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Thread: The Keith Butler Thread

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    OK, I was confused. I thought it was like DEFCON warning level and the scale was reversed. I thought we might be standing in a calm position like Coleman currently. The less popular or prominent, the lower level of hysteria. Thanks for bringing up this point as I feel we need clarification.
    Your interpretation could very well be true, but if I'm reading it, Pennyworth is an excellent Butler and I'm probably firing some guy named Bertram from a show I've never seen.... Jessie? really Teg!?!

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread


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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post

    Bostic had some shoes to fill and I think he's doing a great job, leading the team with 35 tackles and is very dependable.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelMember View Post
    Your interpretation could very well be true, but if I'm reading it, Pennyworth is an excellent Butler and I'm probably firing some guy named Bertram from a show I've never seen.... Jessie? really Teg!?!
    Hey... I’ve got a 7-year-old daughter.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post

    I was always a big a big fan of Donnie Edwards (#homer). The dude simply made tackles, and more importantly, he never missed tackles/nothing got past him. Now, as he aged, those tackles went from “no gain” to “2-yard gain” to “5-yard gain”... but, even in his final season, he just didn’t miss tackles (albeit farther down the field than you’d prefer). Still, you never (never ever) saw a long run against him... which is the type of play that we are seeing with Bostic (i.e. sure tackling; and no long, back-breaking runs).

    I’ll take it.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    I was always a big a big fan of Donnie Edwards (#homer). The dude simply made tackles, and more importantly, he never missed tackles/nothing got past him. Now, as he aged, those tackles went from “no gain” to “2-yard gain” to “5-yard gain”... but, even in his final season, he just didn’t miss tackles (albeit farther down the field than you’d prefer). Still, you never (never ever) saw a long run against him... which is the type of play that we are seeing with Bostic (i.e. sure tackling; and no long, back-breaking runs).

    I’ll take it.
    That is a pretty good comparison. Bostic is exactly what he was advertised as. A rock-solid ILB that can diagnose and close on running plays and doesn't embarrass himself on 1st and 2nd down pass plays. Is he a warp speed sideline to sideline playmaker? Nope, but no one ever claimed he was.

    I wonder what all the naysayers who claimed that the ILB position was not addressed except for signing a scrub journeyman are thinking now?

    I mean I get that Bostic + Fort < Shazier but it was still a typical Colbert CYA free agent signing. He was able to go into the draft knowing he didn't HAVE to get a starter at ILB.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    I get that Bostic has only missed 1 tackle in the last 5 games, but he has made 15 in those last 5 games. I guess I would like to see more than an average of 3 tackles per game, but at least he is and upgrade over Sean Spence.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Bostic has been good this year. Also liking Fort as well (still wondering why he didn't start over Spence last year). The guy who practiced all year had to be a better fit than the guy who got cut by 2 teams and was sitting on the couch.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I get that Bostic has only missed 1 tackle in the last 5 games, but he has made 15 in those last 5 games. I guess I would like to see more than an average of 3 tackles per game, but at least he is and upgrade over Sean Spence.
    I don't disagree. But I wonder what percentage of the downs has Bostic been on the field for? During this win streak, there has not been a ton of rushing by the opposition after the first quarter due to game flow.

    Can't make tackles if you are not on the field.

    Now, if he is playing 80% of the defensive snaps and still not getting to the ball...

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I don't disagree. But I wonder what percentage of the downs has Bostic been on the field for? During this win streak, there has not been a ton of rushing by the opposition after the first quarter due to game flow.

    Can't make tackles if you are not on the field.

    Now, if he is playing 80% of the defensive snaps and still not getting to the ball...
    I agree. I think Bostic is a good tackler, but you also cant make the tackles if you don't get to the football because you are limited athletically, which I think both Steelers ILB's are.

    IMO, the top priority in the draft is finding an ILB that can run and tackle

  11. #341
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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    It seems like speed at the position is what everyone is looking for and I understand that. We had that with Shazier, but he always topped the list by a good margin on missed tackles.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I agree. I think Bostic is a good tackler, but you also cant make the tackles if you don't get to the football because you are limited athletically, which I think both Steelers ILB's are.

    IMO, the top priority in the draft is finding an ILB that can run and tackle

    I'd take 2 if possible.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoes View Post
    It seems like speed at the position is what everyone is looking for and I understand that. We had that with Shazier, but he always topped the list by a good margin on missed tackles.

    - - - Updated - - -






    I'd take 2 if possible.
    Yes, speed is important to be able to get to the edges in the run game, or bubble screens, etc. Also, the ability to get depth and close out passing lanes down the seam to TE's.

    I have seen a couple mock drafts that put Devin Bush of Michigan to the Steelers. Bush is all over the field as an ILB and a playmaker. The only thing that could hamper him is his 5'11" height in defending TE's in the passing game, but the kid flat out makes plays.

    I personally think ILB and TE are the 2 areas without a #1 talented player. OLB is also Watt as a prime time player and Dupree as an average player, but not a lot of depth. I think Steelers need to target an ILB and then look at a pass rusher in the 2nd unless a good TE is on the board.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I agree. I think Bostic is a good tackler, but you also cant make the tackles if you don't get to the football because you are limited athletically, which I think both Steelers ILB's are.

    IMO, the top priority in the draft is finding an ILB that can run and tackle
    Sure. That is undoubtedly true. Bostic is not a "playmaker" but he is assignment sound if you are reasonable as a DC with what you task him to do.

    Honestly, I don't think they go ILB early at all in the draft. They are gonna figure that some combination of VW/Bostic/Thomas/and "dimebacker" from the SS pool can get them through 2019.

    I think they will look at their outside CBs and be like "old", "head-case bust", "journeyman zone guy", "3rd rounder who flashes but never seizes opportunity", and "raw prospect who may have plateaued". I figure that gets 1-2 draft picks in the first 4 rounds.

    Then they look at their OLB depth chart and see Watt and a bunch of question marks. Even if we believe in the kid from Toledo with all the vowels in his name. That is 2-3 at best. They should be 4-5 deep at the position. So that will get at least 1 pick in the first 4.

    Next I look at RB and realize I am one injury away from my offense potentially seizing up. That will get a pick.

    WR will get a pick, because it always does and it is time to push Justin Hunter off the roster.

    Long story short; unless some "stud" falls to them in Rd 1 -- they ain't drafting an ILB. I mean think about it. If they didn't draft a guy in 2018 when the need was at the most pressing, why would they draft a guy in 2019 when the defense is playing better and Bostic/Thomas/Edmunds/Burnett/Allen/Golden are all guys that exist on the roster? I also think this dovetails with Tomlin's continued comments about "sub-package" football. Your DBs and EDGE guys are always on the field. Your ILBs are transitioning to only be only field less than 50% of the time. If I really thought that they were willing to replace VW as a starter, then I would argue that they would be looking to get a guy with their first pick. But I don't think they are thinking that way at all. So you are talking about a guy who plays on 2 downs. So earliest they would take him would be Rd. 3 if the ILB version of Hargraves showed up.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Sure. That is undoubtedly true. Bostic is not a "playmaker" but he is assignment sound if you are reasonable as a DC with what you task him to do.

    Honestly, I don't think they go ILB early at all in the draft. They are gonna figure that some combination of VW/Bostic/Thomas/and "dimebacker" from the SS pool can get them through 2019.

    I think they will look at their outside CBs and be like "old", "head-case bust", "journeyman zone guy", "3rd rounder who flashes but never seizes opportunity", and "raw prospect who may have plateaued". I figure that gets 1-2 draft picks in the first 4 rounds.

    Then they look at their OLB depth chart and see Watt and a bunch of question marks. Even if we believe in the kid from Toledo with all the vowels in his name. That is 2-3 at best. They should be 4-5 deep at the position. So that will get at least 1 pick in the first 4.

    Next I look at RB and realize I am one injury away from my offense potentially seizing up. That will get a pick.

    WR will get a pick, because it always does and it is time to push Justin Hunter off the roster.

    Long story short; unless some "stud" falls to them in Rd 1 -- they ain't drafting an ILB. I mean think about it. If they didn't draft a guy in 2018 when the need was at the most pressing, why would they draft a guy in 2019 when the defense is playing better and Bostic/Thomas/Edmunds/Burnett/Allen/Golden are all guys that exist on the roster? I also think this dovetails with Tomlin's continued comments about "sub-package" football. Your DBs and EDGE guys are always on the field. Your ILBs are transitioning to only be only field less than 50% of the time. If I really thought that they were willing to replace VW as a starter, then I would argue that they would be looking to get a guy with their first pick. But I don't think they are thinking that way at all. So you are talking about a guy who plays on 2 downs. So earliest they would take him would be Rd. 3 if the ILB version of Hargraves showed up.

    It will be interesting to see if they can meet any of these needs in FA, I think they will go BPA on ILB, OLB or CB in R1. We still need a TE, McDonald is good but injuries and drops linger in my mind plus what is he going to cost next year? James has improved but he still not what we need but is a great backup.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoes View Post
    It will be interesting to see if they can meet any of these needs in FA, I think they will go BPA on ILB, OLB or CB in R1. We still need a TE, McDonald is good but injuries and drops linger in my mind plus what is he going to cost next year? James has improved but he still not what we need but is a great backup.
    I just don't think that FA should be counted on for anything more than average depth. A player like Alualu is about the best you can hope for. Haden popping on the market at just the right time and having just the right motivation is almost unbelievably rare.

    Looking at the FA OLBs and CBs, there are like 3 guys on each list that look like "Wow. That guy would most likely really make the defense better!" Then you realize that there is almost (I guess never say "never") no way those players make it to the open market. One guy that has a shot is Darby the CB from the Eagles who are going to have to shed significant salary.

    But overall, the guys that would seem most likely to come available would be shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic kind of signings. In other words, what is the point of signing Coty Sensabaugh 2.0 when you have version 1.0 on your roster and you already know how to integrate him with the rest of your defense?

    I think they could and should sign some FAs that help out in 2nd and 3rd string depth at key spots. But ILBs, CBs, and pass-rushers that would help the defense take another step up are almost assuredly going to have to come in the draft.

    I think the Steelers will prioritize CBs and edge players over ILBs

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread


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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Some one said it upthread, the best thing that can happen is to have the offense just jump out to a lead. Falcons game, Ravens win, and Panthers win that is exactly what happened and it aids the defense immensely.
    And the converse of that would be the Chiefs game, where we fell behind 21-0, came all the way back to tie it at halftime, tied it up again at 28-28 in the 3rd and then wound up losing by 5. We also never had the lead in that game either.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    And the converse of that would be the Chiefs game, where we fell behind 21-0, came all the way back to tie it at halftime, tied it up again at 28-28 in the 3rd and then wound up losing by 5. We also never had the lead in that game either.
    No Joe Haden and the defense was reeling in that game. Couldn't get off the field at all



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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tube517 View Post
    No Joe Haden and the defense was reeling in that game. Couldn't get off the field on 3rd down.
    In fact, the Chiefs did not need the 3rd down to dominate ... KC only had 5 3rd down in this game!!!! .. They were 2/5

    I have never seen a team have had very few 3rd down in a game, it was so easy for them in this game.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    In fact, the Chiefs did not need the 3rd down to dominate ... KC only had 5 3rd down in this game!!!! .. They were 2/5

    I have never seen a team have had very few 3rd down in a game, it was so easy for them in this game.
    I didn't see the stats but I changed my post lol. I knew they steamrolled our defense.



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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    I would say that 100% the R1 pick has to be a CB.

    Bostic isn’t great, but he’s better than our corners.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread


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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    I said it was a horrible mistake to hold on to him after Jacksonville, and its looking all the more apparent. He is (among other reasons) going to send this season into a trainwreck.

    It doesn't make a lick of difference who is behind center, the D is going to be torched by anyone. Tyrod, Bortles, Ryan, Fitzpatrick, it doesn't matter. Anyone will look like a HOF'er against Butler's D. When you have a Defense this sloppy and terrible, there's no chance to win.

    Get effed, Butler.
    Definition of insanity.

  24. #354

    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Unless we have someone who ownership believes can do better than Butler, I'm okay holding on to him until the end of the year. What I won't be okay with is holding him to the end of the year only to see us promote from within. If we want to do that, then fire Butler now and give the keys to the next guy to see what he might be able to do against the Pats* and the Saints.


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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    Unless we have someone who ownership believes can do better than Butler, I'm okay holding on to him until the end of the year. What I won't be okay with is holding him to the end of the year only to see us promote from within. If we want to do that, then fire Butler now and give the keys to the next guy to see what he might be able to do against the Pats* and the Saints.
    I really hope they don't promote from within. None of the defensive assistants are performing at an adequate level

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    I really hope they don't promote from within. None of the defensive assistants are performing at an adequate level
    Agree that they shouldn’t promote from within. Didn’t work with Butler and as you said, none of the assistants have distinguished themselves.
    It would be more of the same.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    I really hope they don't promote from within. None of the defensive assistants are performing at an adequate level
    I don’t think they will and that is also the reason Butler will not be fired until the off season. Just no one to replace him with in house.

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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I don’t think they will and that is also the reason Butler will not be fired until the off season. Just no one to replace him with in house.
    I heard some pretty insightful stuff out of the waterboy a couple weeks back.....

  29. #359

    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    I really hope they don't promote from within. None of the defensive assistants are performing at an adequate level
    I agree. I want to see fresh blood in there rather than recycled Cowher/Tomlin people.

    Wait . . . there's a joke in there somewhere . . . TOMLIN CAN'T WIN WITH COWHER'S PLAYERS AS COACHES!

    Okay, in all seriousness, as I said, I want to see someone new. In my previous post, I was just stating that if they were thinking of promoting from within, then it should happen now rather than in the offseason. Not that I want it, but at least we'd be able to see if the person could actually gameplan.


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    Re: The Keith Butler Thread

    Rex Ryan anyone?

    "Zeds dead baby, Zeds dead." - Butch

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