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Thread: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyphon25 View Post
    I know I will get flak for this but Isaac Redman could do all of those things as well, just not at Bells level (or at least the Steelers didn't trust him to try it). He was a great pass blocker, good hands out of the backfield, good after the catch, and when he had 15 or more carries he had a few 100 yard games.
    in b4 suddenness and glide


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyphon25 View Post
    The part that drives me nuts is when Bell and his agent act like he has invented a new position. The majority of his catches are at or behind the LOS like every other RB in the history of the league. Being asked to block is nothing new either. He is a great at what he does but it makes him a great RB, not a magical unicorn who shoots rainbows out of his butt.
    You're right, he doesn't do anything that's really "different" there. It's not like he's going out on 20-yard routes and making plays that a receiver would make.

    What he DOES do is turn short dump-offs into 10-yard gains better than any other running back in the league right now, and right up there with any running back ever. He does pick you up a buttload of first downs and keeps drives going, which is extremely valuable. But as you said, it's not like he's breaking new ground by doing that. He's just playing the running back position at a very high level.

    If I could keep him on the team, I would, but it wasn't really up to us. Even if we offered him the $17 million he was asking for, I don't think it would've mattered; I don't think he was going to re-sign for any price.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Also, attempting to link Bell and Redman was the highlight of my morning.
    I knew people would love that. Just to reiterate I don't mean to say Redman was as good as Bell or whatever. I only use it to illustrate that outside of being very high level at his position, what he does isn't even unique in Steelers recent history. He is doing things we have asked of other RB's on our roster, just at a higher level. However, he and his agent act like he has invented an entirely new way of playing the game. Even a guy like Redman who people consider a backup at best, was a great pass blocker and had good hands out of the backfield. So why should Bell be paid like a receiver?

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    in b4 suddenness and glide
    2 terms that should never be associated with Redman. Dude was a bulldozer. He didn't have time for glide.

    You're right, he doesn't do anything that's really "different" there. It's not like he's going out on 20-yard routes and making plays that a receiver would make.

    What he DOES do is turn short dump-offs into 10-yard gains better than any other running back in the league right now, and right up there with any running back ever. He does pick you up a buttload of first downs and keeps drives going, which is extremely valuable. But as you said, it's not like he's breaking new ground by doing that. He's just playing the running back position at a very high level.

    If I could keep him on the team, I would, but it wasn't really up to us. Even if we offered him the $17 million he was asking for, I don't think it would've mattered; I don't think he was going to re-sign for any price.
    Exactly. He is a great running back and nothing more. His agent is framing him like some unique new thing the league has never seen before because they throw him a lot of passes. And just to back up what I am talking about I will provide some numbers:

    Bell was targeted 106 times in 2017 and 56 of those targets were at or behind the line. Someone find me another receiver who gets that many balls that close to the QB. That also doesn't account for passes that are just 1 or 2 yards past the line which again, receivers aren't really getting.

    Another key number is that there were 78 receivers in 2017 who caught 30 or more balls. All 78 of them averaged more yards per catch than Bell. He is certainly a volume guy but most definitely not a receiver.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyphon25 View Post
    I knew people would love that. Just to reiterate I don't mean to say Redman was as good as Bell or whatever. I only use it to illustrate that outside of being very high level at his position, what he does isn't even unique in Steelers recent history. He is doing things we have asked of other RB's on our roster, just at a higher level. However, he and his agent act like he has invented an entirely new way of playing the game. Even a guy like Redman who people consider a backup at best, was a great pass blocker and had good hands out of the backfield. So why should Bell be paid like a receiver?



    2 terms that should never be associated with Redman. Dude was a bulldozer. He didn't have time for glide.



    Exactly. He is a great running back and nothing more. His agent is framing him like some unique new thing the league has never seen before because they throw him a lot of passes. And just to back up what I am talking about I will provide some numbers:

    Bell was targeted 106 times in 2017 and 56 of those targets were at or behind the line. Someone find me another receiver who gets that many balls that close to the QB. That also doesn't account for passes that are just 1 or 2 yards past the line which again, receivers aren't really getting.

    Another key number is that there were 78 receivers in 2017 who caught 30 or more balls. All 78 of them averaged more yards per catch than Bell. He is certainly a volume guy but most definitely not a receiver.
    I don't know where you are pulling the stats from, so I wasn't able to find some of the same details. But looking at "air yards per target" (https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/r...intended-yards) I wonder what guys like Landry, Sanu, Tate, Cobb, and just about any primarily short area TE look like. I don't think anyone was confusing Bell with a #1 WR but some of the #'s I have looked at would support the idea that he is in the same ballpark as many of the slot receivers in the league.

    I do not think that Steelers should have went beyond the offer they had on the table in overall dollars - maybe (stress the MAYBE) they could've tweaked the language to do some more guaranteed cash. But to deny that in league where Watkins and Landry get the big-time deals they got that Bell won't get a mega $$$ deal on the open market is kinda silly.

    Additionally, Bell is a unique talent. Is he an all-time great? I don't know, probably not. But to have any conversation that he is somehow only a souped up Isaac Redman is just laughable. The ENTIRE offense is predicated around what Bell can and can't do. Half the pass plays the team runs are structured around moving Bell around pre-snap to force the defense to respond. Most opposing teams have repeatedly said the majority of their preparation time for Steelers week is not on Ben, AB, or other skill position players - it is on where is Bell, what is he doing, and what is our response? Isaac Redman and most of the other backs in the NFL do not cause that response in teams.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I don't know where you are pulling the stats from, so I wasn't able to find some of the same details. But looking at "air yards per target" (https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/r...intended-yards) I wonder what guys like Landry, Sanu, Tate, Cobb, and just about any primarily short area TE look like. I don't think anyone was confusing Bell with a #1 WR but some of the #'s I have looked at would support the idea that he is in the same ballpark as many of the slot receivers in the league.
    The 56 out of 106 targets comes from PFF. The other part came from Dave at Steelersdepot and he also included the PFF stats there

    https://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/0...-of-scrimmage/

    Would be interesting to see but I doubt it is even close for Bell. Most of what he does is YAC which again, still relates to being an RB and not a WR. He isn't facing CB's and S's but LB's most of the time and while I think he can run all of the routes on some level he typically doesn't have to.

    I do not think that Steelers should have went beyond the offer they had on the table in overall dollars - maybe (stress the MAYBE) they could've tweaked the language to do some more guaranteed cash. But to deny that in league where Watkins and Landry get the big-time deals they got that Bell won't get a mega $$$ deal on the open market is kinda silly.
    I fully believe he will get big money, I just didn't want the Steelers to be the ones to overpay. We have 6 trophies, let the teams like the Chiefs who overpay for guys like Watkins continue to do so and continue to get knocked out of the first round every year.

    Additionally, Bell is a unique talent. Is he an all-time great? I don't know, probably not. But to have any conversation that he is somehow only a souped up Isaac Redman is just laughable. The ENTIRE offense is predicated around what Bell can and can't do. Half the pass plays the team runs are structured around moving Bell around pre-snap to force the defense to respond. Most opposing teams have repeatedly said the majority of their preparation time for Steelers week is not on Ben, AB, or other skill position players - it is on where is Bell, what is he doing, and what is our response? Isaac Redman and most of the other backs in the NFL do not cause that response in teams.
    There are a couple of discussion points here so I will seperate them.

    1. The reason I point to Redman isn't about a skill level comparison but is a direct response to Bell and his agents argument. Because he can catch passes and he blocks they frame it like he is unique to the NFL but he really isn't. Every RB is asked to run routes from time to time and block for the QB. I point to Redman because not only is Bell not unique to the league, he isn't even unique in the Steelers recent past. Again, he is a much better overall player than Redman, but the idea of him lining up at receiver making him special is ridiculous. Redman did the same thing from time to time. In fact he had a beautiful all hands catch for a game winning TD vs the Ravens when he was lined up as a receiver. So it isn't meant to be a Bell vs Redman debate but just used as an illustration. Redman was also rated by PFF as one of the best pass blocking RB's in the league at one point by the way (as was Dwyer if I remember correctly).

    2. Yes, the offense moves around Bell but that is by virtue of how the Steelers choose to setup their offense. Again, this isn't necessarily a unique thing to Bell. The Cowboys could choose to start having Zeke move around and do things of that nature. The Falcons could do it with Freeman. The Rams could do it with Gurley. The Pats could do it with White. That just isn't how they choose to operate. The Steelers don't HAVE to work Bell in so much. They do afterall have the best WR in the NFL and a HOF QB.

    Bell is a great RB, maybe the best in the NFL but that is all he is. He isn't some once in a lifetime talent that can't be replaced and worked around.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyphon25 View Post
    The 56 out of 106 targets comes from PFF. The other part came from Dave at Steelersdepot and he also included the PFF stats there

    https://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/0...-of-scrimmage/

    Would be interesting to see but I doubt it is even close for Bell. Most of what he does is YAC which again, still relates to being an RB and not a WR. He isn't facing CB's and S's but LB's most of the time and while I think he can run all of the routes on some level he typically doesn't have to.



    I fully believe he will get big money, I just didn't want the Steelers to be the ones to overpay. We have 6 trophies, let the teams like the Chiefs who overpay for guys like Watkins continue to do so and continue to get knocked out of the first round every year.



    There are a couple of discussion points here so I will seperate them.

    1. The reason I point to Redman isn't about a skill level comparison but is a direct response to Bell and his agents argument. Because he can catch passes and he blocks they frame it like he is unique to the NFL but he really isn't. Every RB is asked to run routes from time to time and block for the QB. I point to Redman because not only is Bell not unique to the league, he isn't even unique in the Steelers recent past. Again, he is a much better overall player than Redman, but the idea of him lining up at receiver making him special is ridiculous. Redman did the same thing from time to time. In fact he had a beautiful all hands catch for a game winning TD vs the Ravens when he was lined up as a receiver. So it isn't meant to be a Bell vs Redman debate but just used as an illustration. Redman was also rated by PFF as one of the best pass blocking RB's in the league at one point by the way (as was Dwyer if I remember correctly).

    2. Yes, the offense moves around Bell but that is by virtue of how the Steelers choose to setup their offense. Again, this isn't necessarily a unique thing to Bell. The Cowboys could choose to start having Zeke move around and do things of that nature. The Falcons could do it with Freeman. The Rams could do it with Gurley. The Pats could do it with White. That just isn't how they choose to operate. The Steelers don't HAVE to work Bell in so much. They do afterall have the best WR in the NFL and a HOF QB.

    Bell is a great RB, maybe the best in the NFL but that is all he is. He isn't some once in a lifetime talent that can't be replaced and worked around.
    I can agree with most of that. But, right now, there are a handful of guys at the RB position that are light years ahead of the rest. Bell, David Johnson, Gurley, Kareem Hunt, and maybe Elliot. Everyone else is trying to get to that level at the position with staggeringly high draft picks (Fournette and Barkley) or throwing money at lottery tickets (Jerrick McKinnon) or cobbling a Franken-back out of 2-4 guys. The guys I listed have about as much in common with the Issac Redmans of the world as a Rolls Royce Phantom does with a Yugo hatchback.

    I think that fan reactions have been far too "no big deal" regarding Bell almost certainly leaving. His absence will carve a hole out of the offense that a 38 year old QB and a 30+ WR, no matter how great they are, will need significant help to fill. Now maybe Conners/Samuels, McDonald, and the new WR are more than enough. The thing is nobody knows. The ONLY thing that is known for sure is what the offense looks like with Bell as the engine. Does that mean I think the Steelers needed to pay whatever was required to keep Bell in town? No. I want that to be clear. I think (for a host of reasons) that the Steelers offer was the best for them. But I also honestly believe that Bell will beat it on the open market.

    On a slightly related note, want to hear a terrifying thing? AB significantly slowed down last year according to several advanced stat tracking services. As in he ran noticeably slower in all phases of the game and areas of the field. Clearly it had little to no affect on his ability to impact the game. But how much longer can he be the "guy"?

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I think that fan reactions have been far too "no big deal" regarding Bell almost certainly leaving. His absence will carve a hole out of the offense that a 38 year old QB and a 30+ WR, no matter how great they are, will need significant help to fill. Now maybe Conners/Samuels, McDonald, and the new WR are more than enough. The thing is nobody knows. The ONLY thing that is known for sure is what the offense looks like with Bell as the engine. Does that mean I think the Steelers needed to pay whatever was required to keep Bell in town? No. I want that to be clear. I think (for a host of reasons) that the Steelers offer was the best for them. But I also honestly believe that Bell will beat it on the open market.

    On a slightly related note, want to hear a terrifying thing? AB significantly slowed down last year according to several advanced stat tracking services. As in he ran noticeably slower in all phases of the game and areas of the field. Clearly it had little to no affect on his ability to impact the game. But how much longer can he be the "guy"?
    and I honestly believe that there will be a noticeable decline in Bell's play within the next couple of years, which is why it makes no sense to give a RB such an exorbitant long-term contract with guaranteed money imo.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    Go watch some film of his last year at Michigan St. His line was horrendous.

    Barry Sanders carried his team to what exactly?

    Earl Campbell carried his team to what exactly?

    Some of the comments you guys are making are purely emotional and not objective in any way.

    Look, I'm on record as saying he's not worth the money he's asking for because I don't think any running back is worth that kind of money against the salary cap and the production that you can still get from lesser backs while strengthening the rest of the roster. But just because I feel that way doesn't mean he's not a great player. Paying too much for his services may prevent the team from winning a Super Bowl, but it's not because he isn't good enough as a player. Question the money....not the talent.
    Sanders and Campbell put their respective teams on their backs exclusively and carried them. There were no other high quality players on those teams. Without them they would be the Browns.
    All Defense!

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    I have sinking feeling Bell is going to be a patriot next year
    Quote Originally Posted by XxKnightxX View Post
    We are not Buffalo, We are not Miami. We are the Steelers, we dont blow out teams, we cock tease for ratings and keep games close.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    and I honestly believe that there will be a noticeable decline in Bell's play within the next couple of years, which is why it makes no sense to give a RB such an exorbitant long-term contract with guaranteed money imo.
    While that may be true, and I agree that an exorbitant contract is wrong, we also have to remember that Bell's running style isn't predicated on elements that disappear with age as much as speed backs or scatbacks. Bell's running depends on patience, the ability to identify openings, and then his ability to hit that opening hard. He also likes running over people as much as he does juking people. So, while his 10+ yard runs may dwindle, his 3 and 4+ yard runs will continue to increase, and to have a back that consistently gets you three or four yards every time they touch the ball is worth a pretty penny as well. Because it gaurantees a 3rd and 3, 3rd and 4 rather than a 3rd and long situation.

    Although I joked about it in another thread, I think Bell probably has 3-4 years of very high production left barring injury. He'll hit a thousand yards rushing until then each year, IMO because of the reasons listed above.


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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    Although I joked about it in another thread, I think Bell probably has 3-4 years of very high production left barring injury. He'll hit a thousand yards rushing until then each year, IMO because of the reasons listed above.
    Likely at 3.8 YPC... which is where he teetered most of 2017. That's not worth $15M per. I get it... he also blocks and catches dump off passes. Time will tell over the next 2-3 years. Unless this board goes the way of Steelers Fever, I'll be here to talk about it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Ward 86 View Post
    I have sinking feeling Bell is going to be a patriot next year
    If he is then Bill stopped playing chess and joined the rest of us at checkers.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Funny to see the hatred for one of the best RBs in Steelers history after he was the be all end all of the 2013 draft. What will happen to the fan base if he signs a two year deal with Pittsburgh next off season? Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Ward 86 View Post
    I have sinking feeling Bell is going to be a patriot next year
    when was the last time Belicheat paid big $$$ to a RB?

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Ward 86 View Post
    I have sinking feeling Bell is going to be a patriot next year
    Not sure why he would since he typically takes a few lesser backs and works them into his system. Plus he just drafted a RB in round 1 last April

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Funny to see the hatred for one of the best RBs in Steelers history after he was the be all end all of the 2013 draft. What will happen to the fan base if he signs a two year deal with Pittsburgh next off season? Lol.
    T.O. is one of the greatest WRs in history but he gets constant hate for being a locker room cancer, a nuisance, selfish and overly dramatic. Character counts as well, and if you spend more time creating negative locker room and putting yourself before the team, you tend to receive more hate while being a great player

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by ALLD View Post
    Sanders and Campbell put their respective teams on their backs exclusively and carried them. There were no other high quality players on those teams. Without them they would be the Browns.

    Barry Sanders was an incredible player. He did carry his team, but he has more than a few weaknesses. Barry Sanders couldn't or wouldn't block. He was small and could get overwhelmed by blitzing LBs. He was not a good receiver. He didn't show great hands, and struggled at times in the passing game. He always played for the home run. He would routinely take huge losses while attempting to break a big run. That style put his offense in terrible position to continue drives very often. Some of that may have been coaching, but he wasn't nearly the all-around player Bell is. He was a phenomenal runner....maybe the greatest pure runner to ever play the game. I could watch film of that guy doing the most ridiculous things with the ball in his hand all day long. He was a great, great player. However, he was not the complete player Bell is at all facets of the game.

    Here are his stats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Sanders


    Earl Campbell played on some very talented teams that had many pro bowl caliber players. For many years, people thought they had a roster that rivalled the best rosters in the NFL on pure talent. He was not a good receiver in any way. He was a very bright star that burned out very quickly because of his running style, and his teams underachieved. He was not the franchise carrying player you describe. They had a good offensive line, a good quarterback, and good defenses and he never got to a Super Bowl. He was a fumbling machine. If he was that much better than Bell, he should have "carried" his team to a championship or two.

    Check out his stats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Campbell

    Both of these players had offenses that were completely constructed around their talents and played in an era that featured running backs. If you want to say they were better pure runners than Bell, I understand that completely. But let's not overlook the glaring weaknesses in their games. They were great pure runners with limitations in other parts of their game.

    Here are Bell's career stats just so we can all see how he stacks up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le%27Veon_Bell

    Bell still has a lot more to do over his career to see how he is judged historically. He hurt himself and the team with suspensions. He has been injured a few times and missed significant time. The one thing we know is that no player has ever averaged as many yards per game as Bell has done since coming into the NFL. I don't see how people can just dismiss that when you really look at the numbers and the total yards from scrimmage. Look at the number of fumbles compared to the number of touches compared to these other backs and to any other great running backs you want to compare him to. Taking care of the ball while touching it that many times is astonishing.

    This stuff matters whether you want to believe it or not. Look at the receiving yards and impact that those touches have had compared to other these backs and other great backs. I know they played in a different era, but you can't just look at the strengths of other players without looking at their weakness.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    The bottom line is that I'll be a Bell fan in 2018 and then not so much after that.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    The bottom line is that I'll be a Bell fan in 2018 and then not so much after that.
    unless he re-signs with the Steelers, of course.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    The bottom line is that I'll be a Bell fan in 2018 and then not so much after that.


    I get it, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    He has pissed everyone off with the way he has handled things. Me included.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    unless he re-signs with the Steelers, of course.
    Obviously

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    While that may be true, and I agree that an exorbitant contract is wrong, we also have to remember that Bell's running style isn't predicated on elements that disappear with age as much as speed backs or scatbacks. Bell's running depends on patience, the ability to identify openings, and then his ability to hit that opening hard. He also likes running over people as much as he does juking people. So, while his 10+ yard runs may dwindle, his 3 and 4+ yard runs will continue to increase, and to have a back that consistently gets you three or four yards every time they touch the ball is worth a pretty penny as well. Because it gaurantees a 3rd and 3, 3rd and 4 rather than a 3rd and long situation.

    Although I joked about it in another thread, I think Bell probably has 3-4 years of very high production left barring injury. He'll hit a thousand yards rushing until then each year, IMO because of the reasons listed above.
    Arguably it is that quick burst once Bell picks his opening that could go more quickly than straight ahead speed that has never been a strong point in Bell's game.

    ESPN had an interesting article several weeks ago on how baseball players age - physical peak is in early 20s and after that being able to improve is how you play the game as physical decline accelerates.

    An athlete's physical decline begins before most of us notice it, and even the 23-year-old body can do things today that it might not be able to do tomorrow. ... An average runner slows a little more than 1 inch per second every year, beginning pretty much immediately upon his debut. It takes a little over four seconds for most runners to reach first base, which means with each birthday, it's as if the bases were pulled 4 inches farther apart. ...

    A 23-year-old begins to decline at the same time that he learns how to play baseball better. The race between age and expertise is what determines whether a baseball player can have the best season of his career years after his body begins to fail.

    http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2...-albert-pujols

    Might explain why running back is the position where NFL players can hit it big immediately since the learning curve for that position coming out of NCAA ball is not as steep and pure physical talent is even more important (as opposed to QB where if the QB survives the early years the best ones now play into their late 30s).

    Add to that Bell's style of running over people (ask Earl Campbell how that worked out) and his decline could be at least as steep as more traditional RBs

    It's a business with no loyalty and Bell is entitled to seek to max out his earnings while Steelers try to max out the return on investment while working under the salary cap. Good luck to the team that pays for multiple years of prime Bell after most RBs have little prime left once they turn 27

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    I know how you feel about him, but does that mean Dan Marino wasn't worth a Super Bowl win? You can't pin that on one guy. He wasn't the reason the team didn't move on in the playoffs last season. He was great. The defense shit the bed.

    I just think it's silly to lay all the blame of a 53 man roster at the feet of Bell. You can hate him and his contract demands, but he hasn't been the reason for the team's failures.
    It was a direct comparison to the 2017 Steelers and their RB investment/production and the 2017 Eagles RB investment/production. The ROI was that the Eagles won the Super Bowl and the Steelers went 0-1 in the playoffs.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    It's a shame that this is his last season and, he will be missed. I does it all but, if you look at the winning super bowl winners the last several years it's a running back by committee. Bell is a great player maybe 4-5 years left of his great play as well. The steelers will survive.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    It was a direct comparison to the 2017 Steelers and their RB investment/production and the 2017 Eagles RB investment/production. The ROI was that the Eagles won the Super Bowl and the Steelers went 0-1 in the playoffs.
    In 2017 the Steelers spent 12.4 million on the RB position.

    The final four playoff teams in 2017 and their cap hits for the RB position:

    Philly: 3.2 million
    Patriots: 11.0 million
    Jags: 13.1 million
    Vikings: 4.5 million

    So what conclusion do we want to draw? RB by committee is the path to success? Or that 50% of the conference championship game participants spent at the same level the Steelers did at the RB position. What about the fact that the Giants passed on a QB to take a RB? What about the idea that for 3 off seasons now the league has been trying to find "pass catching backs" under every rock and shrub?

    Again, the Steelers made the best offer for them. Bell will get a better offer in 2019 from someone. I can't really figure out what that means, but I suspect no one is wrong and no one is totally right.

    There are like 3 or 4 paths to success and roster construction in the NFL. Bell was not even within shouting distance of why the Steelers failed to reach the Super Bowl.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    In 2017 the Steelers spent 12.4 million on the RB position.

    The final four playoff teams in 2017 and their cap hits for the RB position:

    Philly: 3.2 million
    Patriots: 11.0 million
    Jags: 13.1 million
    Vikings: 4.5 million

    So what conclusion do we want to draw? RB by committee is the path to success? Or that 50% of the conference championship game participants spent at the same level the Steelers did at the RB position. What about the fact that the Giants passed on a QB to take a RB? What about the idea that for 3 off seasons now the league has been trying to find "pass catching backs" under every rock and shrub?

    Again, the Steelers made the best offer for them. Bell will get a better offer in 2019 from someone. I can't really figure out what that means, but I suspect no one is wrong and no one is totally right.

    There are like 3 or 4 paths to success and roster construction in the NFL. Bell was not even within shouting distance of why the Steelers failed to reach the Super Bowl.
    Ok... that's well and good, but there's only one prize. Final Fours only count in March Madness. The point that's been proven by the last 3 Super Bowl winners is that you don't need a $15M RB. The past 3 Super Bowl winners did not have a RB making more than $2M.

    Eagles: $3.2M and ranked No. 3 in rushing yards. Won Super Bowl.
    Steelers $12.4M and ranked No. 20 in rushing yards. 0-1 in Playoffs.

    Point is that we can win the Super Bowl WITH LeVeon Bell (I hope we do in 2018), but we don't need him to do so.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Ok... that's well and good, but there's only one prize. Final Fours only count in March Madness. The point that's been proven by the last 3 Super Bowl winners is that you don't need a $15M RB. The past 3 Super Bowl winners did not have a RB making more than $2M.

    Eagles: $3.2M and ranked No. 3 in rushing yards. Won Super Bowl.
    Steelers $12.4M and ranked No. 20 in rushing yards. 0-1 in Playoffs.

    Point is that we can win the Super Bowl WITH LeVeon Bell (I hope we do in 2018), but we don't need him to do so.
    I mean if you want to find causation where there does not seem to be certain ground, have a great time.

    My point is that you are only selecting the portions of the available evidence that fit your point. Half the playoff field spent a great deal of money on RBs. Half did not. So maybe the situation is more complicated.

    I don't think that anyone is arguing that we must have Bell to win a championship. But he certainly can make it easier. Based on the Eagles, Vikings, and Jags playoff runs the Steelers can win a championship with Ben but they don't need him to do it. There is no way I or anyone else would agree with that statement, but only looking at certain aspects of a limited portion of the 2017 NFL season - that becomes one of the conclusion that looks like the facts support it. Again, this stuff is complicated and there are no clear answers.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    when was the last time Belicheat paid big $$$ to a RB?
    Corey Dillon? I know they gave up a 2nd rounder to trade for him, but as far as I remember, it was good money and not some bank breaker like what Bell's asking for.

    But yeah for the most part the Patriots* usually dip into the bargain bin for RBs. There's no pats* running back I hated more than Kevin Faulk though, that dude was a nobody but always had huge games against us.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Goodell View Post
    Corey Dillon? I know they gave up a 2nd rounder to trade for him, but as far as I remember, it was good money and not some bank breaker like what Bell's asking for.

    But yeah for the most part the Patriots* usually dip into the bargain bin for RBs. There's no pats* running back I hated more than Kevin Faulk though, that dude was a nobody but always had huge games against us.
    Interestingly enough from 2015-2017, the Steelers and Pats spent roughly the same amount of cap dollars at the RB position. Prior to that (site only goes back to 2013) the Steelers spent less than the Pats.

    https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/position.../running-back/

    Two contrasting approaches though. Pats are willing to pay multiple guys with specific roles a small amount that adds up to a good deal of money overall and the Steelers seek to find one guy to pay all the money to.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Interestingly enough from 2015-2017, the Steelers and Pats spent roughly the same amount of cap dollars at the RB position. Prior to that (site only goes back to 2013) the Steelers spent less than the Pats.

    https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/position.../running-back/

    Two contrasting approaches though. Pats are willing to pay multiple guys with specific roles a small amount that adds up to a good deal of money overall and the Steelers seek to find one guy to pay all the money to.
    Didn't know that, but it is interesting. Their approach I guess is not as high of a ceiling as having a healthy 26, but is more fail safe. If one RB goes down, they have another that can take over and not lose much of a step at all. If 26 goes down for us though, it's a significant drop, unless Connor really blows it up.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I mean if you want to find causation where there does not seem to be certain ground, have a great time.

    My point is that you are only selecting the portions of the available evidence that fit your point. Half the playoff field spent a great deal of money on RBs. Half did not. So maybe the situation is more complicated.

    I don't think that anyone is arguing that we must have Bell to win a championship. But he certainly can make it easier. Based on the Eagles, Vikings, and Jags playoff runs the Steelers can win a championship with Ben but they don't need him to do it. There is no way I or anyone else would agree with that statement, but only looking at certain aspects of a limited portion of the 2017 NFL season - that becomes one of the conclusion that looks like the facts support it. Again, this stuff is complicated and there are no clear answers.
    The rest of your verbiage aside, the part I have placed in bold is the only point I’m making, to which you concede. It’s 50/50 either way. There’s no proven method. So we don’t have to have a $15M RB to win the Super Bowl. In fact, no one ever has.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Interestingly enough from 2015-2017, the Steelers and Pats spent roughly the same amount of cap dollars at the RB position. Prior to that (site only goes back to 2013) the Steelers spent less than the Pats.

    https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/position.../running-back/

    Two contrasting approaches though. Pats are willing to pay multiple guys with specific roles a small amount that adds up to a good deal of money overall and the Steelers seek to find one guy to pay all the money to.
    Which begs the question: which is easier to replace? A role player or a mega star?

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    The rest of your verbiage aside, the part I have placed in bold is the only point I’m making, to which you concede. It’s 50/50 either way. There’s no proven method. So we don’t have to have a $15M RB to win the Super Bowl. In fact, no one ever has.
    That's not it at all.

    Based off the whatever the Eagles did is the way to win the SB logic, the Steelers should cut Leveon Bell and roll with Samuels, Conner, and some bruiser from FA. They should then trade Ben because Landry Jones can be Nick Foles.

    My point is that when Bell leaves, that will be a phenomenal amount of yards from scrimmage that will be carved out of the offense. Bell has accounted for roughly a third of the offensive output during his tenure as a Steeler.

    I have no interest in debating the specific dollar value and contract structure that translates to. But I do strongly argue that simply shrugging that contribution off and deciding it is readily replaceable by spreading it across several less talented players is false.

    When Bell leaves, AB will face the entire weight of the defensive scheme. Right now AB gets double teams and jams, but the focus of the defense (this is well documented and can readily be found in quotes by coaches, players, and commentators via a short Google search) is on Bell. What impact will that have? No one knows, but it will have an impact.

    Spreading Bell's yards from scrimmage across McDonald, JuJu, Conner/Samuels is a fun exercise in math, but ignores the above. How much of the time the TE is wide open for short passes is that because teams are freaking out about following Bell around? We could discuss numerous other examples or scenarios.

    Yes, you are correct no team has to pay any player anything. Each player in the NFL can be replaced. But many posts on the various threads seem to be making an assumption that Bell is just a cog that can be swapped out for another cog and a few extra widgets. That is not how I see it. Bell is replaceable but in replacing him the offensive system and approach of the Steelers will need to be fundamentally altered.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    The rest of your verbiage aside, the part I have placed in bold is the only point I’m making, to which you concede. It’s 50/50 either way. There’s no proven method. So we don’t have to have a $15M RB to win the Super Bowl. In fact, no one ever has.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Which begs the question: which is easier to replace? A role player or a mega star?
    It also begs the question is what is more efficient? Pay 3 guys to approximate the elite production of a star? Pay the star? Money has been the same.

    It honestly looks like the Steelers were willing to pay the star, but had a threshold they wouldn't go past. Bell wants to go past that level, so they are going to part ways.

    But it doesn't mean the fundamental approach is wrong.

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    Re: Le'Veon Bell, Steelers fail to reach long-term deal ahead of deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    That's not it at all.

    Based off the whatever the Eagles did is the way to win the SB logic, the Steelers should cut Leveon Bell and roll with Samuels, Conner, and some bruiser from FA. They should then trade Ben because Landry Jones can be Nick Foles.
    OK... I wouldn't terribly mind if the Steelers waited until Sept 1 and then rescinded the franchise tag - for the record. But don't get ridiculous about the Landry Jones thing. That's just a silly straw man.

    My point is that when Bell leaves, that will be a phenomenal amount of yards from scrimmage that will be carved out of the offense. Bell has accounted for roughly a third of the offensive output during his tenure as a Steeler.
    Yes they will be giving up 4.0 YPC and 7 through the air. But you have one flaw in your premise: you act as if Bell is going to continue to perform at his 2014 pace into his late 20s with 1600+ carries. It's not going to happen.

    I have no interest in debating the specific dollar value and contract structure that translates to. But I do strongly argue that simply shrugging that contribution off and deciding it is readily replaceable by spreading it across several less talented players is false.
    Why is it false when it's been proven capable of winning Super Bowls, including last year.

    When Bell leaves, AB will face the entire weight of the defensive scheme. Right now AB gets double teams and jams, but the focus of the defense (this is well documented and can readily be found in quotes by coaches, players, and commentators via a short Google search) is on Bell. What impact will that have? No one knows, but it will have an impact.

    Spreading Bell's yards from scrimmage across McDonald, JuJu, Conner/Samuels is a fun exercise in math, but ignores the above. How much of the time the TE is wide open for short passes is that because teams are freaking out about following Bell around? We could discuss numerous other examples or scenarios.
    There's no way you can know how good Samuels and Conner will be yet. Not to mention if they take a RB in the first round next year.

    Yes, you are correct no team has to pay any player anything. Each player in the NFL can be replaced. But many posts on the various threads seem to be making an assumption that Bell is just a cog that can be swapped out for another cog and a few extra widgets. That is not how I see it. Bell is replaceable but in replacing him the offensive system and approach of the Steelers will need to be fundamentally altered.
    Obviously the Steelers' FO thinks they can do that or they would have offered him more than $10M guaranteed. That low figure was quite surprising to me.

    - - - Updated - - -


    It also begs the question is what is more efficient? Pay 3 guys to approximate the elite production of a star? Pay the star? Money has been the same.

    It honestly looks like the Steelers were willing to pay the star, but had a threshold they wouldn't go past. Bell wants to go past that level, so they are going to part ways.

    But it doesn't mean the fundamental approach is wrong.
    If I'm a GM, I'm rolling with the idea of either spreading it out OR going young and cheap again through the draft. If your $15M guy gets an ACL or popped for dope, where does that leave you? Not to mention the diva hat that Bell wears. I'll be glad to run the wheels off this year and move on.

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