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Thread: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...-carson-wentz/

    It has everything...arrogance...poor leadership...a divided locker room...a favorite receiver that gets the ball forced his way...quotes from anonymous sources...


    All it is missing is a massive contract holdout and arguments over playing time.

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    I say trade Carson keep Foles. Still not anywhere near the drama as another PA team

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    No way you can trade Wentz and go with Foles after his performance in the Saints game. The Eagles would've easily won that game if Foles had the arm and backbone to stick the ball into tight windows. He didn't challenge the Saints defense on hardly any contested throws. Wentz is an MVP caliber QB. Foles is Andy Dalton at best.

    I bet all the "sources" and "quotes" are from guys who had no role in the offense under Wentz and then saw their usage increase under Foles.

    Like so many unsourced and unnamed reports, portions are likely totally correct and portions are likely biased and almost none of it matters.

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Straw Man.......

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    No way you can trade Wentz and go with Foles after his performance in the Saints game. The Eagles would've easily won that game if Foles had the arm and backbone to stick the ball into tight windows. He didn't challenge the Saints defense on hardly any contested throws. Wentz is an MVP caliber QB. Foles is Andy Dalton at best.

    I bet all the "sources" and "quotes" are from guys who had no role in the offense under Wentz and then saw their usage increase under Foles.

    Like so many unsourced and unnamed reports, portions are likely totally correct and portions are likely biased and almost none of it matters.
    That and the writer is no Wentz fan - this was from him, not a "source"

    His aw-shucks, overgrown-Opie-from-Mayberry routine plays well with the local and national media.

    https://www.phillyvoice.com/carson-w...t-team-player/

    Local Pittsburgh writers need to raise their game to compete with this sort of hatchet job from a member of the Philly media

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Wentz is the future of the Eagles. Players need to get on board with that and adjust. Foles is the perfect backup for that team. But that is where it ends.

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    That and the writer is no Wentz fan - this was from him, not a "source"

    His aw-shucks, overgrown-Opie-from-Mayberry routine plays well with the local and national media.

    https://www.phillyvoice.com/carson-w...t-team-player/

    Local Pittsburgh writers need to raise their game to compete with this sort of hatchet job from a member of the Philly media
    Basically reads like what one would expect. All offensive players want the ball all the time. Give them an opportunity to talk about how they are not getting the ball enough and they will talk your ear off.

    The astounding thing is that databases life Pro Football Reference are freely available over the internet and they document some of what the reporter is talking about. You can look at Jeffery's, Ertz's, Agholor's, and Tate's targets. You can look at air yards per attempt between Wentz and Foles. You can look at rushes per game, etc. You can see that some of what is claimed in the article is not really true and other things are.

    But why do all that when you can just put out a hit?

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    ... and yet somehow, they made the playoffs while we didn't.

    Even more amazingly, the team actually improved after moving on from "pretty good" Andy Reid. Then won a championship after firing that coach and replacing him with someone who was NOT Bill Belichick or one of 2-3 other "acceptable" candidates who already had a long history of NFL head coaching success. And after making bold, often costly moves for key players.

    I thought any one of those events was supposed to lead to an inevitable franchise-ending meltdown from which they could never recover, and they would be doomed to be the Browns for 50 years.

    Everyone knows there is only ONE way to do things, and that is to never fire the coach, never make trades, always stand pat in the draft, and understand that no outside player or coach will ever be available, and if one is, he won't help you.

    Yet the Eagles are not the Browns? What is this sorcery?
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    The first step of the 12-step is to admit that YOU have a problem.... not that everyone else has a problem. Until the Steelers organization takes this toxic locker room seriously, they'll keep enabling these divas.

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    One could argue that they fired Andy Reid, did some weird Chip Kelly thing, and then admitted that was all a mistake by hiring the closing thing to Andy Reid they could find and restoring control to the GM, not the head coach.

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Except after 3 years Pederson has a super bowl ring and Reid, after 40 years, has zero - the same number he'll have when he retires.

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    Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Can’t fire Pederson...he hasn’t had enough “drama”. He’s got a ways to go to get to the Culture that Tomlin has created...lol.

    Holmes
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    Talk about the “Killer Bs”...

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    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Except after 3 years Pederson has a super bowl ring and Reid, after 40 years, has zero - the same number he'll have when he retires.
    Doug Pederson has won as many conference championship games as Andy Reid......in 5 fewer appearances

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    One could argue that they fired Andy Reid, did some weird Chip Kelly thing, and then admitted that was all a mistake by hiring the closing thing to Andy Reid they could find and restoring control to the GM, not the head coach.
    Meanwhile, doing things the "right" way, Reid is still the coach, they never drafted Wentz, Ertz, or any of their WRs, and in 2017 they stumbled into the playoffs with the #4 seed and lost the divisional game on the road.

    If there is one lesson I think the Eagles situation showed, it's that stability for stability's sake is not guaranteed to be the path to success; change is not automatically a recipe for disaster, even if it seems like the initial results are not good, all kinds of unexpected things can happen; and even if you end up with someome similar to who you had before, if he does one or two things differently, it can make a huge difference.

    These guys were in a stable but "pretty good" place several years ago and generally considered a well-run team, but I don't think anyone thought they were more than an outside threat to win anything. Very similar to where the Steelers are now.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    ... and yet somehow, they made the playoffs while we didn't.
    With an even worse record.

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Meanwhile, doing things the "right" way, Reid is still the coach, they never drafted Wentz, Ertz, or any of their WRs, and in 2017 they stumbled into the playoffs with the #4 seed and lost the divisional game on the road.

    If there is one lesson I think the Eagles situation showed, it's that stability for stability's sake is not guaranteed to be the path to success; change is not automatically a recipe for disaster, even if it seems like the initial results are not good, all kinds of unexpected things can happen; and even if you end up with someome similar to who you had before, if he does one or two things differently, it can make a huge difference.

    These guys were in a stable but "pretty good" place several years ago and generally considered a well-run team, but I don't think anyone thought they were more than an outside threat to win anything. Very similar to where the Steelers are now.
    I don't think it is that cut and dry. Roseman only wasn't controlling the roster during the Chip Kelly years (2013-15). Ertz, Agholor, and Hicks are the biggest contributors acquired in those drafts. Other than that from basically 2010-2013 it was Reid and Roseman and from 2016-now it is Roseman with Andy Reid Lite at the controls.

    Who knows...maybe if Reid isn't ushered out of Philly he never retools his offense into what it is now and Nagy, Pederson, Reich, Difilipo, etc are all toiling in obscurity somewhere.

    But the Eagles made a change to make a change from Andy Reid to Chip Kelly. Kelly crated and then they hired Andy Reid 2.0 and brought back the guy who helped build the Andy Reid 1.0 rosters.

    Detroit moved on from Caldwell to Patricia to spark a 9-10 win team over the hump. Patricia imploded.

    Chargers moved on from Schottenheimer because he could never get over the hump. And it is unclear after Turner, McCoy, and Lynn if they are anywhere besides where they started from.

    My point is that just as much as a new coach, staff, and/or scheme can invigorate a franchise and provide a positive new direction, it can (and has) back-fire in spectacular fashion.

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I don't think it is that cut and dry. Roseman only wasn't controlling the roster during the Chip Kelly years (2013-15). Ertz, Agholor, and Hicks are the biggest contributors acquired in those drafts. Other than that from basically 2010-2013 it was Reid and Roseman and from 2016-now it is Roseman with Andy Reid Lite at the controls.

    Who knows...maybe if Reid isn't ushered out of Philly he never retools his offense into what it is now and Nagy, Pederson, Reich, Difilipo, etc are all toiling in obscurity somewhere.

    But the Eagles made a change to make a change from Andy Reid to Chip Kelly. Kelly crated and then they hired Andy Reid 2.0 and brought back the guy who helped build the Andy Reid 1.0 rosters.

    Detroit moved on from Caldwell to Patricia to spark a 9-10 win team over the hump. Patricia imploded.

    Chargers moved on from Schottenheimer because he could never get over the hump. And it is unclear after Turner, McCoy, and Lynn if they are anywhere besides where they started from.

    My point is that just as much as a new coach, staff, and/or scheme can invigorate a franchise and provide a positive new direction, it can (and has) back-fire in spectacular fashion.
    Well yeah, and my point was that a new coach / staff / scheme is not always a hotheaded knee-jerk reaction either. Sometimes it can be just what you needed. Sometimes it will work against you. Other times it's more of the same.

    I know I'm probably not considered a glass-half-full kind of guy by many around here, but it is astounding role reversal to me, seeing how many people are automatically against a coaching move because the unknown must be worse.

    The Eagles don't prove that moving on from Tomlin is or is not the right decision ... but they do provide a great example that it is not the guaranteed disaster that some people predict. And not necessarily for the reasons that any of us think, either.

    For what it's worth, it is pretty clear by now that Tomlin is not going to be let go this offseason unless he's caught with a quarter-ton of cocaine in his speedboat, and maybe not even then - so this is all a theoretical exercise anyway.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Well yeah, and my point was that a new coach / staff / scheme is not always a hotheaded knee-jerk reaction either. Sometimes it can be just what you needed. Sometimes it will work against you. Other times it's more of the same.

    I know I'm probably not considered a glass-half-full kind of guy by many around here, but it is astounding role reversal to me, seeing how many people are automatically against a coaching move because the unknown must be worse.

    The Eagles don't prove that moving on from Tomlin is or is not the right decision ... but they do provide a great example that it is not the guaranteed disaster that some people predict. And not necessarily for the reasons that any of us think, either.

    For what it's worth, it is pretty clear by now that Tomlin is not going to be let go this offseason unless he's caught with a quarter-ton of cocaine in his speedboat, and maybe not even then - so this is all a theoretical exercise anyway.
    You're right. For me, if I see something different from the defense, not necessarily better but a move towards a different plan, then I'm okay with the seemingly low level changes that got made.

    I think that a better plan for 5 reciever sets, far less Lbers on guys they can't hope to cover, generating turnovers, and far more use of rotational players if/when starters struggle would be enough fore to feel that side of the ball was back on track.

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Well yeah, and my point was that a new coach / staff / scheme is not always a hotheaded knee-jerk reaction either. Sometimes it can be just what you needed. Sometimes it will work against you. Other times it's more of the same.

    I know I'm probably not considered a glass-half-full kind of guy by many around here, but it is astounding role reversal to me, seeing how many people are automatically against a coaching move because the unknown must be worse.

    The Eagles don't prove that moving on from Tomlin is or is not the right decision ... but they do provide a great example that it is not the guaranteed disaster that some people predict. And not necessarily for the reasons that any of us think, either.

    For what it's worth, it is pretty clear by now that Tomlin is not going to be let go this offseason unless he's caught with a quarter-ton of cocaine in his speedboat, and maybe not even then - so this is all a theoretical exercise anyway.
    I really don't get the whole "Don't make a coaching move because the next guy could be worse". That's the coward's way of thinking, being too afraid to make much needed change because the next guy could be worse. Sure, the odds of the replacement being successful aren't perfect. Hell the odds of getting a replacement who can win the Super Bowl may be only 25% and maybe only as high as 30%. But choosing to stick with the same mediocrity/underachieving, your odds of winning the Super Bowl really go down to 0%. It's not that changing coaches guarantees greater success, it's that it offers an opportunity for greater success. And if somehow, the guy is a complete failure then try again, at least then you will be quicker to get rid of the obvious disaster and get a high draft pick and a shot a game changer rather than picking in the 20s and selecting 2nd tier players and be lucky to select a pro bowler. And NFL teams can always be rebuilt if they become shitshows and have. The Eagles are actually a great example, they decided to change course and move on from Reid, but failed with getting Chip Kelly. He got swiftly fired and then got Doug Pederson and they are Super Bowl champions, all while Reid still hasn't won the big game

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    You're right. For me, if I see something different from the defense, not necessarily better but a move towards a different plan, then I'm okay with the seemingly low level changes that got made.

    I think that a better plan for 5 reciever sets, far less Lbers on guys they can't hope to cover, generating turnovers, and far more use of rotational players if/when starters struggle would be enough fore to feel that side of the ball was back on track.
    I think you're dead-on about that. Unfortunately, we've been facing the same problems on defense for the great majority of this past decade and failed to come up with a solution, and I have run out of faith that we are going to by sticking to the same incremental changes. I am starting to think our scheme was even outdated well before the 2010s, but having Polamalu covered that up until he got too old.

    As I have said before, the solution may be as simple as switching to a 3-3-5 base with a third safety who can either cover TEs/#3 WRs or play the run as a hybrid DB/LB type player. Sounds like we were sort of trying Burnett in that role, but we weren't in that defense enough and he wasn't good enough at it either. Regardless, I have not seem much innovation or even timely adjustments out of this defense, and when it goes on for years and years, ultimately that comes back to the top.

    Not saying we CAN'T fix it without a coaching change, I just find it unlikely, like if you were sitting around for years waiting for the Catholic Church to suddenly come out and say they changed their mind, and abortions were A-ok by them.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    I think you're dead-on about that. Unfortunately, we've been facing the same problems on defense for the great majority of this past decade and failed to come up with a solution, and I have run out of faith that we are going to by sticking to the same incremental changes. I am starting to think our scheme was even outdated well before the 2010s, but having Polamalu covered that up until he got too old.

    As I have said before, the solution may be as simple as switching to a 3-3-5 base with a third safety who can either cover TEs/#3 WRs or play the run as a hybrid DB/LB type player. Sounds like we were sort of trying Burnett in that role, but we weren't in that defense enough and he wasn't good enough at it either. Regardless, I have not seem much innovation or even timely adjustments out of this defense, and when it goes on for years and years, ultimately that comes back to the top.

    Not saying we CAN'T fix it without a coaching change, I just find it unlikely, like if you were sitting around for years waiting for the Catholic Church to suddenly come out and say they changed their mind, and abortions were A-ok by them.
    All good points and a solid Catholic church joke to boot.

    I know it's damning with faint praise, but this all looks different if Shazier is functioning in the polamalu role. Which I remain convinced was the plan from.day one.

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    Senior Member Array title="teegre has a reputation beyond repute"> teegre's Avatar

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    Re: Eagles Have Drama...Fire Pederson!

    Wait a second.

    Just last week, people were saying that the four best coaches in the NFL were in the AFCCG & the NFCCG. Yet, now... Andy Reid is suddenly not so good???

    Come on people, be consistent. You know... like the refs.

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