Josh Dobbs

[GoSlash27]

I personally take my car to the new guy and see what kind of service he offers and judge his abilities based on how well the job gets done moving forward ...

Suppose it's not *your* car, but rather your boss' car and you may well get fired if it gets screwed up. Who do you go with then?

And your analogy is suspect because it assumes that 'a QB is a QB' and the only factor in the equation is athletic ability. The backup role demands maturity, experience, and leadership, even moreso than a starter.
Rudolph and Dobbs are not prepared to do that at this point in their career. Jones is.

Finally, I think you're arguing what you believe "should" happen rather than what you believe "will" happen, and you're arguing with people who literally have no say in the matter.

Best,
-Slashy

[GoSlash27]

Take that start away and he is 2-2 as a starter.

Hollywood,
Ah, but we're not talking about "starter", we're talking about "backup". The starter has the luxury of practice. The backup doesn't. The starter can afford to screw up and take time to get into rhythm. The backup can't.
You really can't evaluate a backup by their starting stats.

Best,
-Slashy

[GBMelBlount]

I’m sorry but I refuse to include that Jones’s stats in a no pressure game against a winless team. Take that start away and he is 2-2 as a starter. Okay. His yards per attempt were like 9 and then 6.5. Okay. His ratings were 77 and 86.

He’s okay, almost.

He also had better defenses those years.

But he’s (Jones) still probably the safe bet.

I agree.

On a side note, wasn't Ben losing to that same winless team until the very end of the game?

[DesertSteel]

You really can't evaluate a backup by their starting stats.

Wut??? What else are you going to evaluate them on? How they hold the clipboard? Your backup needs to be ready to play 2-3 games a year in the NFL; if he can't perform in that scenario he doesn't need to be your #2. Developmental QBs are best suited for #3's, but your #2 needs to be able to start and play average/slightly above average.

[GoSlash27]

DesertSteel,
You judge them by their ability to step into a game cold and not screw the pooch. Their knowledge of the offense (players and playbook), maturity, poise, confidence, and ability to inspire and lead the offense in an emergency. And yeah... somewhere in there not being an awful QB.
The problem is the stats themselves don't say who is a good backup and who's not, especially if you start cherry picking which stats count and which don't.
My entire point is that with the stats on record, we know that we are not "screwed" if Ben goes down because Jones has proven that he can hold the fort. What's more important is that he has the confidence of the offense, coaching staff, and head office to step in in a crisis and employ the entire playbook and exercise judgement.
So yeah... I don't see Jones' job in jeopardy this year. Perhaps next year. In the meantime, I see Rudolph and Dobbs in competition with each other for the "development QB" role.

Best,
-Slashy

[AtlantaDan]

What's more important is that he has the confidence of the offense

^^^^^^^^
This

One of the themes of the offseason is to try to cut down on the drama from 2017.

Ben already pitched a fit when Rudolph was drafted. Ben likes Jones for reasons including Landry never having been a threat to replace him.

Moreover, the O-line probably likes another vet like Jones being available to step in - when Ben replaced Maddox in 2004, this was the response of Alan Faneca

Co-captain Alan Faneca sounded less than thrilled when he discussed the prospect of a rookie leading the charge against the Dolphins.
"Exciting?" Faneca replied to a question with disbelief in his voice, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reported. "No, it's not exciting. Do you want to go work with some little young kid who's just out of college?

http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=1885470

Since a major goal is to keep the franchise QB happy (see, e.g., Haley gone/Fichtner in) keeping Landry around to avoid passive aggressive comments from Ben if Jones is moved should not be underestimated as a factor in Jones staying.

[DesertSteel]

DesertSteel,
You judge them by their ability to step into a game cold and not screw the pooch. Their knowledge of the offense (players and playbook), maturity, poise, confidence, and ability to inspire and lead the offense in an emergency. And yeah... somewhere in there not being an awful QB.
The problem is the stats themselves don't say who is a good backup and who's not, especially if you start cherry picking which stats count and which don't.
My entire point is that with the stats on record, we know that we are not "screwed" if Ben goes down because Jones has proven that he can hold the fort. What's more important is that he has the confidence of the offense, coaching staff, and head office to step in in a crisis and employ the entire playbook and exercise judgement.
So yeah... I don't see Jones' job in jeopardy this year. Perhaps next year. In the meantime, I see Rudolph and Dobbs in competition with each other for the "development QB" role.

Best,
-Slashy

Then the argument is not that stats don't matter but that it's a different set of stats, or at the least weighted differently. To that I agree. For a backup, I'd expect a game manager, not a gunslinger. 18/28 for 195-220 yards with 1-2 TDs and 0-1 INTs. That's a good stat line for a backup.

But the only stat that matters is W/L..........

[Dwinsgames]

When your franchise QB is 36 years old and it took you an eternity to find him it is and always will be my contention you do not cut young guys with potential to become your next starter to keep a guy you know that isnt ...


ok I am done with this topic we are all set in our beliefs and nobody is going to change any of our minds LOL

BUT...

some of these guys had multiple stints as starters trying to find " the guy"
I remember this exhausting search for a couple decades so I am just not willing to throw away a potential starter for a guy who I know is not 1

Cliff Stoudt
Mark Malone
David Woodley
Scott Campbell
Bubby Brister
Steve Bono
David Woodley
Todd Blackledge
Neil O'Donnell
Mike Tomczak
Jim Miller
Kordell Stewart
Kent Graham
Tommy Maddox

[GoSlash27]

When your franchise QB is 36 years old and it took you an eternity to find him it is and always will be my contention you do not cut young guys with potential to become your next starter to keep a guy you know that isnt ...


ok I am done with this topic we are all set in our beliefs and nobody is going to change any of our minds LOL

DWins,
Fair 'nuff, but it's not "my" mind that would need changed on the matter. I'm just trying to explain what I think the Steelers will do, and why. We'll all find out about the final roster together in a couple weeks.

Best,
-Slashy

[GoSlash27]

Then the argument is not that stats don't matter but that it's a different set of stats, or at the least weighted differently.

Desert Steel,
My argument is that the stats can only show how good a QB is at being a QB in general. They show absolutely nothing AFA the attributes that are required in a good backup. I just look at the stats to see whether we can get by with the guy under center or not. The record tells me that we can.

Since a major goal is to keep the franchise QB happy (see, e.g., Haley gone/Fichtner in) keeping Landry around to avoid passive aggressive comments from Ben if Jones is moved should not be underestimated as a factor in Jones staying.

Even more than this, a good backup needs to not just accept the role of backup, but actually embrace it. He's got to be all- in and immerse himself in every facet of the job... which includes carrying the clipboard. He has to accept that he's never going to be the starter, but is totally okay with that because he realizes the importance of his contribution... even if maybe nobody else outside the locker room does.

Rookies have a hard time settling into the job due to their ego, but grizzled old vets come to realize the importance of the job, even if there's no glamor associated with it.

Best,
-Slashy

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Was Dobbs first TD to Washington a well thrown pass, or did #13 make a great catch to save the QB on an underthrown pass? Was the 2nd TD to Washington any different?? Did the INT that Dobbs threw kind of hang in the air, similar to the one in the first preseason game??

I dont understand why all the optimism for Dobbs. It still looks like the best part of his game is running.

[pczach]

Was Dobbs first TD to Washington a well thrown pass, or did #13 make a great catch to save the QB on an underthrown pass? Was the 2nd TD to Washington any different?? Did the INT that Dobbs threw kind of hang in the air, similar to the one in the first preseason game??

I dont understand why all the optimism for Dobbs. It still looks like the best part of his game is running.

How do you think Dobbs's play compares to Landry Jones's play at the beginning of his second year?

Everyone is comparing Dobbs to the Landry Jones we see right now, and Jones may be a little better.....but do you remember what a shit show Jones was for much of his first three years? I contend that Dobbs is showing much more than Jones did at this stage of his pro career. He also adds the athleticism to the position. The RPO game is in play with Dobbs as well which offers some other possibilities as it changes the way defenses play as they react to things and gives quarterbacks more opportunities for open throws. And since the quarterback needs to be defended in the run game...the numbers game is different on the back end. There hasn't been much of that put into the offense yet, but if there was an RPO package, Dobbs would be the man for the job and give teams something else to prepare for.

[GoSlash27]

Everyone is comparing Dobbs to the Landry Jones we see right now

I'm certainly not.

Best,
-Slashy

[DesertSteel]

Was Dobbs first TD to Washington a well thrown pass, or did #13 make a great catch to save the QB on an underthrown pass? Was the 2nd TD to Washington any different?? Did the INT that Dobbs threw kind of hang in the air, similar to the one in the first preseason game??

I dont understand why all the optimism for Dobbs. It still looks like the best part of his game is running.

I couldn’t agree more. I think the coaching staff will see it the same way come cut time.

[AtlantaDan]

How do you think Dobbs's play compares to Landry Jones's play at the beginning of his second year?

Everyone is comparing Dobbs to the Landry Jones we see right now, and Jones may be a little better.....but do you remember what a shit show Jones was for much of his first three years? I contend that Dobbs is showing much more than Jones did at this stage of his pro career. He also adds the athleticism to the position. The RPO game is in play with Dobbs as well which offers some other possibilities as it changes the way defenses play as they react to things and gives quarterbacks more opportunities for open throws. And since the quarterback needs to be defended in the run game...the numbers game is different on the back end. There hasn't been much of that put into the offense yet, but if there was an RPO package, Dobbs would be the man for the job and give teams something else to prepare for.

Of course in a win now season it is how their level of play compares right now since Ben is the starter unless he gets injured.

As far as Dobbs running ability, we are not talking about Lamar Jackson here. As long as Ben can play it is highly doubtful Tomlin and Fichtner are going to be installing a package of RPO plays for Dobbs to unleash during the game (assuming they do not run him 10 times this weekend along with 10 more in the final preseason game in the hope he gets banged up and can be put on IR until Jones is gone after this season).

It is frustrating that the Steelers probably will be letting a 4th round QB pick in 2017 who is not terrible go since I doubt he will be able to be stashed on the practice squad (could be worse - could be Denver having wasted a first round pick on Paxton Lynch). But once Rudolph was drafted Dobbs days as a Steelers were regarded by most as drawing down quickly.

[GBMelBlount]

Could Dobbs be converted to receiver?

[tube517]

Could Dobbs be converted to receiver?

Nope. S/ILB hybrid.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

How do you think Dobbs's play compares to Landry Jones's play at the beginning of his second year?

Everyone is comparing Dobbs to the Landry Jones we see right now, and Jones may be a little better.....but do you remember what a shit show Jones was for much of his first three years? I contend that Dobbs is showing much more than Jones did at this stage of his pro career. He also adds the athleticism to the position. The RPO game is in play with Dobbs as well which offers some other possibilities as it changes the way defenses play as they react to things and gives quarterbacks more opportunities for open throws. And since the quarterback needs to be defended in the run game...the numbers game is different on the back end. There hasn't been much of that put into the offense yet, but if there was an RPO package, Dobbs would be the man for the job and give teams something else to prepare for.

My last statement was not comparing Dobbs to Jones. I just thought that I saw underthrown passes that lead to one INT and 2 others that would have been INT's, if not for spectacular efforts by James Washington to wrestle the football away from the CB's. I'm just waiting for a poster here to put aside the stat line and explain to my why those two passes by Dobbs were good?

Also, can you please explain what you mean by the statement that "The RPO game is in play with Dobbs as well..."? Why is it not in play with any other QB on the roster?? or any other QB in the NFL for that matter?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I couldn’t agree more. I think the coaching staff will see it the same way come cut time.

As I said before, Dobbs looks more comfortable this season and that is to be expected with a year of being in NFL system. I think he can throw the long ball kind of like how Bengals Jeff Blake used to, but for some reason I see inconsistent velocity and accuracy on the intermediate throws, which doesn't impress and has lead to INT's and defended passes in the preseason. Its also lead to 2 amazing catches by Washington.

The best part of Dobbs game to me still looks like that he has speed to scramble and get yards when he cant find anybody open, but I don't think that is the way most scouts evaluate QB strengths. Sure he can continue to develop as a passer, but IMO Rudolph is a better passer and just needs that year to adapt to the speed of the NFL. I think the Steelers will keep 1 backup and 1 developing youngster on the 53 rather than 2 developing QB's and 0 qualified backups.....but we will see in a couple weeks I guess.

[GBMelBlount]

As I said before, Dobbs looks more comfortable this season and that is to be expected with a year of being in NFL system. I think he can throw the long ball kind of like how Bengals Jeff Blake used to, but for some reason I see inconsistent velocity and accuracy on the intermediate throws, which doesn't impress and has lead to INT's and defended passes in the preseason. Its also lead to 2 amazing catches by Washington.

The best part of Dobbs game to me still looks like that he has speed to scramble and get yards when he cant find anybody open, but I don't think that is the way most scouts evaluate QB strengths. Sure he can continue to develop as a passer, but IMO Rudolph is a better passer and just needs that year to adapt to the speed of the NFL.

I think the Steelers will keep 1 backup and 1 developing youngster on the 53 rather than 2 developing QB's and 0 qualified backups.....but we will see in a couple weeks I guess.

I agree with your thoughts.

[pczach]

My last statement was not comparing Dobbs to Jones. I just thought that I saw underthrown passes that lead to one INT and 2 others that would have been INT's, if not for spectacular efforts by James Washington to wrestle the football away from the CB's. I'm just waiting for a poster here to put aside the stat line and explain to my why those two passes by Dobbs were good?

Also, can you please explain what you mean by the statement that "The RPO game is in play with Dobbs as well..."? Why is it not in play with any other QB on the roster?? or any other QB in the NFL for that matter?

I can also ask you to explain how the touchdown pass in the first preseason game by Landry Jones was a good throw?

As for the RPO stuff. Sure, anyone can run it, but Dobbs is best equipped to run it and commanding the attention of defenders to honor the run with the ball in his hand, which is what helps create passing lanes and open receivers.

[SteelMember]

I think rolling him out of the pocket is more about him getting a cleaner view downfield and getting him a little more time and space to make that decision to throw. Not necessarily a true rpo.
Either way, I think he's on the outside looking in for a roster spot. I really can't see 4 QB's on the roster. Too much of a luxury with the voids we need fill. He's probably PS material at this point for us.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I can also ask you to explain how the touchdown pass in the first preseason game by Landry Jones was a good throw?

As for the RPO stuff. Sure, anyone can run it, but Dobbs is best equipped to run it and commanding the attention of defenders to honor the run with the ball in his hand, which is what helps create passing lanes and open receivers.

OK, but again I am not making this about Jones, although it appears as if you would like me to. The long TD by JuJu from Jones in that game was a defensive offside and it appears that Landry Jones knew it was a free play and quickly decided to take a shot at the deep route in the play. He obviously didn't hit JuJu in stride and underthrew it, but he knew there was no risk of an INT obviously.

Below is an explanation of an RPO from an NFL offensive lineman Mitchell Schwartz. It gives the QB the option to either handoff the football to a runner or to pass to a receiver. Not really designed to keep the football in QB hands and have him get hit. There is even a video in the below link. The Steelers can run RPO with Ben at QB as he is just handing it off or passing it.

A Run-Pass Option (RPO) is a called run play with a pass option. It can be a DE, a LB, or just a specific alignment the QB is looking for. The OL blocks for the run the entire way, and the QB makes a decision pre or post snap (depending on which variation is called) to run/throw.

https://www.boston.com/sports/new-en...ll-terminology

[st33lersguy]

Dobbs in year 2 is looking comfortable. It took to year 4 before Landry Jones graduated to not a total trainwreck all of the time

[AtlantaDan]

In his online chat today P-G reporter Ray Fittipaldo shares my view on how it ends up for Dobbs

Your best guess on the Steelers releasing Dobbs versus Dobbs having a phantom injury that puts him on IR?
Ray Fittipaldo: Phantom injury to IR. I've said that since April so I'm not changing my mind now even though others have picked up on the possibility....

Dobbs has looked better at this point than Rudolph but having said that, I still think they keep Rudolph and Dobbs will be gone or practice squad. Your thoughts?
Ray Fittipaldo: Dobbs will be cut or placed on IR....

How high of a draft pick could the Steelers get for Dobbs?
Ray Fittipaldo: Why would an opposing team give up a draft pick for Dobbs when they could get him for nothing if he is released?

So be on the lookout for something like this for Dobbs in the last preseason game



FWIW I also share Fittipaldo's opinion in response to this question

Should we try to trade Dobbs for Khalil Mack?
Ray Fittipaldo: Yes!



http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201808200109

[pczach]

OK, but again I am not making this about Jones, although it appears as if you would like me to. The long TD by JuJu from Jones in that game was a defensive offside and it appears that Landry Jones knew it was a free play and quickly decided to take a shot at the deep route in the play. He obviously didn't hit JuJu in stride and underthrew it, but he knew there was no risk of an INT obviously.

Below is an explanation of an RPO from an NFL offensive lineman Mitchell Schwartz. It gives the QB the option to either handoff the football to a runner or to pass to a receiver. Not really designed to keep the football in QB hands and have him get hit. There is even a video in the below link. The Steelers can run RPO with Ben at QB as he is just handing it off or passing it.

A Run-Pass Option (RPO) is a called run play with a pass option. It can be a DE, a LB, or just a specific alignment the QB is looking for. The OL blocks for the run the entire way, and the QB makes a decision pre or post snap (depending on which variation is called) to run/throw.

https://www.boston.com/sports/new-en...ll-terminology

I know how the RPO is used by most teams in the NFL. It's not the zone read like many colleges used where the quarterbacks keep the ball and run with it often. It's a variation of it that gets the ball out of the quarterback's hands so he doesn't get punished and risk injury. I get it. Dobbs played in a similar system in college. He's an athletic guy which also gives him the added ability to use his feet when nothing is there on the play or to exploit a defense. The play doesn't have to end because the quarterback is not athletic enough to make something happen himself. He can use his feet more to actually run the ball more like Marcus Mariota. He's not the athlete that Mariota is, but he's capable of more with the run game within the system. That's all I'm saying. There is more than one way to run it, and you use the gifts of the people playing quarterback in it to tailor the offense to them when they're in the game.

All I asked you is what you thought of Dobbs at this stage of his career compared to Jones. It was a legitimate question that I asked because I truly wanted to know your thoughts on it. It's relevant because it could show what Dobbs could develop into. Why so defensive when I was only asking a simple question?


What exactly are you trying to teach me with the link? I know what an RPO is. I also know that the Eagles ran a shit load of it last year. It's been used in the NFL for a few years now. The Steelers ran some of it the other night against the Packers....and Dobbs used his feet to run with the ball a couple times. They ran a variation of it.


I think Dobbs would run it better because he adds the running ability to the equation that Jones cannot. I don't think either one of these guys is going to be the future starter of this team. I like Dobbs because IMO he can do more and offers more of a change of pace to Ben than Jones does. I have no idea if I'm right. Only time will tell.

Here's a link on what the RPO is. It's was written about 6 months ago, but it actually explains something about the offense and how it works while also talking about how the Steelers may use it in Fichtner's offense. None of this article really talks about using Dobbs within the system, but I thought it was a good read.

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...y-fichtner-nfl

And again...How is this not about all the quarterbacks including Jones when they are competing for roster spots?

Here's Landry Jones throwing 4 interceptions against the Eagles two years ago.



All I'm saying is that I don't see Dobbs as being inferior to Jones, particularly at the same stage of development.

You apparently do....and that's ok if that's your opinion.

Jones threw a lot of INTs, and then he got better. I haven't seen any of the disaster performances yet from Dobbs that we've seen from Jones, but they may be coming. We'll see.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

@pzach, I posted saying that the Washington TD's were underthrown footballs by Dobbs and I dont exactly see why all the hype. You then start asking me to compare Dobbs to Jones, when my question was not about Jones but about Dobbs. Its nothing defensive, but rather just keeping the topic on point. Below is my thoughts of Jones vs Dobbs year 2.

Landry Jones in year 2 showed good command of the playbook and understanding of where the ball was supposed to go, but I noticed that as he progressed thru his reads he didnt move his feet well in the direction of his throw and often didnt have a good base when passing. He seemed to sail some passes when he didnt have a good base and some of those were INT's. He looked like a pocket passer with a strong arm, but really needed improvement and consistency with footwork to become better passer IMO.

Josh Dobbs in year 2 has shown more calmness and poise in the pocket. He seems to complete the open throws or short crossers with accuracy, he had a nice 15 yrd dig route to Washington in game 1, but his intermediate passes, deep outs seem inconsistent and at times hang in the air for INT, or underthrows. He moves his base well with his throws, but I just dont think he has the arm strength Jones does. When his first couple reads are not there, he scrambles for yardage, not as much scramble to look for open receivers.

Summation: year 2 Landry Jones looks like a pocket passer with a strong arm that needs some better mechanics to be a better QB. Year 2 Josh Dobbs looks to have an adequate arm and good mechanics, but doesnt make the throws that require a strong arm with consistency and is better off running the football than trying to throw a 30 yard crossing pattern or flag route to the wide side of the field.

I'm glad that you understand what a RPO is, as by your comment it seemed as you were pointing to the fact that an athletic QB is needed to run RPO. As for Dobbs, I dont know why we even care if our potential backup QB is suited to RPO, as he wont see the field much. Honestly, I think Josh Dobbs has the potential to have a career like Anthony Wright did, but Wright had a stronger arm IMO.

As for disaster performances, its not always the stats that coaches evaluate. If Dobbs passes were intended for Marcus Tucker instead of James Washington, then its likely a 3INT game on the stat sheet. Coaches will evaluate the work, detail and effort that leads up to the play as much as the actual play or result. Fans may think Dobbs played great, but I bet Randy Fichtner knows that the QB left some throws short and got bailed out big time.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I'm very Impressed with Dobbs these first two games! I think he could handle being the 2 QB now. Depends on what you want as a back up to Ben. Jones that will be safe and maybe win a game or Dobbs that can outright win the game ?

[Cyphon25]

What exactly are you trying to teach me with the link? I know what an RPO is. I also know that the Eagles ran a shit load of it last year. It's been used in the NFL for a few years now. The Steelers ran some of it the other night against the Packers....and Dobbs used his feet to run with the ball a couple times. They ran a variation of it.

I know I wasn't involved but just from an outside perspective reading the conversation I thought you were using the wrong term. Granted I don't know if I am accurate or not but the impression I have is that an RPO (and specifically the running part of it) involves a running back running and not a QB. So pointing out Dobbs mobility in relation to RPO's seems irrelevant if that is the correct idea behind an RPO (again, I am not 100% sure on it). It is either you hand to the RB or throw a quick pass. The QB isn't supposed to be running. Dobbs mobility would be more suited to the college style option.

[Mojouw]

All of this scheme and mechanics discussion is great but somewhat immaterial to the larger point. Namely which backup QBs allow a team to run their offense-whatever that may be.

Jones processes the game fairly quickly but seems to choose checkdowns over pushing the ball downfield. When he does throw an aggressive pass he has a track record of turnovers.

Dobbs and Rudolph both still process slower than they should. Both tend to wait for the target to come open rather than anticipating. Rudolph to a bigger degree as he is a rookie and used to the wide open receivers that abound in his college offense. Both also have mechanical issues to correct. All that being said, Dobbs and Rudolph demonstrate a greater willingness to attack down the field.

Now, why is that? Landry may be told to play it safe. Dobbs and Rudolph may feel a greater need to show something big to make the team. I don’t know.

But since the team is kinda screwed if Ben goes out for more than a game or two, I would roll the dice on the kids who don’t seem to have a conscience when it comes to challenging defenses to make a big play. But that’s just me.