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Thread: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

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    Senior Member Array title="saturdaysarebetter will become famous soon enough">

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    Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    As you can see by the primary players on their rosters that contributed those seasons, each team had a Hall-of-Fame head coach, quarterback and running back and both lineups were loaded with All-Pros.

    Miami ’72 & ’73 Dallas ’77 & ‘78

    Coach Don Shula Tom Landry
    QB Bob Griese Roger Staubach
    QB Earl Morrall Danny White
    RB Larry Csonka Tony Dorsett
    RB Mercury Morris Robert Newhouse
    RB Jim Kiick Preston Pearson
    WR Paul Warfield Tony Hill
    WR Howard Twilley Drew Pearson
    WR Marlin Briscoe Butch Johnson
    WR Golden Richards, Dallas
    TE Marv Fleming Billy Joe Dupree
    TE Jim Mandich Jay Saldi
    OG Larry Little Herbert Scott
    OG Bob Kuechenberg Tom Rafferty
    OC Jim Langer John Fitzgerald
    OT Norm Evans Rayfield Wright
    OT Doug Crusan Ralph Neely
    OT Wayne Moore Pat Donovan
    OT Andy Frederick, Dallas

    DT Manny Fernandez Randy White
    DT Bob Heinz Jethro Pugh
    DE Vern Den Herder Ed Too Tall Jones
    DE Bill Stanfill Harvey Martin
    DE Larry Cole, Dallas
    LB Nick Buoniconti Hollywood Henderson
    LB Bob Mathewson Bob Bruenig
    LB Mike Kolen Mike Hegman
    LB Doug Swift D.D. Lewis
    CB Tim Foley Mel Renfro
    CB Curtis Johnson Mark Washington
    CB Lloyd Mumphord Benny Barnes
    S Jake Scott Charlie Waters
    S Dick Anderson Cliff Harris

    K Garo Yepremian Efren Herrera
    P Larry Seiple Danny White


    Miami's playoff games: Dallas' playoff games:

    20-14 over Cleveland 37-7 over Chicago
    21-17 over Pittsburgh 23-6 over Minnesota
    14-7 over Washington 27-10 over Denver
    34-16 over Cincinnati 27-20 over Atlanta
    27-10 over Oakland 28-0 over LA Rams
    24-7 over Minnesota 35-31 loss to Pittsburgh

    Thoughts?

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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    72 and 73 Dolphins. Winning the Super Bowl is everything. Miami got the job done both times, Dallas got the job done only one time. Plus Miami lost two games in 72 & 73 combined, Dallas lost 4 games in the regular season in 78. A more interesting comparison would be other 2 year spans of teams who won a Super Bowl and then lost the next year (82-82 Redskins, 96-97 Packers, 13-14 Bitch Pigeons)

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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    Agreed winning back to back Lombardis with only 2 losses in 2 seasons is superior to winning one and making it back to the Super Bowl the next year

    To try to do it with data, FiveThirtyEight has its Elo rating system, which works as follows

    How do you rate an NFL team across decades of play? One method is Elo, a simple measure of strength based on game-by-game results. We calculated Elo ratings for every game in league history — over 30,000 ratings in total.

    Elo is set so that an average NFL team has a rating of about 1500, although the league average can be slightly higher or lower, depending on how recently the league has expanded — expansion teams start with a rating of 1300. You can read more about our methodology here; all game results are from Pro-Football-Reference.com.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ry-of-the-nfl/

    1972 Dolphins finished with Elo rating of 1776 after their Super Bowl victory over the Redskins and the 1973 Dolphins finished with an Elo rating of 1783 after beating the Vikings in SB VIII

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...f-the-nfl/#mia

    1977 Cowboys peaked with Elo rating of 1753 after the Super Bowl blowout of Denver - 1978 Cowboys peaked at Elo 1763 after beating Rams in NFC championship before dropping to 1746 rating after SB XIII loss to Steelers

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...f-the-nfl/#dal

    So the FiveThirtyEight methodology also gives the edge to the 72-73 Dolphins

    FWIW the peak Elo rating for a Steelers team is 1777 for the 75 team after the SB X win over the Cowboys. For me that was the best of the 70s champs - defense and Franco were at their peak while big play passing game started to step up. 76 team is generally regarded as the most talented and presumably would have exceeded the 1975 Steelers if it had won the Super Bowl after it peaked with an Elo rating of 1764 after the blowout of the Colts in the 1976 playoffs

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...f-the-nfl/#pit
    Thanks for the memories

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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    2003 & 2004 Patriots

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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    Agreed winning back to back Lombardis with only 2 losses in 2 seasons is superior to winning one and making it back to the Super Bowl the next year

    To try to do it with data, FiveThirtyEight has its Elo rating system, which works as follows

    How do you rate an NFL team across decades of play? One method is Elo, a simple measure of strength based on game-by-game results. We calculated Elo ratings for every game in league history — over 30,000 ratings in total.

    Elo is set so that an average NFL team has a rating of about 1500, although the league average can be slightly higher or lower, depending on how recently the league has expanded — expansion teams start with a rating of 1300. You can read more about our methodology here; all game results are from Pro-Football-Reference.com.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ry-of-the-nfl/

    1972 Dolphins finished with Elo rating of 1776 after their Super Bowl victory over the Redskins and the 1973 Dolphins finished with an Elo rating of 1783 after beating the Vikings in SB VIII

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...f-the-nfl/#mia

    1977 Cowboys peaked with Elo rating of 1753 after the Super Bowl blowout of Denver - 1978 Cowboys peaked at Elo 1763 after beating Rams in NFC championship before dropping to 1746 rating after SB XIII loss to Steelers

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...f-the-nfl/#dal

    So the FiveThirtyEight methodology also gives the edge to the 72-73 Dolphins

    FWIW the peak Elo rating for a Steelers team is 1777 for the 75 team after the SB X win over the Cowboys. For me that was the best of the 70s champs - defense and Franco were at their peak while big play passing game started to step up. 76 team is generally regarded as the most talented and presumably would have exceeded the 1975 Steelers if it had won the Super Bowl after it peaked with an Elo rating of 1764 after the blowout of the Colts in the 1976 playoffs

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...f-the-nfl/#pit
    So amidst all that data and numerology, you think Lloyd Mumphord and Curtis Johnson could cover Drew Pearson, Tony Hill, Butch Johnson and Golden Richards? Miami's linebackers could contain Tony Dorsett's speed to the outside?

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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    Quote Originally Posted by saturdaysarebetter View Post
    So amidst all that data and numerology, you think Lloyd Mumphord and Curtis Johnson could cover Drew Pearson, Tony Hill, Butch Johnson and Golden Richards? Miami's linebackers could contain Tony Dorsett's speed to the outside?
    I just gave you the data

    But having been around at the time, the game did not change that quickly from 1972-73 when the Dolphins ruled until 1977-78 - we are not talking about the 1962 Packers playing the 2007 Patriots

    And to the extent the game did change during that time, the Cowboys did not take advantage of the rules changes as much as the 1978 Steelers did when the new rules were implemented. So it is not as if the Dolphins' 53 defense, which relied on scheme as well as talent, would have been outmoded against the 1977-78 Cowboys offense (as opposed to Landry's Flex defense, which was designed to stop the Lombardi sweep, that Bradshaw shredded by throwing against in SB XIII since the pass rush out of the flex by the defensive end was nil).

    Bottom line is Dallas had the good fortune to play in the NFC in the 1970s when the AFC was clearly the superior conference and its record was inflated accordingly.

    1977 Cowboys were defeated convincingly by a Steelers team that was the worst of the 1974-1979 teams and had the good fortune to play Denver rather than the Raiders or Steelers in the Super Bowl that year. Then they did not even get home field advantage through the 1978 playoffs - we are not talking about the 1984 or 1989 49ers here.

    And with regard to how could they possibly handle Tony Dorsett, when OJ Simpson (who had some speed of his own) rushed for 2000 yards in 1973 he rushed for only 175 in his 2 games against Miami

    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...7310210mia.htm
    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...7311180buf.htm


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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    2003 & 2004 Patriots

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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    I just gave you the data

    But having been around at the time, the game did not change that quickly from 1972-73 when the Dolphins ruled until 1977-78 - we are not talking about the 1962 Packers playing the 2007 Patriots

    And to the extent the game did change during that time, the Cowboys did not take advantage of the rules changes as much as the 1978 Steelers did when the new rules were implemented. So it is not as if the Dolphins' 53 defense, which relied on scheme as well as talent, would have been outmoded against the 1977-78 Cowboys offense (as opposed to Landry's Flex defense, which was designed to stop the Lombardi sweep, that Bradshaw shredded by throwing against in SB XIII since the pass rush out of the flex by the defensive end was nil).

    Bottom line is Dallas had the good fortune to play in the NFC in the 1970s when the AFC was clearly the superior conference and its record was inflated accordingly.

    1977 Cowboys were defeated convincingly by a Steelers team that was the worst of the 1974-1979 teams and had the good fortune to play Denver rather than the Raiders or Steelers in the Super Bowl that year. Then they did not even get home field advantage through the 1978 playoffs - we are not talking about the 1984 or 1989 49ers here.

    And with regard to how could they possibly handle Tony Dorsett, when OJ Simpson (who had some speed of his own) rushed for 2000 yards in 1973 he rushed for only 175 in his 2 games against Miami

    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...7310210mia.htm
    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...7311180buf.htm

    Excellent points, however, the Dolphins needn't worry about the Bills passing attack with Joe Ferguson and could load up the box to stop Simpson. Dallas had a far more balanced offense and their passing attack didn't allow for teams to load the box to stop the run.

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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    Quote Originally Posted by saturdaysarebetter View Post
    So amidst all that data and numerology, you think Lloyd Mumphord and Curtis Johnson could cover Drew Pearson, Tony Hill, Butch Johnson and Golden Richards? Miami's linebackers could contain Tony Dorsett's speed to the outside?
    How did New England with the highest peak ELO of all-time with 1849 (indicating they were the greatest team ever) not win their Super Bowl against the N.Y. Giants?

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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    Patriots cheated. Cheaters are not great! They don't belong in this conversation. Belichick doesn't belong in greatest coach debate, Brady doesn't belong in greatest QB debate. Don't get it how everyone forget what they have done and I'm sure are doing for almost two decades! Just don't get it.

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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    Quote Originally Posted by saturdaysarebetter View Post
    So amidst all that data and numerology, you think Lloyd Mumphord and Curtis Johnson could cover Drew Pearson, Tony Hill, Butch Johnson and Golden Richards? Miami's linebackers could contain Tony Dorsett's speed to the outside?
    The Dolphins and Cowboys met both in 1973 and 1978. Dolphins won both games surrendering a combined 23 points in those meetings. In 78, a less effective Dolphins defense held the 78 Cowboys offense to only 16 points, so I do think the 72-73 Dolphins defense could stop that Cowboys offense

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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    The Dolphins and Cowboys met both in 1973 and 1978. Dolphins won both games surrendering a combined 23 points in those meetings. In 78, a less effective Dolphins defense held the 78 Cowboys offense to only 16 points, so I do think the 72-73 Dolphins defense could stop that Cowboys offense
    How about that. I didn't know that and it's hard to dispute that point. I wonder if I can find that game on Youtube. Thanks for the info.

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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    Quote Originally Posted by saturdaysarebetter View Post
    How did New England with the highest peak ELO of all-time with 1849 (indicating they were the greatest team ever) not win their Super Bowl against the N.Y. Giants?
    Everyone who took the Patriots and gave the 12 points was asking the same question

    While there is a 100% probability the Steelers will beat the best high school team in western Pennsylvania (although against Butler's defense that high school team is probably good to score three touchdowns), you are not going to find those absolutes in the NFL

    FiveThirtyEight discusses how it predicts the probability of a team winning a NFL matchup

    For any game between two teams (A and B) with certain pregame Elo ratings, the odds of Team A winning are:

    Pr(A)=110EloDiff400+1
    ELODIFF is Team A’s rating minus Team B’s rating, plus or minus a home-field adjustment of 65 points, depending on who was at home.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/methodol...dictions-work/

    For example, FiveThirtyEight calculates the Steelers have a 63% probability of beating the Ravens this week or roughly a 2 out of 3 chance - they are likely to win but not 100% guaranteed to do so

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ictions/games/


    For the first Giants/Pats Super Bowl the Pats Elo rating going into the game was 1849 and the Giants was 1602

    Using the formula above (I used an online Elo calculator) the Pats had a 70.1% probability of winning - more significantly they had a 29.9% probability of losing

    They lost

    In a one and done tournament (as opposed to the seven game series model of the NBA, NHL, and NBA) there is a greater chance for an upset (see, e.g., 1985 NCAA tournament where Villanova beat Georgetown) than the team less likely to win winning a 4 out of 7 series - that one win occurred when the Pats lost to the Giants does not indicate FiveThirtyEight got it wrong on its ratings or that the Pats over the course of the season did not establish themselves to be markedly superior to the Giants

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    The Dolphins and Cowboys met both in 1973 and 1978. Dolphins won both games surrendering a combined 23 points in those meetings. In 78, a less effective Dolphins defense held the 78 Cowboys offense to only 16 points, so I do think the 72-73 Dolphins defense could stop that Cowboys offense
    Thanks for checking actual game results

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    Re: Which team was better: ’72 & ’73 Miami or ’77 & ’78 Dallas?

    Still funny that the cowboys blame Jackie Smith for their defeat against the steelers in 1978!

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