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Thread: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by ETL View Post
    So then what is the definition of a “natural” position ?
    Not sure. I guess the guy that wrote the article must have some kind of a definition of "natural" position. Below is his bio and with that kind of background and access to a keyboard, it must be as accurate as Wikipedia.

    Brian is originally from Johnstown, Pa and currently lives in Wheatfield, Indiana. He is a Steelworker at ArcelorMittal USA and is owner of Pittsburgh Sports Zone. Follow Brian on Twitter @Brian__HarkerSW

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I'm still not sure what you are saying other than "Don't pay Bud Dupree another nickel come hell or high water."

    Where are all these players that you argue exist everywhere that are disruptive 3-4 OLBs? I mean these guys don't exactly grow on trees. That is why they cost so darn much in FA, Chickillo still has a job (I mean we both just argued he was below average), and the Steelers draft 1-2 every year.

    I'm not arguing that effective / disruptive OLBs exist everywhere. I'm arguing that Dupree is NOT very effective or disruptive, and that those players exist everywhere. Mediocre players do grow on trees, and that's what we've got. So better to pay a little for one, than a lot for the one who we happen to have right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    If they were so easy to find, wouldn't ideally Dupree be at least in a rotation and Chickilo off the roster? At the very least you would assume they would've went in to the regular season more than 3 deep at the position.
    I think a lot of the problem is that we are just bad at finding and developing OLBs. Kind of like OL before Munchak, the high draft picks sort of muddle along with the talent they were drafted with - which is either enough to make it in the league or it isn't - and the middle and low round picks either become the Ryan Mundy of their position or never advance past special teams. Whereas with decent player development, the high picks mostly become starters and the middle picks become depth players who are effective.

    The fact that we have more problems than usual at this position puts everything through the Jeff Reed lens of distortion, and we think effective replacements are scarce, and we think we're stuck but we're not. And a big difference here is that we're not even trying to replace someone who is productive. We're just trying to avoid finding someone who is extremely bad. We may even have that player on the roster (or on IR for the moment, at least). But we worry way too much.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    That is why I argue the 5th year option is only a bad thing if:

    1. No serious attempt is made to bring in competition.
    2. It leads to a multi-year extension with no team friendly escape clauses each year to guard against the "contract year" break-out phenomena.

    Ideally, Dupree never plays on the 5th year option. They offer him a 4 year deal with say like $12 million up front (buys out his $9 million option + an incentive to sign) and then years 2, 3, and 4 are team friendly one-year options where Dupree has a low cap hit and no dead money. That way if a draft pick or FA pick-up can beat him out, you aren't on the hook for anything that matters.
    Unfortunately, one of the likely side effects of the option is that we will also go with scenario #1. And then that will put us in scenario #2 because we failed to give ourselves other valid options. And then it leads to:

    3. No effort is made to address OLB because Dupree is "the guy," so we don't really draft or sign anyone of note until he has sucked for 2+ years on his new contract, which means we suffer sub-par play all the way through 4-5 years from now.
    4. Being a big contract, it is restructured almost immediately and we are locked into a Woodley situation with unbearable cap hits and dead money, only the player was never any good to deserve the contract in the first place.

    We narrowly avoided Woodley II with Jason Worilds; I really do not want us to go down that path again, but we seem hell-bent on doing it anyway.

    I like your ultimate way of solving the problem, and think it's quite reasonable, but just don't think it'll happen. I predicted as soon as they picked up the option that we were going to end up in another shitty situation where Dupree isn't really producing, but we talk ourselves into sticking with the option because he happens to be right in front of our faces and we're too hung up on the sunk cost of the #1 draft pick. I got a chorus of "No we won't! It's completely reversible!" and yet, here we are. Then I predicted that keeping the option would lead to #3 and #4, and it looks like we're still on track for that as well.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

  3. #33
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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    The notion that Dupree is more comfortable on the right side than left side, and Watt the opposite...is likely just like how a switch hitter is more comfortable in baseball batting from the right side than the left side. Maybe Dupree is more comfortable swatting down OT hands with his right hand and running the arc from right to left like a running track. Maybe Watt is more comfortable dipping his right shoulder under and ripping with his right arm than the left.

    Dupree is a pretty big guy and lots of times defenses want the stronger guy on the more often larger RT as opposed to LT. Maybe that is the deal with Bud. All the highlights from his Kentucky days show him lining up from the Left side, but as the Steelworker from Indiana wrote in the article, maybe that isn't "natural" for Dupree. Either way, Dupree isn't great, but he is good. I'm still trying to figure out if he is as good as Jasom Worlidong was in his 4th season.

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    I'm not arguing that effective / disruptive OLBs exist everywhere. I'm arguing that Dupree is NOT very effective or disruptive, and that those players exist everywhere. Mediocre players do grow on trees, and that's what we've got. So better to pay a little for one, than a lot for the one who we happen to have right now.




    I think a lot of the problem is that we are just bad at finding and developing OLBs. Kind of like OL before Munchak, the high draft picks sort of muddle along with the talent they were drafted with - which is either enough to make it in the league or it isn't - and the middle and low round picks either become the Ryan Mundy of their position or never advance past special teams. Whereas with decent player development, the high picks mostly become starters and the middle picks become depth players who are effective.

    The fact that we have more problems than usual at this position puts everything through the Jeff Reed lens of distortion, and we think effective replacements are scarce, and we think we're stuck but we're not. And a big difference here is that we're not even trying to replace someone who is productive. We're just trying to avoid finding someone who is extremely bad. We may even have that player on the roster (or on IR for the moment, at least). But we worry way too much.




    Unfortunately, one of the likely side effects of the option is that we will also go with scenario #1. And then that will put us in scenario #2 because we failed to give ourselves other valid options. And then it leads to:

    3. No effort is made to address OLB because Dupree is "the guy," so we don't really draft or sign anyone of note until he has sucked for 2+ years on his new contract, which means we suffer sub-par play all the way through 4-5 years from now.
    4. Being a big contract, it is restructured almost immediately and we are locked into a Woodley situation with unbearable cap hits and dead money, only the player was never any good to deserve the contract in the first place.

    We narrowly avoided Woodley II with Jason Worilds; I really do not want us to go down that path again, but we seem hell-bent on doing it anyway.

    I like your ultimate way of solving the problem, and think it's quite reasonable, but just don't think it'll happen. I predicted as soon as they picked up the option that we were going to end up in another shitty situation where Dupree isn't really producing, but we talk ourselves into sticking with the option because he happens to be right in front of our faces and we're too hung up on the sunk cost of the #1 draft pick. I got a chorus of "No we won't! It's completely reversible!" and yet, here we are. Then I predicted that keeping the option would lead to #3 and #4, and it looks like we're still on track for that as well.
    Okay. I think I get it now. I counter with the following:

    1. Effective to elite 3-4 OLBs are only obtained through the draft. The players that make it to FA represent the dregs of the position at worst and the Anthony Chickillo's of the world at best. If you are EXTREMELY lucky, some guy pops onto the market due to cap trouble or a scheme switch. But with the current catastrophic need for pass rushers around the league, I would argue the chances of this happening in 2019 are slim to none and slim is packing to leave town. No FA help is coming. Not that makes the defense better.

    2. In fact much of the 3-4 OLBs available on the open market in the last 2-3 off-seasons have been WORSE than Bud Dupree. I know, hard to believe, but it is true. This is the marketplace that forces teams to keep employing Sam Acho, Alex Okafor, and Barkevious Mingo. I mean let that sink in for a moment - the 2019 Steelers starter at OLB could be Barkevious Mingo. A dude whose next significant NFL play will be his first.

    3. You are outlining a nightmare scenario. In fact one that the local team in my area is going through with Nick Perry. Due to injury and being Nick Perry, he has never lived up to the large $$$ extension he signed after his rookie deal. But you know what? It hasn't really mattered. The Packers have annually brought in the types of FA "dart throws" we have been talking about and added players through the draft. And even though Perry is overpaid, other players in the position groups are underpaid and it all kinda works out. Maybe not ideally, but in a way that despite the defensive woes and poor record of the Packers, it isn't because they over-paid Nick Perry. So, I'm not certain the "nightmare" is all that bad -- unless they simply stop bringing in OLBs. And when have the Steelers ever done that? I've been seriously following the team for 20+ years now and I can not think of the last off-season cycle where they didn't try and add 2-3 legitimate OLB prospects to the off-season mix.

    4. The math of this all is just not as bad as you are making it sound. $9.2 million is the 5th year option. The cap is likely to be around 187-190 million. So $9 million is around 4.8% of that total. More than spare change, but less than serious money for an NFL franchise. In terms of "bad contracts" and dead money and all that. It happened ONCE in recent memory - Woodley. That's the only time. So why would the starting assumption be that the Steelers would step on the same landmine again? We just saw with the entire Leveon Bell situation that the Steelers don't change they way they do contracts for anyone. Ever. Dupree will eventually receive an offer at a # the team is comfortable with and all of the big $$$ will be in year one. Then it will function as a serious of easy out one year options for all intents and purposes. It gets more complicated because they tend to restructure these big deals almost annually, but the point is that the team can get out of them without crippling financial penalties. Haden's deal works this way. AB's deal is this way. Heyward and Tuitt's deals are this way and Shazier's almost certainly would've been. Heck, even VW's deal was along that structure just for less money.

    Very long story short -- everything you are outlining has basically never happened. So why would we have much of a basis for believing it would now? I think you raise some good points -- the need to never stop bringing in pass rush prospects. I totally agree. Overall, this whole thing is starting to remind me of when people absolutely flipped out over the $$$ amount for the Marcus Gilbert extension. Due to him being an injury risk and not all that great there were many calls for this contract being a burden. I mean that wasn't the case at all. Even if Gilbert got bumped from the starting line-up during this contract, the dollars would'nt have been that bad.

    We all need to remember that the few year period where restructures and extensions caught the Steelers and bit them in the ass are the ONLY years in the entire salary-cap era that the cap stayed flat. If the cap had risen in those seasons at even a fraction of it's general average increase, none of that difficult money stuff would've every happened. With ratings back-up, network profits stabilizing, etc etc -- the cap is back on that rocket-ship to the moon path until at least the next CBA.

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Sometimes, a team must not judge a player only on the sacks....Just to look how Jason Worilds did his sacks in 2013 ....

    Timestamp Players Beaten Speed Rush Bull Rush Other
    NYJ, Q2 10:41 Bilal Powell No No Strength against bad block
    NE, Q1 11:01 None No No No
    NE, Q3 03:15 Nate Solder Yes No No
    DET, Q3 11:13 None No No No
    BAL, Q1 09:54 Ray Rice No No Strength against bad block
    BAL, Q2 04:27 Michael Oher Yes No Dip
    MIA, Q2 13:18 None No No No
    GB, Q2 12:33 None No No No

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...eelers-in-2013


    They were classic dong sacks and I still do not understand why Colbert put the transition tag on him even if his sacks were very unimpressive ..... One of the worst moves that Colbert made....I can not defend this decisions.

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Okay. I think I get it now. I counter with the following:


    ... (etc) ...

    Look, I think a big part of our disagreement is just on how productive (or not) Dupree is. I really don't put him that much above the do-nothings you keep mentioning with "imagine if _______ was playing OLB for us." I wouldn't care if Barkevius Mingo was playing OLB. I don't think it would be too noticeable because Dupree just isn't good. I don't think his production is any better than what you should expect out of a third- or fourth-round pick as a rookie either.

    Basically, what are we afraid of "losing" by not having Dupree on the roster? There is not anything to be afraid of, because there's nothing there to lose. Like, if I'm imagining the nightmare contract scenario, you're imagining the nightmare talent scenario. I think that if we were unable to find someone playing at a similar level, we would have to be very unlucky or completely negligent.

    Even if we literally brought in nobody, and had to go with Chickillo and Olafasasdasfdsafasdfa at the position next year, the effect would not be like falling off a cliff, it'd be like falling off a couch, onto a pillow. You cannot fall off very much if you are not high up to begin with. I don't think Dupree has done a damn thing for us, other than occasionally show flashes that he might, if he improves a lot, and gets a lot more consistent, one day be average. That is worth zero to me.

    Marcus Gilbert was a great extension at a very reasonable price, the people who were mad about that were on crack. A year or two before, it would've been a terrible move, but he clearly improved leaps and bounds by the time we made that move. Way, way more than Dupree has ever shown.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    Sometimes, a team must not judge a player only on the sacks....Just to look how Jason Worilds did his sacks in 2013 ....

    Timestamp Players Beaten Speed Rush Bull Rush Other
    NYJ, Q2 10:41 Bilal Powell No No Strength against bad block
    NE, Q1 11:01 None No No No
    NE, Q3 03:15 Nate Solder Yes No No
    DET, Q3 11:13 None No No No
    BAL, Q1 09:54 Ray Rice No No Strength against bad block
    BAL, Q2 04:27 Michael Oher Yes No Dip
    MIA, Q2 13:18 None No No No
    GB, Q2 12:33 None No No No

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...eelers-in-2013


    They were classic dong sacks and I still do not understand why Colbert put the transition tag on him even if his sacks were very unimpressive ..... One of the worst moves that Colbert made....I can not defend this decisions.
    Best Dong Sack breakdown ever!


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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Look, I think a big part of our disagreement is just on how productive (or not) Dupree is. I really don't put him that much above the do-nothings you keep mentioning with "imagine if _______ was playing OLB for us." I wouldn't care if Barkevius Mingo was playing OLB. I don't think it would be too noticeable because Dupree just isn't good. I don't think his production is any better than what you should expect out of a third- or fourth-round pick as a rookie either.

    Basically, what are we afraid of "losing" by not having Dupree on the roster? There is not anything to be afraid of, because there's nothing there to lose. Like, if I'm imagining the nightmare contract scenario, you're imagining the nightmare talent scenario. I think that if we were unable to find someone playing at a similar level, we would have to be very unlucky or completely negligent.

    Even if we literally brought in nobody, and had to go with Chickillo and Olafasasdasfdsafasdfa at the position next year, the effect would not be like falling off a cliff, it'd be like falling off a couch, onto a pillow. You cannot fall off very much if you are not high up to begin with. I don't think Dupree has done a damn thing for us, other than occasionally show flashes that he might, if he improves a lot, and gets a lot more consistent, one day be average. That is worth zero to me.

    Marcus Gilbert was a great extension at a very reasonable price, the people who were mad about that were on crack. A year or two before, it would've been a terrible move, but he clearly improved leaps and bounds by the time we made that move. Way, way more than Dupree has ever shown.
    Yeah, you hit the nail on the head with the bolded bit. I just fundamentally disagree that the drop-off isn't far steeper than you imagine.

    Like I said, last year rough count looks like 30-40 OLBs that you could envision in a rush role hit the FA market -- ONE guy. One guy has had a 2018 impact that you are envisioning. Of the rookie OLB class from the past draft (excluding Chubb and Davenport), one guy is on pace for 6-8 sacks. One.

    So to use sacks as a crappy measure of defensive impact, that means in the 33 guys drafted at DE/OLB outside the first 15 picks and the roughly 30 guys that switched teams last year in FA, TWO players have been able to crack their teams starting line-ups and provide production at or above the "Dupree Line".

    Outside of the top half to third of the first round, you are going to have to let a pass rusher season for a bit before they really impact. That does not mean that you can not get a better player than Bud Dupree anywhere in the draft, you can. But not for 2019.

    I feel like we can adequately evaluate both the "talent" risk pool and the "contract" risk pool based on recent empirical data. The 5th year option is fairly low on the contract risk pool and NOT picking it up is pretty darn high on the talent risk pool. So looking at it solely from that angle, why the heck wouldn't a team look at doing an option year for one further off-season cycle to get a successor in place?

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    One of Dupree's problems is that we've had a lot of great linebacker in the last 25 years for the pass rush like Harrison, Woodley, Porter, Gildon, Greene and Lloyd, so that's why our standards are very high.

    Dupree is far from perfect, but 9.5 million is not much at his position in the today's market.

    And the steelers are not in a cap hell for 2019, so I expect Dupree to still be a steeler in 2019 .... if the steelers would not have wanted Dupree back for the 2019 season, the steelers would not have pîck his option last April.

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Yeah, you hit the nail on the head with the bolded bit. I just fundamentally disagree that the drop-off isn't far steeper than you imagine.

    Like I said, last year rough count looks like 30-40 OLBs that you could envision in a rush role hit the FA market -- ONE guy. One guy has had a 2018 impact that you are envisioning. Of the rookie OLB class from the past draft (excluding Chubb and Davenport), one guy is on pace for 6-8 sacks. One.

    So to use sacks as a crappy measure of defensive impact, that means in the 33 guys drafted at DE/OLB outside the first 15 picks and the roughly 30 guys that switched teams last year in FA, TWO players have been able to crack their teams starting line-ups and provide production at or above the "Dupree Line".

    Outside of the top half to third of the first round, you are going to have to let a pass rusher season for a bit before they really impact. That does not mean that you can not get a better player than Bud Dupree anywhere in the draft, you can. But not for 2019.

    I feel like we can adequately evaluate both the "talent" risk pool and the "contract" risk pool based on recent empirical data. The 5th year option is fairly low on the contract risk pool and NOT picking it up is pretty darn high on the talent risk pool. So looking at it solely from that angle, why the heck wouldn't a team look at doing an option year for one further off-season cycle to get a successor in place?

    Yeah, that's definitely the difference. If you want an "impact" player, then you are paying as much or more than Dupree will cost. If you are merely looking to hold serve, I think you can do that for a lot less than what Dupree will cost.

    I don't view him as an impact player and think we basically need a placeholder who just has to not be complete bottom-of-the-barrel trash. That is simple to replace, and probably what you will get in the draft unless you have bad luck.

    If you evaluate Dupree as having somewhat meaningful talent, then it is not as simple to replace, and not guaranteed in the draft.

    If you are looking to "improve" the position above and beyond what we have now, that will be expensive. But I don't especially think we need to do that; I would rather use the money or the high pick on someone who can do a reasonable Shazier imitation or at least cover the tight end, which will make our slow-fat ILB position better and thereby improve two positions at once. Improving the pass rush is not really an urgent need for me - Heyward, Tuitt and Watt do a good job, and because they fulfill that obligation, any +1 from Dupree to whoever is going to be effective enough to get by.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by Steeldude View Post
    What is the context of each sack or pressure?

    Weren't there people on here saying it's impossible for them to switch sides?

    So far Dupree hasn't shown much worthy of re-signing him.
    Bud is not very strong vs the run, but he's decent as a pass rusher. Chickillo is not starting material. The good news is Me'von Bell left us with 14.5 million added in cap space next season.

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Best Dong Sack breakdown ever!

    Any OLB named Jason is an automatic Dong Sack Machine.



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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    I would rather use the money or the high pick on someone who can do a reasonable Shazier imitation or at least cover the tight end, which will make our slow-fat ILB position better and thereby improve two positions at once.
    Josey Jewell, Denver.
    He's a rookie backup, but if you can swing the deal the kid plays at a Shazier level.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Josey Jewell, Denver.
    He's a rookie backup, but if you can swing the deal the kid plays at a Shazier level.


    I really like Jewell, but he is not a Shazier level player. Shazier is in the discussion as the greatest athlete to ever play LB and is a pro bowl level player with a knack for making big plays and turnovers. Jewel just hasn't done anything at the NFL level yet to make that claim.

    They are different types of players.

    Shazier is a freak athlete with sprinter speed in a 235 lb body. Incredibly explosive and athletic.

    Jewell has some athleticism, and he is extremely smart and instinctive. He is nowhere near the athlete Shazier is, but I believe he has a chance to be a good LB. Just a different type of LB.

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    I really like Jewell, but he is not a Shazier level player. Shazier is in the discussion as the greatest athlete to ever play LB and is a pro bowl level player with a knack for making big plays and turnovers. Jewel just hasn't done anything at the NFL level yet to make that claim.

    They are different types of players.

    Shazier is a freak athlete with sprinter speed in a 235 lb body. Incredibly explosive and athletic.

    Jewell has some athleticism, and he is extremely smart and instinctive. He is nowhere near the athlete Shazier is, but I believe he has a chance to be a good LB. Just a different type of LB.
    Jewell is basically Matakevich 2.0. Smart, instinctive, sure tackler in college, but both run a 4.82 40-yard dash and a 32" vertical and thus their lack of speed and athleticism make them both backup ILB and special teamers in the NFL.

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Steelers are already starting 2 slow run stuffers at ILB

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Jewell is basically Matakevich 2.0. Smart, instinctive, sure tackler in college, but both run a 4.82 40-yard dash and a 32" vertical and thus their lack of speed and athleticism make them both backup ILB and special teamers in the NFL.

    You are correct. Jewells combine numbers are very pedestrian.

    I think Jewell is a little more athletic, he's better against the pass, and he looks to operate a little better in space than Matakevich, but to mention him in the same breath with Shazier just isn't accurate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here are Josey Jewell's combine numbers: https://www.nfl.com/prospects/josey-...c-8a71e8b56260

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Yeah, I misspoke. Jewell plays at Shazier speed, not "level". Nobody plays at Shazier's level. If you want someone who can "do a reasonable Shazier imitation or at least cover the tight end", then Jewell's the guy you want. Bonus: He can play sideline to sideline and blow up outside runs/ screens in the backfield without over-pursuing.

    And everybody's quick to point out the combine numbers, but they're not indicative of in-game speed. Jewell has an incredibly high motor and flies around on the field. If you want to know what a player can or can't do, you have to watch him play ball, not look at combine numbers.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    The 200+ rushing and 90+ receiving that Barkley hung on Jewell and the Hawkeyes last season would seem to indicate Jewell isn't at an NFL level either sideline to sideline or in coverage.

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Yeah, I misspoke. Jewell plays at Shazier speed, not "level". Nobody plays at Shazier's level. If you want someone who can "do a reasonable Shazier imitation or at least cover the tight end", then Jewell's the guy you want. Bonus: He can play sideline to sideline and blow up outside runs/ screens in the backfield without over-pursuing.

    And everybody's quick to point out the combine numbers, but they're not indicative of in-game speed. Jewell has an incredibly high motor and flies around on the field. If you want to know what a player can or can't do, you have to watch him play ball, not look at combine numbers.


    I have watched him play a good number of games. That's why I say I like him more as a player than Matakevich even though their combine numbers are almost identical.

    He flies around the field, but flying is relative when the field is filled with players that aren't as fast across the board as they are in the NFL. I'd like to see what he could do in the right defense with enough talent around him. He's a player that is greater than the sum of his parts with all the intangibles and will he possesses. He just isn't an elite athlete and is limited because of that.

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    The voice of reason Array title="GoSlash27 has a reputation beyond repute"> GoSlash27's Avatar

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    I have watched him play a good number of games. That's why I say I like him more as a player than Matakevich even though their combine numbers are almost identical.

    He flies around the field, but flying is relative when the field is filled with players that aren't as fast across the board as they are in the NFL. I'd like to see what he could do in the right defense with enough talent around him. He's a player that is greater than the sum of his parts with all the intangibles and will he possesses. He just isn't an elite athlete and is limited because of that.
    Yeah, I'd agree with that... but what he lacks in raw athleticism he more than makes up for in football intelligence, technique, and situational awareness.

    The 200+ rushing and 90+ receiving that Barkley hung on Jewell and the Hawkeyes last season would seem to indicate Jewell isn't at an NFL level either sideline to sideline or in coverage.
    Mojo,
    This is a silly argument IMO. We got pasted by the Ravens back in week 4, so I guess (insert favorite Steeler here) isn't good enough to play in the NFL?
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Yeah, I'd agree with that... but what he lacks in raw athleticism he more than makes up for in football intelligence, technique, and situational awareness.


    Mojo,
    This is a silly argument IMO. We got pasted by the Ravens back in week 4, so I guess (insert favorite Steeler here) isn't good enough to play in the NFL?
    I just rewatched portions of that game earlier tonight and Jewell got beat to the edge repeatedly and couldn't stick with Barkley I'm coverage. Had a great college career but is not an NFL starter.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I just rewatched portions of that game earlier tonight and Jewell got beat to the edge repeatedly and couldn't stick with Barkley I'm coverage. Had a great college career but is not an NFL starter.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I think he would have been an upgrade over Dirty Red, but was picked in the 4th and the Steelers didn't have a pick then. Still, I agree that he doesn't have speed to the edge and would not be any better than VW or Bostic.

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I think he would have been an upgrade over Dirty Red, but was picked in the 4th and the Steelers didn't have a pick then. Still, I agree that he doesn't have speed to the edge and would not be any better than VW or Bostic.

    Agreed. Probably this.

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I think he would have been an upgrade over Dirty Red, but was picked in the 4th and the Steelers didn't have a pick then. Still, I agree that he doesn't have speed to the edge and would not be any better than VW or Bostic.
    Agreed. Just took a look at the posted highlights. Interesting that in almost every single one of the run stops or pass rushes Jewell is unblocked. An entire highlight reel where he defeats not a single block. I remember anothe slow college LB that had gaudy stats by being the designated playmaker on his defense. Is now out of the NFL I believe.

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    Senior Member Array title="BlackAndGold has a reputation beyond repute"> BlackAndGold's Avatar

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    After the Jags game, Watt now has 10 sacks on the season.
    1. Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia 2. Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia 3. Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan 3. ​Renardo Green, CB, FSU 4. Mo Kamara, OLB, Colorado State 6. Logan Lee, DT, Iowa 6.Khristian Boyd, NT, Northern Iowa

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAndGold View Post
    After the Jags game, Watt now has 10 sacks o the season.
    First OLB of the steelers to have 10 sacks in a season since Harrison and Woodley in 2010.

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Watt is being held, like around the throat often

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    Re: Bud Dupree and T.J. Watt making a huge impact on defens

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    First OLB of the steelers to have 10 sacks in a season since Harrison and Woodley in 2010.


    He's also starting to beat double teams. What a player.

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