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Thread: The Keith Butler Thread

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    The part I was answering is why I prefer an NFL DC over a college coach. I think you have fundamentally better defenses with guys that know how to scheme for the NFL. The example of Dupree and Watt was in answer to a different post. It is my opinion the Steelers do not have the personnel to run the scheme. I don't think Butler is a bad DC, more that he has to 'dumb down' the scheme to fit the players we have. We have players making plays with consistency on this defense. Why are the others struggling is the question. I don't think it is a scheme issue this season so much as the scheme has to fit the personnel that can run it. IMO, our defensive woes comes down to players not making plays.
    For me it is all related. Butler needs to learn how to coach better or come up with a different scheme.

    For years we were all told that only a vanishingly small minority of players can handle the demands of being an NFL QB and there has never been and will never be enough of them to go around. Everyone accepted that. Over the last 2-5 years we have seen an increasing number of offensive coaches refuse to accept that as an answer. They have changed what NFL offenses do at a fundamental level. This has shifted the demands on the QB position and expanded the pool of acceptable QBs.

    There has been a similar overhaul with offensive lineman, as colleges were simply not producing the traditional types.

    Butler and most NFL defensive coordinators are doing the same old stuff. And they are mostly helpless bystanders as NFL offenses spread them out horizontally and vertically at the same time and hammer away at any weakness until something breaks. The only answer anyone has is "pass rush". That is a component of an answer but far from a total answer.

    The same types of innovative and adaptive thinking that allow an increasing number of players to flourish at the QB position needs to be brought to bear on the defensive side of the ball. And I simply do not see it from Butler. The only way his defense succeeds is to get enough pressure to throw the offense off balance or to have a better collection of athletes on his side of the ball. But schematically there seems to be very little being done to help those things happen.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Yep. I get it. I just don't think you have the same success trying to reinvent how to play defense as the OCs have had. It works for offense.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Yep. I get it. I just don't think you have the same success trying to reinvent how to play defense as the OCs have had. It works for offense.
    So how would you explain the rise of the 3-4 zone blitz, the 46, the Tampa 2, etc? I mean those were innovations, many based on existing things, but you are not arguing that defenses are done developing?

    Like whatever was thought of in 2018 is it? It is just all about identification, reading keys, and technique - that's the only thing to work on?

    Not trying to come at you, but I'm having a hard time understanding that. And if we have to simply agree that we disagree - that's fine.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    So how would you explain the rise of the 3-4 zone blitz, the 46, the Tampa 2, etc? I mean those were innovations, many based on existing things, but you are not arguing that defenses are done developing?

    Like whatever was thought of in 2018 is it? It is just all about identification, reading keys, and technique - that's the only thing to work on?

    Not trying to come at you, but I'm having a hard time understanding that. And if we have to simply agree that we disagree - that's fine.
    Like I said at the first, I'm not trying to come across like I know anything more than anyone else. So you may be way ahead of me on this. I just don't see how you can preemptively build a defensive scheme and get the right players to run it. How long now have GaTech and Navy run their triple option on offense? Unless you have the athletes to rotate in and out against it defenses still today get beat through sheer attrition and exhaustion. Nobody builds a defense to specifically beat that style offense. Offenses CAN scheme to beat a Tampa 2, or such. Which is why defenses are trying to use so many sub packages, to not be in just any one defense. Problem is the players cannot successfully run every style defense. To keep changing the defense and the personnel to run said defense is what's creating so much chaos we're having issues with now. I THINK, just what I think here, is playing fundamentally sound defense with 'know your responsibility' discipline, and the right group of athletes to run it, is how defense wins. If that means we disagree on this, I'm ok with that. Can't agree on everything. That would just be weird.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    For me it is all related. Butler needs to learn how to coach better or come up with a different scheme.

    For years we were all told that only a vanishingly small minority of players can handle the demands of being an NFL QB and there has never been and will never be enough of them to go around. Everyone accepted that. Over the last 2-5 years we have seen an increasing number of offensive coaches refuse to accept that as an answer. They have changed what NFL offenses do at a fundamental level. This has shifted the demands on the QB position and expanded the pool of acceptable QBs.

    There has been a similar overhaul with offensive lineman, as colleges were simply not producing the traditional types.

    Butler and most NFL defensive coordinators are doing the same old stuff. And they are mostly helpless bystanders as NFL offenses spread them out horizontally and vertically at the same time and hammer away at any weakness until something breaks. The only answer anyone has is "pass rush". That is a component of an answer but far from a total answer.

    The same types of innovative and adaptive thinking that allow an increasing number of players to flourish at the QB position needs to be brought to bear on the defensive side of the ball. And I simply do not see it from Butler. The only way his defense succeeds is to get enough pressure to throw the offense off balance or to have a better collection of athletes on his side of the ball. But schematically there seems to be very little being done to help those things happen.


    I agree with you that something needs to be done...and will be done by somebody in the next few years.

    I don't know that it will be the creation of an entirely new defense, but something needs to be done...particularly in coverage to slow down offenses and confuse quarterbacks. That will make quarterbacks hold the ball longer which leads to sacks....or fool quarterbacks into throwing more interceptions.

    I could see something conceived like a moving zone on obvious passing downs. You have your DL and your designated rushers going after the quarterback. Behind them you have a zone, but the zone coverage shifts in different directions on different levels so that it is much harder to read where the dead spots in the zone are. The receivers also have a hard time identifying where to sit down in the zone, so the quarterback and receivers aren't on the same page. The quarterbacks hold the ball longer, and there are more sacks. More miscommunication between QB and WR means more tipped passes, more throwing to the wrong spot, more indecision, which leads to more interceptions.

    All someone has to do is figure out a way to cause indecision in quarterbacks' minds for more than 2 seconds, and it has a chance to work.

    I'm just spit-balling here, but I've been trying to think of anything that can disrupt the current trend of pass catchers running free and easy throws for quarterbacks. The reason I mention zone as a possibility is because zone tends to handle bunch formations better than man coverage because of the natural picks that occur. The eyes of every defender are looking at the quarterback, so it is better equipped to stop quick throws and run support, while also allowing them to come up to tackle athletic quarterbacks that try to use their legs. Again, in zone all defenders are looking back at the QB.

    There would be a million things to figure out schematically. They would need to start this defense in theory, run theoretical plays against the defense they're trying to build, and then try to figure out how to have controlled chaos in the secondary so that it is very difficult to see what is happening, and that there aren't many places on the field that can be exploited.

    It is a nightmare to develop a defense that is radical and goes against everything that players know and have been taught their entire lives while getting them to buy in.

    It will happen. At some point, somebody is going to come up with something revolutionary. There are people that have ideas and want to try something right now. You know their are. The problem is that the people thinking about creating something new are defensive coordinators or young minds in lesser coaching positions, and they need a head coach to embrace a theoretical defense and be willing to work on it and eventually implement it. There are a lot of coaches making a lot of money that don't want to get thrown out on the street using a "gimmick defense".

    One brave soul will have to be willing to take that chance. If it works, that team will have wild success....until every other team copies your new scheme and you're playing against your own scheme on a weekly basis.

    The pioneers take the arrows.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    I agree with you that something needs to be done...and will be done by somebody in the next few years.

    I don't know that it will be the creation of an entirely new defense, but something needs to be done...particularly in coverage to slow down offenses and confuse quarterbacks. That will make quarterbacks hold the ball longer which leads to sacks....or fool quarterbacks into throwing more interceptions.

    I could see something conceived like a moving zone on obvious passing downs. You have your DL and your designated rushers going after the quarterback. Behind them you have a zone, but the zone coverage shifts in different directions on different levels so that it is much harder to read where the dead spots in the zone are. The receivers also have a hard time identifying where to sit down in the zone, so the quarterback and receivers aren't on the same page. The quarterbacks hold the ball longer, and there are more sacks. More miscommunication between QB and WR means more tipped passes, more throwing to the wrong spot, more indecision, which leads to more interceptions.

    All someone has to do is figure out a way to cause indecision in quarterbacks' minds for more than 2 seconds, and it has a chance to work.

    I'm just spit-balling here, but I've been trying to think of anything that can disrupt the current trend of pass catchers running free and easy throws for quarterbacks. The reason I mention zone as a possibility is because zone tends to handle bunch formations better than man coverage because of the natural picks that occur. The eyes of every defender are looking at the quarterback, so it is better equipped to stop quick throws and run support, while also allowing them to come up to tackle athletic quarterbacks that try to use their legs. Again, in zone all defenders are looking back at the QB.

    There would be a million things to figure out schematically. They would need to start this defense in theory, run theoretical plays against the defense they're trying to build, and then try to figure out how to have controlled chaos in the secondary so that it is very difficult to see what is happening, and that there aren't many places on the field that can be exploited.

    It is a nightmare to develop a defense that is radical and goes against everything that players know and have been taught their entire lives while getting them to buy in.

    It will happen. At some point, somebody is going to come up with something revolutionary. There are people that have ideas and want to try something right now. You know their are. The problem is that the people thinking about creating something new are defensive coordinators or young minds in lesser coaching positions, and they need a head coach to embrace a theoretical defense and be willing to work on it and eventually implement it. There are a lot of coaches making a lot of money that don't want to get thrown out on the street using a "gimmick defense".

    One brave soul will have to be willing to take that chance. If it works, that team will have wild success....until every other team copies your new scheme and you're playing against your own scheme on a weekly basis.

    The pioneers take the arrows.
    That is a great post. And your points about the slow pace and immense risks that come with radical change are well taken. Hadn't thought about the players not taking to a new idea/concept because it violates their learned football instincts.

    Well, no matter what it isn't happening in 2018. Maybe 2019 someone rolls out the first pieces...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Like I said at the first, I'm not trying to come across like I know anything more than anyone else. So you may be way ahead of me on this. I just don't see how you can preemptively build a defensive scheme and get the right players to run it. How long now have GaTech and Navy run their triple option on offense? Unless you have the athletes to rotate in and out against it defenses still today get beat through sheer attrition and exhaustion. Nobody builds a defense to specifically beat that style offense. Offenses CAN scheme to beat a Tampa 2, or such. Which is why defenses are trying to use so many sub packages, to not be in just any one defense. Problem is the players cannot successfully run every style defense. To keep changing the defense and the personnel to run said defense is what's creating so much chaos we're having issues with now. I THINK, just what I think here, is playing fundamentally sound defense with 'know your responsibility' discipline, and the right group of athletes to run it, is how defense wins. If that means we disagree on this, I'm ok with that. Can't agree on everything. That would just be weird.
    I got no idea either. You make great points about not overcomplicating things.

    I suspect I'm over-thinking things. It is pretty common...

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    That is a great post. And your points about the slow pace and immense risks that come with radical change are well taken. Hadn't thought about the players not taking to a new idea/concept because it violates their learned football instincts.

    Well, no matter what it isn't happening in 2018. Maybe 2019 someone rolls out the first pieces...


    What I'm talking about in my post isn't even something I think teams would do full time as a new defense. It would start as a wrinkle. Something to use situationally. It would probably be most effective if used in obvious passing situations to start. Then you start randomly using that coverage on other downs just to keep the offense guessing and confused so they don't get a bead on when you are or are not using the new coverage. The key would be to give offenses some of the same looks no matter what coverages you are playing. Make quarterbacks hold the ball because they are unsure.

    Then if things just get a little more reasonable with the roughing the QB rules, you're in business. I know....I'm asking a lot.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    For me it is all related. Butler needs to learn how to coach better or come up with a different scheme.

    For years we were all told that only a vanishingly small minority of players can handle the demands of being an NFL QB and there has never been and will never be enough of them to go around. Everyone accepted that. Over the last 2-5 years we have seen an increasing number of offensive coaches refuse to accept that as an answer. They have changed what NFL offenses do at a fundamental level. This has shifted the demands on the QB position and expanded the pool of acceptable QBs.

    There has been a similar overhaul with offensive lineman, as colleges were simply not producing the traditional types.

    Butler and most NFL defensive coordinators are doing the same old stuff. And they are mostly helpless bystanders as NFL offenses spread them out horizontally and vertically at the same time and hammer away at any weakness until something breaks. The only answer anyone has is "pass rush". That is a component of an answer but far from a total answer.

    The same types of innovative and adaptive thinking that allow an increasing number of players to flourish at the QB position needs to be brought to bear on the defensive side of the ball. And I simply do not see it from Butler. The only way his defense succeeds is to get enough pressure to throw the offense off balance or to have a better collection of athletes on his side of the ball. But schematically there seems to be very little being done to help those things happen.
    This could be an interesting side bar conversation for this season though. In the college game right now, who are some of the better innovative defensive coaches? Maybe test the waters on a few and see how they do vs pro style offenses. Most college QBs don't play under center so "pro style" would require some wiggle room by definition.

    Here is a list of names from a 2016 Bleacher Report article:
    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ootball#slide8

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post

    Butler and most NFL defensive coordinators are doing the same old stuff. And they are mostly helpless bystanders as NFL offenses spread them out horizontally and vertically at the same time and hammer away at any weakness until something breaks....

    The same types of innovative and adaptive thinking that allow an increasing number of players to flourish at the QB position needs to be brought to bear on the defensive side of the ball.
    Consider the possibility the folks who run the NFL (owners and league office) have zero interest in encouraging innovations on defense to hold down scoring and will tweak the rules some more if a defensive innovation spreads across the league

    NFL’s TV ratings anxiety cools: ‘This year they’ve got a blockbuster’

    For the moment, league and TV executives can exhale. Five weeks into the season — a large enough sample size to offer something of a progress report — the returns are plenty encouraging.

    CBS’s NFL audience is up 7 percent; FOX’s is down 2 percent; NBC’s Sunday Night viewership is basically flat; and ESPN’s Monday Night broadcast is down 4 percent, but with several marquee matchups still to come. All told, the league’s ratings are up a few percentage points....

    Now consider that relative stability in a larger context: In September, the top 15 TV shows were all NFL games....

    The leading reason for the good news, several media and league executives said, has a shockingly simple explanation: better football. Through five weeks, the league has set a record for scoring (it’s up 11 percent from last year, the largest single jump since 1975), while the average margin of victory (counting ties) is just 9.96 points, which would be the lowest since 1932.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...=.52bf776d143b

    "Better football" being defined as lots of scoring, which not only is seen as more entertaining but allows games to stay close since defenses cannot stop anyone

    When baseball needed to recover from the 1994 strike it juiced the baseball and turned a blind eye to PEDs to encourage home runs - no coincidence NFL teams are blowing the roof off scoring after several seasons of the NFL getting increasingly desperate to turn around a ratings decline

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Ok, what level are we at now? Belvedere, Coleman, Benson??

    Is Keith Butler the issue, or the fact that Coty Sensabaugh has to start at CB? Is Keith Butler the issue, or the fact that the Steelers dont have a fast enough ILB to cover quick RB's like Christian McCaffrey? Or, are we still at a high Jeeves alert on the Buttler meter?

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Ok, what level are we at now? Belvedere, Coleman, Benson??

    Is Keith Butler the issue, or the fact that Coty Sensabaugh has to start at CB? Is Keith Butler the issue, or the fact that the Steelers dont have a fast enough ILB to cover quick RB's like Christian McCaffrey? Or, are we still at a high Jeeves alert on the Buttler meter?
    Not sure. Does it matter now since our Super Bowl hopes depend on the backup RCB/former 1st round pick???



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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Ok, what level are we at now? Belvedere, Coleman, Benson??

    Is Keith Butler the issue, or the fact that Coty Sensabaugh has to start at CB? Is Keith Butler the issue, or the fact that the Steelers dont have a fast enough ILB to cover quick RB's like Christian McCaffrey? Or, are we still at a high Jeeves alert on the Buttler meter?
    Well since they are on the incline and “moving up”...I’d have to say he’s at the Florence Johnston level!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Ok, what level are we at now? Belvedere, Coleman, Benson??

    Is Keith Butler the issue, or the fact that Coty Sensabaugh has to start at CB? Is Keith Butler the issue, or the fact that the Steelers dont have a fast enough ILB to cover quick RB's like Christian McCaffrey? Or, are we still at a high Jeeves alert on the Buttler meter?
    Maybe all your smart folks can help me on this. As I watched McCaffrey just cut through the defense on wheel routes, I thought of what seems like a blindingly simply change to help defenses cope with RBs in space. And since there is no way I'm clever enough to think of something that would actually work -- help me see where this idea falls apart.

    So on the first McCafferey touchdown, VW gets pinned inside because the WR cuts across the DBs face and forces VW to work around him to get to McCaffrey. This is basically the same as a screen in basketball. VW chose to go over the screen and couldn't get to his spot in time to cover the RB. Why can't NFL defenses borrow an idea from basketball and have the DB and LB switch out on the screener? So when that WR cuts hard to the middle of field and uses the DB to help screen off the LB -- they switch. The DB peels off and rolls over to the RB on the wheel route and the LB picks up the WR running the shallow crosser.

    Considering that both McCaffrey's receiving TDs were wide open for similar reasons -- the shallow crossing of WRs an TEs caused the DBs to "trap" the LB inside -- wouldn't "switching the screen" like in basketball make sense and take that tactic away from an offense? Of course it creates a mismatch with a WR on a LB, but teams make that trade-off in other defensive alignments all the time. Surely a poorly covered WR is better than a totally uncovered RB?

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    The only thing I have to say negative about Butler (or our defense) right now is the second TD of the Panthers, when it was wide open!

    Also, the Steelers should never put their ILB on a good fast receiver RB.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tube517 View Post
    Not sure. Does it matter now since our Super Bowl hopes depend on the backup RCB/former 1st round pick???

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Maybe all your smart folks can help me on this. As I watched McCaffrey just cut through the defense on wheel routes, I thought of what seems like a blindingly simply change to help defenses cope with RBs in space. And since there is no way I'm clever enough to think of something that would actually work -- help me see where this idea falls apart.

    So on the first McCafferey touchdown, VW gets pinned inside because the WR cuts across the DBs face and forces VW to work around him to get to McCaffrey. This is basically the same as a screen in basketball. VW chose to go over the screen and couldn't get to his spot in time to cover the RB. Why can't NFL defenses borrow an idea from basketball and have the DB and LB switch out on the screener? So when that WR cuts hard to the middle of field and uses the DB to help screen off the LB -- they switch. The DB peels off and rolls over to the RB on the wheel route and the LB picks up the WR running the shallow crosser.

    Considering that both McCaffrey's receiving TDs were wide open for similar reasons -- the shallow crossing of WRs an TEs caused the DBs to "trap" the LB inside -- wouldn't "switching the screen" like in basketball make sense and take that tactic away from an offense? Of course it creates a mismatch with a WR on a LB, but teams make that trade-off in other defensive alignments all the time. Surely a poorly covered WR is better than a totally uncovered RB?
    Its tough, because if a defense is in man coverage and then 2 players decide to switch men, it most likely creates a mismatch. If it was VW and Sensabaugh, then VW would end up on a WR running a crossing route and again be mismatched. Also, the tight quarters of a basketball court compared to a football stadium doesn't allow for the same kind of communication, or even physical proximity.

    There are so many challenges on trying to have a ILB and CB switch man to man coverage, compared to basketball that the best thing is to just ….be a better ILB, or play a box safety vs a smaller back like McCaffrey.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Its tough, because if a defense is in man coverage and then 2 players decide to switch men, it most likely creates a mismatch. If it was VW and Sensabaugh, then VW would end up on a WR running a crossing route and again be mismatched. Also, the tight quarters of a basketball court compared to a football stadium doesn't allow for the same kind of communication, or even physical proximity.

    There are so many challenges on trying to have a ILB and CB switch man to man coverage, compared to basketball that the best thing is to just ….be a better ILB, or play a box safety vs a smaller back like McCaffrey.
    The problem is that without a teleporter, I don't think any ILB could have got out to their spot on either play. Even Shazier. Both cases there were several hundred pounds of moving human being in the way preventing the backer from reaching the spot. Maybe pre-snap recognition or reading keys would allow the LB to get moving early in the sequence and beat the "screen". I don't know. Perhaps a box safety starts a few yards further off the line and doesn't get caught in the wash of the other screen/rub routes, I don't know. But I do know that the plan the Steelers have for these type of plays is basically worthless. And it may be more about how they are thinking about it not the players being used. I am startign to wonder if they are beat before the play even begins because they are planning on defending the RB with a physical impossible sequence of events.

    And you are likely correct that there a significant communication and other difficulties in what I proposed. But doing the same old thing isn't working for a single defense in the league right now either. Basketball teams didn't used to ascribe to the switch everything ethos that most of the NCAA and NBA does now either. But the game changed and provoked a response.

    I'm not trying to take anything away from the Steelers defense or Butler right now. Just wondering out loud and with no real purpose if offensive coaches are picking on flaws in the way that defensive coaches approach things. If so, maybe the approach has to change...?

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    The problem is that without a teleporter, I don't think any ILB could have got out to their spot on either play. Even Shazier. Both cases there were several hundred pounds of moving human being in the way preventing the backer from reaching the spot. Maybe pre-snap recognition or reading keys would allow the LB to get moving early in the sequence and beat the "screen". I don't know. Perhaps a box safety starts a few yards further off the line and doesn't get caught in the wash of the other screen/rub routes, I don't know. But I do know that the plan the Steelers have for these type of plays is basically worthless. And it may be more about how they are thinking about it not the players being used. I am startign to wonder if they are beat before the play even begins because they are planning on defending the RB with a physical impossible sequence of events.

    And you are likely correct that there a significant communication and other difficulties in what I proposed. But doing the same old thing isn't working for a single defense in the league right now either. Basketball teams didn't used to ascribe to the switch everything ethos that most of the NCAA and NBA does now either. But the game changed and provoked a response.

    I'm not trying to take anything away from the Steelers defense or Butler right now. Just wondering out loud and with no real purpose if offensive coaches are picking on flaws in the way that defensive coaches approach things. If so, maybe the approach has to change...?
    It was a good play call against a weakness (non-athletic ILB's) in the Steelers defense. If its Shazier, Deion Jones, etc, maybe they are better athletes and get to it, or maybe they keep outside leverage better to get over the top of the pick and draw a penalty on the WR.

    Its why a defense needs to be able to play man or zone and multiple coverages and disquise them, so its not such an easy read for the OC, QB, RB, etc. This is why when fans say "we need to play man" is kind of a joke to me, as if you stick to one coverage type, its easier for me as an OC to gameplan it.

    As for the history of basketball and switching. Its been over 30 years since I played highschool basketball and even back then we decided if we were going to "switch everything", "fight thru every screen" or "call picks and switches". Its nothing new, but the value of the 3point shot is prioritized today. In the end you can call picks in Hoops easier than in Football and Norv Turner drew up a nice play to expose the Steelers slow ILB's in man coverage.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    So pretty much a key to beating the Steelers Defense. James White comes to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    So pretty much a key to beating the Steelers Defense. James White comes to mind.
    The steelers need to treat White as a receiver not as a runner ... Put a CB or safety against him like the eagles did in the last super bowl.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    The steelers need to treat White as a receiver not as a runner ... Put a CB or safety against him like the eagles did in the last super bowl.
    Yeah I'm all for using 3 safeties vs the Pats, they're not much of a pound the rock team. TBH when we went safety heavy this year, I was thinking we were trying to build a defense to stop NE type offenses. Hybrid players like Shazier or Edmunds are key to stopping, well, hybrid players on offense.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    The problem is that without a teleporter, I don't think any ILB could have got out to their spot on either play. Even Shazier. Both cases there were several hundred pounds of moving human being in the way preventing the backer from reaching the spot. Maybe pre-snap recognition or reading keys would allow the LB to get moving early in the sequence and beat the "screen". I don't know. Perhaps a box safety starts a few yards further off the line and doesn't get caught in the wash of the other screen/rub routes, I don't know. But I do know that the plan the Steelers have for these type of plays is basically worthless. And it may be more about how they are thinking about it not the players being used. I am startign to wonder if they are beat before the play even begins because they are planning on defending the RB with a physical impossible sequence of events.

    And you are likely correct that there a significant communication and other difficulties in what I proposed. But doing the same old thing isn't working for a single defense in the league right now either. Basketball teams didn't used to ascribe to the switch everything ethos that most of the NCAA and NBA does now either. But the game changed and provoked a response.

    I'm not trying to take anything away from the Steelers defense or Butler right now. Just wondering out loud and with no real purpose if offensive coaches are picking on flaws in the way that defensive coaches approach things. If so, maybe the approach has to change...?


    Gonzo is right in the post he made above. A simple switch in man coverage leaves a mismatch because if a DB switches with an ILB, suddenly Vince Williams is matched up on a WR.....not an optimal situation to say the least.

    The question you ask about an ILB getting pinned inside is valid, because that is how offenses are designed. They are designed to take advantage of the natural pick or rub plays that are allowed in the game right now. It's more the way it's officiated than anything. Offensive players are not allowed to intentionally pick off or impede defensive players to create separation. However, the officials are trained not to call interference unless there is obvious intentional contact. Hell, even when WR's blatantly block defenders while the ball is in the air, they rarely call it.

    This is why I talked about a new defense that needs to be devised to handle plays like the one you are referring to by scheming a new type of zone to account for plays just like that. On a play like that to the RB, a zone could allow for a player to come up unimpeded because their eyes are looking back at the quarterback and can react while the ball is in the air. If a defense can be created so that the defense is moving and always changing coverage responsibilities, offenses wouldn't be able to design routes to pick off defenders because they wouldn't know which defender would be in coverage on a particular player. Right now, defenses are very predictable because once a QB identifies the defense you are in, he knows coverage responsibilities and so do the receivers....which makes it easy to run picks because they always know where the defender will be coming from to make the play on the first option of the play called.

    You can also have an OLB not rush the passer and follow the RB into coverage. If they do that, the OT to that side doesn't have anyone to block so they help the guard, and then it opens up the chance to blitz another defender to outnumber the available blockers to one side while still only rushing 4. It has to be orchestrated well and everyone needs to be on the same page. Of course, quarterbacks see this and react by throwing to the area vacated by the blitzer. It still leaves a defense vulnerable to a quarterback that can identify the OLB leaving the pass rush and the blitzer. That's why defenses are always working their best when 4 designated pass rushers can effectively get quick pressure on the quarterback, and sound coverage is played with no voids created by blitzing. That's why offenses have made the pick play such a large part of what they do. It tips the scales in the offense's favor.

    Right now with the rules of the game and the way they are enforced, offenses have more answers than the defenses do by league design. Someone needs to figure out new schemes to tip the scales in defenses' favor or at least neutralize the offenses' advantages.
    Last edited by pczach; 11-10-2018 at 05:59 AM.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    Gonzo is right in the post he made above. A simple switch in man coverage leaves a mismatch because if a DB switches with an ILB, suddenly Vince Williams is matched up on a WR.....not an optimal situation to say the least.

    The question you ask about an ILB getting pinned inside is valid, because that is how offenses are designed. They are designed to take advantage of the natural pick or rub plays that are allowed in the game right now. It's more the way it's officiated than anything. Offensive players are not allowed to intentionally pick off or impede defensive players to create separation. However, the officials are trained not to call interference unless there is obvious intentional contact. Hell, even when WR's blatantly block defenders while the ball is in the air, they rarely call it.

    This is why I talked about a new defense that needs to be devised to handle plays like the one you are referring to by scheming a new type of zone to account for plays just like that. On a play like that to the RB, a zone could allow for a player to come up unimpeded because their eyes are looking back at the quarterback and can react while the ball is in the air. If a defense can be created so that the defense is moving and always changing coverage responsibilities, offenses wouldn't be able to design routes to pick off defenders because they wouldn't know which defender would be in coverage on a particular player. Right now, defenses are very predictable because once a QB identifies the defense you are in, he knows coverage responsibilities and so do the receivers....which makes it easy to run picks because they always know where the defender will be coming from to make the play on the first option of the play called.

    You can also have an OLB not rush the passer and follow the RB into coverage. If they do that, the OT to that side doesn't have anyone to block so they help the guard, and then it opens up the chance to blitz another defender to outnumber the available blockers to one side while still only rushing 4. It has to be orchestrated well and everyone needs to be on the same page. Of course, quarterbacks see this and react by throwing to the area vacated by the blitzer. It still leaves a defense vulnerable to a quarterback that can identify the OLB leaving the pass rush and the blitzer. That's why defenses are always working their best when 4 designated pass rushers can effectively get quick pressure on the quarterback, and sound coverage is played with no voids created by blitzing. That's why offenses have made the pick play such a large part of what they do. It tips the scales in the offenses favor.

    Right now with the rules of the game and the way they are enforced, offenses have more answers than the defenses do by league design. Someone needs to figure out new schemes to tip the scales in defenses' favor or at least neutralize the offenses' advantages.
    I think you hit the nail on the head for me. Often defenses are beaten before the ball is snapped. They are responding in a predictable and preprogrammed manner. Good offensive coaches know this and have a sequence already cued up to beat the defense.

    Someone has to develop an unexpected set of defensive responses. Bring rushers from unanticipated places and roll out coverages that don’t play into traditional expectations. I have no idea what that would look like. I don’t know the game well enough. But I refuse to believe that just doing the same old same old is a good response.

    Realistically I also don’t believe the middle of the season is the time to get wacky and crazily innovative. But this off season defensive coaches across the NFL gotta get in the lab and cook up something because the standard answers aren’t working anymore.


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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I think you hit the nail on the head for me. Often defenses are beaten before the ball is snapped. They are responding in a predictable and preprogrammed manner. Good offensive coaches know this and have a sequence already cued up to beat the defense.

    Someone has to develop an unexpected set of defensive responses. Bring rushers from unanticipated places and roll out coverages that don’t play into traditional expectations. I have no idea what that would look like. I don’t know the game well enough. But I refuse to believe that just doing the same old same old is a good response.

    Realistically I also don’t believe the middle of the season is the time to get wacky and crazily innovative. But this off season defensive coaches across the NFL gotta get in the lab and cook up something because the standard answers aren’t working anymore.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


    The unpredictable pass rushing isn't the issue. They already do that now as they try to disguise who is rushing the quarterback and who is not.

    It's what is happening behind the pass rush that something needs to be created. Offenses have figured out that if they spread defenses out, they are able to identify defenses more easily and create space for the receivers and passing lanes while dictating to the defense. Of course, all that is predicated on the quarterback's ability to get the ball out quickly and to the right man without getting him killed by not having enough blockers to pick up the blitz if the defense attacks and goes man coverage. Then defensively, either the pass rush needs to get there and the coverage holds up or it doesn't. If you have a handful of guys that excel in press coverage and outstanding pass rushers, you have a chance. But even then, the pick plays we have been discussing here come into play to counter the man coverage.

    It's a vicious cycle that defenses are forced to deal with by the way the game is legislated and officiated.

    Of course, you already know all this.

    Remember when they were considering widening the field because defenses had the upper hand? They no longer need to. Now that they make it harder for defenders to cover, easier to get penalized for pass interference, and easier to get penalized for hitting the QB and simply tackling, it is very hard to stop offenses. When you then add in what innovative offensive minds are doing to take advantage of the new style of play in the passing game and the RPO stuff integrated into offenses to stress defenses with the run and the pass......it is very hard to slow down elite offenses with great quarterbacks, good offensive line play, and numerous weapons.

    Defenses are at a serious disadvantage.

    Somebody, somewhere is spending nearly every available second locked in a room working on the next great defensive idea. We don't know who it is or when it will happen...but it will happen.

  26. #296
    Senior Member Array title="teegre has a reputation beyond repute"> teegre's Avatar

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    The defense has been good enough. If you take out the garbage-time TDs for the Panthers, Browns, and Falcons. The defense has allowed....


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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    The offense has to play defense in today's NFL. If you can get ahead of the other team, you limit their play calling options, which allows a defense to thrive, like we saw last Thursday. The Offense has to score, score early, score regularly, and also strip time off the clock when it has to.

    Only then will you see a dominant looking defensive performance.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    The defense has been good enough. If you take out the garbage-time TDs for the Panthers, Browns, and Falcons. The defense has allowed....


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    If they slow the Pats and the Chargers, I’ll believe. If not, I’ll stand by my belief that the Steelers can only beat elite offensive teams in a shoot out.

    Which would put them in the same boat as the Patriots, Chiefs, Rams, Saints, and Chargers.


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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    If they slow the Pats and the Chargers, I’ll believe. If not, I’ll stand by my belief that the Steelers can only beat elite offensive teams in a shoot out.

    Which would put them in the same boat as the Patriots, Chiefs, Rams, Saints, and Chargers.


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    We can say the same thing about rams, saints, chiefs and the pats.

    I mean, the game between KC / NE ended 43-40 and the game between saints and rams was 45-35...

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    If they slow the Pats and the Chargers, I’ll believe. If not, I’ll stand by my belief that the Steelers can only beat elite offensive teams in a shoot out.

    Which would put them in the same boat as the Patriots, Chiefs, Rams, Saints, and Chargers.


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    To a degree, I agree.

    That said, the Falcons and Panthers have pretty good offenses.

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