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Thread: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

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    How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Starting new Bell thread with link to this P-G article since mods directed previous Bell thread to be closed after OTAs ended

    See you in September: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    The question facing the Steelers this summer is whether they should have a different plan in place for Bell once he does report around Labor Day. Even though Bell had another terrific season he got off to an uncharacteristically slow start, and the Steelers offense fought through an early season funk as a result.

    “I think we did learn something,” offensive lineman Ramon Foster said....

    “Reflecting on what transpired last year — and we did play against some good defenses early in the year, I will say — but I think we have to know we have to bring it a little more than them,” Foster said. “As great as Le’Veon is, we have to supplement what he does also. We have to make his job a lot easier. The fact that he’s not here, all of us are OK with that because we know what he’s bringing to the table. He comes right every year. He might take time to get going, but we have to be better prepared for that.”...

    He has to do what he has to do. He has a family.”

    http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201806140177

    No surprise the official party line from the players is to support Bell going for all he can get

    But if Bell "comes right every year" how is it he "might take time to get going"?

    Bell did not get going until week 4 last season

    http://www.nfl.com/player/le%27veonb...40175/gamelogs

    So the Steelers apparently expect not be at full strength for the Browns, Chiefs & Bucs games

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    As I’ve mentioned in every Bell thread...

    IMO, Bell’s slow start in 2017 was more due to him recovering from groin surgery than it was from time missed.

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    As I’ve mentioned in every Bell thread...

    IMO, Bell’s slow start in 2017 was more due to him recovering from groin surgery than it was from time missed.

    I don't know about that ...

    https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/l...groin-surgery/


    Seemed to me like he got off to a slow start because he was rusty. He was rusty because he missed training camp. He missed training camp because of (contract bitching/groin, circle one).

    Given that he probably won't come to training camp this year over contract bitching, it seems safe to say he would've missed it last year too, with or without the surgery. That may have just been the "official" line because it gave everyone a way out without looking like a jerk and pointing fingers. Whew!
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    I don't know about that ...

    https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/l...groin-surgery/


    Seemed to me like he got off to a slow start because he was rusty. He was rusty because he missed training camp. He missed training camp because of (contract bitching/groin, circle one).

    Given that he probably won't come to training camp this year over contract bitching, it seems safe to say he would've missed it last year too, with or without the surgery. That may have just been the "official" line because it gave everyone a way out without looking like a jerk and pointing fingers. Whew!
    Ted Cruz just “looked good” in a basketball game against Jimmy Kimmel...

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Ted Cruz just “looked good” in a basketball game against Jimmy Kimmel...
    I didn't see that, but it sounds hilarious.

    Anyway though, the point is more like ... if you're "too injured" to go to football practice in August, why were you playing basketball at more or less full speed in June? If there's one activity other than football that puts the most strain on those areas with quick cuts and shifting weight, basketball would be pretty high up on the list.

    At any rate, recovery from surgery is usually like a month to 8 weeks if it's not repairing major tears, and the timing of him playing basketball seems to back that up. To then turn around and say injury prevented him from participating in the preseason, but was miraculously healed the very next week to allow him to play in a pro game ... well, that just sounds like a bunch of bullshit.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Ted Cruz just “looked good” in a basketball game against Jimmy Kimmel...
    Ted Cruz = Grayson Allen. Should have been a blowout???



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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Ted Cruz just “looked good” in a basketball game against Jimmy Kimmel...
    Jimmy Kimmel has a lot of holes in his game...

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    I didn't see that, but it sounds hilarious.

    Anyway though, the point is more like ... if you're "too injured" to go to football practice in August, why were you playing basketball at more or less full speed in June? If there's one activity other than football that puts the most strain on those areas with quick cuts and shifting weight, basketball would be pretty high up on the list.

    At any rate, recovery from surgery is usually like a month to 8 weeks if it's not repairing major tears, and the timing of him playing basketball seems to back that up. To then turn around and say injury prevented him from participating in the preseason, but was miraculously healed the very next week to allow him to play in a pro game ... well, that just sounds like a bunch of bullshit.
    CRUZ vs. KIMMEL:
    It was pretty cool, really. Jimmy Kimmel made a joke about how un-athletic Ted Cruz looked, referring to Cruz as a”blobfish”. Instead of being butthurt about it, Ted Cruz challenged Kimmel to a one-on-one basketball game (where the loser had to donate $5,000 to a charity of the winner’s choice).

    Ted Cruz pretty much kicked his butt.

    BASKETBALL:
    Recovery to walk freely/full range of motion is 8 weeks. Recovery to play a charity basketball game: 4 months. Recovery to play a sport at a professional level: 8 months.

    I remember a few years back, when Tom Brady (or some other high profile player) was recovering from a knee surgery, and was spotted at a charity basketball game. People went apeshit. But, a charity game it very different than playing in the NBA (and/or playing in the NFL).

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    Jimmy Kimmel has a lot of holes in his game...
    That’s because he spends too much time rapping...

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    4 of 5 seasons in his career he has either missed the start of the season entirely due to injuries/suspensions or started off slow due to not being at camp. Looks like he wants to make it 5 of 6. The dude is simply unreliable.

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell





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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    4 of 5 seasons in his career he has either missed the start of the season entirely due to injuries/suspensions or started off slow due to not being at camp. Looks like he wants to make it 5 of 6. The dude is simply unreliable.
    100% correct. Lev Bell suffers from the millennial disease know as Entitlement, he thinks due to his skill he can slack off and act like a thug and when Week 1 arrives it should be all hail King Bell. It's getting old and what he isn't taking into consideration is the average shelf life of an NFL running back.

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    As I have stated in numerous threads over the years, many players would play for free and consider their salary as reimbursement for practicing. Bell takes it to the extreme.
    All Defense!

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by Neversatisfied View Post
    100% correct. Lev Bell suffers from the millennial disease know as Entitlement, he thinks due to his skill he can slack off and act like a thug and when Week 1 arrives it should be all hail King Bell. It's getting old and what he isn't taking into consideration is the average shelf life of an NFL running back.
    Slack off? That is one thing Bell has never been accused of. In fact, he's taken up boxing to keep himself in cardio shape and do so without excess damage to the knees. Also, whenever Bell was under contract, he showed up without a problem. So, the issue is not his work ethic. It's that he sees dollar bills instead of reality.


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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by ALLD View Post
    As I have stated in numerous threads over the years, many players would play for free and consider their salary as reimbursement for practicing. Bell takes it to the extreme.
    I doubt any current player considers the physical toll on their body and the 24/7/365 level it takes to succeed in the NFL something they would do for free. That “love of the game” stuff is mostly misty eyed fluff pieces from sportswriters and agent speak. Most of these guys are dead eyed mercenaries when it comes to the contract stuff. Fans have loyalties. Players and teams conduct business.

    Look at Peyton Manning’s career. Dude talked endlessly about his love for the game and desire to win. But he never took a penny less in contract negotiations to help the team fill out the gaping holes in the lineup around him.

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    Slack off? That is one thing Bell has never been accused of. In fact, he's taken up boxing to keep himself in cardio shape and do so without excess damage to the knees. Also, whenever Bell was under contract, he showed up without a problem. So, the issue is not his work ethic. It's that he sees dollar bills instead of reality.
    Have to agree, despite the guy kinda being a douche, he puts in work. You don't get a physique like his from slacking off, dudes got like a 12 pack lol

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    I wish I could just decide to not go to work because I thought I wasn't getting paid enough... Well, I could do that I guess, but I'd definitely be out of a job if I did.

    "If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." Jack Lambert, 1990 HoF Introduction.

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    Jimmy Kimmel has a lot of holes in his game...
    His worst hole is his mouth since he became a full blown Hollywood sellout. The man-show Kimmel was the polar opposite.

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Since we have never gone to the Super Bowl with Bell, who can present a valid argument? I think I would push the list to 12. Mind you, I'm not saying that there are 12 RBs just as good as Bell, but that we'd have equal or close chances of going to the Super Bowl with those 10-12 replacements.

    Gerry Dulac Can Find 10 RBs That Give Steelers Equal Chance of Winning As Bell

    http://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/06...nning-as-bell/

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Since we have never gone to the Super Bowl with Bell, who can present a valid argument? I think I would push the list to 12. Mind you, I'm not saying that there are 12 RBs just as good as Bell, but that we'd have equal or close chances of going to the Super Bowl with those 10-12 replacements.

    Gerry Dulac Can Find 10 RBs That Give Steelers Equal Chance of Winning As Bell

    http://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/06...nning-as-bell/
    especially when you consider all the $$$ saved that could be used for other positions.

    like an inside linebacker maybe

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Since we have never gone to the Super Bowl with Bell, who can present a valid argument? I think I would push the list to 12. Mind you, I'm not saying that there are 12 RBs just as good as Bell, but that we'd have equal or close chances of going to the Super Bowl with those 10-12 replacements.

    Gerry Dulac Can Find 10 RBs That Give Steelers Equal Chance of Winning As Bell

    http://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/06...nning-as-bell/
    Who are they?

    Using this list - https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=Y

    There are not 12 guys at the RB position who can get you 1500-2000 yards from scrimmage per season. There are like 6, counting Bell.

    Again, I don't want to rehash the dollar value and attitudes of Leveon Bell. But the low-level effort by Steelers focused media to subtly rewrite the narrative that Bell is "just a guy" is just insulting to most of our intelligence. Because "an equal chance of winning" with a list of 10-12 guys means that Bell is basically a slightly above average NFL RB. I mean there are only 32 starting backs in the league. So do the math.

    I mean that is the same rough argument as stating that there are two dozen WRs in the league that would give the Steelers the same chance of winning as AB.

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Who are they?

    Using this list - https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=Y

    There are not 12 guys at the RB position who can get you 1500-2000 yards from scrimmage per season. There are like 6, counting Bell.

    Again, I don't want to rehash the dollar value and attitudes of Leveon Bell. But the low-level effort by Steelers focused media to subtly rewrite the narrative that Bell is "just a guy" is just insulting to most of our intelligence. Because "an equal chance of winning" with a list of 10-12 guys means that Bell is basically a slightly above average NFL RB. I mean there are only 32 starting backs in the league. So do the math.

    I mean that is the same rough argument as stating that there are two dozen WRs in the league that would give the Steelers the same chance of winning as AB.
    Or 10-12 guys in the league that gives the Steelers the same chance of winning as Ben R.


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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Who are they?
    Hunt, Gurley, Elliott, Barkley, McCoy, Fournette, Johnson, Kamara, Ingram, Gordon, Freeman, Lewis. There's 12 that I'd feel perfectly capable of giving us a good enough running game to get to the Super Bowl. There's no need to respond that Bell is better, because that's not my argument.
    There are not 12 guys at the RB position who can get you 1500-2000 yards from scrimmage per season. There are like 6, counting Bell.
    So you're saying that gaining 1500-2000 is a prerequisite for getting to the Super Bowl? Do you have any evidence to support that theory?

    Again, I don't want to rehash the dollar value and attitudes of Leveon Bell. But the low-level effort by Steelers focused media to subtly rewrite the narrative that Bell is "just a guy" is just insulting to most of our intelligence. Because "an equal chance of winning" with a list of 10-12 guys means that Bell is basically a slightly above average NFL RB. I mean there are only 32 starting backs in the league. So do the math.

    I mean that is the same rough argument as stating that there are two dozen WRs in the league that would give the Steelers the same chance of winning as AB.
    Bell is not the only RB who is not "just a guy." Seems that you missed my point. I didn't say that there were 12 RBs just as good (though I'd say there are at least 5), but that we could get to the Super Bowl with them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    Or 10-12 guys in the league that gives the Steelers the same chance of winning as Ben R.
    How many QBs have been to the Super Bowl since Ben last went? There's the answer to your question.

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Hunt, Gurley, Elliott, Barkley, McCoy, Fournette, Johnson, Kamara, Ingram, Gordon, Freeman, Lewis. There's 12 that I'd feel perfectly capable of giving us a good enough running game to get to the Super Bowl. There's no need to respond that Bell is better, because that's not my argument.

    So you're saying that gaining 1500-2000 is a prerequisite for getting to the Super Bowl? Do you have any evidence to support that theory?


    Bell is not the only RB who is not "just a guy." Seems that you missed my point. I didn't say that there were 12 RBs just as good (though I'd say there are at least 5), but that we could get to the Super Bowl with them.

    - - - Updated - - -


    How many QBs have been to the Super Bowl since Ben last went? There's the answer to your question.
    "As good a chance" and "getting to the SB" are not the same thing. If I have a 95% chance of getting drunk tonight because my favorite drinking buddy won the lottery versus a 55% chance because I'm drinking alone in the dark -- I'm still likely going to get drunk, but the chance is not the same. Poor analogy (and I'm not drinking alone in the dark!) but the point holds.

    1500-2000 yards from scrimmage is what Leveon Bell is responsible for in the current Steelers offense. Those yards would need replaced/replicated if he were to leave. Based on last year's stats, the only backs in the league who can come close to the top of that range are Gurley and Hunt. The rest fall 400 yards or more short. Those 400+ yards have to come from somewhere.

    Ben R and the passing game is going to be most people's answer, but Ben put up 4251 yards last season. He only topped that twice in his career (4328 in 2009 and 4952 in 2014) and equaled it one other time (4261 in 2013). So just a look at the stats and math indicates that when Bell leaves, the offense is likely going to be down about say 400 yards from scrimmage over the course of a season. Now that likely isn't enough to really change all that much since it is about 25 yards per game. But, I have to imagine that if you give an offense 25 yards less per game it has to negatively impact their chances of winning those games. They still may win them all and go from 90% down to 80%, but it isn't the same.

    And that is my point. Dulac and others are acting like you can stand anyone back there and the results will be roughly the same. They simply won't. Based on raw #'s the only other players in the league who matches Bell across categories is Gurley. Everyone else falls far short in one category or another. Take YAC. Bell is 3rd in a cluster of 4 RBs at the top (https://www.footballdb.com/stats/sta...=C&sort=recyac) and then it falls off. So Bell is clearly doing something besides taking a pass in the flat and falling down. Dulac argues that Bell "Doesn't make Ben better" -- well WTF is YAC measuring then? What about pass blocking? Bell is one of the best in the business. Watch the first JAX game from last year. At least one of the interceptions is because Conner got Ben plastered missing a block. That pick was when the wheels came off in that game. Think losing that game had an impact on the team's chances of going to the SB?

    Is a Steelers offense built on the foundation of Ben R, a fleet of WR talent, and a lesser RB or a RB by committee more than capable of winning a SB? Absolutely. Are their chances the same? No. Is that difference enough to matter? We are certainly going to find out in about 18 months.

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Who are they?

    Using this list - https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=Y

    There are not 12 guys at the RB position who can get you 1500-2000 yards from scrimmage per season. There are like 6, counting Bell.
    Of course if your measuring stick for 21st century success in the NFL is the Patriots (which it should be), the only time the Pats won the Super Bowl and had a clear stud at RB was Corey Dillon in 2004 (345 carries - 1635 yards)

    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/nwe/2004.htm

    Otherwise no one back carried the entire load and achieved eye popping stats.

    Links to other Pats SB winning seasons here with lead RB stats

    2001
    Antowaine Smith - 1157 rushing/192 receiving

    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/nwe/2001.htm

    2003
    Kevin Faulk - 638 rushing/440 receiving
    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/nwe/2003.htm

    2014
    Shane Vereen- 391 rushing/447 receiving
    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/nwe/2014.htm

    2016
    LaGarrette Blount - 1161 rushing/38 receiving
    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/nwe/2016.htm

    IMO if having an All Pro running back was essential to winning a Super Bowl the market rate for RBs would reflect that

    I agree with Dulac that what is nice to have and what is essential in winning a Super Bowl are not the same

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Why is the argument that "good enough to win a super bowl" and "have the same chance" not being the same thing so hard to understand?

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Why is the argument that "good enough to win a super bowl" and "have the same chance" not being the same thing so hard to understand?
    In terms of having the same chance, the Pats won 4 out of the past 17 Super Bowls without a Bell level back - which is 4 more than the Steelers have made with Bell as the main RB, when he did not make it through the playoffs in three of his four playoff seasons

    I would not be surprised that if you went through the past 17 seasons you would find the majority of SB champions did not have an All Pro level talent at RB

    Two of them played in Pittsburgh

    2005
    Willie Parker - 1225 rushing/218 receiving
    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/pit/2005.htm


    2008
    Mewelde Moore - 588 rushing/320 receiving (more combined yards than Parker)
    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/pit/2008.htm

    If your goal is to have a better chance to win a fantasy league then putting so many chips on Bell is logical - in terms of devoting a big share of your salary cap to him when the measuring stick is Lombardis, not so much. The Steelers had good reason to fall in love with Bell starting in in 2014, but since this no longer the 70s, having a great RB is no longer the key to success that it was when Csonka and Franco roamed the field. The Steelers arguably are using a flawed model for winning another championship

    Tomlin put it best in 2008 - "Every morning when I come to work I walk past five Lombardis, not five rushing titles"

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    Senior Member Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute"> DesertSteel's Avatar

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Why is the argument that "good enough to win a super bowl" and "have the same chance" not being the same thing so hard to understand?
    It's an easy formula. How many rings does Bell have? You act as if it's Tom Brady that will be replaced.

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    It's an easy formula. How many rings does Bell have? You act as if it's Tom Brady that will be replaced.
    How many rings does Gurley have? Elliott?? Kamara???

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    Re: How the Steelers plan for another late arrival by Le'Veon Bell

    Along those same lines...

    How many SuperBowls has AB won?

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