It is a bit strange with so much money involved that there isnt a better way.Originally Posted by steelreserve
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It is a bit strange with so much money involved that there isnt a better way.
Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
One would think so but there is no secret sauce.
The NFL is a mom & pop operation in terms of dollar value compared to major corporations and what they pay their CEOs. Bad CEO hiring decisions are made all the time through not only flaws in the process but flaws in the individuals that make it through the process.
You'd think there would be, but on the other hand - no amount of money in the world can help you scientifically measure the things that make a good coach. People skills, strategy, improvisation, responding to pressure, organization, leadership in a practical sense, fitting all that to the specific situation ... basically what are called "intangibles" in players - well, coaching is basically ALL intangibles.
In a lot of ways, I suppose finding a good head coach is also a reflection of the "intangibles" of the ownership. That and good luck.
See you Space Cowboy ...
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Well, Im glad the doctor that just replaced my ankle had experence.
Really tough to compare NBA and NFL, IMO. Five guys on the floor vs 22 if you consider offensive and defensive football. You could win in the NBA with 3 or 4 good players, but still needed 1 or 2 GREAT players. Run TMC were good, but more spot shooters than guys who could create and make guys around them better.
I know what you are trying to do with the comparison, but I think we can honestly say the Steelers defense hasn't been good since a lot of the guys like Troy, Farrior, Hampton, Smith, Keisel, Harrison, Taylor, Clark, etc moved on. A basketball reference is more like the Loyola Marymount teams of Paul Westhead, which are all offense and whatever you can muster on D. The only thing is that sometimes Ben comes up with a cold shooting night(like every time he plays Oakland) and you just chalk it up as an L.
Tomlin isn't going anywhere unless next season is 6-10 and there is more locker room mess. More likely is that the Steelers trade AB and it doesn't go well, they end up 6-10 next year, Ben retires and its a complete reset. Then he might be on the way out, but he might also be given a chance to rebuild it.
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Steelers might stick with Tomlin for a rebuild. Saints stuck with Sean Payton and that was a guy who was suspended for a year followed by three consecutive 7-9 seasons before his recent second act of success (although having Drew Bees is a nice player to have around for your rebuild.)
The question some Steelers fans seem incapable of comprehending is whether Tomlin might decide he no longer wants to stick with the Steelers due to factors including the ridiculous expectations of a portion of the fan base and at some point being ready to move on to a fresh start when there are numerous teams that would be glad to provide it to you.
The similarity with Nelson is that they were always "good enough" that he wasn't in danger of losing his job ... but they also could never get past "good enough," in large part because of their philosophy.
What you say about the Steelers' defense is absolutely correct, and also very similar to to Don Nelson-era Warriors ... their problem was that for years, they had no effective post players to speak of, and got run over by teams that could take advantage of that. Every year they'd bring in a new bullshit 6'9" or 6'10" guy who was a good center in college but lacked the size or athleticism to play center in the pros, and usually also lacked the skill set even to be a decent NBA power forward. So they'd pile up 4 or 5 young tweener players at a time who had "potential" and raw ability, but never put it together into anything coherent. And then as a band-aid they'd add a 7-foot-plus guy who was so awkward and slow he was useless, and they'd get a new one of those every year or two. Seems to have a lot in common with what we've been going through trying to rebuild our defense.
Really the Warriors of that time were the closest NBA equivalent to Paul Westhead and Loyola Marymount, and that comparison was made fairly frequently. One-dimensional small ball, and tgey try to beat you 155-154.
Just like Tomlin, Nelson wasn't ever getting fired because the plan kept being "good enough," not unless there was other off-the-court bullshit going on, which eventually there was. Although his exit was more like what AtlantaDan describes, resigning in frustration.
Funny thing about that argument by the way ... if Tomlin decided not to stick around because of some fans' ridiculous expectations, wouldn't that be exactly what those fans wanted? Why does that make them "incapable of comprehending?" Because they don't want the same thing you want?
See you Space Cowboy ...
Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
I assume you are responding to this statement by me
What I said some Steelers fans seem incapable of comprehending is that Tomlin (or for that matter anyone else) might decide they do not want to hang around the Steelers until their tenure is terminated. The postings on this board are heavy on reasons why Tomlin should be fired and light on how he probably could have another HC job quickly if he wanted to leave, leaving the impression he has little control over his future employment. Check out what the Ravens have on their hands in trying to negotiate a contract extension with John Harbaugh if you doubt the extent of Tomlin's leverage.The question some Steelers fans seem incapable of comprehending is whether Tomlin might decide he no longer wants to stick with the Steelers due to factors including the ridiculous expectations of a portion of the fan base and at some point being ready to move on to a fresh start when there are numerous teams that would be glad to provide it to you.
There is a significant portion of the Steelers fan base that cannot conceive of coaches leaving the hallowed Pittsburgh Steelers simply for personal reasons or because they might want a change. The postings on how Mike Munchak surely would not have left the Steelers in a lateral move unless something horrible was going on in Tomlin's locker room reflect that attitude when based on all credible information it had nothing to due with that.
As far as your statement, "if Tomlin decided not to stick around because of some fans' ridiculous expectations, wouldn't that be exactly what those fans wanted?," the posts I am reading are not asking Tomlin to voluntarily move on - they want his ass fired. And yeah - the expectations of some Steelers fans that their team is the center of the football universe from which nobody would ever voluntarily depart and that every decade should be like the 70s with talent that in the past several years has been very good but flawed, while not clearly superior to that of a number of other teams in the league, are ridiculous.
Circling back to my contention that those inflated expectations can cause a coach to leave, in the A Football Life episode on Bill Cowher, which I highly recommend, his daughters said a significant factor in Cowher leaving was that Cowher and his family simply were burned out on the fishbowl existence of living in Pittsburgh as the coach of the Steelers. To the credit of the current generation of fans, I have not yet read rumors of marital infidelity being circulated about Tomlin as they were about Cowher after he had the audacity to incur back to back losing seasons, but stay tuned.
Finally, I want the same thing all Steelers fans do - to have the Steelers hoist the Lombardi every February. But unlike some fans I do not have a sense of entitlement that if it does not occur it must be due to bad coaching that requires change for the sake of change with nothing close to a guarantee that change will be for the better rather than the worse.
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A. Id be happy if Tomlin decided to move on.
B. Im quite sure hed have 3-4 suitors lining up.
My opinion is that hes a good coach (long ways from great), whose time with one team has run its course. I dont think this will happen for another 4-5 years, but it would be my preference for it o happen ASAP.
As for Tomlins future, I think hed be much better as a studio analyst than on the sidelines.
Go ahead Tomlin move on for the sake of the team so the Steelers can have a shot at another Super Bowl. Some shit team can hire him only to be disappointed when he can't actually turn a bad team into a good team
I assume you are responding to this statement by me
What I said some Steelers fans seem incapable of comprehending is that Tomlin (or for that matter anyone else) might decide they do not want to hang around the Steelers until their tenure is terminated. The postings on this board are heavy on reasons why Tomlin should be fired and light on how he probably could have another HC job quickly if he wanted to leave, leaving the impression he has little control over his future employment. Check out what the Ravens have on their hands in trying to negotiate a contract extension with John Harbaugh if you doubt the extent of Tomlin's leverage.
There is a significant portion of the Steelers fan base that cannot conceive of coaches leaving the hallowed Pittsburgh Steelers simply for personal reasons or because they might want a change. The postings on how Mike Munchak surely would not have left the Steelers in a lateral move unless something horrible was going on in Tomlin's locker room reflect that attitude when based on all credible information it had nothing to due with that.
As far as your statement, "if Tomlin decided not to stick around because of some fans' ridiculous expectations, wouldn't that be exactly what those fans wanted?," the posts I am reading are not asking Tomlin to voluntarily move on - they want his ass fired. And yeah - the expectations of some Steelers fans that their team is the center of the football universe from which nobody would ever voluntarily depart and that every decade should be like the 70s with talent that in the past several years has been very good but flawed, while not clearly superior to that of a number of other teams in the league, are ridiculous.
Circling back to my contention that those inflated expectations can cause a coach to leave, in the A Football Life episode on Bill Cowher, which I highly recommend, his daughters said a significant factor in Cowher leaving was that Cowher and his family simply were burned out on the fishbowl existence of living in Pittsburgh as the coach of the Steelers. To the credit of the current generation of fans, I have not yet read rumors of marital infidelity being circulated about Tomlin as they were about Cowher after he had the audacity to incur back to back losing seasons, but stay tuned.
Finally, I want the same thing all Steelers fans do - to have the Steelers hoist the Lombardi every February. But unlike some fans I do not have a sense of entitlement that if it does not occur it must be due to bad coaching that requires change for the sake of change with nothing close to a guarantee that change will be for the better rather than the worse.
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The current going rate for head coaches who have similar records to Tomlin is $11 million per year (when he most likely gets extended by AJRII for around that amount this summer the posts at SU about that payout should be entertaining)
The Ravens probably want to offer Harbaugh a similar three-year extension to the one signed by Seattle Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll in December. Carrolls deal is worth $11 million per season.
https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/...117-story.html
Unless Tomlin gets burned out on coaching like Cowher did I doubt he would take the pay cut to sit in the studio and get paid to laugh at the jokes of the other analysts. Other than Cowher a studio analyst gig is a very lucrative form of unemployment compensation for fired HCs
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Maybe he’ll decide he wants to watch his kids play sports before it’s too late! We can always dream...
Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
He will no longer be able to watch his older son's games on Friday nights since Dino Tomlin is off to play ball at Maryland next fall so now may be the time
https://usatodayhss.com/2018/dino-to...picks-maryland
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That said, aside from AB in week 17, Rooney seems pretty happy with the state of the franchise, the on-field performance, the coaches and the culture. I'm quite sure that we could be headed to the dark ages again in the very near future.
That sums it up well. Tomlin is not a "bad" coach, many teams would be happy to have him, etc., etc., etc.
But I don't think we're going to win another championship with him, and at this point we're not particularly close. Being consistently "pretty good" for another 5 years doesn't do anything for me.
"OH BUT SPOILED STEELERS FANS OMG!!! WONT BE HAPPY UNLESS YOU GO 16-0 AND WIN THE SUPPER BOWL EVERY YEAR & EVEN THEN YOUD STILL COMPLAIN!!! WELL YOU COULD BE A BROWNS FAN & THEN WHAT, EVER THINK ABOUT THAT?!?!"
Well guess what, we've won exactly the same number of championships as the Browns in the past decade. Despite having one of the best quarterbacks in the league and a lot of talent around him, all we manage are pretty-good regular seasons culminating in disappointment. Yeah, we SHOULD be having pretty good regular seasons with a top QB, Einstein. Congratulations, we've done as expected - golf clap. 9-6-1 is a fitting summary of the past decade. Time to aim for better than that.
Again - not a terrible coach. We just need something different at this point.
I would also be very, very, VERY curious to see what Tomlin's winning percentage would look like if he did not have a HOF quarterback on the team for his entire career.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute">
When Ben(HoF quarterback) retires in a few years we will find out what Tomlin can do without one.
Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
Hard to say so far, but if he had a .500 record without a HOF QB would that "prove" Tomlin is a mediocre coach?
Maybe what Belichick's record was in Cleveland without Brady? (36-44)
https://www.pro-football-reference.c...es/BeliBi0.htm
Or maybe Noll's record after Bradshaw retired? (60-67 which includes the 8-7 record during the 1987 strike year in which replacement players games were included)
https://www.pro-football-reference.c...es/NollCh0.htm
About the only coach I can recall who had great and recurring success without a great QB was Joe Gibbs (3 Lombardis with three diferent journeyman QBs)
OK - let's play that game
Assume we time travel back to December 30th and Tomlin decides to resign since he clearly has lost the team and is humiliated by constantly underperforming by only winning one Super Bowl with a HOF QB since he was hired (even though the only coaches to have won more than one Lombardi with an arguably HOF QB in this century are Belichick & Coughlin).
If winning multiple Super Bowls with a HOF QB is your metric for success would you hire Coughlin (assume Belichick elects to stay in New England and take his chances with Brady)?
Or one of the hires for the 8 vacancies that have been filled in the past 3 weeks (in addition to the 7 announced hires Miami allegedly is going with the obligatory rando Patriots assistant Brian Flores)?
Or Mike Munchak and his 22-26 record as a HC with the Titans?
Or someone else?
It is easy to throw rocks at the incumbent - maybe not so easy to come up with a clearly preferable alternative assuming your goal is to improve the team rather than just fire the HC in an act of petulance because "something must be done" after the appropriate number of years without winning a Super Bowl while having a HOF QB on the roster (how many years is that?) has expired
Go for it
I'd say 10 years is plenty; I mean, if not then nothing is.It is easy to throw rocks at the incumbent - maybe not so easy to come up with a clearly preferable alternative assuming your goal is to improve the team rather than just fire the HC in an act of petulance because "something must be done" after the appropriate number of years without winning a Super Bowl while having a HOF QB on the roster (how many years is that?) has expired
Go for it
Moreover, the manner in which you don't win those years - not being a serious contender for most of them despite having a HOF quarterback - says a lot as well, e.g it's not just bad luck.
Ah, the "well who would replace him" conversation, as if we haven't been over this a million times. You limit it to established successful NFL coaches and say it's impossible to find anyone better. I tell you those self-imposed parameters are only there as the equivalent of a loaded question that lets you dismiss any argument out of hand. I say the next coach will probably be someone other than an established HC, someone only die-hard football insiders will know well (like Tomlin was when we hired him). You dismiss that argument saying I'm not being specific.
If we were having this conversation in 2004, how would you have reacted? "You really think you can replace Cowher, who's made the playoffs 8 out of 11 years and has one of the best winning percentages of all coaches, with MIKE TOMLIN?? So you're basically saying it doesn't matter and you can just pick anybody? GTFO."
You know it's the truth. So that pretty well ends that little argument.
For the record, yes, I would call Coughlin's two Super Bowls in 10 years a much better success than Tomlin's zero Super Bowls in 10 years (but he had pretty good regular seasons!) Given the benefit of hindsight, that would've been a very easy call. I do not think Coughlin would be a good choice now, among other things because he's getting too old, so hindsight is really all there is in that case. Munchak, well ... he had about a .500 record without a HOF quarterback, right, so ... do you dismiss him out of hand or not?
The point of the Super Bowl argument is that if you have NOT won one for thst length of time, and if it still seems you are several steps away after all that time ... then perhaps your ceiling is "pretty good." There are plenty of people like that, including coaches, I don't think that's an outrageous idea. Pretty good is also not going to do the job when the standard of success is above that.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Zu, I enjoy your posts, they are well written and informative as you clearly know the game very well. I genuinely gave Tomlin credit for being a good locker room coach or it commonly described alayer's Coach". I can't rationalize this opinion any longer. I ask you with all respect What does Tomlin do that is great? .
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I’d say follow the trend and hire a young playcaller. Otherwise, I’d go with Munch.
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Continuity! lol. Seriously that's the Steelers way, and it's served them well for 50 years now. Honestly except for a handful of diva's and knuckelheads I think he has a good grip on the team. Most players enjoy playing for him and respect him. I don't think he's a great X's and O's guy. But I think for the most part he keeps them motivated and prepared as well or better than most NFL coaches.Zu, I enjoy your posts, they are well written and informative as you clearly know the game very well. I genuinely gave Tomlin credit for being a good locker room coach or it commonly described a
Could he be improved upon? Yes? By who? I don't know? He obviously gets the 19 season to figure things out. I hope he does for all of our sake. If he doesn't I seriously think Rooney will get rid of him.
Everyone keeps asking why there hasn't been any major changes on the coaching staff? To me it's evident.Rooney isn't going to bring a top rate assistant on board only to let him go next season if and when he hires a new coach. In other words Tomlin is going to sink or swim on his own accord with his own hand chosen staff.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
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I am not in the 'blame Tomlin' camp for all of the Steeler's issues. However, if there was one thing that I think has attributed to some of the disappointments is sticking to a game plan that is obviously not working. Not over the course of the season but individual games. The obvious example is how we have played defensively against the Patriots over the last several seasons. Different personnel groupings yet using the same plan without success. I do put this directly on Tomlin. I love that we changed that strategy this past season and finally broke the losing streak. There have been some very well put together game plans as well and Tomlin should get credit for those.
You do not get rid of your HC because he's "not the best out there". There is so much more to being a HC than game planning and most of that he does a very good job at as well. Blaming Tomlin for 'locker room culture' is naive and ignorant of how things work at the NFL level. Coaches rarely ever even go into the locker room or interact with players off of the field or outside of meetings. This is a job to every man there and is not a high school or college team situation. In fact, considering how long Tomlin was able to keep the egos of Ben, AB, and Bell all on roughly the same page, while drawing up winning game plans, is one of the things that makes him a very good HC. I do not believe a player like AB would have seen the success he has under a coach like Coughlin or Bellichick, whoever the QB was.
I put most blame for problems teams have, not just the Steelers, on the players themselves. Like I mentioned before this is a job. Some players understand that more than others. Most players understand their role/job and work to be the best they can be at what they do. Then there are those players that are "building their brand", whatever that means. The difference to me is as easy as 'team vs individual'. All players do what they do MOSTLY for team. Still using the example of AB, he gave it all for the team until he didn't. Can he/they get back to that? Maybe/maybe not, but either way it's out of Tomlin's hands and he is not to blame here.
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I have always been a supporter of Mike Tomlin. I think he has been a very good head coach.
Here is Mike Tomlin's career coaching record:https://www.pro-football-reference.c...es/TomlMi0.htm
He has been with the team for a long time. He took over a talented roster, made it his own, and led them to 2 Super Bowls...winning one.
That team became very old, and the roster needed to be rebuilt. He still had a great quarterback, but it needed an infusion of youth and talent. During the years of the rebuild that started occurring after the 2010 Super Bowl, he was able to keep the organization stable and was able to help build the roster with the talent that Colbert and the front office provided him. In that time, he never had a losing record while constantly upgrading the talent level of the team and having to replace and upgrade many players at various positions.
The team looked like it finally had enough pieces to really compete for a Super Bowl. They had a bunch of quality skill position players, and an improving offensive line. The defense was improving, and had several key players in place. They weren't deep, but they were talented at many of the starting positions.
The team made the playoffs 2014-2017, but there would always be a major injury to a key player or two going into the playoffs. In 2016 they played three playoff games going 2-1, losing in the AFC Championship game.
In 2017, they went 13-3 for their best regular season record under Tomlin. Ryan Shazier was lost to a spinal cord injury, and the team was never able to overcome the massive loss to the defense and they were one and done in the playoffs.
2018....Bell holding out the entire season....Shazier unable to return from injury.....$22.5 million of salary cap from those two players not able to be used for needed help to fill holes....A tough schedule.....the squandered opportunities in too many games and had some heartbreaking losses due to some horrible breaks and bad officiating.....AB happened and is happening.
I'm not going to sit there and tell you that this year was perfect from the coaching perspective. It was far from that. What I am saying is that there are valid reasons why the team has only won 3 playoff games since the 2010 Super Bowl season. I spelled that out in the paragraphs above.
Here is where I am with Mike Tomlin as a coach:
He needs to have a good offseason.
The team needs to resolve the issue with Antonio Brown one way or another.
LeVeon Bell situation needs to be solved. Either let him go and move on, or use a tag that can get the team compensation.
This team needs to acquire talent through free agency and the draft.
He needs to put together a roster with the new talent that plays together as a team with much less drama.
He needs to solve any and all position coach issues with scheme or use of talent. The defensive coach wasn't his hire. He was the organization's hire, but that doesn't absolve Tomlin. He comes from a defensive background. He needs to be able to solve the defensive issues with scheme that the team has been having. If Butler fails, and he doesn't take over the defense, it probably means that Tomlin doesn't have any answers himself or has had a big hand in the performance of the defense all along and is a very big part of the failure.
It is time for Tomlin to face some of his deficiencies as a coach and make improvements. Time management, challenges, keeping pet players that offer next to nothing in on-field production over more physically talented players, etc..
I believe he needs to put together a really good year next season. If this team wins less than 10 games...it's probably time to move on to a new head coach with a new voice and message.
Make no mistake....all this is not on Tomlin. The organization put him in some of these positions by dictating assistant coaches. The recent problems are not all on Mike Tomlin by a long shot. That's where people sometimes can't see that the blame shouldn't all go to one location.
I still have confidence in Mike Tomlin as a coach. I believe he still has a chance to get it done. His new coaches and the moves the front office makes are going to help determine Tomlin's future with the team.
Let's hope the give him everything he needs to succeed. If they do...everybody wins.
I am not inside but if the people he works with say his football iq is off the charts, he lacks an ability to correct and plan or influence draft, fa talent.
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Merry Christmas
Meh. If the Steelers haven't deep- sixed Ben, I highly doubt they'll get rid of Tomlin.
"You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland
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Got it - just replace him with someone. Bold choice there. Thanks for sharing.
I think Tomlin needs to make some significant changes in how he does business with regard to player relations (that includes both discipline and not outsourcing the offense to the HOF QB) and being held accountable for the failure to fix the defenses and special teams. If his position is fixing the defense and special teams is what Butler & Danny Smith are paid to do (although Tomlin allegedly is now very hands on with the defense) then Butler & Smith should have been replaced. The ongoing “cultural” problem is a lack of being held accountable, both in terms of players and assistant coaches to Tomlin as well as Tomlin and Colbert (I include Colbert due to the first round misses on Jones, Dupree & Burns) to AJRII
The tricky question is whether to extend Tomlin this summer with 2 years left on his contract. Cowher received such extensions coming off worse seasons than Tomlin’s 2018.. If Tomlin is not extended and the team improves in 2019 Tomlin’s price will go up and he may follow the Harbaugh playbook by either driving a harder bargain or just saying let’s wait until after my contract runs out to see where I may be coaching next.
I obviously do not think Tomlin should have been let go after this past season but do not believe he merits an extension until there is demonstrated improvement in his performance (which is mostly but not exclusively reflected by future postseason success). But as I state above not giving it to him before next season could backfire.
This is the most important offseason for AJRII since he really took over contol of the team when Dan Rooney left for Ireland in 2009
Taperiots fans were having this exact same discussion prior to the 2014 season: “Belichick hasn’t won a Super Bowl in a decade!!!”
I know, I know: the Taperiots went to two Super Bowls during those ten years. That’s not the point. The point is that winning Super Bowls is damn difficult.
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Very damn difficult.....and this franchise has won more than any other.
They know exactly how hard it is and what it takes to win one....and that's why they are more patient than fans.
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I know we look for a lot here in Pittsburgh because of the success of the past. Maybe that colors our judgement when we look at where we are now, but it's not the actual results that cause me aggravation with Tomlin. None of us are football professionals, none of us are NFL coaches, but ALL of us see the same problems repeating not just game to game, but season to season and the problems persist without any visible changes from Tomlin to address them. The secondary has been a problem for half a decade, special teams has sucked for as long as anyone can remember except for field goal kicking (this year was the first troublesome year in a long time). There are parts of this team that continue to do well (mostly offensively now), but the parts that we struggle with, Tomlin doesn't seem interested in making significant changes to the approach. THAT is a problem. If he was trying significantly different approaches but not having the success we are looking for I'd respect that and acknowledge that he's trying to fix the problems. We don't get that though. We get minimal or no changes to strategy with a coach who apparently is expecting a different result. That Butler and Smith haven't been let go is mystifying. Does Tomlin really think these guys are gonna get better at their jobs? They haven't shown us or Tomlin that they can get it done yet Tomlin sees no need to make changes. If you're not getting better, you're getting worse. There is no status quo in the NFL.
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