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Thread: DIVISIONAL ROUND

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND

    Couple of things. Careful of confirmation bias here.

    Saints defense may be related to coaching, or it may be related to finally "hitting" on high end talent on that side of the ball. Cam Jordan, Lattimore, Vonn Bell, Apple (has played closer to his draft status since coming over) and a smattering of others have turned into the playmakers they were drafted to be. Might be coaching or might just be playing 3/4 of Ohio State's secondary and these guys all work well together?

    The running the ball thing. It comes back to the lack of play action in the Steelers offense more than balance. Rams, Chiefs, and Eagles need to consistently at least attempt to run because their passing attack is based on RPO's and play-action. So the rushing attempts are "baked in" and come regardless. The Patriots ran the ball because the Chargers forgot to pack their big-boy pants and got blown of the line of scrimmage from the jump. A great deal of some of the rushing attempts also came because one team was beating the snot out of the other.

    When the Steelers were not trailing or only up one score, their offense was far more balanced. But once Conner got injured and/or they were coughing up leads or getting in dogfights with crappy teams, balance went out the window. With the offensive personnell the Steelers have, I would pass the ball to get a lead and run to preserve it as well.

    The funny thing is that much of the conversation we have as fans about running and rushing attempts is purely results oriented. When the main RB has a ton of attempts/touches, people worry about too much of a good thing. Then the team loses a game or 7 with low rushing totals and people worry about not enough.

    Stop turning the ball over on offense and start getting the ball on defense and no one will talk about rushing attempts.

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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND




  3. #243
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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Couple of things. Careful of confirmation bias here.

    Saints defense may be related to coaching, or it may be related to finally "hitting" on high end talent on that side of the ball. Cam Jordan, Lattimore, Vonn Bell, Apple (has played closer to his draft status since coming over) and a smattering of others have turned into the playmakers they were drafted to be. Might be coaching or might just be playing 3/4 of Ohio State's secondary and these guys all work well together?

    The running the ball thing. It comes back to the lack of play action in the Steelers offense more than balance. Rams, Chiefs, and Eagles need to consistently at least attempt to run because their passing attack is based on RPO's and play-action. So the rushing attempts are "baked in" and come regardless. The Patriots ran the ball because the Chargers forgot to pack their big-boy pants and got blown of the line of scrimmage from the jump. A great deal of some of the rushing attempts also came because one team was beating the snot out of the other.

    When the Steelers were not trailing or only up one score, their offense was far more balanced. But once Conner got injured and/or they were coughing up leads or getting in dogfights with crappy teams, balance went out the window. With the offensive personnell the Steelers have, I would pass the ball to get a lead and run to preserve it as well.

    The funny thing is that much of the conversation we have as fans about running and rushing attempts is purely results oriented. When the main RB has a ton of attempts/touches, people worry about too much of a good thing. Then the team loses a game or 7 with low rushing totals and people worry about not enough.

    .
    Moj, I frequently comment during the games where I can see the flow of playcalling and lack of rushing attempts. I observe the game as I have the past 30 years and in order to relate to conversations here in this forum, I look at stats as that is what the majority of posters look to when engaging in conversation, as they want something concrete to prove them right.

    Its like Mayock says about the combine. "You look at the tape, develop opinion and if the numbers at the combine confirm the thought, then its good. If they don't , then you need to go back and look at the tape further".

    To my eye, the Steelers stopped using much of the run game and somewhat abandoned it with attempts, starting the week of the Jaguars game. They started then to put it in the air and avoid the run. Maybe I will take time to look back at the stats, but that is when they started on their way to being the #1 team in pass attempts and #30 in run attempts. All 4 teams still playing, have not abandoned the running game in their offenses and are multi-dimensional offenses playing winning football.

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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Moj, I frequently comment during the games where I can see the flow of playcalling and lack of rushing attempts. I observe the game as I have the past 30 years and in order to relate to conversations here in this forum, I look at stats as that is what the majority of posters look to when engaging in conversation, as they want something concrete to prove them right.

    Its like Mayock says about the combine. "You look at the tape, develop opinion and if the numbers at the combine confirm the thought, then its good. If they don't , then you need to go back and look at the tape further".

    To my eye, the Steelers stopped using much of the run game and somewhat abandoned it with attempts, starting the week of the Jaguars game. They started then to put it in the air and avoid the run. Maybe I will take time to look back at the stats, but that is when they started on their way to being the #1 team in pass attempts and #30 in run attempts. All 4 teams still playing, have not abandoned the running game in their offenses and are multi-dimensional offenses playing winning football.
    I actually don't disagree overall. I'm just not convinced balance is all that important. Moving the ball and scoring points is all I care about.

    For me, the total absence of play action and motion based setups is most concerning. They don't seem to be scheming guys open to the degree the other elite offenses are. The common factor for those offenses is motion and play action. I have no numbers and no data but I feel like the Steelers just aren't doing that.

    Is it a choice? Related to Conner's injury? Score? Or are they just figuring they are built to pass? I don't know but would be glad to hear anyone out.

    I suspect I've over reacted to the word "balance". Too often I see that and then a Target of x number of running plays and y nber of passing plays. That, to me, is too simplified. It's about making sure your run game and passing attack are unified enough to keep teams constantly off balance. I think tharay have been the downfall in 2018

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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I actually don't disagree overall. I'm just not convinced balance is all that important. Moving the ball and scoring points is all I care about.

    For me, the total absence of play action and motion based setups is most concerning. They don't seem to be scheming guys open to the degree the other elite offenses are. The common factor for those offenses is motion and play action. I have no numbers and no data but I feel like the Steelers just aren't doing that.

    Is it a choice? Related to Conner's injury? Score? Or are they just figuring they are built to pass? I don't know but would be glad to hear anyone out.

    I suspect I've over reacted to the word "balance". Too often I see that and then a Target of x number of running plays and y nber of passing plays. That, to me, is too simplified. It's about making sure your run game and passing attack are unified enough to keep teams constantly off balance. I think tharay have been the downfall in 2018
    Lack of play action I agree, but you would need to establish a run game in order for play action to work and the last half of the season the Steelers never tried to establish the run. We saw on the weekend those teams like NE that established a run and it made play action so much more potent. IMO, RPO game is a current buzzword and fad that doesn't fit what Ben has done his entire career, so I don't get too concerned with lack of RPO's.

    I also don't think anybody goes into a game with a set # of run plays, but I think as an OC that you go in with a mindset of either 1.Passing lots, 2. Running lots or 3. Establishing both parts of the offense. It became pretty apparent that the Steelers offense ignored the run game, which would not open up any play action pass game and removed any possibility of letting your 3 Pro Bowl O linemen establishing the run game with any form of physicality.

    Fans can point to the Head Coaches of the 4 remaining teams and think they are the reason for being in conference final games, but I don't think its that easy. Great players, great execution, excellent leadership and good playcalling by the OC and DC of those teams.

    If the Steelers didn't abandon the run game in the latter half of the season....they would have won the division.

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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND

    How many times have the Steelers used play-action in the last two seasons?




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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    How many times have the Steelers used play-action in the last two seasons?
    Steelers were last in play action % for the 2018 season at 12.1% - Rams were first with 34%

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/new...on-play-action

    This was written before the Denver game

    According to Pro Football Focus, no quarterback in the league who has started at least two games has used the play action less often than Ben Roethlisberger at 10.5 percent. And he’s lowest by a long shot, too – the second-lowest usage of play action among quarterbacks who have started at least five games this season used it at a rate of almost 50 percent more often (Matthew Stafford, 15.3 percent). For perspective, check out the (much-higher) percentages of play-action usage by some of these big-name quarterbacks: Jared Goff (37.4 percent), Patrick Mahomes (29.9 percent), Carson Wentz (29.2 percent), Cam Newton (28.2 percent), Tom Brady (27.1 percent) and Matt Ryan (26.6 percent).

    Why are the Steelers eschewing the play action? Maybe because Roethlisberger is one of only six among the 34 qualifying quarterbacks whose yards per attempt is worse after a play-action fake than when there’s no fake. Roethlisberger’s passer rating also is better without the play action (97.1) than with (94.9).

    https://triblive.com/sports/steelers...ay-action-fake

    This article addressed use of play action over the 2015-2017 seasons. Chart breaks down play action/no play action attempts for each QB during that period. Ben had Bell during that period so it would not appear the lack of a running game was the issue.

    11.9 percent of Roethlisberger’s pass attempts came on play action, which was the lowest rate within our sample.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/new...on-play-action

    But that is nothing new - this was written in the summer of 2014 with regard to 2013 stats

    Ben Roethlisberger used play action only 11.6% of his snaps, the lowest percentage in the league.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/new...us-play-action

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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Lack of play action I agree, but you would need to establish a run game in order for play action to work and the last half of the season the Steelers never tried to establish the run. We saw on the weekend those teams like NE that established a run and it made play action so much more potent. IMO, RPO game is a current buzzword and fad that doesn't fit what Ben has done his entire career, so I don't get too concerned with lack of RPO's.

    I also don't think anybody goes into a game with a set # of run plays, but I think as an OC that you go in with a mindset of either 1.Passing lots, 2. Running lots or 3. Establishing both parts of the offense. It became pretty apparent that the Steelers offense ignored the run game, which would not open up any play action pass game and removed any possibility of letting your 3 Pro Bowl O linemen establishing the run game with any form of physicality.

    Fans can point to the Head Coaches of the 4 remaining teams and think they are the reason for being in conference final games, but I don't think its that easy. Great players, great execution, excellent leadership and good playcalling by the OC and DC of those teams.

    If the Steelers didn't abandon the run game in the latter half of the season....they would have won the division.
    I dunno. I don't think it is that simple. I mean, I could argue that without Grimble's fumble in the Denver game and/or Juju's fumble in the Saints game the Steelers win the division.

    For the offense I find it most concerning that there often feels like little integration between the running and passing phases of the game. Teams like the Rams/Chiefs/Saints/Pats are linking those two together in innovative ways with motion, play-action, and RPOs (I think those are here to stay). This leads to two things -- WR that are much more open and bigger running lanes -- when it all works. I feel like the Steelers put up massive offensive #'s but they had to try hard to do it because they were not using many of the innovative concepts occurring all around them.

    That is my frustration with the offense more than any ratio between passing and running.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I dunno. I don't think it is that simple. I mean, I could argue that without Grimble's fumble in the Denver game and/or Juju's fumble in the Saints game the Steelers win the division.

    For the offense I find it most concerning that there often feels like little integration between the running and passing phases of the game. Teams like the Rams/Chiefs/Saints/Pats are linking those two together in innovative ways with motion, play-action, and RPOs (I think those are here to stay). This leads to two things -- WR that are much more open and bigger running lanes -- when it all works. I feel like the Steelers put up massive offensive #'s but they had to try hard to do it because they were not using many of the innovative concepts occurring all around them.

    That is my frustration with the offense more than any ratio between passing and running.
    I'm not looking at single plays or instances in time. I'm talking about foundations of success. It's like saying I can become financially independent if I just win a lottery, vs. I can become financially independent by becoming educated, earning a good living and investing wisely.

    IMO, your frustration with the offense is that they haven't jumped onto some form of perceived revolutionary new way of looking at things and running an offense.

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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I'm not looking at single plays or instances in time. I'm talking about foundations of success. It's like saying I can become financially independent if I just win a lottery, vs. I can become financially independent by becoming educated, earning a good living and investing wisely.

    IMO, your frustration with the offense is that they haven't jumped onto some form of perceived revolutionary new way of looking at things and running an offense.
    They may have looked at it but if someone does not want to learn a new Rosetta Stone it is not going to be implemented.

    The Steelers deserve credit for the significant upgrade in red zone performance this season.

    But, as indicated by the stats that consistently have the Steelers with the lowest % of play action passes over the past half dozen seasons with and without an All Pro running back, I question how much change can occur pending a change at QB, assuming the departure of AB does not require the playbook to be torn up with the concurrence of the QB.

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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I'm not looking at single plays or instances in time. I'm talking about foundations of success. It's like saying I can become financially independent if I just win a lottery, vs. I can become financially independent by becoming educated, earning a good living and investing wisely.

    IMO, your frustration with the offense is that they haven't jumped onto some form of perceived revolutionary new way of looking at things and running an offense.
    I don't care what methods they use to run their offense. What I do care about are two things:

    1. They bogged down in the second half of games. Why? Were they repeating themselves and tipping their tendencies to the defense during the course of a game? Fichtner did run a ton of the same stuff week to week.
    2. The passing game and running game seemed a bit divorced from one another. Rarely do I remember a play where something they ran earlier, say a run, set-up a different play, say a pass, from the same formation/alignment. Interestingly, they did do the one thing to set up the other really well out of the passing game. I just wish they could merge the two elements of offense better.

    Other factors in all of this:

    1. What was the impact of Feiler playing RT? He is clearly worse than a healthy Gilbert. What impact did that have on play calling?
    2. What impact did Samuels not being ready at the early part of the season and Conner's injury at the latter part of the season have to do with # of rushing attempts? Some? None?
    3. Why is the OL really good at pass blocking, mostly great when run blocking on the move, but not at their best when drive blocking guys straight ahead in the run game?

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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I actually don't disagree overall. I'm just not convinced balance is all that important. Moving the ball and scoring points is all I care about.

    For me, the total absence of play action and motion based setups is most concerning. They don't seem to be scheming guys open to the degree the other elite offenses are. The common factor for those offenses is motion and play action. I have no numbers and no data but I feel like the Steelers just aren't doing that.

    Is it a choice? Related to Conner's injury? Score? Or are they just figuring they are built to pass? I don't know but would be glad to hear anyone out.

    I suspect I've over reacted to the word "balance". Too often I see that and then a Target of x number of running plays and y nber of passing plays. That, to me, is too simplified. It's about making sure your run game and passing attack are unified enough to keep teams constantly off balance. I think tharay have been the downfall in 2018
    I definitely do not see them scheming guys open. Most big plays are break downs , too many times our "great" WRs are covered up because the defense had no trouble diagnosing what we were doing

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    Re: DIVISIONAL ROUND

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I'm not looking at single plays or instances in time. I'm talking about foundations of success. It's like saying I can become financially independent if I just win a lottery, vs. I can become financially independent by becoming educated, earning a good living and investing wisely.

    IMO, your frustration with the offense is that they haven't jumped onto some form of perceived revolutionary new way of looking at things and running an offense.
    Steelers offense way too often gets by , by winning the lottery

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