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Thread: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

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    Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Everyone except Jeremy Fowler is reporting that the Steelers will take a huge cap hit ($20M+) by trading AB. But for the past week Fowler has stated differently in his articles. I asked about this in another thread but no one every replied.

    I give you a couple of examples of this below:

    TODAY:
    The Steelers have $18.25 million in salary cap room according to NFLPA's latest report, the sixth-most in the NFL. A lot will change come March. Trading Antonio Brown would add $1.045 million to that.
    4 DAYS AGO:
    The Steelers would absorb $21.12 million in 2019 dead money on the salary cap by trading Brown, but taking his $22.165 million cap charge off the books would offset that cost.
    Could someone please explain to a simple boy raised in West Virginia how Fowler sees this differently and how it works?

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    I have no idea how any of it works, but those numbers seem way off. A quick internet search reveals that Steelers have between 12-21 million dollars in cap space. That is about the 6th LEAST in the league. So that seems wrong. No reason to trust he got the rest of the math right.

    Try playing around with this -- https://overthecap.com/player/antonio-brown/1579/

    I can sort of replicate the math, but not sure because Fowler is light on the details.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    He isn’t the only one reporting, I have read 3 articles basically saying the same thing, there will be minimal cap hit by trading AB, one article (sorry it was on my pc and I am posting on my phone now so no links) had 3 different tweets in stating that the cap hit was not enough to stop a trade.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    These two articles lay out it all out pretty clearly:

    1. https://steelersdepot.com/2019/01/st...antonio-brown/
    2. https://steelersdepot.com/2019/01/fo...his-offseason/

    From the second link:

    "Brandt continued on with why he thinks Brown will still be with the Steelers in 2019.
    “Fantasy general managers have all kinds of theories to make this work: The Steelers could save Brown’s future non-guaranteed cash going forward and basically have a wash cap-wise this year. Please. The Steelers are not going to carry a cap charge of $21 million for a player no longer on their roster..."

    I think that is what is getting reported. That it COSTS roughly $21 million this year to get rid of AB but that is off-set by NOT paying him the $22 million that his contract would mandate in 2020-2021. The logic behind that is basically the same logic that Bell was using...

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Thanks mojouw but that doesn’t mesh with Fowler’s information that he has stated in at least 3-4 articles or tweets I’ve read by him over the past 7 days. His info says that the cap hit is negated.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Thanks mojouw but that doesn’t mesh with Fowler’s information that he has stated in at least 3-4 articles or tweets I’ve read by him over the past 7 days. His info says that the cap hit is negated.
    Fowler did a two paragraph version that is longer but still misleading - this summary below works if Brown is cut, which is not happening since that would result in the Steelers getting nothing in return..

    Brown has a salary cap hit of $22.165 million this year, and if he's off the roster, the Steelers take on $21.120 million worth of dead money. The Steelers could separate that dead money into two seasons by designating him as a post-June 1 cut, making the 2019 hit $7.05 million. But the other $14.05 million would spill into 2020. The Steelers don’t have the luxury of a post-June 1 designation on a trade. It’s only for released players, each team can use two designations per year and the cap relief doesn’t kick in until June 2.

    So, deferring the money means you have to deal with it later. But here’s where the Steelers can get creative: Cut Brown before paying the $2.5 million roster bonus, which is due on the fifth day of the league year, and save $15.1 in salary cap -- Brown’s $22.165 million cap number in 2019 minus the $7.040 million in dead money. Then, in 2020, the cap savings would be around $4 million -- take Brown’s $18.34 million cap hit off the books against the $14.08 million of dead money.

    http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh-...-trade-chances

    The Steelers will still have dead money to account for - Fowler makes it sound like the cap hit will disappear based on the one sentence summary you quoted - it will not but Fowler used word salad to perhaps mask he was just parroting what he read or was told by someone else and left the misimpression the cap hit will only be $1 million. The Steelers cap hit will still be $21 million less whatever savings they get by not paying Brown in 2019 in terms of $$$ they can spend on other players.

    Ed Bouchette's article (which I would not be surprised was a source of Fowler's ESPN summaries) was more coherent, presumably because Ed B. spoke with someone in the Steelers front office who explained it to him

    If he plays in 2019, his salary cap figure will be $22,165,000. If they trade him, his salary cap figure will be $21,120,000.

    But there’s more than that. What isn’t being taken into account is his 2019 salary of $12,625,000 that won’t be paid and will be wiped from their cap, even though Brown’s individual cap figure will technically remain the same. Also, Brown is due a $2.5 million roster bonus five days after the new league season begins March 13.

    That’s a real AND cap savings of more than $15 million in salary and bonus that won’t be paid or count if they trade him before March 18.

    That brings his realistic salary cap hit down to $6 million if they trade him by then, although technically on the books it will be that $21 million-plus in “dead money.” Plus, it would eliminate him from the books forever after 2019.

    https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...s/201901020122

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    Fowler did a two paragraph version that is longer but still misleading - this summary below works if Brown is cut, which is not happening since that would result in the Steelers getting nothing in return..

    Brown has a salary cap hit of $22.165 million this year, and if he's off the roster, the Steelers take on $21.120 million worth of dead money. The Steelers could separate that dead money into two seasons by designating him as a post-June 1 cut, making the 2019 hit $7.05 million. But the other $14.05 million would spill into 2020. The Steelers don’t have the luxury of a post-June 1 designation on a trade. It’s only for released players, each team can use two designations per year and the cap relief doesn’t kick in until June 2.

    So, deferring the money means you have to deal with it later. But here’s where the Steelers can get creative: Cut Brown before paying the $2.5 million roster bonus, which is due on the fifth day of the league year, and save $15.1 in salary cap -- Brown’s $22.165 million cap number in 2019 minus the $7.040 million in dead money. Then, in 2020, the cap savings would be around $4 million -- take Brown’s $18.34 million cap hit off the books against the $14.08 million of dead money.

    http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh-...-trade-chances

    The Steelers will still have dead money to account for - Fowler makes it sound like the cap hit will disappear based on the one sentence summary you quoted - it will not but Fowler used word salad to perhaps mask he was just parroting what he read or was told by someone else and left the misimpression the cap hit will only be $1 million. The Steelers cap hit will still be $21 million less whatever savings they get by not paying Brown in 2019 in terms of $$$ they can spend on other players.

    Ed Bouchette's article (which I would not be surprised was a source of Fowler's ESPN summaries) was more coherent, presumably because Ed B. spoke with someone in the Steelers front office who explained it to him

    If he plays in 2019, his salary cap figure will be $22,165,000. If they trade him, his salary cap figure will be $21,120,000.

    But there’s more than that. What isn’t being taken into account is his 2019 salary of $12,625,000 that won’t be paid and will be wiped from their cap, even though Brown’s individual cap figure will technically remain the same. Also, Brown is due a $2.5 million roster bonus five days after the new league season begins March 13.

    That’s a real AND cap savings of more than $15 million in salary and bonus that won’t be paid or count if they trade him before March 18.

    That brings his realistic salary cap hit down to $6 million if they trade him by then, although technically on the books it will be that $21 million-plus in “dead money.” Plus, it would eliminate him from the books forever after 2019.

    https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...s/201901020122
    Sounds like the Rooneys save some cash but the team still takes the cap hit?

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Fowler only has one job at ESPN: the Steelers. Not sure how he can keep screwing it up.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Sounds like the Rooneys save some cash but the team still takes the cap hit?
    Team takes the cap hit but team also frees up $$$ it does not have to pay AB if he is playing somewhere else

    Scenarios go as follows.

    In the unlikely event AB stays in Pittsburgh in 2019, he gets real $$$ additional payments of a $2.5 million roster bonus and his salary of $12,625,000 (total $15.125 million). The $22.165 million cap figure if he stays on the roster includes that salry & roster bonus but also includes the prorated share of the initial 2017 signing bonus, in the amount of $3.8 million, and the prorated share of an additional restructuring bonus, in the amount of $3.24 million. So $7.04 million of the $22.165 cap figure if he stays is the prorated for 2019 share of the bonuses that already have been paid.

    https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsbur...io-brown-6702/

    Scenario #2 is AB is traded (or cut but that is not going to happen to AB). In that case the entire dead money cap hit is dumped into the Steelers 2019 cap in the amount of $21.120 million.

    But if he is traded the Steelers will not have to pay his 2019 salary of $12.625 million or, if they trade him before mid-March, his roster bonus of $2.5 million - whoever gets AB takes those $$$ on to their salary cap. Those savings, in the amount of either $12.625 million or $15.125 million, come off the Steelers books and are additional available $$$ under the 2019 cap to pay someone else.

    What makes a trade work for another team is only having to pay the non-bonus $$$ remaining due under AB's contract and being able to release him without having to worry about dead bonus money being accelerated (since the Steelers already took the hit for that under their cap) if he gets old and they want to get rid of him before the end of his contract.

    Where Fowler screwed up was contending the dead money cap hit of $21.12 million would be "offset" by the $22.165 million cap hit if AB stays in Pittsburgh without first backing out the prorated bonus $$$ of $7.04 million included in that $22.165 million cap calculation which are already spent and cannot be recovered. The only money the Steelers can save and spend elsewhere under the 2019 cap is the salary and roster bonus owed to AB for 2019. Of course they also get future salary off the books and available in 2020 and 2021.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    The way things are worded about “savings” are sometimes weird and misleading. It is over a million dollars LESS of a cap hit for the Steelers if AB is traded before March whatever than if he’s still on the team. So yay. Trade him and a mil more in cap space than if you keep him.

    But not yay. Because you still taking a (slightly less) BIG cap hit, only you don’t have the actual player!

    Put it this way. Ask any of the other 31 teams this football question: would you rather take a $21 million cap hit for no player that is actually on your team, or a $22 mil cap hit and have Antonio Brown on your team?

    So if I were applying for a GM job in the NFL, and the owner of the team asked me that question during the interview process, I’m pretty sure I know how I’d answer the question.

    And here’s a hint as to how I wouldn’t answer it: “wow! We could save a million dollars in cap space just by not having the best WR in the known universe on our team? When do I start? This job is easy!”

    But I’m no cap wizard.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by HollywoodSteel View Post
    The way things are worded about “savings” are sometimes weird and misleading. It is over a million dollars LESS of a cap hit for the Steelers if AB is traded before March whatever than if he’s still on the team. So yay. Trade him and a mil more in cap space than if you keep him.

    But not yay. Because you still taking a (slightly less) BIG cap hit, only you don’t have the actual player!

    Put it this way. Ask any of the other 31 teams this football question: would you rather take a $21 million cap hit for no player that is actually on your team, or a $22 mil cap hit and have Antonio Brown on your team?

    So if I were applying for a GM job in the NFL, and the owner of the team asked me that question during the interview process, I’m pretty sure I know how I’d answer the question.

    And here’s a hint as to how I wouldn’t answer it: “wow! We could save a million dollars in cap space just by not having the best WR in the known universe on our team? When do I start? This job is easy!”

    But I’m no cap wizard.
    But if AB is off your team by mid-March you do not pay him his 2019 salary and roster bonus totaling $15 million. That reduces the net cap hit if you trade him to about $6 million ($21 million dead money - $15 million in saved salary & roster bonus)

    So the question can just as easily be framed as would you rather have $22 million tied up under your salary cap in 2019 in addition to big cap hits in future years for someone who is still one of the best receivers in football or take a net cap hit of $6 million in 2019 to end your financial obligations forever to a still great but aging receiver, who has disrespected the owner and head coach while causing increasing turmoil in the locker room, in return for a first round draft choice or a quality starter along with perhaps a lower round draft pick for an aging roster.

    No easy answer, at least for me

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    And in my opinion, all these talking heads who think AB isn’t worth at LEAST a first round pick are insane.

    First of all, we don’t need 31 teams willing to give up a first round pick. Just 1 team. And I’ll bet there are way more then one team.

    The thing that people are forgetting when they think most teams value youth over AB at 31 is that most head coaches don’t last long in this league unless they win now. AB helps you win now.

    If I were an NFL head coach who might easily be fired after the 2019 season, would I rather have AB in 2019 or my first round pick so I can draft my Sammy Watkins?

    There are no sure things in the draft. So unless you’re John Gruden who has a 10 year cushion, first round draft picks are less valuable than win now players.

    Imagine a team like the Packers. Add AB and you could win the the super bowl next year. What player in the draft is gonna bring a head coach that kind of sure thing value?

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by HollywoodSteel View Post
    And in my opinion, all these talking heads who think AB isn’t worth at LEAST a first round pick are insane.

    First of all, we don’t need 31 teams willing to give up a first round pick. Just 1 team. And I’ll bet there are way more then one team.

    The thing that people are forgetting when they think most teams value youth over AB at 31 is that most head coaches don’t last long in this league unless they win now. AB helps you win now.

    If I were an NFL head coach who might easily be fired after the 2019 season, would I rather have AB in 2019 or my first round pick so I can draft my Sammy Watkins?

    There are no sure things in the draft. So unless you’re John Gruden who has a 10 year cushion, first round draft picks are less valuable than win now players.

    Imagine a team like the Packers. Add AB and you could win the the super bowl next year. What player in the draft is gonna bring a head coach that kind of sure thing value?
    None. Draft picks aren’t worth anything near an All-Pro WR who is going to come at a reduced contract for three seasons. You’ll never find a WR in an NFL draft that accomplished and that talented out of the gates. It’s why he’s worth much more than a first round pick.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    None. Draft picks aren’t worth anything near an All-Pro WR who is going to come at a reduced contract for three seasons. You’ll never find a WR in an NFL draft that accomplished and that talented out of the gates. It’s why he’s worth much more than a first round pick.
    Whch is exactly why I do not want a draft pick, and instead, I’m adamant about getting a proven player in return.

    Cardinals have Peterson (who wants out of Arizona).

    Jaguars have Ramsey (who wants out of Jacksonville). He’s a lockerroom cancer, also (so, I get why that would be simply trading headaches).

    Broncos are supposedly interested, and they have Miller and Chubb. Neither is likely to be traded.

    Niners is where AB would prefer to go, and they have McGlinchey and Kittle. Neither is likely to be traded. They also have Warner, but he’s not nearly good enough for a straight up trade.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Whch is exactly why I do not want a draft pick, and instead, I’m adamant about getting a proven player in return.

    Cardinals have Peterson (who wants out of Arizona).

    Jaguars have Ramsey (who wants out of Jacksonville). He’s a lockerroom cancer, also (so, I get why that would be simply trading headaches).

    Broncos are supposedly interested, and they have Miller and Chubb. Neither is likely to be traded.

    Niners is where AB would prefer to go, and they have McGlinchey and Kittle. Neither is likely to be traded. They also have Warner, but he’s not nearly good enough for a straight up trade.
    What about Tampa Bay? Arians and Randle El are over there now. They will make it Pittsburgh Sunshine State. (AB is from Miami so a lot closer to his hometown)



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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Whch is exactly why I do not want a draft pick, and instead, I’m adamant about getting a proven player in return.

    Cardinals have Peterson (who wants out of Arizona).

    Jaguars have Ramsey (who wants out of Jacksonville). He’s a lockerroom cancer, also (so, I get why that would be simply trading headaches).

    Broncos are supposedly interested, and they have Miller and Chubb. Neither is likely to be traded.

    Niners is where AB would prefer to go, and they have McGlinchey and Kittle. Neither is likely to be traded. They also have Warner, but he’s not nearly good enough for a straight up trade.
    Consider the possibility the counterparty to any trade with the Steelers knows the risks of trading for AB and creating a hole in its own roster if it trades a player to get AB. The Steelers certainly have not cornered the market on front office expertise

    If replacing someone through the draft is an obvious crap shoot, that is why creating a vacancy at another position by trading for AB with the baggage he will bring is not going to result in getting anything close to a borderline or more Pro Bowl player unless that player is close to the end of his contract or has his own major issues (such as Ramsey) that will be brought into a locker room where the owner (and maybe finally the HC) wants to dial down the drama

    Except for his constant acting out the Steelers would never trade AB - any team doing business with the Steelers is going to discount his value given the turmoil in which he is involved and the Steelers putting up a flashing neon sign that he is for sale

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    But if AB is off your team by mid-March you do not pay him his 2019 salary and roster bonus totaling $15 million. That reduces the net cap hit if you trade him to about $6 million ($21 million dead money - $15 million in saved salary & roster bonus)

    So the question can just as easily be framed as would you rather have $22 million tied up under your salary cap in 2019 in addition to big cap hits in future years for someone who is still one of the best receivers in football or take a net cap hit of $6 million in 2019 to end your financial obligations forever to a still great but aging receiver, who has disrespected the owner and head coach while causing increasing turmoil in the locker room, in return for a first round draft choice or a quality starter along with perhaps a lower round draft pick for an aging roster.

    No easy answer, at least for me
    We don't "save" the $15 million for a net cap hit of 6. We merely save $15 million in salary, and then $14 million in dead money is accelerated into 2019 that wouldn't have been otherwise. Net cap hit $21 million, net savings $1 million. Any real savings come in future years. The reason why it is almost impossible to trade or release players with big signing bonuses and/or heavily restructured contracts who have multiple years remaininh on their deals. You eat too much dead money at once.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by tube517 View Post
    What about Tampa Bay? Arians and Randle El are over there now. They will make it Pittsburgh Sunshine State. (AB is from Miami so a lot closer to his hometown)
    Right after Arians called him a diva in the media? Likely not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I’m no clearer on Fowler’s claims than when I started the thread. Basically, the responses are just citing other sources that present a different scenario. Fowler is claiming that our available cap increases by trading AB.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    By my latest calculations it seems the Steelers currently have $7.34 in cap room.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Right after Arians called him a diva in the media? Likely not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I’m no clearer on Fowler’s claims than when I started the thread. Basically, the responses are just citing other sources that present a different scenario. Fowler is claiming that our available cap increases by trading AB.
    I think, but it seems that Atlanta Dan and steelreserve have a much better handle on things than I do, that Fowler is just wrong. What a surprise.

    I think the Steelers Depot article I linked earlier has it that if the team trades AB prior to March 17th they save $15 million in cash payouts but still have $21 million on their cap sheet for 2019. I think that the long and the short of it is that AB costs the Pittsburgh Steelers $21-22 million in 2019 cap space no matter what.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I think, but it seems that Atlanta Dan and steelreserve have a much better handle on things than I do, that Fowler is just wrong. What a surprise.

    I think the Steelers Depot article I linked earlier has it that if the team trades AB prior to March 17th they save $15 million in cash payouts but still have $21 million on their cap sheet for 2019. I think that the long and the short of it is that AB costs the Pittsburgh Steelers $21-22 million in 2019 cap space no matter what.
    In fairness, I could be mistaken about a potential way a trade could alleviate some of that.

    According to what Teegre said a couple weeks ago, the teams in a trade can agree on how to split up the cap burden. I thought that meant current and future salary/bonuses only, and for signing bonuses that had already been paid out, you were stuck. He thought it included any part of the contract, including dead money. There have not really been any articles that address that in this case, so for all I know, maybe it is actually possible.

    I don't know how it would work, I assume a similar financial mechanism to the occasional cases where a team recovers part of a player's signing bonus (only in this case they're recovering it from the other team instead).

    But you would think if that was allowed, you would see a LOT of trades involving cap space changing hands, similar to the NBA - but you never hear about them. My guess is that the non-guaranteed contracts and prorated signing bonuses of the NFL create a pretty unique situation that makes those trades difficult, and I would suspect the league frowns upon the practice if not bans it entirely, because otherwise the spirit of the salary cap would be very difficult to enforce. But I would very much like to see an actual explanation of it.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    In fairness, I could be mistaken about a potential way a trade could alleviate some of that.

    According to what Teegre said a couple weeks ago, the teams in a trade can agree on how to split up the cap burden. I thought that meant current and future salary/bonuses only, and for signing bonuses that had already been paid out, you were stuck. He thought it included any part of the contract, including dead money. There have not really been any articles that address that in this case, so for all I know, maybe it is actually possible.

    I don't know how it would work, I assume a similar financial mechanism to the occasional cases where a team recovers part of a player's signing bonus (only in this case they're recovering it from the other team instead).

    But you would think if that was allowed, you would see a LOT of trades involving cap space changing hands, similar to the NBA - but you never hear about them. My guess is that the non-guaranteed contracts and prorated signing bonuses of the NFL create a pretty unique situation that makes those trades difficult, and I would suspect the league frowns upon the practice if not bans it entirely, because otherwise the spirit of the salary cap would be very difficult to enforce. But I would very much like to see an actual explanation of it.
    I think what you and Teegre are envisioning is not kosher in the NFL, but I don't know. This is the clearest explanation I have seen anywhere to date and I can not vouch for it's absolute correctness:

    "Now, should the Steelers choose scenario No. 5 above, they would have the previously noted dead money charge in 2019 of $21.12. If you do the math, that’s just $1.045 million less than his cap charge would be should they choose scenario No. 1, which is keeping him. When you factor in roster displacement cost of trading Brown, the Steelers really wouldn’t save very much 2019 salary cap space by going with scenario No. 5. They would, however, save $15.125 million in cash in 2019 along with the remaining $23.8 million Brown is scheduled to earn in 2020 and 2021 and in the process rid themselves of one very, very, very talented headcase."

    https://steelersdepot.com/2019/01/st...antonio-brown/

    So trading him in the narrow March window costs roughly $21 million in 2019 cap space but something like only $6 million in actual cash money. I think this is where the confusion comes in for everyone thinking and writing about this. There is the actual amount in currency that the 2019 Pittsburgh Steelers would owe Antonio Brown and then there is the amount of cap dollars the team would owe the NFL accounting rules.

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    Senior Member Array title="steelreserve has a reputation beyond repute"> steelreserve's Avatar

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I think what you and Teegre are envisioning is not kosher in the NFL, but I don't know. This is the clearest explanation I have seen anywhere to date and I can not vouch for it's absolute correctness:

    "Now, should the Steelers choose scenario No. 5 above, they would have the previously noted dead money charge in 2019 of $21.12. If you do the math, that’s just $1.045 million less than his cap charge would be should they choose scenario No. 1, which is keeping him. When you factor in roster displacement cost of trading Brown, the Steelers really wouldn’t save very much 2019 salary cap space by going with scenario No. 5. They would, however, save $15.125 million in cash in 2019 along with the remaining $23.8 million Brown is scheduled to earn in 2020 and 2021 and in the process rid themselves of one very, very, very talented headcase."

    https://steelersdepot.com/2019/01/st...antonio-brown/

    So trading him in the narrow March window costs roughly $21 million in 2019 cap space but something like only $6 million in actual cash money. I think this is where the confusion comes in for everyone thinking and writing about this. There is the actual amount in currency that the 2019 Pittsburgh Steelers would owe Antonio Brown and then there is the amount of cap dollars the team would owe the NFL accounting rules.
    Yeah, I think this is right. If other teams were allowed to absorb your dead money in trades, I think we would have those deals all the time and trades in general would be a lot more frequent. But we don't and they're not, so it's likely restricted.

    The articles are correct in that the total amount of money/cap space owed to Brown goes down if we trade him, but mostly that's because we don't have to pay him in future years. The math would be:

    Trade this year: $21M dead money this year, $0 next season

    Don't trade: $22M salary/bonus this year, $14M dead money next year if traded

    Basically all of these restructures wind up so that it's incredibly bad to cut the player with 3 or more years remaining on his contract, very painful to do it with 2 (usually $15M or so dead money) and only remotely logical before the last season.

    Really sucks for us even if there were no restructures - it would still mean like $12 million of his $19 million original signing bonus would be money we paid him for seasons he never played for us. What bullshit, all because he decides to throw a fit.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

  24. #24
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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Yeah, I think this is right. If other teams were allowed to absorb your dead money in trades, I think we would have those deals all the time and trades in general would be a lot more frequent. But we don't and they're not, so it's likely restricted.

    The articles are correct in that the total amount of money/cap space owed to Brown goes down if we trade him, but mostly that's because we don't have to pay him in future years. The math would be:

    Trade this year: $21M dead money this year, $0 next season

    Don't trade: $22M salary/bonus this year, $14M dead money next year if traded

    Basically all of these restructures wind up so that it's incredibly bad to cut the player with 3 or more years remaining on his contract, very painful to do it with 2 (usually $15M or so dead money) and only remotely logical before the last season.

    Really sucks for us even if there were no restructures - it would still mean like $12 million of his $19 million original signing bonus would be money we paid him for seasons he never played for us. What bullshit, all because he decides to throw a fit.
    That seems right. I really think that the NFL needs to incorporate NBA style trades of cap space into their next CBA. Of course, to do that, the league and union might have to work out a compromise on revenue and salary limits that allows for guaranteed contracts...

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    That seems right. I really think that the NFL needs to incorporate NBA style trades of cap space into their next CBA. Of course, to do that, the league and union might have to work out a compromise on revenue and salary limits that allows for guaranteed contracts...
    I can sense a strike or a lockout coming over that issue next time the CBA expires, probably a strike. It seems to have reached that critical tipping point with the players to where they're angry and trashing people publicly over it, and will go to the mat over it when the time comes.

    Of course the owners won't agree to it at first because there's too much uncertainty over injuries or quick skill declines, but fundamentally it makes no difference whether they're paying fully guaranteed contracts under the salary cap or non-guaranteed contracts under the same salary cap; they're still spending the exact same amount of money. There needs to be a way of compensating for the volatility, but the NBA has got a pretty good way of doing it already, where money and cap space can change hands more easily. Without that, you'd probably see a lot more incentive-laden contracts that would be essentially the same as non-guaranteed contracts ... which would be ok for a few years until the players got wise to it and started bitching about that instead.

    In any case, I am no fan of the current bullshit with prorating and dead money and constant restructures, and few opportunities for normal trades, and some random idiot always having $65 million in cap space, and stupid accounting rules heavily affecting the team in any given season ... all of which is needlessly overcomplicated and in the end, basically a lot of running around for nothing.

    Then again, it's the NFL, so why wouldn't they have a system that's needlessly complicated and overlawyered to death, and full of asinine rules with even more asinine twists on those rules. If there's one thing they know how to do, it's piling on the rules.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    I can sense a strike or a lockout coming over that issue next time the CBA expires, probably a strike. It seems to have reached that critical tipping point with the players to where they're angry and trashing people publicly over it, and will go to the mat over it when the time comes.

    Of course the owners won't agree to it at first because there's too much uncertainty over injuries or quick skill declines, but fundamentally it makes no difference whether they're paying fully guaranteed contracts under the salary cap or non-guaranteed contracts under the same salary cap; they're still spending the exact same amount of money. There needs to be a way of compensating for the volatility, but the NBA has got a pretty good way of doing it already, where money and cap space can change hands more easily. Without that, you'd probably see a lot more incentive-laden contracts that would be essentially the same as non-guaranteed contracts ... which would be ok for a few years until the players got wise to it and started bitching about that instead.

    In any case, I am no fan of the current bullshit with prorating and dead money and constant restructures, and few opportunities for normal trades, and some random idiot always having $65 million in cap space, and stupid accounting rules heavily affecting the team in any given season ... all of which is needlessly overcomplicated and in the end, basically a lot of running around for nothing.

    Then again, it's the NFL, so why wouldn't they have a system that's needlessly complicated and overlawyered to death, and full of asinine rules with even more asinine twists on those rules. If there's one thing they know how to do, it's piling on the rules.
    Think you nailed it!

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Why don't they just make it so if he gets traded he counts against the new team's cap? That would be fully in keeping with the spirit of a cap. Jerrah wouldn't be able to build a $300 million superteam with off season trades for high dollar players. Would also be a lot simpler - your payroll can't be more than X.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    OK............ here's a different take, by Rap:

    The Steelers would carry $21.1 million of Brown's salary in dead cap if they trade him before June 1, according to Over The Cap. Imagine eating up $21 million of a team's salary cap -- over 11 percent of the total cap space for the year -- to ensure Brown does not play for your team.

    After that date, the number drops significantly, to $7.04 million, making a deal much more possible. But it's Jan. 27. June 2 is a long way away, leaving plenty of time for fences to be mended and healing to happen.
    If Rap is right, this thing could play out a very long time...............

    - - - Updated - - -

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001013652/article/antonio-brown-hasnt-closed-door-on-return-to-steelers

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    Once again, Rappaport has it only part right.

    There would be a $14 million cap charge for deferred money in 2020.

    There is no way to avoid the 21 million dollars going on the cap sheet at some point. Either all at once or spread over multiple years. Why Fowler and Rappaport continue to fail to clearly communicate this is hard to understand.

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    Re: Could Someone Please Address the Cap Numbers Re AB??

    I’m not as convinced about he’s right and wrong as you are mojouw.

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