling the LOS. So, he wasn’t asked to “get” INTs; that was the job of the back five. (Does that make sense?)

Given the unique kinds of defensive players that come out of WV, and the numbers in which they seem to produce them in the scheme that they run - I would really like to see their coach hired as a defensive coordinator and try that kind of defense with all NFL players. It could be the next genius innovation, or it could be a belly flop, or it could be kind of inconclusive good-bad like the Chip Kelly offense.

Nonetheless, it couldn't be much worse than Butler's "96" defense (named after the year it was apparently invented) and more importantly, it seems like whoever is in charge there has a nose for identifying players, even ones who are not necessarily Tier 1 blue chip types, and developing them to play a role really well. Don't know if that's their head coach or the DC or both, but someone please take a closer look at that guy.

The lack of ILBs in the NFL (and/or in this draft) will move him into very-early Day 3.

This sounds like a much better idea than reaching for Mack with all his well-documented issues in R1, or trading half a draft to move up into the top 10 for one of the two guys everybody wants and fit our profile.

[teegre]

Given the unique kinds of defensive players that come out of WV, and the numbers in which they seem to produce them in the scheme that they run - I would really like to see their coach hired as a defensive coordinator and try that kind of defense with all NFL players. It could be the next genius innovation, or it could be a belly flop, or it could be kind of inconclusive good-bad like the Chip Kelly offense.

Nonetheless, it couldn't be much worse than Butler's "96" defense (named after the year it was apparently invented) and more importantly, it seems like whoever is in charge there has a nose for identifying players, even ones who are not necessarily Tier 1 blue chip types, and developing them to play a role really well. Don't know if that's their head coach or the DC or both, but someone please take a closer look at that guy.



This sounds like a much better idea than reaching for Mack with all his well-documented issues in R1, or trading half a draft to move up into the top 10 for one of the two guys everybody wants and fit our profile.

I think that people see the 3-3-5 as too gimmicky, but with so much done, nickel, & quarter defense being played, it’s no longer a gimmick.

I agree: draft the BPA at 20... and get a player who’s “better than Bostic” later in the draft.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Hey, I dont see Khalil Hodge anywhere in that article. Wasnt he supposed to be a kind of big deal at ILB?

[teegre]

Hey, I dont see Khalil Hodge anywhere in that article. Wasnt he supposed to be a kind of big deal at ILB?

If you’re referring to my question a few months ago, then yea... I guess. I asked if reaching for an ILB at 20 was better than drafting “name” in R2... and I used the name Hodge as an example. My bad... I guess.

Moreso, after his “name” was mentioned, I followed up by legitimately asking about Hodge. It was a question; I was not saying Hodge was a big deal (nor, saying Hodge was a legitimate candidate at 52). Again, my bad.

Carry on.

[Fire Goodell]

I saw a couple mock drafts that have us taking CB (Byron Murphy) or TE (Noah Fant) in rd. 1, and Germaine Pratt with our 3rd round pick (one had use using the Raiders' 3rd rounder, another one had us using our 3rd rounder). In any case if we don't land Bush, I'd be happy with Pratt with either 3rd round pick. I do like the speed that Bush and David Long have, but Pratt's also got good speed for the position, and at 240 lbs, won't have to beef up to step in and play. With that said though I'd be OK with any of the 3.

In a way, I kind of like the idea of getting Fant and a linebacker in the 3rd round. TE is now one of our most shallow positions, we have the injury prone McDonald, with grimble as the #2 After the Barron signing, I'm starting to think TE is more of a draft priority than ILB at the moment.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I saw a couple mock drafts that have us taking CB (Byron Murphy) or TE (Noah Fant) in rd. 1, and Germaine Pratt with our 3rd round pick (one had use using the Raiders' 3rd rounder, another one had us using our 3rd rounder). In any case if we don't land Bush, I'd be happy with Pratt with either 3rd round pick.

In a way, I kind of like the idea of getting Fant and a linebacker in the 3rd round. TE is now one of our most shallow positions, we have the injury prone McDonald, with grimble as the #2 After the Barron signing, I'm starting to think TE is more of a draft priority than ILB at the moment.

This is why I am very hopeful of this year's draft. Steelers can do any one of 3 things (Upgrade ILB spot, Upgrade TE spot, Draft CB as understudy to 30 year old Joe Haden) and it will benefit the team. No need to reach, just take BPA in one of those areas and you are good IMO.

I also think that if they cant find their ILB in round 1, then guys like Pratt and Terrill Hanks (both converted Safeties that are 6'2") on day 2 can be the kind of athletic ILB in coverage and weakside pursuit, which are good picks as well.

I also like the idea of taking Justin Hollins OLB in the 5th. That might be high, but he has some upside at 6'5" 250lbs and was MVP of the Shrine game. Ran a 4.5 and benched 25 reps with 36.5" vertical. I think he would replace Chickillo in 2020 and who knows if he develops into a starter.

[Born2Steel]

I saw a couple mock drafts that have us taking CB (Byron Murphy) or TE (Noah Fant) in rd. 1, and Germaine Pratt with our 3rd round pick (one had use using the Raiders' 3rd rounder, another one had us using our 3rd rounder). In any case if we don't land Bush, I'd be happy with Pratt with either 3rd round pick. I do like the speed that Bush and David Long have, but Pratt's also got good speed for the position, and at 240 lbs, won't have to beef up to step in and play. With that said though I'd be OK with any of the 3.

In a way, I kind of like the idea of getting Fant and a linebacker in the 3rd round. TE is now one of our most shallow positions, we have the injury prone McDonald, with grimble as the #2 After the Barron signing, I'm starting to think TE is more of a draft priority than ILB at the moment.

That’s intetesting. I dropped CB down the list because of the Nelson signing. I think he would start over whoever we drafted anyway. TE has been a top 5 need. With JJ leaving a stable of McDonald, Grimble, Hodges, and McGee, I would put TE at 2 behind ILB. The signings of Moncreif and Rogers moves WR behind TE as well. This is becoming a very interesting draft season indeed.

[Leopardo]

Hi, first time I post here but I'm following this forum for years now as it provides good discussions with often well-reasoned arguments.

The reason I decided to post now is that by everything I read our main target in the first round of this draft supposedly is Devin Bush. He's a fast riser on many draft boards and constantly is going at #20 (our pick) or higher in mock drafts. Since there's a good chance we draft him at 20 or even trade up for him, I've watched a lot of tape of him. Especially because many draftnicks and almost every Steelers fan (not only on this board) is high on him and I am not. I will explain why.

When I first watched his tape, I already had a meh feeling. Then I watched one of Michigan's games entirely and I simply barely noticed him. As teegre called it in the Mack Wilson topic "the blink approach". Then I watched him more closely, focusing only on him during games. And there is where things were even getting worse for me. I didn't see him around the ball ever except when he was schemed into it. He had terrible instincts and was constantly reacting too late to plays. I saw a player who was awful in coverage and got lost in zones way too easy. That was the tape so I thought I must have watched his worst games and he will have great stats since everyone likes him so much. But that wasn't the case as his production is even worse...

His stats: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb...in-bush-2.html

I won't focus on his first year since he barely played. So in 25 games he has 85 solo tackles (less than 3.5/game), 76 assisted (which is good), 18.5 tackles for loss and 10 sacks (mediocre at best), 1 interception (meh) and 0 FF and 0 fumble recoveries which is really astonishing. The guy has only 1 turnover in his entire college career and has 0 forced fumbles and recoveries which kind of proves my point that he's never around the ball. I clearly miss the splash plays. Another fact that I don't like is that his production didn't increase in his third season compared to the second, so there's a lack of progress. Personally, I would put a 3rd round grade on him and I have real concerns about him if he ever will pan out in the NFL.

Compared to Shazier (both played in the Big Ten): https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb...shazier-1.html

I like to compare them because they played in the same conference and they have more or less the same physical skill set (Shazier is taller though). Shazier's stats are way up in every aspect of the game and he was also making progress every year. I remember that Shazier was often overrunning plays, but his instincts were good. Bush's reactions are just too slow for my liking, it seems that he can't diagnose plays.

So my question to you guys is: What am I missing? And what makes you think that he can produce in the NFL, while he even couldn't in college? I hope you can convince me that he's a really good player.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I like to compare them because they played in the same conference and they have more or less the same physical skill set (Shazier is taller though). Shazier's stats are way up in every aspect of the game and he was also making progress every year. I remember that Shazier was often overrunning plays, but his instincts were good. Bush's reactions are just too slow for my liking, it seems that he can't diagnose plays.

So my question to you guys is: What am I missing? And what makes you think that he can produce in the NFL, while he even couldn't in college? I hope you can convince me that he's a really good player.

First, its difficult to compare STATS from 2 different players, in 2 different defenses, some 4-5 years apart. Bush is part of such a talented defense, that often guys up front on the D line are making tackles before the ball gets to 2nd level....or teams are throwing passes downfield to challenge the CB's. You may think that Bush is slow to react in pass plays on film, but he is just playing zone in the middle of the field and spying the QB's a lot. Here is my breakdown

vs. Run

Positives-Bush rarely takes a false step and is always moving forward on runs between the tackles. Likewise, he has a quick read step and has speed to get to the edge on off tackle, pitches or outside zone runs. Takes good angles, uses hands to shed blockers on the way to the football and sure tackler.
Negatives- can get caught up in blocks between the tackles, where the Interior linemen are outweighing him and he doesn't have long arms to shiver and get off them as well as bigger LB.

vs. Pass
-Positives- he is very fast and fluid athlete. Knows his responsibility and quickly finds his man in man coverage and runs with them, so most QB's didn't throw at his receiver when covered so well. In zone, he mostly had the middle zone and he stepped to crossing routes well, although a lot of teams I saw on tape didn't run a lot of crossing routes inside, so he is just standing and reading QB and spying. He reacts well to WR screens and gets to the edge quickly.
-Negatives- lacks height and arm length, so taller TE's can reach over him to catch passes. Likes contact, so can get a bit grabby or aggressive in rerouting the TE and he stops his feet when hitting them. Lack of height may not take away zone passing lanes well, but Michigan played a lot of man coverage in their secondary, so wasn't a responsibility a lot.

Summary- Bush is a technician at ILB, as he takes decisive read steps forward at every snap, quickly finds the football and keeps his feet moving towards it. He covers backs and TE's in man very well, but often can give away size to them. He is quick and fast to the edges, quick to get to a gap between the tackles, but not a big thumper in the middle that will get off blocks of 300lb OG's. Good blitzer, plays with an edge and was a leader.

My best pro comparison is Jonathan Vilma and I still think the 5'11" height, shorter arms will push him towards the 15-25 range. But its possible that some teams will view him as a shorter Bobby Wagner and he could go earlier.

[Leopardo]

First, its difficult to compare STATS from 2 different players, in 2 different defenses, some 4-5 years apart. Bush is part of such a talented defense, that often guys up front on the D line are making tackles before the ball gets to 2nd level....or teams are throwing passes downfield to challenge the CB's. You may think that Bush is slow to react in pass plays on film, but he is just playing zone in the middle of the field and spying the QB's a lot. Here is my breakdown

vs. Run

Positives-Bush rarely takes a false step and is always moving forward on runs between the tackles. Likewise, he has a quick read step and has speed to get to the edge on off tackle, pitches or outside zone runs. Takes good angles, uses hands to shed blockers on the way to the football and sure tackler.
Negatives- can get caught up in blocks between the tackles, where the Interior linemen are outweighing him and he doesn't have long arms to shiver and get off them as well as bigger LB.

vs. Pass
-Positives- he is very fast and fluid athlete. Knows his responsibility and quickly finds his man in man coverage and runs with them, so most QB's didn't throw at his receiver when covered so well. In zone, he mostly had the middle zone and he stepped to crossing routes well, although a lot of teams I saw on tape didn't run a lot of crossing routes inside, so he is just standing and reading QB and spying. He reacts well to WR screens and gets to the edge quickly.
-Negatives- lacks height and arm length, so taller TE's can reach over him to catch passes. Likes contact, so can get a bit grabby or aggressive in rerouting the TE and he stops his feet when hitting them. Lack of height may not take away zone passing lanes well, but Michigan played a lot of man coverage in their secondary, so wasn't a responsibility a lot.

Summary- Bush is a technician at ILB, as he takes decisive read steps forward at every snap, quickly finds the football and keeps his feet moving towards it. He covers backs and TE's in man very well, but often can give away size to them. He is quick and fast to the edges, quick to get to a gap between the tackles, but not a big thumper in the middle that will get off blocks of 300lb OG's. Good blitzer, plays with an edge and was a leader.

My best pro comparison is Jonathan Vilma and I still think the 5'11" height, shorter arms will push him towards the 15-25 range. But its possible that some teams will view him as a shorter Bobby Wagner and he could go earlier.

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. I will give him another chance in a week or so as I feel I'm too biased right now. Sometimes you have your draft favorites or in this case the opposite for me and then it's hard to change an opinion.