How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

[steelreserve]

Most observers don't see it the same way:http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...-season#slide6

This has Haden on spot above....Ross Cockerell!

53. Joe Haden, Pittsburgh Steelers
Coverage: 15/25
Reaction: 17/25
Recovery: 14/25
Tackling: 8/15
Position Value: 10/10
Overall Grade: 64/100
In August, the Steelers handed Haden a three-year contract that was essentially a one-year, low-money deal with two option years in case he looked good enough to keep past 2017. The veteran had a nondescript season—like the last several he had with the Cleveland Browns—as he was still uneven with his eye discipline and wanted to jump every underneath route.
He's almost purely a vertical zone defender at this point, making him a fit for the team's scheme, but his limited speed and reliability were issues once again.

Even if you strongly disagree with that ranking, Haden is nowhere to be found on any Top 25 CB list I can find on the Google machines. But he is the 9th highest paid CB in the league. I like Joe Haden. Joe Haden seems like a great guy. Joe Haden still can play in the NFL. Joe Haden is extremely overpaid. Haden had a lone INT and 7 passes defensed in 11 starts last year (make it 10 because he got hurt partway through one of those).

Leveon Bell is asking to be overpaid. Leveon Bell still produces top 5 offensive numbers. I mean if you are going to overpay anyone...

Problem is, if you overpay Bell what he wants, that's enough money to pay Haden AND the #2 running back in the league.

Yes, yes - when are we going to magically have the #2 running back in the league turn up on the open market in free agency - we're not. But you could pay two very good players with the amount of money Bell is demanding, that's the point. Then try to draft what you're missing. Makes that much easier.

I don't think Haden has been as bad as a lot of the hate would suggest. He's been decent to pretty-good when available. Not great, not terrible. The defense does look noticeably better when he's on the field. Or looks lost fairly frequently when he's not, take your pick. I'd definitely call him an asset, at least for the next year or two.

CB is one of those positions where our own deficiencies made the "value" of a competent player more to US than the average market value. Like - in the Blake days, CB was such a weak spot that it caused a cascading failure across the entire secondary and the entire defense. I strongly believe that Will Allen, for example, took a lot more shit than he deserved because the incompetence of the Bozo next to him put him in a lot of no-win situations. And the rest of the defense suffered because it ended up in a lot of situations where it had to sell out in order to stop one particular play - it could be easily led around by any halfway decent offense like a dog blindly chasing a stick, and then you throw the stick off a cliff.

So really, needing a competent CB was a $9 million problem to us. Sucks if you could've gotten one for $5 million and you overpaid, but on the whole the transaction works out in our favor. Now, if we'd needed three competent DBs, or a CB plus two LBs and a defensive end, then it's not a $9 million problem, it's a problem where you have to have a bigger overall plan to improve the defense within a reasonable budget. But given the general state of our defense, being one piece away from "good enough," it makes sense. Kind of like ILB this season. You'd get more value out of just a solid player at that position than most other teams would.

That's a big mistake that teams like the Raiders, Redskins, etc. make - doing a big-money "splash" deal at one position when they need three or four pieces ... well, you actually screwed yourself because your starting point was not good enough that you just needed one piece. Now you're going to have two or three UDFA's trying to fill important roles, and you've really dug yourself a hole that might take years to get out of. A big difference between the Steelers and those teams.

Oh, the other point - I don't think RB is one of those positions for us right now, in fact it's the opposite. The rest of the pieces on offense are good enough - in fact, they're so good you could call it overloaded - that the difference Bell makes compared to a RB who is merely good, is diminished, not magnified. We won't be better off 1-for-1 if we go that route, but I do think the impact will be less than many people think.

[DesertSteel]

Most observers don't see it the same way:http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...-season#slide6

You say "most observers" and then provide one source - bleacher report. I've heard commentators say that he played well and I've heard some say that he didn't. Plus, he was coming off an injury year. At 29, I'm really interested to see what he has left this year. To say that he's on par with Cockerell makes the evaluation a joke, to be honest.

But you are right in that lots of guys are overpaid. But the inflation is more tied to the position than the player. Teams aren't willing to overpay for Running Backs. They will for LT's, CB's and other positions.

[Mojouw]

You say "most observers" and then provide one source - bleacher report. I've heard commentators say that he played well and I've heard some say that he didn't. Plus, he was coming off an injury year. At 29, I'm really interested to see what he has left this year. To say that he's on par with Cockerell makes the evaluation a joke, to be honest.

But you are right in that lots of guys are overpaid. But the inflation is more tied to the position than the player. Teams aren't willing to overpay for Running Backs. They will for LT's, CB's and other positions.

I mean literally type "2017 nfl cornerback rankings" into Google and read any of the lists provided on the first 3 pages (that's as far as I went) and you will not find Joe Haden listed in anyone's top 10 or top 25. Google "Cornerback Salary" and you will find Haden at #9 - in the entire league.

As for the injury thing, so was Bell. But in the case of Bell that is not an argument that holds water but for Haden it is? Haden has had a major injury several seasons in a row. For him it is just a thing that happens and we are supposed to be positive about it. For Bell, he misses games and it is another reason to cut him loose.

I mean at some point, it would be great if we could agree to use the same standards in evaluating a guy. That's most likely what NFL teams do. But, lately, all evaluations of Bell are heavily colored by emotion.

So if the argument is that you can not pay one guy too much money when other comparable guys are available - then you have to apply it to everyone on the roster, not just the players we don't like. If we argue that Conner and Samuels can equate Bell or be "good enough" then why can't the same argument be made for Sutton and Allen replacing Haden?

As for the Cockrell thing - that's why I posted it. I'm not certain that AT THIS POINT in their careers there is really a massive gap between the two.

- - - Updated - - -

Problem is, if you overpay Bell what he wants, that's enough money to pay Haden AND the #2 running back in the league.

Yes, yes - when are we going to magically have the #2 running back in the league turn up on the open market in free agency - we're not. But you could pay two very good players with the amount of money Bell is demanding, that's the point. Then try to draft what you're missing. Makes that much easier.

I don't think Haden has been as bad as a lot of the hate would suggest. He's been decent to pretty-good when available. Not great, not terrible. The defense does look noticeably better when he's on the field. Or looks lost fairly frequently when he's not, take your pick. I'd definitely call him an asset, at least for the next year or two.

CB is one of those positions where our own deficiencies made the "value" of a competent player more to US than the average market value. Like - in the Blake days, CB was such a weak spot that it caused a cascading failure across the entire secondary and the entire defense. I strongly believe that Will Allen, for example, took a lot more shit than he deserved because the incompetence of the Bozo next to him put him in a lot of no-win situations. And the rest of the defense suffered because it ended up in a lot of situations where it had to sell out in order to stop one particular play - it could be easily led around by any halfway decent offense like a dog blindly chasing a stick, and then you throw the stick off a cliff.

So really, needing a competent CB was a $9 million problem to us. Sucks if you could've gotten one for $5 million and you overpaid, but on the whole the transaction works out in our favor. Now, if we'd needed three competent DBs, or a CB plus two LBs and a defensive end, then it's not a $9 million problem, it's a problem where you have to have a bigger overall plan to improve the defense within a reasonable budget. But given the general state of our defense, being one piece away from "good enough," it makes sense. Kind of like ILB this season. You'd get more value out of just a solid player at that position than most other teams would.

That's a big mistake that teams like the Raiders, Redskins, etc. make - doing a big-money "splash" deal at one position when they need three or four pieces ... well, you actually screwed yourself because your starting point was not good enough that you just needed one piece. Now you're going to have two or three UDFA's trying to fill important roles, and you've really dug yourself a hole that might take years to get out of. A big difference between the Steelers and those teams.

Oh, the other point - I don't think RB is one of those positions for us right now, in fact it's the opposite. The rest of the pieces on offense are good enough - in fact, they're so good you could call it overloaded - that the difference Bell makes compared to a RB who is merely good, is diminished, not magnified. We won't be better off 1-for-1 if we go that route, but I do think the impact will be less than many people think.

I'm not certain I disagree with much of that - or maybe even any of it. But we can change a few words and shift the ideas around just a bit and it could be a post about RBs involving everyone between Willie Parker to Leveon Bell.

And overpaying for a CB because of past failures and roster issues is not a reason for doing anything going forward. Cam Sutton looked like a player moving up in the league last year and Joe Haden looked like one on the way down. If Allen comes along, why pay Haden a ton of money? It is mercenary as hell, but it isn't like I really care about these guys. I would say the same thing about Bell IF and WHEN Conner and Samuels demonstrate that they can play RB in the NFL with even a moderate degree of competency. To date, they have not done that.

[DesertSteel]

Cockrell = Haden
J. James = Gronk

[Mojouw]

Cockrell = Haden
J. James = Gronk

I mean what do you want to use as a performance criteria?

Ints? Haden had 1 Cockrell had 3.
Passes Defensed? Haden had 7. Rusty had 11.
Tackles? Haden had 20 versus Cockrell's 50.

I am not arguing that the 2017 or 2018 Steelers would be better off with Ross Cockrell as their starting CB. But I am arguing that Joe Haden does not perform on the field like a 9-11 million a year player. But no one seems to tear their hair out and it doesn't seem to weekly generate dozen page long message board threads. Yet the logic is roughly the same. Therefore a good portion of the Leveon Bell shouldn't be signed and the Steelers can be better off using the resources in other ways argument has to be emotional - at least to my flawed line of thinking. And that's fine, but it needs to be acknowledged.

[steelreserve]

I'm not certain I disagree with much of that - or maybe even any of it. But we can change a few words and shift the ideas around just a bit and it could be a post about RBs involving everyone between Willie Parker to Leveon Bell.

And overpaying for a CB because of past failures and roster issues is not a reason for doing anything going forward. Cam Sutton looked like a player moving up in the league last year and Joe Haden looked like one on the way down. If Allen comes along, why pay Haden a ton of money? It is mercenary as hell, but it isn't like I really care about these guys. I would say the same thing about Bell IF and WHEN Conner and Samuels demonstrate that they can play RB in the NFL with even a moderate degree of competency. To date, they have not done that.

Imagine how nice of a position we'll be in if/when Sutton and Allen have shown themselves to be capable CBs ... we'll have Bell's money AND Haden's money to use on other stuff. And most likely Shazier's $9 million too.

I get what you're saying about the past RB situation given our recent history there, but I think it's a different situation for a few reasons. One is that between Bettis and Bell, the rest of the offense was not quite the powerhouse it is now. Not counting Willie Parker, since I think he was a problem rather than an asset, but that's another story. Anyway, during that entire stretch, either the WRs were not quite as good, the line was not as good, the depth was a problem, we had smaller thorns in our side like having no real fullback (not a killer in itself, but becomes a problem when it prompts you to try a bunch of useless H-back bullshit, etc., etc.) Basically, the offense probably has more talent right now than it's had since 2004, maybe ever. So while losing an important piece of that would not help, overall it is in a position to keep performing at a high level.

Second is the nature of the position. Some positions are ones where your success is determined by, "How good is your best player?" WR, QB, pass rushers, and I would put RB on that list too. With others, it's "How bad is your worst player?" Offensive line and DB especially are the ones where the unit overall is only as good as the weakest link that can be exploited. In the first group, you pretty much get a 1:1 return in terms of performance for the money you spend (assuming you're not overpaying). In the second group, you can get a 2:1 or 3:1 return if it fixes a fatal problem. In these terms, Ramon Foster may provide the most "value" of any player on the team. In other words, Joe Haden playing like a $5 million player can come out more or less even for us; for Bell at $17 million, there's almost no way to come out even unless he was to smash every record in the books, have a 3,000-yard rushing season with 100 receptions and such.

The third part of it is just the sheer amount of money involved. I don't know that we've ever had a player where the difference between what he wanted and what other star players were making was literally DOUBLE. Enough to actually sign a different star player and fit another full player in completely, and a very good one at that. Other times it's been "well, we could save $3 million and put it toward a better safety" or some hypothetical thing like that, followed by "how much better safety could you really get for another $3 million, it'd be almost the same situation," and so on. This is literally like - keep the existing guy, or fill two positions of need with star-level talent or very close, and try to draft his replacement.

I also don't think Conner or anyone else has shown anything to indicate we have his replacement on the roster. We'd have to go out and get someone. It may be a moot point anyway, because as I've said repeatedly, I don't think Bell is signing a long-term deal with us at any price. So we might as well treat that eventuality as the one we have to plan for.

[Lady Steel]

Peak Age For A NFL Running Back

A running back is more likely to have a peak season early in his career at 22 or 23 than at the end of his career at 29 or 30.

http://apexfantasyleagues.com/2018/0...-running-back/

Well, doh! No kiddin'.

[AtlantaDan]

Well, doh! No kiddin'.

Based on Bell’s contract demands that apparently is news to Bell and his agent

[Mojouw]

Imagine how nice of a position we'll be in if/when Sutton and Allen have shown themselves to be capable CBs ... we'll have Bell's money AND Haden's money to use on other stuff. And most likely Shazier's $9 million too.

I get what you're saying about the past RB situation given our recent history there, but I think it's a different situation for a few reasons. One is that between Bettis and Bell, the rest of the offense was not quite the powerhouse it is now. Not counting Willie Parker, since I think he was a problem rather than an asset, but that's another story. Anyway, during that entire stretch, either the WRs were not quite as good, the line was not as good, the depth was a problem, we had smaller thorns in our side like having no real fullback (not a killer in itself, but becomes a problem when it prompts you to try a bunch of useless H-back bullshit, etc., etc.) Basically, the offense probably has more talent right now than it's had since 2004, maybe ever. So while losing an important piece of that would not help, overall it is in a position to keep performing at a high level.

Second is the nature of the position. Some positions are ones where your success is determined by, "How good is your best player?" WR, QB, pass rushers, and I would put RB on that list too. With others, it's "How bad is your worst player?" Offensive line and DB especially are the ones where the unit overall is only as good as the weakest link that can be exploited. In the first group, you pretty much get a 1:1 return in terms of performance for the money you spend (assuming you're not overpaying). In the second group, you can get a 2:1 or 3:1 return if it fixes a fatal problem. In these terms, Ramon Foster may provide the most "value" of any player on the team. In other words, Joe Haden playing like a $5 million player can come out more or less even for us; for Bell at $17 million, there's almost no way to come out even unless he was to smash every record in the books, have a 3,000-yard rushing season with 100 receptions and such.

The third part of it is just the sheer amount of money involved. I don't know that we've ever had a player where the difference between what he wanted and what other star players were making was literally DOUBLE. Enough to actually sign a different star player and fit another full player in completely, and a very good one at that. Other times it's been "well, we could save $3 million and put it toward a better safety" or some hypothetical thing like that, followed by "how much better safety could you really get for another $3 million, it'd be almost the same situation," and so on. This is literally like - keep the existing guy, or fill two positions of need with star-level talent or very close, and try to draft his replacement.

I also don't think Conner or anyone else has shown anything to indicate we have his replacement on the roster. We'd have to go out and get someone. It may be a moot point anyway, because as I've said repeatedly, I don't think Bell is signing a long-term deal with us at any price. So we might as well treat that eventuality as the one we have to plan for.

I can see where your coming from and it sounds totally logical and reasonable to me.

I think that regardless of where and when Bell signs, he is going to be in for a rude awakening. Somewhere in a 12-14 million per window is likely attractive to 35-45% of the league. 15-17+ million per year? I don't think he gets anyone to bite on that.

I will throw this out there for consideration - star players in their primes do not make it to free agency anymore. If you want to have star players you have to draft and grow them in-house. The trick is to be able to pay them all when they come up for extensions. The only way in the last handful of years that having cap space and the need for a star player has aligned is to do what the Eagles and the Rams are doing - trade for guys that their current teams are scared they can't or don't want to sign. Long story short, I think cap space for outside players is over-rated. It is all about cap-space for the players already on your roster once those rookie deals expire.

[dislocatedday]

I've been opposed to the Steelers paying Bell close to $15M per year, and that is mostly because I compare that figure against what other top RBs make and it just seems so outrageous when viewed through that lens.

However, I can understand where Bell is coming from if I just compare him as a football player regardless of position. I see so many good (...but not truly great..) players making that kind of annual average salary, and when you look at what Bell does on the field he appears to contribute significantly more to the team overall and takes more physical abuse because of it than many of these guys who are getting close to $15M per season. Just yesterday a good D-lineman, Daniel Hunter with the Minnesota Vikings, was given a 5 year, $72 million contract with $40 million in guarantees. I look at Sammy Watkins getting $16 million a year from the Chiefs and there is no doubt in my mind Bell is much greater than Watkins. I could cite a bunch of other examples too.

I'm not trying to say Bell should be paid at that level, especially with his past suspensions, but I can understand his thinking that he is worth that level of money.

If he does get that big contract from the Steelers, I will still root for the guy on the field and hope he contributes mightily to the team's success. As of now, I don't see a bunch of guys on the defensive side that are stars who are going to command big contracts in the next 2-3 years, so maybe the team does pony up and pay another blue chipper on offense such as Bell. If Shazier was healthy then I would imagine he would have gotten a big deal this summer, but now that his future is in question, I don't see anybody else on the immediate horizon that they absolutely must sign long-term on defense. Heyward is under contract for the next 3, Tuitt for the next 4, TJ for the next 3 with an option year...........those are the only guys currently that I consider upper echelon on our defense as of today (and I am projecting for TJ just based on his rookie year).

[steelreserve]

I can see where your coming from and it sounds totally logical and reasonable to me.

I think that regardless of where and when Bell signs, he is going to be in for a rude awakening. Somewhere in a 12-14 million per window is likely attractive to 35-45% of the league. 15-17+ million per year? I don't think he gets anyone to bite on that.

I will throw this out there for consideration - star players in their primes do not make it to free agency anymore. If you want to have star players you have to draft and grow them in-house. The trick is to be able to pay them all when they come up for extensions. The only way in the last handful of years that having cap space and the need for a star player has aligned is to do what the Eagles and the Rams are doing - trade for guys that their current teams are scared they can't or don't want to sign. Long story short, I think cap space for outside players is over-rated. It is all about cap-space for the players already on your roster once those rookie deals expire.

You're right, they rarely do. The two exceptions are when the player is unhappy about something, or when the team just cannot afford the player due to the salary cap. (Basically the situations you described.)

Although sometimes you have players who don't get re-signed because the team thinks they're washed up or doesn't fit their plans but were wrong, or who the team lets go of because they're rebuilding - Haden was one such find, actually.

But yeah, one thing for sure is that you can't count on a good player being available at the position you want.

On the other hand, if someone was looking to trade their star ILB because his $9 million salary was too much, and the cost was a fifth-round pick, would we be in a position to do that deal if we were right up against the cap? So there are a bunch of situations where it could help, but the draft is the only one where you have full control.

[DesertSteel]

I mean what do you want to use as a performance criteria?

Ints? Haden had 1 Cockrell had 3.
Passes Defensed? Haden had 7. Rusty had 11.
Tackles? Haden had 20 versus Cockrell's 50.

I am not arguing that the 2017 or 2018 Steelers would be better off with Ross Cockrell as their starting CB. But I am arguing that Joe Haden does not perform on the field like a 9-11 million a year player. But no one seems to tear their hair out and it doesn't seem to weekly generate dozen page long message board threads. Yet the logic is roughly the same. Therefore a good portion of the Leveon Bell shouldn't be signed and the Steelers can be better off using the resources in other ways argument has to be emotional - at least to my flawed line of thinking. And that's fine, but it needs to be acknowledged.

That's because we actually watch the games and don't have to rely on stat geeks to tell us who can play. I don't care what those stats say about Cockrell, he sucks and Haden is a more than competent corner. So we are overpaying for one year to keep him. We are also overpaying for Bell at $14M for 4.0 YPC. Those same stat sites can show you how many RBs ran for more than 4.0 YPC last year.

At this point, we dance with who we brought. This time next year, neither will be a Steeler and the conversation will be more interesting.

And... really I am just putting my GM hat on and predicting major declines for a guy (Bell) who has lots of tread off his tires. I already saw it last year and I predict it gets worse this year.

[Mojouw]

That's because we actually watch the games and don't have to rely on stat geeks to tell us who can play. I don't care what those stats say about Cockrell, he sucks and Haden is a more than competent corner. So we are overpaying for one year to keep him. We are also overpaying for Bell at $14M for 4.0 YPC. Those same stat sites can show you how many RBs ran for more than 4.0 YPC last year.

At this point, we dance with who we brought. This time next year, neither will be a Steeler and the conversation will be more interesting.

And... really I am just putting my GM hat on and predicting major declines for a guy (Bell) who has lots of tread off his tires. I already saw it last year and I predict it gets worse this year.

I’m not going to belabor the point. Bottom line is despite any of our feelings about Joe Haden, he does not produce at the level he is paid. At that price he should be following around and erasing #1 WRs each week and creating turnovers. He does not currently do either, at least not consistently. Is Haden one of the problems on defense? Of course not. But if cap savings and not paying guys on the downswing are the two big deciding factors for Bell, Haden presents an interesting counter example.

None of this is to say that I realistically think that Bell should be paid 15-17 million dollars per season. But the team could do it for the next 3 years or so and not really lose out on much from the current roster. Extensions would stagger enough for other guys and Ben will come off the books, etc...etc...etc.

But, you hit the nail on the head - none of it really matters because both guys are gone after this year anyways.

[DesertSteel]

I think they are paying Haden for what he can be, and they hope he will be. He’s veteran insurance against all their youth. I think it could pay off. But we shall all see. Lots of guys were singing his praises on this board last year.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Lots of guys were singing his praises on this board last year.

I think a lot of us were just very happy to see an upgrade at CB, Haden was definitely better than any CB we had on our roster at that time.

[Dwinsgames]

Chris Boswell scored 158 points for the Steelers last year ..... Bell scored 78 ( 1/2 as many )

what if Boswell tried to use that as leverage for his contract and reset the kicker paydays ...

what would he have been seeking 40 million a year ?

see why stats can not be the primary logic in determining player values ?

Bell is a RB in a passing league he is over paid as it is considering those facts ..

lets not go to the " he is a #WR as well" because quite frankly he is NOT...

the numbers do not support it because if your #2 WR is averaging 7YPC you are in deep trouble Jesse James averages more and most want him upgraded because of low YPC numbers

[DesertSteel]

Boswell wanted to be paid like a guy who is both a FG kicker AND a kickoff kicker.

[Craic]

I mean what do you want to use as a performance criteria?

Ints? Haden had 1 Cockrell had 3.
Passes Defensed? Haden had 7. Rusty had 11.
Tackles? Haden had 20 versus Cockrell's 50.

I am not arguing that the 2017 or 2018 Steelers would be better off with Ross Cockrell as their starting CB. But I am arguing that Joe Haden does not perform on the field like a 9-11 million a year player. But no one seems to tear their hair out and it doesn't seem to weekly generate dozen page long message board threads. Yet the logic is roughly the same. Therefore a good portion of the Leveon Bell shouldn't be signed and the Steelers can be better off using the resources in other ways argument has to be emotional - at least to my flawed line of thinking. And that's fine, but it needs to be acknowledged.

The problem with those numbers is that it doesn't take into account opportunities. Last year, I'll guarantee QBs were taking a look at our corners and choosing to throw it away from Haden. In fact, perhaps the best statistic a CB could have is 0 INTs, 0 Passes defended, and 0 tackles because the QB always threw away from his side and ran plays away from his side.

[steelreserve]

The problem with those numbers is that it doesn't take into account opportunities. Last year, I'll guarantee QBs were taking a look at our corners and choosing to throw it away from Haden. In fact, perhaps the best statistic a CB could have is 0 INTs, 0 Passes defended, and 0 tackles because the QB always threw away from his side and ran plays away from his side.

Exactly.

"Passes defended" in particular is kind of a horseshit statistic if you ask me, because 9 out of 10 times when you successfully defend a pass, it's not because you got your hand on it and batted it down. It's because you were playing good coverage and it was a difficult throw that ended up being off-target, too hard for the receiver to catch, was simply thrown away, the QB made a low-percentage throw "where only the receiver had a chance at it," or you covered him long enough that the pass rush caused problems and the throw was a big nothing out of desperation. And that's not even counting the ones where the QB simply looks over, sees the receiver is covered, and moves on to the next target.

I mean, Haden wasn't perfect by any means, but he was the best CB on the team for long stretches, far better than anything we had in the recent past, and the difference was noticeable when he was in the game. Whether we paid him $7 million, $9 million, whatever, that's nitpicking compared to the fact that the pass defense no longer was a complete joke.

[Mojouw]

The problem with those numbers is that it doesn't take into account opportunities. Last year, I'll guarantee QBs were taking a look at our corners and choosing to throw it away from Haden. In fact, perhaps the best statistic a CB could have is 0 INTs, 0 Passes defended, and 0 tackles because the QB always threw away from his side and ran plays away from his side.

Maybe. But that wasn't what I saw last season. Haden is a reliable and competent CB at this point in his career, but for what he is being paid, he should be producing better outcomes.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings...ge/cornerback/

He is being paid like a top 20-25 CB. I do not see that level of performance on the field.

I am not calling for Haden to be cut or to have his role changed, but only made the point that everyone freaks out about Bell's stats per dollar and applying the same logic to Haden, he is paid twice as much as similar performing players.

But everyone likes Haden and dislikes Bell.

[steelreserve]

Maybe. But that wasn't what I saw last season. Haden is a reliable and competent CB at this point in his career, but for what he is being paid, he should be producing better outcomes.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings...ge/cornerback/

He is being paid like a top 20-25 CB. I do not see that level of performance on the field.

I am not calling for Haden to be cut or to have his role changed, but only made the point that everyone freaks out about Bell's stats per dollar and applying the same logic to Haden, he is paid twice as much as similar performing players.

But everyone likes Haden and dislikes Bell.

Two things about that ... one is that despite being highly paid, Haden is still playing for half the salary that Bell wanted. Another is that Haden seems to be a decent or at least neutral person/teammate to the casual observer, even a "good guy" if you are one of those people who pays a lot of attention to all the off-the-field stuff. Whereas Bell is a jackass very loudly and publicly at every opportunity, skips out on his team despite being paid very handsomely, and seems to have outside interests primarily centered around smoking weed and other dumb shit. Basically checking every box on the "Lousy guy / lousy teammate / lousy role model" list. Congratulations, you got the hat trick.

Perhaps that's why people like one guy more than the other.

[Mojouw]

Two things about that ... one is that despite being highly paid, Haden is still playing for half the salary that Bell wanted. Another is that Haden seems to be a decent or at least neutral person/teammate to the casual observer, even a "good guy" if you are one of those people who pays a lot of attention to all the off-the-field stuff. Whereas Bell is a jackass very loudly and publicly at every opportunity, skips out on his team despite being paid very handsomely, and seems to have outside interests primarily centered around smoking weed and other dumb shit. Basically checking every box on the "Lousy guy / lousy teammate / lousy role model" list. Congratulations, you got the hat trick.

Perhaps that's why people like one guy more than the other.

Right - I understand why people react differently to the two guys. It is not confusing. I also like Haden far more than Bell.

All of this is being dragged up from months ago and doesn't really matter now. But my only point was that MB posters, bloggers, podcasters, and pundits both here and across the Steelers related internet were attempting to parse their evaluation of Bell's "value" as coldly clinical and logical. I wanted to point out, largely to be a pain, that the exact same chain of logic leads you to conclude that Haden is pretty over-paid.

Again, none of this matters now and will only matter if by some bizarre chain of events, the Steelers and Bell actually begin to negotiate in 2019.

[Fire Goodell]

My boy Conner gonna get it done

[DesertSteel]

Right - I understand why people react differently to the two guys. It is not confusing. I also like Haden far more than Bell.

All of this is being dragged up from months ago and doesn't really matter now. But my only point was that MB posters, bloggers, podcasters, and pundits both here and across the Steelers related internet were attempting to parse their evaluation of Bell's "value" as coldly clinical and logical. I wanted to point out, largely to be a pain, that the exact same chain of logic leads you to conclude that Haden is pretty over-paid.

Again, none of this matters now and will only matter if by some bizarre chain of events, the Steelers and Bell actually begin to negotiate in 2019.

Another factor which you didn’t mention is that the Steelers have been starved for talent at the CB position for years. Not so much at RB. This makes fans over-value even the perception of an upgrade - i.e., Haden.

[Mojouw]

Another factor which you didn’t mention is that the Steelers have been starved for talent at the CB position for years. Not so much at RB. This makes fans over-value even the perception of an upgrade - i.e., Haden.

Which is yet another reason that most of the discussion on the internet about either Haden or Bell is mostly emotional and not logic based - the point of the original comment during the height of the will or won't the Steelers make Bell a big offer debate.

[AtlantaDan]

FWIW Bell is not the only high profile RB who is not getting a lot of reps with his offense preseason

Los Angeles Rams running back and reigning NFL Offensive Player of the Year Todd Gurley isn't concerned that missing the preseason could lead to a slow start to the regular season."That is everyone's dream, to not play in the preseason," Gurley said. He added, "Some guys just like being out there to get a feel for it and to see. But not this guy."

Coach Sean McVay on Thursday said that Gurley would not play in the preseason.
"We've done a little bit different approach in terms of working him out just with some things going on just in his lower half," McVay said. "Just getting him up to speed in the way that we've kind of felt like to get him at his best."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...play-preseason

"Working him out just with some things going on just in his lower half"? Does that mean Gurley is even running plays from scrimmage in practice?

[Fire Goodell]

practice?

[Edman]

Fun fact: Gurley just got a fancy brand spanking new contract, and has a history of dogging it (2016).

So Bell sitting out because contract doesn't exactly hold much water.

[AtlantaDan]

Fun fact: Gurley just got a fancy brand spanking new contract, and has a history of dogging it (2016).

So Bell sitting out because contract doesn't exactly hold much water.

Not defending Bell - just observing Bell might be put in bubble wrap even if he reported (e.g. - doubtful AB plays a snap this preseason/Falcons will not be playing Julio Jones or Devonta Freeman at all this preseason) as teams increasingly try to avoid key players getting injured while still sticking season ticket holders for paying for 2 preseason games as part of a season ticket package

[DesertSteel]

Which is yet another reason that most of the discussion on the internet about either Haden or Bell is mostly emotional and not logic based - the point of the original comment during the height of the will or won't the Steelers make Bell a big offer debate.

Without emotion there really are no sports. Fandom is based on emotion and without the fans Bell isn't asking for $17M, but trying to sell enough life insurance in the offseason to make ends meet.

- - - Updated - - -

Not defending Bell - just observing Bell might be put in bubble wrap even if he reported (e.g. - doubtful AB plays a snap this preseason/Falcons will not be playing Julio Jones or Devonta Freeman at all this preseason) as teams increasingly try to avoid key players getting injured while still sticking season ticket holders for paying for 2 preseason games as part of a season ticket package

Or sticking it to the fans by letting your star players get injured in preseason. It's a catch 22....

Preseason is about who makes the team and who starts. Guys who are locked in at their positions don't need to play at all IMO.