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Thread: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    The offense could be better. BR won't have to force passes to Brown to keep him from crying.
    Hater = Realist

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    I don’t know why we automatically move JuJu outside. He has dominated from the slot in a Hines Ward kind of way. I like him there and I’m not sure moving him helps us more.
    Well... you need 2 WR's and a slot. Looking at the players on the roster, JuJu's our best WR and our best slot, but he can't play both at once. Switzer is a better slot than anyone not named JuJu is a deep threat, so that's the most effective distribution. It's not about what he's good at, it's about what the people behind him are good at.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Well... you need 2 WR's and a slot. Looking at the players on the roster, JuJu's our best WR and our best slot, but he can't play both at once. Switzer is a better slot than anyone not named JuJu is a deep threat, so that's the most effective distribution. It's not about what he's good at, it's about what the people behind him are good at.
    No, INCORRECT. It most definitely should be about what the player does best. That's how you build a football team.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    No, INCORRECT. It most definitely should be about what the player does best. That's how you build a football team.
    Fair enough. Neither of us are actually making any decisions that affect the team, so we can afford to disagree on this. So JuJu is in the slot. Who are the WRs?
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Fair enough. Neither of us are actually making any decisions that affect the team, so we can afford to disagree on this. So JuJu is in the slot. Who are the WRs?
    Exactly. AB leaving means new faces. Are there any from the FA pool that would fill that role?(Golden Tate maybe) I don't think that will be the move, but maybe. The draft seems the most logical approach to getting another WR. Right now we ONLY have AB, JuJu, Wash, and Switzer under contract. Just from that standpoint we know WR moves are going to be made. Tevin Jones and Griffey made the PS. Both did well in preseason last year so one or both of them could be on the 53. Hunter and DHB are very likely gone this offseason, and Rogers 'should' get a new deal, IMO. But do we bank on PS guys and backups to fill out our WR corps? There is still much to talk about, debate, and see who gets signed/released this offseason. My only argument is it's not a 'just move guys to different positions and watch them be just as good' world. You find what a player does well and you have him do that. JuJu may be the best outside WR on this team once AB is gone but that doesn't necessarily mean he's as good there as he is from the slot. Rather than down-grade at the outside AND slot positions, I would suggest getting another WR that excels outside and be good at both positions still.

    If we made zero moves at WR this offseason(other than AB) we would have to move JuJu outside, yes. Wash would play outside, and Switzer would be the slot guy. That is correct. In February I'm hoping we do more than that. Trey Griffey is 6'3" and Tevin Jones is 6'2", they got the height to play outside as well. I don't think you tear down something good and make it back into something not quite as good as the first option.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    As long as we get rid of DHB and Hunter I can live with whatever 5 we keep.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Ah. Well, that's probably at the center of our disagreement: I'm talking about what I imagine they will do, and you're talking about what you hope they will do. They may very well bring somebody in, but then again with the lack of skill players on defense, they may not. *shrug*
    If they do bring in a new WR, then yeah, I'd expect JuJu to be the slot.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Exactly. AB leaving means new faces. Are there any from the FA pool that would fill that role? I don't think that will be the move, but maybe. The draft seems the most logical approach to getting another WR. Right now we ONLY have AB, JuJu, Wash, and Switzer under contract. Just from that standpoint we know WR moves are going to be made. Tevin Jones and Griffey made the PS. Both did well in preseason last year so one or both of them could be on the 53. Hunter and DHB are very likely gone this offseason, and Rogers 'should' get a new deal, IMO. But do we bank on PS guys and backups to fill out our WR corps? There is still much to talk about, debate, and see who gets signed/released this offseason. My only argument is it's not a 'just move guys to different positions and watch them be just as good' world. You find what a player does well and you have him do that. JuJu may be the best outside WR on this team once AB is gone but that doesn't necessarily mean he's as good there as he is from the slot. Rather than down-grade at the outside AND slot positions, I would suggest getting another WR that excels outside and be good at both positions still.

    If we made zero moves at WR this offseason(other than AB) we would have to move JuJu outside, yes. Wash would play outside, and Switzer would be the slot guy. That is correct. In February I'm hoping we do more than that. Trey Griffey is 6'3" and Tevin Jones is 6'2", they got the height to play outside as well. I don't think you tear down something good and make it back into something not quite as good as the first option.
    Yeah. I am not certain Jujubee just slips so easily into that #1 WR role. I'm not sure he is really that guy. I think he is better suited to moving around the formation playing the different WR roles and being a swiss army knife for the offense than just running out of the "X" spot and calling it a day. If Juju takes over AB's role he has to demonstrate a consistent ability to work from on the line of scrimmage with less motion and to beat a jam from the jump. He also has to demonstrate a strong capability of working well pinned against the sideline. Those are two of AB's primary things that he does at a ridiculous level. Those two skills tilt the field towards the offense's favor and allow the other WRs far more lattitude in how they conduct their responsibilities.

    Switzer is a hardworking guy who is tough as nails, but he is not changing a single defensive coverage based on where he lines up. Washington's next big catch will be his first and it remains to be seen if he can make plays consistently in the NFL. Certainly no demonstrated need for a defense to roll coverages his way. Eli Rogers appears to be far and away the best option at slot WR the team has (other than Juju).

    If no additions to the roster are made and the team continues to be a 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB offense, Juju will see double teams all day every day until and unless one of these other "no name" guys steps up and starts making defenses pay like Bryant did that one year and Juju did last year.

    If no additions are made to the pass catching corps and/or Washington fails to catch like 75+, the offense will struggle. Juju will be doubled. Conner will see loaded boxes. Teams will roll safeties down on the TEs and against the run because they won't be scared of anyone taking them deep. Etc. Etc. As I see it, if AB leaves the key is NOT Juju but Washington and ????. That question mark can either be Eli Rogers elevating into a greatly expanded role or another player. I suspect they draft at least one WR early and I would hit the FA market looking for "bargains". Someone I would try and bring in would be along the lines of a Marcell Ateman (young, big, fastish, the kinda guy that this team has developed before), another waaaay outside roll of the dice is Corey Coleman. I know his attitude looks poor and his performance is even worse, but bring the kid in for a meeting and see what there is to see. He certainly has all the physical tools.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    I think one thing has been demonstrated by the Steelers FO, they don't stand pat at WR even when all the fans think they wasted a pick (e.g., Juju, JW). Why would anyone think they'll stand pat? They'll go WR early even if AB is back in the fold.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I think one thing has been demonstrated by the Steelers FO, they don't stand pat at WR even when all the fans think they wasted a pick (e.g., Juju, JW). Why would anyone think they'll stand pat? They'll go WR early even if AB is back in the fold.
    100%

    There is a stat that the Steelers have drafted at least one WR in every one of Tomlin’s drafts except for one. (I’m too lazy right now to look it up.)

    It’s similar to how Cowher used to draft an OLB every single draft, despite already have solid depth at that position. (One season, he kept six OLBs on the roster.)

    SUMMATION:
    It’s the 80/20 principle: if you’re good at something, do that thing... a lot!!!

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    If I am imagining that AB is not on the Steelers next season then I must agree with Mojo. Washington will need to be the player that makes the next big leap in production. BUT, how do you head into next season just expecting that big leap to happen? I think we already know what we have in Eli should he be re-signed. And Switzer has his niche. I also agree with DS in that it is time to let go of DHB and Hunter.

    AB should bring something in trade. We all seem to be imagining that something to be a defensive star. But what if it is ONLY draft picks? I imagine that would mean the Steelers would also keep the 20th pick and just a straight trade of AB(AB and our 3rd) for picks(a 1st and a 2nd). Since this is an offense thread what if the AB trade becomes a rookie TE AND a rookie WR? Imagine taking Fant/Hockenson in the 1st rd, and getting one of the many tall, fast WRs of this draft in the 2nd? Pick 20 is still a BPA at ILB or CB. Now we have replaced AB with 2 play makers, kept JuJu where he excels, and still have a pick at #52 coming up.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    If I am imagining that AB is not on the Steelers next season then I must agree with Mojo. Washington will need to be the player that makes the next big leap in production. BUT, how do you head into next season just expecting that big leap to happen? I think we already know what we have in Eli should he be re-signed. And Switzer has his niche. I also agree with DS in that it is time to let go of DHB and Hunter.

    AB should bring something in trade. We all seem to be imagining that something to be a defensive star. But what if it is ONLY draft picks? I imagine that would mean the Steelers would also keep the 20th pick and just a straight trade of AB(AB and our 3rd) for picks(a 1st and a 2nd). Since this is an offense thread what if the AB trade becomes a rookie TE AND a rookie WR? Imagine taking Fant/Hockenson in the 1st rd, and getting one of the many tall, fast WRs of this draft in the 2nd? Pick 20 is still a BPA at ILB or CB. Now we have replaced AB with 2 play makers, kept JuJu where he excels, and still have a pick at #52 coming up.
    That is the best case scenario. The problems are you need to hit on all of those picks AND need them to impact in their rookie year (assuming we are still operating on the seemingly universal SB appearance or failure standard that Steelers fans use). If we even grant that hitting on those picks is something that can be reasonably expected, I do not think we can expect a rookie TE and WR to be significant component of the offense. Washington is case in point for the WR position. And I can not think of many rookie TEs who come in and impact in the NFL right away. There are a few, but the vast majority require 1-2 years to adjust.

    In my opinion, if you are using high draft picks to reload the offense, that is for 2020 and beyond. If you are concerned about replacing AB's production/role in 2019 that is going to be done in an impactful way through the FA market or guys already on the roster significantly elevating their game. Specifically, Washington, McDonald, and Rogers would have to ALL have career years for the offense to not miss a beat while running the same or similar scheme.

    And that is the final option, redesign the offense a bit and scheme your way around AB not being on the roster. But since "This" (meaning the current system) is the offense Ben wants and he has basically resisted learning new things (Fichtner talked extensively about this since his hire), I have very little confidence that scheme will be a big part of the answer.

    Bottom line: The 2019 offense will struggle and look disjointed at times. The 2020+ offense could be a reloaded weapons rich unit.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    That is the best case scenario. The problems are you need to hit on all of those picks AND need them to impact in their rookie year (assuming we are still operating on the seemingly universal SB appearance or failure standard that Steelers fans use). If we even grant that hitting on those picks is something that can be reasonably expected, I do not think we can expect a rookie TE and WR to be significant component of the offense. Washington is case in point for the WR position. And I can not think of many rookie TEs who come in and impact in the NFL right away. There are a few, but the vast majority require 1-2 years to adjust.

    In my opinion, if you are using high draft picks to reload the offense, that is for 2020 and beyond. If you are concerned about replacing AB's production/role in 2019 that is going to be done in an impactful way through the FA market or guys already on the roster significantly elevating their game. Specifically, Washington, McDonald, and Rogers would have to ALL have career years for the offense to not miss a beat while running the same or similar scheme.

    And that is the final option, redesign the offense a bit and scheme your way around AB not being on the roster. But since "This" (meaning the current system) is the offense Ben wants and he has basically resisted learning new things (Fichtner talked extensively about this since his hire), I have very little confidence that scheme will be a big part of the answer.

    Bottom line: The 2019 offense will struggle and look disjointed at times. The 2020+ offense could be a reloaded weapons rich unit.
    You are right about the rookie impact. Ben doesn't usually trust rookies at all. If only Ben could play with them in the preseason too. Maybe we package AB AND Ben for Jalen Ramsey and draft picks. Just go full on 'B' KILLER. It will be a Mason Rudolph led offense featuring Conner and Samuels, with JuJu, Switzer, McDonald, and his favorite guy Wash.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    You are right about the rookie impact. Ben doesn't usually trust rookies at all. If only Ben could play with them in the preseason too. Maybe we package AB AND Ben for Jalen Ramsey and draft picks. Just go full on 'B' KILLER. It will be a Mason Rudolph led offense featuring Conner and Samuels, with JuJu, Switzer, McDonald, and his favorite guy Wash.
    That would be my move back when I played video game franchise mode! Every three years trade everyone older than 28 for picks and emerging players.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    You are right about the rookie impact. Ben doesn't usually trust rookies at all. If only Ben could play with them in the preseason too. Maybe we package AB AND Ben for Jalen Ramsey and draft picks. Just go full on 'B' KILLER. It will be a Mason Rudolph led offense featuring Conner and Samuels, with JuJu, Switzer, McDonald, and his favorite guy Wash.


    Well, I hope I see TJ Hockenson name in there after the draft.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    3 ways the Steelers can adjust to life after Antonio Brown

    By: Curt Popejoy

    Involving the tight ends

    What we are seeing across the league is an uptick in tight ends involved in the passing game. The right tight end is too big for defensive backs and too fast for linebackers. The Steelers have Jesse James and Vance McDonald, both of whom are underrated receivers. It is past due for Pittsburgh to adjust their offensive scheme to get both of these guys more involved as receivers.

    to read rest of article:

    https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/20..._campaign=rail

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    3 ways the Steelers can adjust to life after Antonio Brown

    By: Curt Popejoy

    Involving the tight ends

    What we are seeing across the league is an uptick in tight ends involved in the passing game. The right tight end is too big for defensive backs and too fast for linebackers. The Steelers have Jesse James and Vance McDonald, both of whom are underrated receivers. It is past due for Pittsburgh to adjust their offensive scheme to get both of these guys more involved as receivers.

    to read rest of article:

    https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/20..._campaign=rail


    I've said it a couple times now. If AB isn't on the roster, don't be surprised if they go TE early. A dynamic pass catching TE that can block will improve the team greatly. It will improve the passing game, but more importantly, it will assist the running game. Being able to have multiple TEs on the field that can block, consistently beat coverage, and catch is a nightmare for defenses.

    It would also really allow the team to focus more on the running game and play action. Both would really help this offense and help the quarterback. It could fundamentally change the focus of the offense, and may even make it more efficient if they are able to see improvement from Washington, and they acquire or draft another WR that makes an impact. The additional benefit of running the ball more successfully is that it will help the defense by keeping them off the field.

    Nobody should be surprised if they go in that direction with one of the first couple picks in this draft whether AB is here or not.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    I've said it a couple times now. If AB isn't on the roster, don't be surprised if they go TE early. A dynamic pass catching TE that can block will improve the team greatly. It will improve the passing game, but more importantly, it will assist the running game. Being able to have multiple TEs on the field that can block, consistently beat coverage, and catch is a nightmare for defenses.

    It would also really allow the team to focus more on the running game and play action. Both would really help this offense and help the quarterback. It could fundamentally change the focus of the offense, and may even make it more efficient if they are able to see improvement from Washington, and they acquire or draft another WR that makes an impact. The additional benefit of running the ball more successfully is that it will help the defense by keeping them off the field.

    Nobody should be surprised if they go in that direction with one of the first couple picks in this draft whether AB is here or not.
    I'm actually ok with this too. I still think a WR gets drafted and my thinking with that is if you're going WR go get one of the "wow" guys. Using 2TEs is not new to the Steelers offense either. Just having them both as threats to either block or run out for a pass would be new. A 3 TE rotation of McDonald, James, and Hockenson/Fant/Irv Smith would be awesome. This offensive base formation forces JuJu outside which brings up a separate question, and Wash on the other outside is still an unanswered question as well. I think moving the offense in this direction forces not re-signing Eli with JuJu/Switzer already better than or equal to as slot receivers when going 3/4 wide. Honestly if the Steelers are going to change offensive philosophy due to AB leaving I'm all for not re-signing Eli, DHB, or Hunter and bring up Jones and Griffey from the PS and go with a WR corps of JuJu, Switzer, Wash, Jones, Griffey, and rookie. Going run first with 2 dynamic TEs forcing coverage in the middle and safeties playing close, let the young guys learn or burn on the outside. Ben is the perfect QB to teach them.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Colbert Confirms Team’s Faith In WR Washington Following Disappointing Rookie Season

    By Dave BryanPosted on February 27, 2019

    The Pittsburgh Steelers spent a second-round draft pick last year on wide receiver James Washington and the Oklahoma State product went on to have a very disappointing rookie season as he only caught 16 passes for 217 yards and a touchdown and was even inactive for two of the team’s 16 regular season games. With the start of the 2019 NFL league year now on the immediate horizon, Steelers general manager Kevin Colbert was asked Wednesday during his annual scouting combine press conference in Indianapolis to give his impression on Washington’s 2018 rookie season.

    “James had a rough start,” Colbert said. “I mean, it was disappointing because he was dropping balls that he didn’t drop in college. James had I believe 35 touchdowns at Oklahoma State when he played with Mason Rudolph and was a very productive player, but he also went through an adjustment and learning of the NFL game and he fought through it week after week. He had the big drop at Denver, where he probably should have just run through the ball. He probably would have scored. But his confidence after that game grew to where he was a contributor down the stretch. So, not uncommon for rookie players to go through that, but we had no question about James Washington’s ability to catch the football and now he’s starting to show that.”

    to read rest of article:

    https://steelersdepot.com/2019/02/co...rookie-season/

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Thoughts on drafting a receiver (say Ridley) and then signing or trading a high pick for a veteran guy like DeSean Jackson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Thoughts on drafting a receiver (say Ridley) and then signing or trading a high pick for a veteran guy like DeSean Jackson?


    Of course it depends on what happens with AB, but I like Ridley.

    Desean Jackson is a hard no for me. He's older now and I've hated his attitude and effort for his entire career.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    Of course it depends on what happens with AB, but I like Ridley.

    Desean Jackson is a hard no for me. He's older now and I've hated his attitude and effort for his entire career.
    I was thinking though, the thing about Jackson is he's never had a really good QB throwing him the ball. He had McNabb and then a really good year when Foles was on fire in Philadelphia during the first tour. Other than that, he wasn't with a "mature adult" like Ben. I'm not sure what his contract is for 2019, but if it wasn't bad, I think there would be worse options out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    I'm liking Miles Boykin out of Notre Dame - productive player. Today at 6'4" 220 he runs a 4.42 and jumps 43.5". He doesn't have a high round grade so maybe he can be picked up in R3-4...

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Metcalf rising up the charts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    The Steelers are meeting with every receiver at The Combine... and, I mean EVERY receiver.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    The Steelers are meeting with every receiver at The Combine... and, I mean EVERY receiver.
    Who's coming to dinner?

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Who's coming to dinner?
    So far...

    Deebo Samuel

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I'm liking Miles Boykin out of Notre Dame - productive player. Today at 6'4" 220 he runs a 4.42 and jumps 43.5". He doesn't have a high round grade so maybe he can be picked up in R3-4...
    Have you seen the video of his teammates going apesh!t while watching him run the 40? Yeah, it is the type of reaction the AB does not currently receive.

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Metcalf rising up the charts?
    To the AFC North, but not the Steelers.

  30. #60
    Senior Member Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute"> Born2Steel's Avatar

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    Re: Reimagining Steelers' offense without Antonio Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoes View Post
    To the AFC North, but not the Steelers.
    I hope he doesn't go to the Ravens or Browns, but you are probably correct.

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