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Thread: The Keith Butler Thread

  1. #151
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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    Young HC as Sean McVay and Doug Peterson is better than Tomlin.
    Let’s see if McVay wins a playoff game first - his team crapped out at home last season against a Falcons team that was no juggernaut.

    As for Peterson, once he wins a second Lombardi I agree - for the moment the Eagles are lucky to be 2-1 and their great DC oversaw a defense that gave up 4 TD passes and 27 points to Fitz last week

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    Let’s see if McVay wins a playoff game first - his team crapped out at home last season against a Falcons team that was no juggernaut.

    As for Peterson, once he wins a second Lombardi I agree - for the moment the Eagles are lucky to be 2-1 and their great DC oversaw a defense that gave up 4 TD passes and 27 points to Fitz last week
    Shush! This is not a forum for balanced and reasoned discussion. It is a place to vent your spleen about how the Steelers make you feel. Also, being aware of, much less watching other NFL games is very optional!

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NCSteeler View Post
    I hate this argument. Tomlin wasn't a great HC waiting around for Cowher to retire. Lots of good coaches waiting for an opportunity , they don't have to be a current head coach.
    All well and good, but it misses the point. Sure, you don't *have* to replace Tomlin with a current HC, but you gotta replace him with somebody, and that somebody had better be an improvement. Easier said than done.
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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    Let’s see if McVay wins a playoff game first - his team crapped out at home last season against a Falcons team that was no juggernaut.

    As for Peterson, once he wins a second Lombardi I agree - for the moment the Eagles are lucky to be 2-1 and their great DC oversaw a defense that gave up 4 TD passes and 27 points to Fitz last week
    Exactly. Flavors of the week.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    There was literally no skill applied to the interception by Dupree. It was practically a guy with his back to the jugs machine and he spun around and the ball was there. He looked like he was lost out there and then turned around and boom. Hey here’s a football...
    On Dupree’s part, maybe not.

    But, Bostic hitting Fitzpatrick’s shoulder certainly involved skill.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    On Dupree’s part, maybe not.

    But, Bostic hitting Fitzpatrick’s shoulder certainly involved skill.
    This play is kinda problematic from a fan perspective. Because I see two versions of it and am really having a hard time determining which one is "true".

    What I can see from this video (https://www.steelers.com/video/highl...ree-s-pick-six) is the following:

    GOOD:
    1. Steelers are in a base package with Edmunds (34) at the end of the line on the near side and Dupree at the end of the line on the far side.
    2. At the snap they rush 6 (the 3 DL + Watt + Edmunds + Dupree). Bostic charges forward, but retreats to deal with the RB coming through the line after play action.
    3. I think it is a zone coverage play. Dupree takes a few steps like he is pass rushing. Pins the LT to his spot. This allows Heyward (I think) to get a relatively one on one matchup with the LG, who he absolutely destroys. Also, if Edmunds had more of a pass rush plan, he might have got free as well. The Tampa blocker on that end of the line locked a bit uncertain of who his assignment was between Edmunds and Watt.
    4. Behind the rush, VW, Burns, and Bostic are in coverage against the WR, TE, and RB. But, I think but do not know and I could be WAY wrong, this is where it gets clever - Dupree has the short sideline zone between Bostic in the flat and Burns over the top. After his initial steps as a pass rusher, he turns and runs flat out to a spot.
    5. Fitzpatrick never sees Dupree because he is obscured by the play action and Fitzpatrick never reidentifies if Dupree is a rusher or a coverage defender when he turns back to that side of the field. Fitz was trying to throw to "hole in zone" and found Dupree.

    BAD:

    All of the above, but Dupree was actually intended to turn and run with the TE from the snap and it took him about 2.5 seconds to remember that. It was only a bad throw by Fitzpatrick that allowed Dupree to look like he was in the right place at the right time when he was really badly out of position. This could very well be the case, as it appears that Burns would've had two receivers in his zone. As well as Bostic and Dupree seem to be working the same patch of grass. Hard to tell with the other safety not in the frame ever.

    Honestly, I have no idea. But I do think that Dupree was intended to be in some kind of coverage, because Butler rarely sends 6, especially if one is a DB.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    Let’s see if McVay wins a playoff game first - his team crapped out at home last season against a Falcons team that was no juggernaut.

    As for Peterson, once he wins a second Lombardi I agree - for the moment the Eagles are lucky to be 2-1 and their great DC oversaw a defense that gave up 4 TD passes and 27 points to Fitz last week
    Peterson won a super bowl with a QB backup and several other injuries in his team.It was an incredible coaching job by him

    For his defense against Tampa Bay ... everyone can have a bad game, but it does not happen week after week for them

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    All well and good, but it misses the point. Sure, you don't *have* to replace Tomlin with a current HC, but you gotta replace him with somebody, and that somebody had better be an improvement. Easier said than done.
    Agreed. It will most likely take several bad years for any of that to happen.
    But here's the way I see it. Every head coach seems to bring some skill some ability to the table. And I thought Tomlins was his people skills and I just don't know anymore

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    I have no idea half the time what this defense is trying to get done.Sometimes i think they would be better off if everybody took a man. Couldn't be much worse off. They could call it the "old schoolyard defense". LOL!!!!!!!
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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    Peterson won a super bowl with a QB backup and several other injuries in his team.It was an incredible coaching job by him

    For his defense against Tampa Bay ... everyone can have a bad game, but it does not happen week after week for them
    No question Pederson had a great (and so far his only) playoff run last season - of course that could have ended quickly if a pedestrian Falcons team had a functioning red zone offense or just about anyone other than Steve Sarkasian as OC - so it is not as if Pederson has reinvented football

    My point is in 2009 Sean Payton was the future of NFL coaching, assuming it was not John Harbaugh in 2012 or Pete Carroll in 2013 - none of them have won it again since. It's a little early to crown Pederson or McVay as the heirs to Belichick or for that matter superior to other coaches on the second tier (which includes Tomlin).

    The greatest coach of them all said it best

    "A lot of teams have won one [title] in a row." - John Wooden

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    No question Pederson had a great (and so far his only) playoff run last season - of course that could have ended quickly if a pedestrian Falcons team had a functioning red zone offense or just about anyone other than Steve Sarkasian as OC - so it is not as if Pederson has reinvented football

    My point is in 2009 Sean Payton was the future of NFL coaching, assuming it was not John Harbaugh in 2012 or Pete Carroll in 2013 - none of them have won it again since. It's a little early to crown Pederson or McVay as the heirs to Belichick or for that matter superior to other coaches on the second tier (which includes Tomlin).

    The greatest coach of them all said it best

    "A lot of teams have won one [title] in a row." - John Wooden
    We must not judge a HC on only the Super Bowl, but what the HC did with the roster he has...Also, I have not been clear, but Peterson and McVay are examples that you can find very good HCs that they are not HC right now.

    It may be early to fired Tomlin, but some things must change before our defense and the drama are the laughing stock of the NFL.

    I also consider John Harbaugh and Sean Payton as very good coach...I mean, they had so many defeat because of one play that was out of their control that end their season.It happens 3 times for Payton (2010,2011 and 2017) and 3 times also for Harbaugh (2011,2016,2017)

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Consider the stats. In LeBeau's last season here this defense finished 28th overall in average yards allowed per drive. In Butler's first season as DC('15) that ranking jumped to 17th, in '16 to 15th, and last season to 8th.

    I guess it really depends on how you look at things. I can find lots of things that say the poor play sits with the players more than the coaches. I bet we can also find stats that show coaching failures. So, pick your poison and there you have it. 3 games in guys. Get your collective thumbs off the panic button please.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    We must not judge a HC on only the Super Bowl, but what the HC did with the roster he has...Also, I have not been clear, but Peterson and McVay are examples that you can find very good HCs that they are not HC right now.

    It may be early to fired Tomlin, but some things must change before our defense and the drama are the laughing stock of the NFL.

    I also consider John Harbaugh and Sean Payton as very good coach...I mean, they had so many defeat because of one play that was out of their control that end their season.It happens 3 times for Payton (2010,2011 and 2017) and 3 times also for Harbaugh (2011,2016,2017)
    I love your passion, but you need to calm it down a wee bit. The Steelers are far from the laughingstock of the NFL.

    I mean in a league where Hue Jackson has a job, the Buffalo Bills exist, the Cardinals are doing whatever they are doing. The Titans are around. The list could go on and on. There are far more hopeless and giggle inducing teams and units around the league than the Steelers defense.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Consider the stats. In LeBeau's last season here this defense finished 28th overall in average yards allowed per drive. In Butler's first season as DC('15) that ranking jumped to 17th, in '16 to 15th, and last season to 8th.

    I guess it really depends on how you look at things. I can find lots of things that say the poor play sits with the players more than the coaches. I bet we can also find stats that show coaching failures. So, pick your poison and there you have it. 3 games in guys. Get your collective thumbs off the panic button please.
    I do not think LeBeau would have lost 45-42 in the playoffs

    It was time for LeBeau to leave, but since Butler is here, the steelers have a major problem with communication and this year, they have given 30 PPG after 3 week and we have not played against Matt Ryan, Cam Newton, Drew Brees and Tom Brady.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I love your passion, but you need to calm it down a wee bit. The Steelers are far from the laughingstock of the NFL.

    I mean in a league where Hue Jackson has a job, the Buffalo Bills exist, the Cardinals are doing whatever they are doing. The Titans are around. The list could go on and on. There are far more hopeless and giggle inducing teams and units around the league than the Steelers defense.
    They are not the laughingstock right now, but I do not want it become.But this is a concern for me right now.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    I do not think LeBeau would have lost 45-42 in the playoffs

    It was time for LeBeau to leave, but since Butler is here, the steelers have a major problem with communication and this year, they have given 30 PPG after 3 week and we have not played against Matt Ryan, Cam Newton, Drew Brees and Tom Brady.

    - - - Updated - - -



    They are not the laughingstock right now, but I do not want it become.But this is a concern for me right now.
    Fair enough! But how is what happened in Minnesota not Payton's fault but if a Tomlin lead team had the exact same defensive breakdown it would be his fault?

    I mean you and others are on numerous threads arguing forcefully that the coaches have to correct the defensive miscues. But when another team makes a season ending defensive miscue, it is not the coaches fault?

    How is that logically consistent? I honestly do not care what standard anyone employs to evaluate something, but one shouldn't just change the criteria to fit your preferred outcome.

    As for Harbaugh, he only won with Brian Billick's team. Once Billick era players retired, the team has really struggled to stay consistent and win. If Billick had a QB like Flacco, he would've never been fired. See how that works...

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    When a team loses a player like Ryan Shazier and still finishes the season statistically better than the previous season, the coaches should get credit for that. This defense is a lot different from last season especially in the personnel department. 3 weeks into live football and we are starting to see success. We are. How many TOs and QB rushes did we see the first 2 weeks? How many did we see in week 3? The defense won it last night when the offense couldn't put Tampa away. They are not really even good yet, but that is promising.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    They are not the laughingstock right now, but I do not want it become.But this is a concern for me right now.
    I hate to break it to you but those of us who were around for the grim 1985 -1991 last act of the Noll years know that it is inevitable teams have down cycles - even Pats fans presumably see that is coming

    The Steelers consistently being in the playoff mix for most of the last quarter century since Cowher arrived (with brief hiccups like 1998-2000 and the 2012-2013 rebuilding in which the team still did not have a losing season) as a second act to the greatness of the 70s teams is astonishing.

    Rather then dread what probably is inevitable, why not simply enjoy the last years of Ben trying to win with a team that is up against both the NFL's goal of playoff turnover and the consequences of consistently picking late in the draft

    The other 31 teams (even the Browns may have finally figured it out) are likely to win at some point too - living in Atlanta gives me some perspective on how fans of most teams have to view it whether they like it or not


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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Fair enough! But how is what happened in Minnesota not Payton's fault but if a Tomlin lead team had the exact same defensive breakdown it would be his fault?

    I mean you and others are on numerous threads arguing forcefully that the coaches have to correct the defensive miscues. But when another team makes a season ending defensive miscue, it is not the coaches fault?

    How is that logically consistent? I honestly do not care what standard anyone employs to evaluate something, but one shouldn't just change the criteria to fit your preferred outcome.

    As for Harbaugh, he only won with Brian Billick's team. Once Billick era players retired, the team has really struggled to stay consistent and win. If Billick had a QB like Flacco, he would've never been fired. See how that works...
    You may be right about Payton against the Vikings but even if I admit that I have not seen much this play, the player of the saints was horrible on this play and I think that the pass was perfect...I also believe that the players of the saints did not want the Vikings player to be out of bound, since otherwise the Vikings would have a chance to win with a FG

    But it was not just this game for Payton ... The defense was decent in 2010 and 2011, but unfortunately for the saints they had their worst game at the worst time, and not forget, Payton is a offensive coach , so yes he has a responsibility on that, but it would have been worse if he would be a defensive coach ..... If he would be a defensive coach it would be a long time he would be fired by the saints.

    For Brian Billick ..... he was an offensive coach and his offenses in Baltimore were often the laughing stock of the NFL .... even the year that the ravens won the super bowl in 2000, they were 5 games in a row without TD in the month of October !!!!

    John Harbaugh is a much better coach that Billick.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    I hate to break it to you but those of us who were around for the grim 1985 -1991 last act of the Noll years know that it is inevitable teams have down cycles - even Pats fans presumably see that is coming

    The Steelers consistently being in the playoff mix for most of the last quarter century since Cowher arrived (with brief hiccups like 1998-2000 and the 2012-2013 rebuilding in which the team still did not have a losing season) as a second act to the greatness of the 70s teams is astonishing.

    Rather then dread what probably is inevitable, why not simply enjoy the last years of Ben trying to win with a team that is up against both the NFL's goal of playoff turnover and the consequences of consistently picking late in the draft

    The other 31 teams (even the Browns may have finally figured it out) are likely to win at some point too - living in Atlanta gives me some perspective on how fans of most teams have to view it whether they like it or not

    Honestly, I think it is more how the team makes people feel than how they are playing.

    Too many fans just want to talk crap to other fans and lord their team's success over others. This somehow makes their lives better. Now when they hear bad things being said about their team and good things being said about other teams, it gives them the sad feels. This makes them unhappy. Then they get the angry feelings. Sad and angry in the same day? Not since ESPN devoted 20 more minutes to the Patriots than the Steelers have they felt this outraged! Surely it must be someone, anyone's, fault that they don't feel happy!

    Personally, I blame Tomlin. Dude looks like the kinda psycho that laughs at you when you feel down.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    When a team loses a player like Ryan Shazier and still finishes the season statistically better than the previous season, the coaches should get credit for that. This defense is a lot different from last season especially in the personnel department. 3 weeks into live football and we are starting to see success. We are. How many TOs and QB rushes did we see the first 2 weeks? How many did we see in week 3? The defense won it last night when the offense couldn't put Tampa away. They are not really even good yet, but that is promising.
    Since the injury of Shazier, the steelers gave up 38,27,6,24,45,21,42 and 27 points in each of its games.This is 230 points in 8 games, which would be in pace for 460 points in a complete season that would be one of the worst seasons ever for the NFL in defense ...

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    You may be right about Payton against the Vikings but even if I admit that I have not seen much this play, the player of the saints was horrible on this play and I think that the pass was perfect...I also believe that the players of the saints did not want the Vikings player to be out of bound, since otherwise the Vikings would have a chance to win with a FG

    But it was not just this game for Payton ... The defense was decent in 2010 and 2011, but unfortunately for the saints they had their worst game at the worst time, and not forget, Payton is a offensive coach , so yes he has a responsibility on that, but it would have been worse if he would be a defensive coach ..... If he would be a defensive coach it would be a long time he would be fired by the saints.

    For Brian Billick ..... he was an offensive coach and his offenses in Baltimore were often the laughing stock of the NFL .... even the year that the ravens won the super bowl in 2000, they were 5 games in a row without TD in the month of October !!!!

    John Harbaugh is a much better coach that Billick.
    So we are talking about a play from a game you didn't watch to support an argument that I can't follow. Not sure what to do with that. But it does seem that you have decided that:

    1. Sean Payton is a good coach.
    2. Mike Tomlin is a not as good coach.
    3. Shifting goalposts and standards are used to support #1 and #2.

    The frustrating part is that you may not be wrong, but holding Tomlin to one set of standards and the coaches you compare him to to another undermines your argument.

    The Billick and Harbaugh stuff was a poorly constructed joke since it follows the same outlines as the Cowher and Tomlin stuff.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    Since the injury of Shazier, the steelers gave up 38,27,6,24,45,21,42 and 27 points in each of its games.This is 230 points in 8 games, which would be in pace for 460 points in a complete season that would be one of the worst seasons ever for the NFL in defense ...
    I didn't say they were a good defense without Shazier, I said statistically better than the previous season. Improvement is the goal is it not?

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    I didn't say they were a good defense without Shazier, I said statistically better than the previous season. Improvement is the goal is it not?
    Improvement is the goal and I have not seen much improvement under Butler, especially in communication...Our defense could be historically bad this year as it has been since 8 games.

    The other thing, I'm sick and tired of seeing our OLBs like Dupree and Watt in coverage.If we would have Mack or Von Miller, they would also be a lot in coverage if they were with the steelers.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Keepin' it real: Mike Tomlin is one of the most dominant head coaches in NFL history and the #2 active head coach. He has literally never had a losing season. Pretty much all HC's above him are in the HoF, as are many below him. If Belichick isn't available (which he isn't), I have no idea who you could possibly replace Tomlin with that would be an upgrade. I'm pretty sure a better coach isn't sitting around twiddling his thumbs tonight.

    Best,
    -Slashy
    Get used to the lack of focus, the fruity dancing, the confusion and poor fundamentals.

    As the team lost Cowher players they became a little worse. The defense is now all Tomlin and it shows.

    People waiting to get a chance at HC are all around. Cowher wasn't a HC before he came to the Steelers. Chuck Noll wasn't a HC before he came to Pittsburgh.
    Hater = Realist

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    This play is kinda problematic from a fan perspective. Because I see two versions of it and am really having a hard time determining which one is "true".

    What I can see from this video (https://www.steelers.com/video/highl...ree-s-pick-six) is the following:

    GOOD:
    1. Steelers are in a base package with Edmunds (34) at the end of the line on the near side and Dupree at the end of the line on the far side.
    2. At the snap they rush 6 (the 3 DL + Watt + Edmunds + Dupree). Bostic charges forward, but retreats to deal with the RB coming through the line after play action.
    3. I think it is a zone coverage play. Dupree takes a few steps like he is pass rushing. Pins the LT to his spot. This allows Heyward (I think) to get a relatively one on one matchup with the LG, who he absolutely destroys. Also, if Edmunds had more of a pass rush plan, he might have got free as well. The Tampa blocker on that end of the line locked a bit uncertain of who his assignment was between Edmunds and Watt.
    4. Behind the rush, VW, Burns, and Bostic are in coverage against the WR, TE, and RB. But, I think but do not know and I could be WAY wrong, this is where it gets clever - Dupree has the short sideline zone between Bostic in the flat and Burns over the top. After his initial steps as a pass rusher, he turns and runs flat out to a spot.
    5. Fitzpatrick never sees Dupree because he is obscured by the play action and Fitzpatrick never reidentifies if Dupree is a rusher or a coverage defender when he turns back to that side of the field. Fitz was trying to throw to "hole in zone" and found Dupree.

    BAD:

    All of the above, but Dupree was actually intended to turn and run with the TE from the snap and it took him about 2.5 seconds to remember that. It was only a bad throw by Fitzpatrick that allowed Dupree to look like he was in the right place at the right time when he was really badly out of position. This could very well be the case, as it appears that Burns would've had two receivers in his zone. As well as Bostic and Dupree seem to be working the same patch of grass. Hard to tell with the other safety not in the frame ever.

    Honestly, I have no idea. But I do think that Dupree was intended to be in some kind of coverage, because Butler rarely sends 6, especially if one is a DB.
    I think Bud made a decent play here. His job, imo was the LT. He sniffs out the RB route and runs to the spot keeping the RB still in front. A big push up the middle by McCullers gets depth and then he gets his arm up so Fitz can follow through. He releases the ball at it's highest point. You can see their arms hit right around the wrist, then the ball floats out over a short(er) Rodgers.

    Good for Bud to get to a spot and get his head around, but without the pressure on the throw, he's probably just wrapping a tackle around the 5 or 6 yard line.

  26. #176
    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelMember View Post
    I think Bud made a decent play here. His job, imo was the LT. He sniffs out the RB route and runs to the spot keeping the RB still in front. A big push up the middle by McCullers gets depth and then he gets his arm up so Fitz can follow through. He releases the ball at it's highest point. You can see their arms hit right around the wrist, then the ball floats out over a short(er) Rodgers.

    Good for Bud to get to a spot and get his head around, but without the pressure on the throw, he's probably just wrapping a tackle around the 5 or 6 yard line.
    No doubt, the pressure makes the turnover. But I just wanted to examine the whole "Dupree did nothing" theme. I think maybe the play was designed for him to bluff a rush and then use his speed to get to an area. Worked pretty well if that was indeed the plan.

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    Good Guys with Black Hats Array title="SteelMember has a reputation beyond repute"> SteelMember's Avatar

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    No doubt, the pressure makes the turnover. But I just wanted to examine the whole "Dupree did nothing" theme. I think maybe the play was designed for him to bluff a rush and then use his speed to get to an area. Worked pretty well if that was indeed the plan.
    He put himself in the position, but probably just a dong pick.

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    Senior Member Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute"> Born2Steel's Avatar

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    Improvement is the goal and I have not seen much improvement under Butler, especially in communication...Our defense could be historically bad this year as it has been since 8 games.

    The other thing, I'm sick and tired of seeing our OLBs like Dupree and Watt in coverage.If we would have Mack or Von Miller, they would also be a lot in coverage if they were with the steelers.
    I just told you there has been statistical improvement. Look it up. For every play these guys get beat there are 10 where they did not.(NOT ACTUAL NUMBERS) Yes that is still too many and needs to be improved upon more, but it's not like they are not improving. There is visible evidence on game film from week 1 to week 3. But whatever you think, nevermind.

  29. #179
    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelMember View Post
    He put himself in the position, but probably just a dong pick.

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