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Thread: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    As I’ve posted in the 300 other James Harrison threads...

    Q: Would you have really benched Watt in favor of Harrison?

    A: Nope.


    (And, before you bring up Dupree, remember that as good as Harrison is, he can’t play OLB from the other side.)

    who said anything about benching ?

    active 5 games and playing 32 snaps had zero impact on keeping Watt fresh or saving Harrison ...

    point is Tomlin anointed Watt and lied to Harrison ...

    the Lie is what created the entire issue ....

    not being able to compete created the issue ....

    allow the man to do his job and be honest with him and there is no issue ...


    what would Watt have looked like had he not been played as much as a rookie come playoff time ?

    7,8,9 10 less snaps per game doesn't sound like much but in the NFL snaps being so cumulative make a difference come week 16,17,18 especially with rookies
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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    In Week 17, Harrison had 3 solo tackles, 2 assists, and 2 sacks. Watt had 6 solo tackles, 2 assists, and 1 sack.

    In the playoffs Harrison had 7 tackles and 1 assist in 3 games. Watt had 1 tackle and 1 assist in 1 game.

    I'm not seeing a whole hell of a lot of difference here.

    In Week 16 Bud Dupree (looks like he didn't play Week 17? I don't remember) had 5 tackles and 1 assist. In the playoff game, Dupree had 3 tackles and 1 assist.

    Now I realize that these stats fail to account for where those tackles were on the field, other responsibilities such as setting the edge, backside pursuit, containment, pass coverage etc. But it looks like, at least to me, the real sticking point here was that Harrison couldn't or wouldn't play Dupree's side. That was (and maybe still is) the path to snaps in the OLB rotation.

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    I'm not sure they're giving anyone the chance to supplant Bud... they hitched their wagon to his potential and will likely ride it out - sink or swim (to mix my metaphors).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    the Lie is what created the entire issue ....
    The lie? What is this Little League? Maybe James should have had his mom intercede for him to get more playing time. It's a grown man game. Do you think James would have been upset if they told TJ he was playing but put Harrison in instead? It was absolutely, 100% the right decision to play Watt over Harrison. TJ is the future, and in the interim was one of their best defenders last year. And if Harrison still has so much left in the tank, teams will be beating down his door to sign him for 2018.

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I'm not sure they're giving anyone the chance to supplant Bud... they hitched their wagon to his potential and will likely ride it out - sink or swim (to mix my metaphors).
    You make a good point! They do seem oddly entranced with Dupree.

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    You make a good point! They do seem oddly entranced with Dupree.
    At least he's a hair better than Jarvis!

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I'm not sure they're giving anyone the chance to supplant Bud... they hitched their wagon to his potential and will likely ride it out - sink or swim (to mix my metaphors).

    - - - Updated - - -


    The lie? What is this Little League? Maybe James should have had his mom intercede for him to get more playing time. It's a grown man game. Do you think James would have been upset if they told TJ he was playing but put Harrison in instead? It was absolutely, 100% the right decision to play Watt over Harrison. TJ is the future, and in the interim was one of their best defenders last year. And if Harrison still has so much left in the tank, teams will be beating down his door to sign him for 2018.
    a man is only as good as his word

    Tomlins word has been proven to be worth about as much as a half cup of day old cold coffee ...

    You do not tell a man something and then not follow through , maybe that's part of what is wrong with the world today , People do not keep their word and they spew shit they have no intentions of backing up just to keep you quiet in the interim ...

    for the record nobody has suggested Harrison should have been named the starter , but I think most everyone believes battles should be won via competition not anointment

    https://triblive.com/sports/steelers...eelers-defense
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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    who said anything about benching ?

    active 5 games and playing 32 snaps had zero impact on keeping Watt fresh or saving Harrison ...

    point is Tomlin anointed Watt and lied to Harrison ...

    the Lie is what created the entire issue ....

    not being able to compete created the issue ....

    allow the man to do his job and be honest with him and there is no issue ...


    what would Watt have looked like had he not been played as much as a rookie come playoff time ?

    7,8,9 10 less snaps per game doesn't sound like much but in the NFL snaps being so cumulative make a difference come week 16,17,18 especially with rookies
    Valid points.

    Here’s my take on the situation.

    1) James Harrison was battling a back injury. He was allowed to rehab (not practice) during the preseason.

    2) Things went to shit.

    Harrison claims that he was lied to. We’re not sure if he was or wasn’t lied to, because we weren’t there... and while Harrison has aired his grievances through the media, Tomlin hasn’t retorted.

    IMO, the plan was indeed to give James two series (7-10 snaps) per game. But, because Watt faired so well in the preseason, he was given the starting job... and James immediately (per his own recollection of events) revolted/starting being a disruptive force during team meetings.

    IMO, instead of sticking to the original plan (7-10 snaps), Tomlin decided to discipline James. What better way to discipline a man like James, but to take away playing time. A fine? Harrison doesn’t care about money. Losing playing time? Yep, that’s how you discipline James. Alas... James responded by digging his heels in, which brought on more discipline from Tomlin (via less playing time), which brought about more heel-digging... until James was released.

    What I find interesting is that people site this specific incident as an example of Tomlin’s lack of discipline, when it’s actually one of Tomlin’s biggest examples of disciplining a player.

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Valid points.

    Here’s my take on the situation.

    1) James Harrison was battling a back injury. He was allowed to rehab (not practice) during the preseason.

    2) Things went to shit.

    Harrison claims that he was lied to. We’re not sure if he was or wasn’t lied to, because we weren’t there... and while Harrison has aired his grievances through the media, Tomlin hasn’t retorted.

    IMO, the plan was indeed to give James two series (7-10 snaps) per game. But, because Watt faired so well in the preseason, he was given the starting job... and James immediately (per his own recollection of events) revolted/starting being a disruptive force during team meetings.

    IMO, instead of sticking to the original plan (7-10 snaps), Tomlin decided to discipline James. What better way to discipline a man like James, but to take away playing time. A fine? Harrison doesn’t care about money. Losing playing time? Yep, that’s how you discipline James. Alas... James responded by digging his heels in, which brought on more discipline from Tomlin (via less playing time), which brought about more heel-digging... until James was released.

    What I find interesting is that people site this specific incident as an example of Tomlin’s lack of discipline, when it’s actually one of Tomlin’s biggest examples of disciplining a player.

    oh we know he lied to James just like he lied to us , see link above your reply and there is a video I posted a few months back on this very topic ( in yet a thread that who knows where it is cause there are so many like threads ) in reply to Hawkman with Tomlins mouth we can hear the words come out that James will be ready and there is a plan for James so he can be fresh as the season wears on ... James is a competitor and he will be ready , doesnt need camp snaps yada yada yada ....
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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    oh we know he lied to James just like he lied to us , see link above your reply and there is a video I posted a few months back on this very topic ( in yet a thread that who knows where it is cause there are so many like threads ) in reply to Hawkman with Tomlins mouth we can hear the words come out that James will be ready and there is a plan for James so he can be fresh as the season wears on ... James is a competitor and he will be ready , doesnt need camp snaps yada yada yada ....
    Right.

    Like I said, that was indeed the plan.

    James was disciplined during the Browns game. If James had acted appropriately, the plan would still have been to give him 7-10 snaps per game. Instead, James responded (by his own admission) by sleeping during team meetings the following week... bringing on more (& more) discipline.

    #visciouscycle
    #downwardspiral

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    oh we know he lied to James just like he lied to us , see link above your reply and there is a video I posted a few months back on this very topic ( in yet a thread that who knows where it is cause there are so many like threads ) in reply to Hawkman with Tomlins mouth we can hear the words come out that James will be ready and there is a plan for James so he can be fresh as the season wears on ... James is a competitor and he will be ready , doesnt need camp snaps yada yada yada ....
    how much of that is on Tomlin compared to Joey Porter in your opinion?

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    how much of that is on Tomlin compared to Joey Porter in your opinion?
    damn good question ....

    I have always felt Porter was envious of Harrison and held a grudge towards James for making him expendable all those years ago ...

    Porter was a good player no question But Harrison was on another level IMO and I honestly believe Porter will never be half the coach or decision maker that he was a player ...

    that said he could be a bigger part of this than Tomlin but ultimately Tomlin has the final word ....

    That Final word however I am not sure Tomlin does much of that , I think he entrusts his staff to make most of those calls ...

    I could be wrong but it is my belief Tomlin is more of an administrator and mouth piece than anything else ..the devil is in the details and I think that is left to the coordinators and staff more than anything ( I could be wrong )
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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    a man is only as good as his word

    Tomlins word has been proven to be worth about as much as a half cup of day old cold coffee ...

    You do not tell a man something and then not follow through , maybe that's part of what is wrong with the world today , People do not keep their word and they spew shit they have no intentions of backing up just to keep you quiet in the interim ...

    for the record nobody has suggested Harrison should have been named the starter , but I think most everyone believes battles should be won via competition not anointment

    https://triblive.com/sports/steelers...eelers-defense
    Well have you heard Tomlin's side of the story? You're suggesting that Harrison is credible based on what? His abusive background? His childish behavior?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Right.

    Like I said, that was indeed the plan.

    James was disciplined during the Browns game. If James had acted appropriately, the plan would still have been to give him 7-10 snaps per game. Instead, James responded (by his own admission) by sleeping during team meetings the following week... bringing on more (& more) discipline.

    #visciouscycle
    #downwardspiral
    Exactly.

    You tell your 8-year old you're going to take him to the park, but in the interim he throws a temper tantrum because he has to wait. As a result, you decide not to take him. In some people's view, that makes him a liar.

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Well have you heard Tomlin's side of the story? You're suggesting that Harrison is credible based on what? His abusive background? His childish behavior?

    - - - Updated - - -


    Exactly.

    You tell your 8-year old you're going to take him to the park, but in the interim he throws a temper tantrum because he has to wait. As a result, you decide not to take him. In some people's view, that makes him a liar.
    great analogy , if it where true ...

    but the facts in the case do not support your theory

    James was shunned day 1 of training camp and told he was being saved as he worked off to the side of everyone else in non team drills

    he did not walk into camp pouting

    you want to throw 1 abusive incident his face on a MSG board that was never proven in court to try and help support your view point when your star QB has 2 incidents that where much worse ( and never proven either ) those are egg shells I wont dare to walk on I am out
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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    great analogy , if it where true ...

    but the facts in the case do not support your theory

    James was shunned day 1 of training camp and told he was being saved as he worked off to the side of everyone else in non team drills

    he did not walk into camp pouting

    you want to throw 1 abusive incident his face on a MSG board that was never proven in court to try and help support your view point when your star QB has 2 incidents that where much worse ( and never proven either ) those are egg shells I wont dare to walk on I am out
    He didn't pout coming to camp because he thought he was going to be the man. He wasn't. That's life. Watt played too well to take him off the field.

    And the charges against him were dropped because he entered domestic abuse counseling. And I'm not saying I'd take Ben's word for anything either.

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    James was shunned day 1 of training camp and told he was being saved as he worked off to the side of everyone else in non team drills
    James was recovering from a back injury. Allowing him to sit out of drills is not the same as him being shunned.

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Well have you heard Tomlin's side of the story? You're suggesting that Harrison is credible based on what? His abusive background? His childish behavior?

    - - - Updated - - -


    Exactly.

    You tell your 8-year old you're going to take him to the park, but in the interim he throws a temper tantrum because he has to wait. As a result, you decide not to take him. In some people's view, that makes him a liar.
    TOMLIN:
    Exactly. We have never heard Tomlin’s side.

    ANALOGY:
    Nailed it!!! I might add that the 8-year-old then cries to his grandma, and the grandma chastises the parent for “lying.”

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    James was recovering from a back injury. Allowing him to sit out of drills is not the same as him being shunned.
    sorry if I do not buy into the teams " back injury report " go look back through his instagram workouts .... guys who have back injuries do not do anything close to what James was doing ....

    I am not the only one who disbelieved those reports .... https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...o-steelers-nfl
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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    Porter was a good player no question But Harrison was on another level IMO
    I think people sometimes forget how good Porter was and he is kind of written out (at least a little) when it comes to Steelers greats. I know there is more than stats but here is a comparison:

    Sacks - JP 98 > JH 84.5 (single season JP 17.5 > JH 16)
    Force Fumbles - JH 34 > JP 26
    INT - JP 12 > JH 8
    PD - JP 50 > JH 25
    Tackles - JH 793 > JP 667
    JP - 4x Probowl, 2x 1st Team AP, 2x 2nd Team AP, 2000's All Decade Team
    JH - 5x Probowl, 2x 1st Team AP, 2x 2nd Team AP, DPotY

    Harrison played like 6 more career games than Porter. So what you see is both were great blitzers with Porter arguably being better given the numbers. Harrison was stronger against the run and racked up more tackles while Porter was the better cover guy.

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyphon25 View Post
    I think people sometimes forget how good Porter was and he is kind of written out (at least a little) when it comes to Steelers greats. I know there is more than stats but here is a comparison:

    Sacks - JP 98 > JH 84.5 (single season JP 17.5 > JH 16)
    Force Fumbles - JH 34 > JP 26
    INT - JP 12 > JH 8
    PD - JP 50 > JH 25
    Tackles - JH 793 > JP 667
    JP - 4x Probowl, 2x 1st Team AP, 2x 2nd Team AP, 2000's All Decade Team
    JH - 5x Probowl, 2x 1st Team AP, 2x 2nd Team AP, DPotY

    Harrison played like 6 more career games than Porter. So what you see is both were great blitzers with Porter arguably being better given the numbers. Harrison was stronger against the run and racked up more tackles while Porter was the better cover guy.
    the one thing over looked here is Porter always had a guy on the other side and Harrison outside of a couple years of the very good Woodley had basically a warm body filling the spot which allowed teams to slant protections to Harrison's side
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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    the one thing over looked here is Porter always had a guy on the other side and Harrison outside of a couple years of the very good Woodley had basically a warm body filling the spot which allowed teams to slant protections to Harrison's side
    I am sure there is some of that but Porter didn't always have beasts on his side. When he played for the Dolphins and had his 17.5 sack season I think the guy on the other side of him was Matt Roth or some such. And I can't remember but while Porter had some good guys did he ever have a guy Woodleys level opposite him?

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyphon25 View Post
    I am sure there is some of that but Porter didn't always have beasts on his side. When he played for the Dolphins and had his 17.5 sack season I think the guy on the other side of him was Matt Roth or some such. And I can't remember but while Porter had some good guys did he ever have a guy Woodleys level opposite him?
    to be fair Woodley only was noteworthy a few years ....

    whereas Porter had Gildon most of his tenure here and ended with Haggans .... Gildon was the teams all time sack leader

    also in Miami he had a guy named Cameron Wake who didnt hurt his chances of getting after the QB Wake even in his declining years had to be accounted for
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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Seriously? Who did it better, Porter of Harrison debate? For the Steelers it was Harrison, and there is no debate, IMO. Porter could have been an all time great Steeler but ended up changing teams. Porter had a good career in Miami, but did he ever reach the same level of awesome as Harrison did? Sack numbers look great on a stat sheet but Harrison played the position better for what this defense needed. What if for Porter in the long term...???

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    sorry if I do not buy into the teams " back injury report " go look back through his instagram workouts .... guys who have back injuries do not do anything close to what James was doing ....

    I am not the only one who disbelieved those reports .... https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...o-steelers-nfl
    Yep.

    Harrison said that he had a back injury, but kept doing those crazy workouts. Tomlin allowed Harrison to “skip” camp, so that Harrison could “rehab” his back.

    SUMMATION:
    Tomlin is damned is he does, damned if he doesn’t.

    If Tomlin let’s Harrison rehab/sit out, the Tomlin is somehow shunning Harrison. If Tomlin forces Harrison to participate in camp drills, Tomlin looks like a heartless a$$hole.

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Yep.

    Harrison said that he had a back injury, but kept doing those crazy workouts. Tomlin allowed Harrison to “skip” camp, so that Harrison could “rehab” his back.

    SUMMATION:
    Tomlin is damned is he does, damned if he doesn’t.

    If Tomlin let’s Harrison rehab/sit out, the Tomlin is somehow shunning Harrison. If Tomlin forces Harrison to participate in camp drills, Tomlin looks like a heartless a$$hole.

    see I do not have the same recollection , I seem to recall interviews with Harrison that states something along the lines of .. I have not yet been told the plan I am hear and doing what they tell me to do when they tell me its time to get on the field I will get on the field .....when coach wants me out there I will be out there its not my choice I do not make those calls they haven't told me anything yet ....

    not anything saying my back is hurt I cant play or participate or they are holding me out to heal etc
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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Yep.

    Harrison said that he had a back injury, but kept doing those crazy workouts. Tomlin allowed Harrison to “skip” camp, so that Harrison could “rehab” his back.

    SUMMATION:
    Tomlin is damned is he does, damned if he doesn’t.

    If Tomlin let’s Harrison rehab/sit out, the Tomlin is somehow shunning Harrison. If Tomlin forces Harrison to participate in camp drills, Tomlin looks like a heartless a$$hole.
    I guess it's a good thing that Tomlin doesn't care what some stranger on the internet thinks.

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    He isn't wrong, and the proof is in the results and the way the teams play.

    Bottom line, it was the Patriots playing in the Super Bowl again last season, while the Steelers couldn't beat "10-points-against-Buffalo" Blake Bortles.
    Speaking of which, the Malcolm Butler benching was a masterstroke...

    I could only imagine the amount of bitching that would ensue if the Steelers ever lost a SB where Ben goes for 500+ after Tomlin had benched the team's best CB for the game.

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    These are mostly grown men playing a sport for money. Ultimately, the coaching staff has one objective - "Win". Further they are responsible to one person, the team owner that signs their paychecks. Everything is simply noise. Additionally, Tomlin (and really all coaches) has a long record of saying one thing in the press and another behind closed doors.

    For all we know all those "saving" Harrison comments were to hide the fact that he was getting smoked in drills by rookies and veteran back-ups and Tomlin didn't want to throw him under the bus. Overall in 2017 he played well in a limited role against a tackle (Erik Fisher) that he has so screwed up Harrison could likely make Fisher fall over just by walking on the field and he had some "Dong" sacks for NE in Week 17. In the SB he had almost no impact on the game. Then he quietly retired in April. Maybe tape doesn't lie in this case and despite the amazing Instagram workouts and the still ridiculous ability to hold up at the point of attack - there is no place for a purely run stuffing edge defender who has lost his juice in the pass rush and has no ability to play in space?

    I honestly don't know. Maybe Harrison still has a ton of "Deebo" games left in the tank and the ageism that is rampant in sports is biting him in the ass and he decided it wasn't worth it anymore. But to act like we really know what did or didn't take place is silly. Especially since one party is telling their side to anyone that will listen and the other side is not saying a damn thing.

  30. #60
    Senior Member Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute"> Born2Steel's Avatar

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    Re: James Harrison discusses differences in Pats* & Steelers

    Harrison was brought out of retirement to fill a football need. Drafting Watt also addressed that need. James did not come back to 'play' for the Steelers only to sit out or be on the inactive list. This is the part he feels lied to about. It was only a 2 year deal anyway so playing Watt over Harrison was the smart move by the coaching staff. It is unfortunate how Harrison reacted to it but it was the smart thing to do as a team. James fulfilled his role and when it was no longer needed he was more or less cast aside. I get the hurt feelings but this is a business first. I get it yet don't care. Every player reaches this point in their career. Each handles it in their own way. If 'Da Beard' had ended the same as Harrison instead of injured, how would this discussion go? I don't think Keisel would have acted out but we won't ever know that. The way James reacted was selfish and not part of "TEAM". His reasons for it may be justified to a point but it was still selfish. Tomlin has to think about the entire team, next season, and the season after that. It's never about any 1 player, or simply cut and dried promises were made. It is more complicated than 2 guys talking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And....does James Harrison really think Coach Bill would not cut his throat if it meant a perceived upgrade to the team?

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