Heyward and Tuitt adjusting to defensive line rotation

[AtlantaDan]

One possible reason we are not hearing as much about Heyward and Tuitt during games - they are not playing as much

The Steelers’ best sacker — All-Pro defensive end Cam Heyward, who tied for eighth in NFL with 12 sacks in 2017 — was on the sideline for 20 of the Ravens’ 76 offensive snaps. A week earlier in Tampa, Heyward did not play 19 of the Buccaneers’ 73 offensive plays. Was he gassed from the Florida humidity? Injured?

No, it’s just part of a rotation implemented by new defensive line coach Karl Dunbar... The big picture here is Dunbar is hoping to keep them as fresh as possible late in the season by rotating them on a semi-regular basis with Tyson Alualu, Dan McCullers and L.T. Walton....

Heyward has already sat out 60 of the 296 defensive snaps through four games. Tuitt has been on the sideline for 67 snaps. Neither player is injured.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201810050089

Good to know Heyward and Tuitt will be fresh for the big push in December to hit .500 for the season after the Steelers have long been out of the playoff race

Another breakthrough from the masterminds who thought they could skate by not meaningfully addressing the problems at ILB - more playing time for Dan McCullers has been what this defense has been missing for years

[Edman]

Keystone Cops.

[AtlantaDan]

Keystone Cops.

Yep - at least now I know what was going on when I was at the Chiefs game with D-linemen frantically running on and off the field while barely having time to get set before the snap

[Mojouw]

Playing 80-90% of the defensive snaps all year likely had nothing to do with getting blown off the ball in the playoffs.

This is what good teams do.


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[AtlantaDan]

Playing 80-90% of the defensive snaps all year likely had nothing to do with getting blown off the ball in the playoffs.

This is what good teams do.

Not certain if you are contending more rest for Heyward & Tuitt would have reduced the D-line getting dominated in the Jax playoff game

Tuitt being injured probably had more to do with his play in the Jax playoff game than his snap count in 2017

Good teams get the rotation coached up so the players are not running on and off the field before the snap because they do not appear to know if they should be on or off the field - and if you are going to rotate best to do it for a reason other than just doing it if the backup is a multi-year mediocrity like McCullers

[Fire Goodell]

Tuitt is going the way of Jason GilDong (underperforming ever since he got his big contract)

[Mojouw]

Not certain if you are contending more rest for Heyward & Tuitt would have reduced the D-line getting dominated in the Jax playoff game

Tuitt being injured probably had more to do with his play in the Jax playoff game than his snap count in 2017

Good teams get the rotation coached up so the players are not running on and off the field before the snap because they do not appear to know if they should be on or off the field - and if you are going to rotate best to do it for a reason other than just doing it if the backup is a multi-year mediocrity like McCullers

Last two seasons or so, both Heyward and Tuitt have specifically discussed how playing so many snaps sapped their legs by the latter portions of the season. I do not see what is unreasonable about hypothesizing that playing a ton of snaps by game 17+ of the season leads to tired legs that can get pushed around. It isn’t a revolutionary idea.

As to bad players getting the snaps, well Alualau, McCullers, and Walton have all earned playing time by performing well in limited opportunities or during the preseason.

The part I will certainly agree to is that the entire defense needs to know better who is going over the boards when so to speak.

[steelreserve]

Last two seasons or so, both Heyward and Tuitt have specifically discussed how playing so many snaps sapped their legs by the latter portions of the season. I do not see what is unreasonable about hypothesizing that playing a ton of snaps by game 17+ of the season leads to tired legs that can get pushed around. It isn’t a revolutionary idea.

As to bad players getting the snaps, well Alualau, McCullers, and Walton have all earned playing time by performing well in limited opportunities or during the preseason.

The part I will certainly agree to is that the entire defense needs to know better who is going over the boards when so to speak.

How is that even possible. Unless you are actually injured from those snaps, you are talking about perhaps 10-15 more minutes of actual physical exertion over the course of four months.

Within an individual game, the number of snaps can make you tired. Within a season, the number of snaps can make you beat-up, but not tired.

[DesertSteel]

How is that even possible.

Right! I don't know why players aren't two-way like the old days! They get a halftime to rest. Isn't that enough?!

[Mojouw]

How is that even possible. Unless you are actually injured from those snaps, you are talking about perhaps 10-15 more minutes of actual physical exertion over the course of four months.

Within an individual game, the number of snaps can make you tired. Within a season, the number of snaps can make you beat-up, but not tired.

Look. I'm just the messenger here. Heyward has specifically discussed how playing as many snaps per game as he does takes a toll over the course of a season. He has been talking about it since like 2015 or so. I seem to remember he has actively discussed how over the course of a season you lose a bit the more snaps you play. Former players also commonly talk about this.

Again, I think that a defensive line rotation is a good idea. maybe the team doesn't have the right players. maybe their coordination of it sucks. but the underlying idea is extremely sound.

[Fire Goodell]

Right! I don't know why players aren't two-way like the old days! They get a halftime to rest. Isn't that enough?!

Heck I always wondered that. I played WR/Safety in HS and special teams, I basically never came off the field, ever. Never got tired. Only time I got injured was in practice getting blidsided.

I know, I know, not the 'pro' level, but shouldn't elite athletes be in a lot better shape than average joes who played for fun? Not to mention we don't get 2 minute warnings and TV timeouts which meant less rest time.

[steelreserve]

Look. I'm just the messenger here. Heyward has specifically discussed how playing as many snaps per game as he does takes a toll over the course of a season. He has been talking about it since like 2015 or so. I seem to remember he has actively discussed how over the course of a season you lose a bit the more snaps you play. Former players also commonly talk about this.

Again, I think that a defensive line rotation is a good idea. maybe the team doesn't have the right players. maybe their coordination of it sucks. but the underlying idea is extremely sound.

Yeah, maybe I am just splitting hairs between "tired" and "physically worn down," but it's not like the end result is any different. The more you play, the more you are going to take a beating and of course it will catch up with you.

Our problem is that we kind of need Heyward and Tuitt on the field because the dropoff behind them is really noticeable. Sure, it's not as horrid as the Cam Thomas-McLendon-Walton rotation we had a few years ago, but not by a whole lot. Alualu is better than Thomas, but the other ones are literally the same players, and not really any better than they used to be.

Hargrave was really promising his first season, but has turned into the Invisible Man. What happened to him? He was kind of the key that was going to make the 3-man front work, as well as give a breather to Heyward and Tuitt while keeping someone competent on the field in their place. Do we need another starter-quality defensive tackle now?

[86WARD]

Playing 80-90% of the defensive snaps all year likely had nothing to do with getting blown off the ball in the playoffs.

This is what good teams do.


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Good teams also have quality depth. Look at the Eagles D-Line rotation...

[NCSteeler]

Duh

[BlackAndGold]

Seems to be their adjusting to getting their ass kicked every week.

Tuitt is basically stealing money like Woodley did. All that talent is being wasted.

[Born2Steel]

You rotate DL on possessions, not downs. Unless there is an injury DL play the series.

[pczach]

You rotate DL on possessions, not downs. Unless there is an injury DL play the series.

When I see DL players being rotated in during series, I always think to myself......how the hell are they giving these guys rest when they need to run 30 yards to get off or on to the field?

Some of these defenses have gotten so dependent on sub packages that they are wearing out players running them on/off the field as offenses run more fast-paced offenses that stress defenses and run more plays.

Somebody needs to come up with an innovative defense that changes the balance of power so offenses can't dictate everything.

[teegre]

You rotate DL on possessions, not downs. Unless there is an injury DL play the series.

btw: This is the ultimate “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” topic. For years, people have griped that Tomlin was playing Heyward (and Tuitt) too much. Then, when Tomlin plays them less, people are still griping.

SUMMATION:
I think that people simply like to gripe.

[AtlantaDan]

You rotate DL on possessions, not downs. Unless there is an injury DL play the series.

Was not working that way in the Chiefs game - more of a mix and match (or simply random chaos) system

But we are talking about a defense that is reinventing football with such schemes as ending up with Vince Williams isolated on a receiver split wide left (Mojouw previously linked to an excellent article on how the Chiefs toyed with Butler's defensive alignments), so rotating DL play to play obviously is part of the master plan rather than another indication Butler is in deep water over his head and sinking fast

SUMMATION:
I think that people simply like to gripe.

Respectfully disagree - IMO griping is when your team wins the game and someone complains about AB being targeted too much or the defense allowing too many conversions on third and long

Criticizing a defense that is in free fall is more along the line of pointing out, to quote Chuck Noll, that the Steelers "problems are great, and they are many"

To quote Coach Noll again, with regard to who on the 2018 Steelers defensive coaching staff and roster should move on to their life's work outside of football, "The problem isn't cutting, it's stopping."

[Hawkman]

:
SUMMATION:
I think that people simply like to gripe.

That’s sort of a “BINGO” moment.

[Mojouw]

btw: This is the ultimate “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” topic. For years, people have griped that Tomlin was playing Heyward (and Tuitt) too much. Then, when Tomlin plays them less, people are still griping.

SUMMATION:
I think that people simply like to gripe.

That’s sort of a “BINGO” moment.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

When I see DL players being rotated in during series, I always think to myself......how the hell are they giving these guys rest when they need to run 30 yards to get off or on to the field?

Some of these defenses have gotten so dependent on sub packages that they are wearing out players running them on/off the field as offenses run more fast-paced offenses that stress defenses and run more plays.

Somebody needs to come up with an innovative defense that changes the balance of power so offenses can't dictate everything.

Trying to push an offensive lineman against his will, is similar to pushing a weighted prowler sled in the amount of energy expended. After a D lineman does that 6 or 7 plays in a row, on a sustained drive, there is value in bringing in a fresh D-lineman IMO.

The jog off the field is substantially less strenuous than trying to bull rush an offensive lineman, from my experience.

[tube517]

When I see DL players being rotated in during series, I always think to myself......how the hell are they giving these guys rest when they need to run 30 yards to get off or on to the field?

Some of these defenses have gotten so dependent on sub packages that they are wearing out players running them on/off the field as offenses run more fast-paced offenses that stress defenses and run more plays.

Somebody needs to come up with an innovative defense that changes the balance of power so offenses can't dictate everything.

Didn't they used to roll Big Snack off the field and throw in Chris Hoke?

[pczach]

Trying to push an offensive lineman against his will, is similar to pushing a weighted prowler sled in the amount of energy expended. After a D lineman does that 6 or 7 plays in a row, on a sustained drive, there is value in bringing in a fresh D-lineman IMO.

The jog off the field is substantially less strenuous than trying to bull rush an offensive lineman, from my experience.

Yeah, I get that, but I'm not talking about a jog off the field. I'm talking about sprinting off or on the field.

It depends on how you do it. If you pull a guy off the field and give him 3-4 snaps off, there is definitely some good in it, and a player gets a second wind.

If you just pull a guy off the field for one play and make him run off the field, and then he's running back in the game for the next snap for the matchup, it can get silly pretty quickly. Also, many times with offenses running quick plays and hurry up, a player running onto the field often doesn't even get fully set or have the full defensive call.

My point is that IMO teams have gotten so dependent on sub packages and personnel groups that they outthink themselves sometimes and create their own issues and confusion, while not really resting starters all that much when they have to run full speed off the field at times to avoid too many men on the field penalties, or onto the field to get enough personnel on the field to run a play...and when they do they're late and out of position while his teammates are trying to get them lined up.

[Mojouw]

Yeah, I get that, but I'm not talking about a jog off the field. I'm talking about sprinting off or on the field.

It depends on how you do it. If you pull a guy off the field and give him 3-4 snaps off, there is definitely some good in it, and a player gets a second wind.

If you just pull a guy off the field for one play and make him run off the field, and then he's running back in the game for the next snap for the matchup, it can get silly pretty quickly. Also, many times with offenses running quick plays and hurry up, a player running onto the field often doesn't even get fully set or have the full defensive call.

My point is that IMO teams have gotten so dependent on sub packages and personnel groups that they outthink themselves sometimes and create their own issues and confusion, while not really resting starters all that much when they have to run full speed off the field at times to avoid too many men on the field penalties, or onto the field to get enough personnel on the field to run a play...and when they do they're late and out of position while his teammates are trying to get them lined up.

I know many of my posts make it seem like I'm on the other side of this but I get what your saying.

I agree in that defense is doing traditional things and offenses are on to next level stuff.

[teegre]

Respectfully disagree - IMO griping is when your team wins the game and someone complains about AB being targeted too much or the defense allowing too many conversions on third and long

Criticizing a defense that is in free fall is more along the line of pointing out, to quote Chuck Noll, that the Steelers "problems are great, and they are many"

To quote Coach Noll again, with regard to who on the 2018 Steelers defensive coaching staff and roster should move on to their life's work outside of football, "The problem isn't cutting, it's stopping."

I see your point... which is valid.

Here’s an analogy.
There is a raging fire. The fire department shows up and uses the 30 foot hoses (water). The peanut gallery yells at the firemen that they should be using the 50 foot hoses (to get closer)... to which the peanut gallery screams that the firemen should switch back to the 30 foot hoses.

Meanwhile, there is only one hydrant (when there should be three or four).

Of course, if there were more hydrants, the peanut gallery would complain about the hydrants being an eye sore... although, they’d no longer be dealing with a fire.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I see your point... which is valid.

Here’s an analogy.
There is a raging fire. The fire department shows up and uses the 30 foot hoses (water). The peanut gallery yells at the firemen that they should be using the 50 foot hoses (to get closer)... to which the peanut gallery screams that the firemen should switch back to the 30 foot hoses.

Meanwhile, there is only one hydrant (when there should be three or four).

Of course, if there were more hydrants, the peanut gallery would complain about the hydrants being an eye sore... although, they’d no longer be dealing with a fire.

Summation: people love to complain about things, no matter the situation. (ie, complaining about weather..summer was too hot, winter was too cold)

[teegre]

Summation: people love to complain about things, no matter the situation. (ie, complaining about weather..summer was too hot, winter was too cold)

...especially the bolded part.

[Born2Steel]

Trying to push an offensive lineman against his will, is similar to pushing a weighted prowler sled in the amount of energy expended. After a D lineman does that 6 or 7 plays in a row, on a sustained drive, there is value in bringing in a fresh D-lineman IMO.

The jog off the field is substantially less strenuous than trying to bull rush an offensive lineman, from my experience.

True there is a measurable difference between rushing the OL and running to the sidelines in terms of difficulty. There is also a measure of timing and rhythm each defensive lineman gets when the ball snaps. Those OL are fighting and pushing just as hard as the DL each play. In line play it's not about winning each down, it's about setting up the other guy for a winning move for a big play. If you CAN beat the guy every down that's great, but not usual. Most plays the OL is only trying to steer a DL a foot to one direction to make a running hole or a passing lane. They have 'give aways' like in poker in how they do this. The DL learn these 'give aways' and how to exploit them through the course of the game.

I know you know all or most of this already. I'm only posting it to say it makes no sense to remove DL multiple times on a single series. This type of rotation kills any rhythm and defeats learning the OL 'give aways', plus it gives the OL a rest as well. I have not paid attention to the DL much this season because I have been watching the LBs much more closely. So if this is actually what this defense is doing I am even more disappointed now.

[86WARD]

If you have talent depth there is no downside to a DL Rotation. None at all.