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Thread: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    I don't want to drag this on indefinitely, so let me just say that you make some good points and there obviously is more to the story than "racism is everywhere" or "people are complaining for no reason." Unfortunately, the furthest the public dialogue gets are soundbites paraphrasing one of those, and shouted through a megaphone, because being loud and rude is what carries the most attention. So I don't have a lot of faith in that process to accomplish much that's meaningful.

    The last couple of things I want to say: First, that a very big difference in the appearance of this current state of events, compared to civil rights movements in the past, is that the racial villain is more often than not an ambiguous "they" with unclear motives - whereas in, say, the 1960s, it was unmistakably clear who it was and why they were doing it. I won't pretend to argue the merits of one movement versus the other, but that appearance is why the present one leaves a sour taste in many people's mouths, as if they are being unfairly targeted in the chase for a hypothetical bogeyman.

    Second is that many of the current grievances, on a macro level (as opposed to the isolated encounters with bottom-percentile racists-at-large) ... seem like they have much more to do with poverty than anything else, including race. No mistake about it, being poor sucks. On the other hand, you will find the same type of problems in Watts as you will in a favela in Sao Paulo, or for that matter in some dogshit town in the Jersey pine barrens. Just with different drugs and with different twists on it. As one family friend from just such a dogshit town remarked on his first trip through West Oakland (in which numerous examples of dangerous or cracked-out behavior were evident, complete with a dude getting arrested in an apparent domestic violence incident): "This ain't black people's problems, this is poor people's problems."

    While tragic and undoubtedly frustrating, chalking that up to race rubs people the wrong way. Unless I'm mistaken, the public conversation about these subjects a decade ago was much more focused on the kinds of practical problems related to poverty, with a lot less of the racial vitriol - and may have actually been leading somewhere if they had let it. Instead it gets taken over by a bunch of shrieking extremists who clearly are in it for their own reasons, and as a result have probably set race relations back a good 20 years. The whole thing is just utterly disappointing.
    I've always blamed much of what you point to on the short or even non-existent attention span of the American electorate. Systemic problems related to race, class, poverty, orva toxic stew of all of that mess carry far reaching decades long consequences. Often the long term fallout from a problem exists far past the commonly understood solution.

    Poverty is perhaps the easiest example of this. While barriers to creating and curating generational wealth for any particular group be it white or black may have been removed some time ago, the drag that barrier created is felt for multiple generations.

    In the meantime, the national conscious moves on and then years later it is "oh. This crap again."

    The entangled nature of crime, poverty, and race is a significant hurdle to any attempt at clarity on these issues.

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I've always blamed much of what you point to on the short or even non-existent attention span of the American electorate. Systemic problems related to race, class, poverty, orva toxic stew of all of that mess carry far reaching decades long consequences. Often the long term fallout from a problem exists far past the commonly understood solution.

    Poverty is perhaps the easiest example of this. While barriers to creating and curating generational wealth for any particular group be it white or black may have been removed some time ago, the drag that barrier created is felt for multiple generations.

    In the meantime, the national conscious moves on and then years later it is "oh. This crap again."

    The entangled nature of crime, poverty, and race is a significant hurdle to any attempt at clarity on these issues.

    So, just to bring this back to the original topic and hopefully bring my own argument to a semi-logical conclusion ... yeah, it's pretty clear that there are problems facing these groups of people and it's no joke.

    On the other hand, the message "these problems are all some other person's fault, here's a middle finger" does not go very far - either toward getting people on your side, or toward actually fixing the problems.

    And THAT is what I think is the masterful piece of manipulation on the part of the political parties and certain activists. Getting people talking about that instead of anything practical; getting them to be angry and toxic rather than constructive; for that matter, making it mostly about racism rather than mostly about poverty. Not only creating sharp divisions along race and class identity lines - also all but assuring nothing will change. There were constructive ways to approach the problem, and there is what we are left with now, which is The Narrative. The people controlling that message are not trying to be helpful, they're just trying to cement anger in place to raise their own importance, which is despicable. They see some stooge like Kaepernick take their message and run with it on his own, they couldn't be happier. But it sure isn't helping anyone who needs help.

    /rant
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    So, just to bring this back to the original topic and hopefully bring my own argument to a semi-logical conclusion ... yeah, it's pretty clear that there are problems facing these groups of people and it's no joke.

    On the other hand, the message "these problems are all some other person's fault, here's a middle finger" does not go very far - either toward getting people on your side, or toward actually fixing the problems.

    And THAT is what I think is the masterful piece of manipulation on the part of the political parties and certain activists. Getting people talking about that instead of anything practical; getting them to be angry and toxic rather than constructive; for that matter, making it mostly about racism rather than mostly about poverty. Not only creating sharp divisions along race and class identity lines - also all but assuring nothing will change. There were constructive ways to approach the problem, and there is what we are left with now, which is The Narrative. The people controlling that message are not trying to be helpful, they're just trying to cement anger in place to raise their own importance, which is despicable. They see some stooge like Kaepernick take their message and run with it on his own, they couldn't be happier. But it sure isn't helping anyone who needs help.

    /rant
    That's where we are going to have to part ways. I really think you are misrepresenting the nature of protest, activism, and advocacy in a very narrow view.

    The implication that very few protesters, advocates, or activists are practicing free will and are all products of some manipulative meta-narrative being constructed by vaguely alluded to factions within political parties and social justice groups is more than a little hard to swallow.

    Additionally, very few of the protesters (specifically NFL anthem protesters) have directed blame onto specific individuals. Much of their protests has been to provide a highly visible and intentionally confrontational symbol to raise awareness on a set of issues - specifically the often toxic relationship between police and African-American communities. Discussion on the appropriateness and the efficacy of this approach is useful and important, but essentially doubting the validity of the protesters actions is problematic.

    Essentially, very few conspiracy theories make sense from a macroscopic level of analysis. What you are sketching out requires the coordinated subversion of multiple social justice movements at numerous levels. Hell, the CIA had a hard enough time attempting to pull-off similar escapades during the height of the Cold War and they had far more reach and resources than the DNC. The DNC can't even run a primary without openly tripping over their own two feet -- but the implications appear to be that a long-term coordinated strategy of manipulation, infiltration, and direction of messages and activities by advocacy groups has taken place. Additionally, much of the conversation about this group is blaming that group for thing X is usually coming from some pundit putting their own mangled interpretation on a complex issue. Since most of the people who are employed to talk, speak, and write about political and social events on American media are incredibly stupid and largely ignorant of anything aside from how to cash their paycheck, they spew an almost constant stream of non-sense and half-truths from all directions.

    Finally, the identification of problems, assignation of blame, and then a giant middle finger has historically been the shortest path towards big change. No one ever likes it and it hasn't always worked, but from Luther nailing his treatises to a church door, to the Boston Tea Party, to Ghandi's mass protest, to sit-ins at Southern lunch counters -- picking a target and tell them to go screw themselves until something changes is essentially the fundamental operating principle of a protest.

    Like I said earlier, no one has to agree on this or any other issue. That's the great thing about where we live. But at least people are talking about it. Far better than pretending it doesn't exist.

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    That's where we are going to have to part ways. I really think you are misrepresenting the nature of protest, activism, and advocacy in a very narrow view.

    The implication that very few protesters, advocates, or activists are practicing free will and are all products of some manipulative meta-narrative being constructed by vaguely alluded to factions within political parties and social justice groups is more than a little hard to swallow.

    Additionally, very few of the protesters (specifically NFL anthem protesters) have directed blame onto specific individuals. Much of their protests has been to provide a highly visible and intentionally confrontational symbol to raise awareness on a set of issues - specifically the often toxic relationship between police and African-American communities. Discussion on the appropriateness and the efficacy of this approach is useful and important, but essentially doubting the validity of the protesters actions is problematic.

    Essentially, very few conspiracy theories make sense from a macroscopic level of analysis. What you are sketching out requires the coordinated subversion of multiple social justice movements at numerous levels. Hell, the CIA had a hard enough time attempting to pull-off similar escapades during the height of the Cold War and they had far more reach and resources than the DNC. The DNC can't even run a primary without openly tripping over their own two feet -- but the implications appear to be that a long-term coordinated strategy of manipulation, infiltration, and direction of messages and activities by advocacy groups has taken place. Additionally, much of the conversation about this group is blaming that group for thing X is usually coming from some pundit putting their own mangled interpretation on a complex issue. Since most of the people who are employed to talk, speak, and write about political and social events on American media are incredibly stupid and largely ignorant of anything aside from how to cash their paycheck, they spew an almost constant stream of non-sense and half-truths from all directions.

    Finally, the identification of problems, assignation of blame, and then a giant middle finger has historically been the shortest path towards big change. No one ever likes it and it hasn't always worked, but from Luther nailing his treatises to a church door, to the Boston Tea Party, to Ghandi's mass protest, to sit-ins at Southern lunch counters -- picking a target and tell them to go screw themselves until something changes is essentially the fundamental operating principle of a protest.

    Like I said earlier, no one has to agree on this or any other issue. That's the great thing about where we live. But at least people are talking about it. Far better than pretending it doesn't exist.

    Yeah, I don't think we're going to ever see eye-to-eye on this, but it's good to actually hear the other side's position in a format that is not a screaming match. You make some good points (people's oversimplification of the issue, especially by the media and others whose job it is to make noise), and some ones I don't agree with at all (I mean, the DNC explicitly stated that this was their strategy; that's why they were so upset about the leaked documents exposing the fact that they were willing to deliberately manipulate their constituents. As is often said, the bigger the conspiracy, the less likely it is to remain secret, and this plus the primary clusterfuck are a great example of one that didn't).

    As you said, everyone doesn't have to agree, and that's OK. One very positive thing about this message board is that there are a number of people who, even if they have the completely opposite viewpoint of your own, still have the ability to say something worth listening to, and to hold a more or less civil conversation about it. Whether it's football-related or something like this. That is actually pretty rare for the internet (hell, I look at my own friends idiotically parroting every media soundbite and party talking point when they talk about politics on social media, and just shake my head). So know that is much appreciated.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Yeah, I don't think we're going to ever see eye-to-eye on this, but it's good to actually hear the other side's position in a format that is not a screaming match. You make some good points (people's oversimplification of the issue, especially by the media and others whose job it is to make noise), and some ones I don't agree with at all (I mean, the DNC explicitly stated that this was their strategy; that's why they were so upset about the leaked documents exposing the fact that they were willing to deliberately manipulate their constituents. As is often said, the bigger the conspiracy, the less likely it is to remain secret, and this plus the primary clusterfuck are a great example of one that didn't).

    As you said, everyone doesn't have to agree, and that's OK. One very positive thing about this message board is that there are a number of people who, even if they have the completely opposite viewpoint of your own, still have the ability to say something worth listening to, and to hold a more or less civil conversation about it. Whether it's football-related or something like this. That is actually pretty rare for the internet (hell, I look at my own friends idiotically parroting every media soundbite and party talking point when they talk about politics on social media, and just shake my head). So know that is much appreciated.
    Classy cheers time!


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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Could care less anymore about the Flag convo. I just want to watch some Championship winning Steeler Football.

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Terry Bradshaw supports Eagles in anthem dispute with President

    Posted by Mike Florio on June 10, 2018

    FOX News may be with the President and against the Eagles when it comes to the anthem dispute, but one of FOX’s primary NFL faces and voices supports the defending Super Bowl champions.

    Terry Bradshaw, whose weekly FOX NFL Sunday duties will expand to Thursday Night Football in 2018, told TMZ while eating a meal in New York City (can’t they at least wait until these people are leaving the restaurant, like the old days?) that he supports the Eagles.

    “I agree with the Eagles, totally, 100 percent,” Bradshaw said. “Trump just needs to . . . go somewhere and enjoy the money he’s got.”

    to read rest of article:

    https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ith-president/

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    There are so many layers to this conversation and can be almost overwhelming and a lot of it was covered so I will try and be brief with my thoughts (I probably wont be lol).

    - The best place to start is probably why these conversations are so hard to have to begin with. It is becoming more and more difficult to find people who can come into a discussion without preconceived notions about who they are talking to. Just things I have experienced first hand would be being called racist multiple times along with being called a Trump supporter (who I didn't vote for mind you). I am not sure if this is the originator of this saying or similar sayings but a man by the name of Stephen R. Covey said "Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply". If that doesn't summarize every problem we have in regards to all of this I don't know what does.

    - As for the anthem and kneeling there are 2 parts to my opinion on that:

    1. For me it is a very black and white issue (no pun intended for those who think it is all about race) and I don't see what all of the fuss is over. Players have the right as free citizens in our country to kneel and speak as they please. On the other hand, teams and the NFL have the right as business owners to implement rules that they feel are beneficial to business. So unless the CBA grants the players any kind of legal power there is really no argument to be had here. Just like with every other citizen of the US we have freedoms but there is also freedom of consequence if you will. NFL players aren't special and aren't granted special rights just because they are famous. Again, I am not against the players kneeling, but I am against this being made such a big issue when this same occurence applies broadly across our country. If you work for someone else, you work under there rules. It is as simple as that. The NBA has a stricter policy in regards to the anthem and nobody really mentions anything about that. Somewhat hypocritical if you ask me. I get the NFL handled it poorly but ultimately that shouldn't matter.

    I just want to include that I can't stand arguments from people when they say "the original poem was racist" or "this is forced patriotism". Those are nonsense arguments. 99% of people can't recite the original poem and the racist parts of said poem aren't in the anthem so that isn't relevant to the conversation either. It is an emotional argument meant to stir people up and get knee jerk reactions. "What, we are making black people stand to honor a song that is racist?". No, they are honoring the men and women who died fighting for that flag which includes people of all races. Pretty much the same goes for the forced patriotism thing. Kids say the pledge of allegiance and people stand for the anthem, nobody has ever made that argument until it suddenly became an issue when what multiple players did suddenly became bad for business and they were reprimanded for it. Those arguments take what should be a straight forward issue about freedom of speech vs the power of business, and make it racial and political which is never good for trying to advance a conversation.

    So to summarize point one, I am fine with players kneeling, but I am also fine with people voicing their opinions on the issue if they disagree. We can't talk about freedom of speech in regards to the players and then tell people to shut up when they disagree with the players stance. That is 100% hypocrisy.


    2. This is a bit of a smaller point but my main issue with Kaepernick was that I feel like he didn't really think through his approach when this all began. What I mean is, I knew from the second this was reported on where the conversation was headed and I knew it wasn't headed towards police brutality and social injustice and sure enough, I was right. I think it takes a lot of courage to be the first to do something and standout like Kaepernick did so respect where it is due but man, what a dumb move in my opinion. The whole idea here is that we need to come together (see: unify) to solve these problems. So Kaepernick decided the best course of action was to separate himself and standout during the most unifying moment on the entire planet. Regardless of his intention he should have known the results would be bad. Anyway, I am not here to bash Kaepernick but I bring this up because the ripple effect is happening now. Players are becoming as focused on themselves and the injustices against their "freedom of speech" as they are with the actual issues they want to protest for to begin with. They fell into the trap.


    The next thing I want to talk about is politics/Trump. I am not a big fan of people pointing the finger that way and getting so up in arms about these things. Look, Trump is devisive and added fuel to the fire but what ever happened to "stick and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"? He called them sons of bitches and told them to leave.....so what? You are grown ass men and have probably heard worse from your coaches growing up. You can be mad at him and hate his politics, but he has no power over the NFL. He isn't the cause of your problems. The owners losing money and the NFL having lower ratings are the cause of your problems. We can talk about how Trump should stay out of it and act more presedential (and he should) but again, I feel like that detracts from the issue. It is pointing the blame somewhere else. Which leads to my next point and I am pretty adamant about this one. I think players are foolish for not going to the white house when given the oppurtunity. And I don't just mean the Eagles now with Trump. I am talking about guys who skipped out on Obama as well. You get a chance to go and meet the president and have direct access to him. I don't know how good the chances are but you may have an oppurtunity to sit down and discuss these things with him and try to find some common ground. It is probably highly unlikely that you do but you should always take the chance. If you disagree with his politics you are one of very few people in this country who get the chance to voice it directly to his face instead of from a Twitter handle. Be an adult and go tell him to his face. Side point quickly, I know he ultimately rescinded the invite but that was after he knew so many weren't coming. The main focus here is talking about players should go and try and take the chance to tell the president how they feel and have these conversations. Particularly when it comes to Trump by showing they can rise above his pettiness and be the bigger person.


    And now for the last part and that is the topic these protests are supposed to focus on anyway. I don't think this is really the place for a long discussion but I did just want to drop a couple of ideas I had in regards to potential solutions to the problems we see:


    1. I am the only person I know to mention this but it isn't like I have actively researched conversations on the topic. When the resources are available, they should always dispatch an officer who is the same race as the suspect or POI. Cultural differences will always exist and differences lead to fear. It is unreasonable to expect white people who have mostly spent time with other white people to understand those differences, or black people who have mostly spent time around black people to understand those differences. So in the short term, make it about race lol. If a black person has the cops called on them, find a black officer to send out to handle it. To further this point and I know it is probably way easier said then done, they should try and hire officers to locations they are familiar with and have knowledge of. You don't bring a black guy from Baltimore and make him a cop in Nebraska and you don't take a white guy from Beverly Hills and put him in Chicago. Find people who can relate to and understand their area of work.

    2. The longer term solution is that it starts with the youth. Cycles are hard to break and you can't unsee what you grow up seeing and hearing. So start getting kids field trips to police stations and bringing cops into schools on a weekly or monthly basis to start forming positive relationships early on. If parents have suffered at the hands of police and are constantly bad mouthing them, how do we expect the kids to think of police when they are older? We are all molded by our parents and experiences. Adults already have the right idea in certain places with community outreach and things of that nature but it needs to go further. Get police interacting with kids and showing them that there are tons of good cops and good people in uniform. Don't let the bad ones spoil the whole bunch for you.

    3. As some have pointed to here, there needs to be strong emphasis on families being whole. I think that is extremely important (for any race) and not talked about it enough politically. I don't pretend to have all of the answers but I am sure people smarter than me could think of ways to incentivize families and come up with programs to not only benfit families, but to do more for single mothers as well. With that being said, don't get me started on how broken the child support system is in screwing over a lot of good fathers who are out there as well. That is a whole other rant though.


    Anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue.

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyphon25 View Post

    3. As some have pointed to here, there needs to be strong emphasis on families being whole.

    I think that is extremely important (for any race) and not talked about it enough politically.
    Agreed.

    And this is arguably a much larger issue.
    "With love, with patience, and with Faith
    ....She'll make her way" ~ Natalie Merchant

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    This upcoming season, I am going to wait until kickoff to tune in. I have no desire to watch how the anthem protests will play out live. I just want to focus on the football side

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    This upcoming season, I am going to wait until kickoff to tune in. I have no desire to watch how the anthem protests will play out live. I just want to focus on the football side
    I normally watch on DVR with some build-up in order to skip commercials. I can't remember the last time I watched anything before the kickoff on a regular season game.

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    NFL, NFLPA announce 'standstill' on anthem rules after Dolphins report

    With the Miami Dolphins facing backlash after submitting required paperwork to the NFL that included potential disciplinary measures for player protests during the national anthem, the league has decided to hit pause on its new policy, sources told ESPN.

    The league and the NFL Players Association issued a joint statement Thursday that said "no new rules relating to the anthem will be issued or enforced for the next several weeks" while both sides continue to hold discussions to figure out how to move forward.

    to read rest of article:

    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...l-anthem-rules

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Again, just go back to the way it was and the players and coaches come out AFTER the anthem.

    The military and the league can do their displays on the field or whatever agreement they have.

    This is truly a cluster F and the NFL and BOZO Der Komissar are to blame. Another issue that Goodhell has mishandled yet again.

    I don't even watch until kickoff.



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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by tube517 View Post
    Again, just go back to the way it was and the players and coaches come out AFTER the anthem.

    The military and the league can do their displays on the field or whatever agreement they have.

    This is truly a cluster F and the NFL and BOZO Der Komissar are to blame. Another issue that Goodhell has mishandled yet again.

    I don't even watch until kickoff.
    Agreed. This is what happens when a bunch of not that smart rich people try and "solve" a puzzle. The NFL always seems to confuse activity with achievement. They feel this need to be seen to be doing something, anything on any given issue. Forgetting that it is better to take your time and be effective with your actions. Morons.

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    This again? Jesus christ. Well, I suppose it was inevitable, given the way they farted around for a year and then tried to address it with an overlawyered half-measure.

    This is the kind of thing that happens when the way you run things is basically hipshooting in reaction to every story the media jumps on. A pattern that started with Goodell being led around like a dog and apparently has just become the way the whole league does business now.

    It's pretty comical, actually - the media just picks a divisive theme to focus on for the year and then watches the league slam its dick in the door over and over. ESPN Concussion Sunday and omg they're out to brain-damage our kids; domestic violence and omg they're teaching everyone to be sexist; Trump Trump Trump and omg they're trying to start a race war (that one's been so good they're doing sequels!). And the league STILL takes the bait every time. Like, actually making rule changes and suspending people and affecting the game on the field. It's no way to run a business, let alone one of the biggest and most publicly visible sports leagues on the planet.

    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Written by Ted Nugent [1] - yes, THAT Ted Nugent

    “Take a little trip to Valley Forge in January. Hold a musket ball in your
    fingers and imagine it piercing your flesh and breaking a bone or two.
    There won't be a doctor or trainer to assist you until after the battle, so
    just wait your turn. Take your cleats and socks off to get a real
    experience.

    Then, take a knee on the beach in Normandy where man after American man
    stormed the beach, even as the one in front of him was shot to pieces, the
    very sea stained with American blood. The only blockers most had were the
    dead bodies in front of them, riddled with bullets from enemy fire.

    Take a knee in the sweat soaked jungles of Vietnam. From Khe Sanh to
    Saigon, anywhere will do. Americans died in all those jungles. There was no
    playbook that told them what was next, but they knew what flag they
    represented. When they came home, they were protested as well, and spit on
    for reasons only cowards know.

    Take another knee in the blood drenched sands of Fallujah in 110 degree
    heat. Wear your Kevlar helmet and battle dress. Your number won't be
    printed on it unless your number is up! You'll need to stay hydrated but
    there won't be anyone to squirt Gatorade into your mouth. You're on your
    own.

    There are a lot of places to take a knee where Americans have given their
    lives all over the world. When you use the banner under which they fought
    as a source for your displeasure, you dishonor the memories of those who
    bled for the very freedoms you have. That's what the red stripes mean. It
    represents the blood of those who spilled a sea of it defending your
    liberty.


    While you're on your knee, pray for those that came before you, not on a
    manicured lawn striped and printed with numbers to announce every inch of
    ground taken, but on nameless hills and bloodied beaches and sweltering
    forests and bitter cold mountains, every inch marked by an American life
    lost serving that flag you protest.

    No cheerleaders, no announcers, no coaches, no fans, just American men and
    women, delivering the real fight against those who chose to harm us,
    blazing a path so you would have the right to "take a knee." You haven't
    any inkling of what it took to get you where you are, but your "protest" is
    duly noted. Not only is it disgraceful to a nation of real heroes, it
    serves the purpose of pointing to your ingratitude for those who chose to
    defend you under that banner that will still wave long after your jersey is
    retired.

    If you really feel the need to take a knee, come with me to church on
    Sunday and we'll both kneel before Almighty God. We'll thank Him for
    preserving this country for as long as He has We'll beg forgiveness for our
    ingratitude for all He has provided us. We'll appeal to Him for
    understanding and wisdom. We'll pray for liberty and justice for all,
    because He is the one who provides those things. But there will be no
    protest. There will only be gratitude for His provision and a plea for His
    continued grace and mercy on the land of the free and the home of the
    brave. It goes like this, GOD BLESS AMERICA!”
    Last edited by Dwinsgames; 07-20-2018 at 02:58 PM.
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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Hmmm...Ted Nugent first got a student deferment to avoid being drafted into Vietnam then he got reclassified as 4F (unfit for service) while he was out of school and a full-time touring musician. He even claimed he purposely got the 4F designation by being drugged out (meth) and neglecting his personal hygiene during medical reviews. Nugent has since claimed that story was made up to make him look better for a "High Times" magazine interview.

    Bottom line, Nugent twice got out of being drafted. Made some "rock and roll cred" on being a drugged out draft dodger when that was cool and now that it is better for his career to wrap himself in the flag and support the military he does that. Plus the "High Times" story conflicts with his straight-edge image during much of his career from the 1970's forward. Wonder if brazen marketing of the "Nugent" brand might have something to do with all of this?

    Putting all that aside, Nugent had ample opportunity for the service and sacrifice he seems to hold so dear and ensured that he would not be asked to serve. Why does he get to take some sort of moral patriotic high-ground now?

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    I don't like the policy either, they need to keep politics out of football. I personally like to watch the games as an escape from the bullshit of real life. I'd go watch the news if I wanted anything to do with politics.

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    Senior Member Array title="Dwinsgames has a reputation beyond repute"> Dwinsgames's Avatar

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Hmmm...Ted Nugent first got a student deferment to avoid being drafted into Vietnam then he got reclassified as 4F (unfit for service) while he was out of school and a full-time touring musician. He even claimed he purposely got the 4F designation by being drugged out (meth) and neglecting his personal hygiene during medical reviews. Nugent has since claimed that story was made up to make him look better for a "High Times" magazine interview.

    Bottom line, Nugent twice got out of being drafted. Made some "rock and roll cred" on being a drugged out draft dodger when that was cool and now that it is better for his career to wrap himself in the flag and support the military he does that. Plus the "High Times" story conflicts with his straight-edge image during much of his career from the 1970's forward. Wonder if brazen marketing of the "Nugent" brand might have something to do with all of this?

    Putting all that aside, Nugent had ample opportunity for the service and sacrifice he seems to hold so dear and ensured that he would not be asked to serve. Why does he get to take some sort of moral patriotic high-ground now?

    your point ?

    it does not discredit what he feels now as a man in his late 50s early 60s ( or whatever his age is )

    it does not change the spirit of the piece written ....

    many once believe Kordell Stewart could become a good or even great QB , many also believed it was a good move to draft Gabe Rivera with Marino still on the board but did that make them horrible evaluators ? nope it just made them wrong on that specific scenario...

    Why does he get to take some sort of moral patriotic high-ground now?
    because he can

    you can debate the ethics of a 18-20 year old Nugent all day but it does not effect how correct he is in that writing and if you think it does then I got nothing left to say about that other than you are wrong
    Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    your point ?

    it does not discredit what he feels now as a man in his late 50s early 60s ( or whatever his age is )

    it does not change the spirit of the piece written ....

    many once believe Kordell Stewart could become a good or even great QB , many also believed it was a good move to draft Gabe Rivera with Marino still on the board but did that make them horrible evaluators ? nope it just made them wrong on that specific scenario...



    because he can

    you can debate the ethics of a 18-20 year old Nugent all day but it does not effect how correct he is in that writing and if you think it does then I got nothing left to say about that other than you are wrong
    OK. So the actions, words, and deeds of a person only matter if you don't agree with them? If you can so readily excuse the actions of young Ted Nugent (he would have been 18 in 1966 and 27 when the war ended) during the same age range of the current NFL players everyone wants condemn, why don't they get any slack? Why are they not young or hot-headed or however else we typically excuse the excesses of youth?

    We can look at the "Nug's" career and see that his increasingly confrontational political opinions really only came to the forefront when his career was flagging and he realized his core audience held similar views. But that couldn't have anything to do with it. Nope. No chance.

    I mean how easy is it to sidestep the opportunity to back-up your ideals and morality by serving in Vietnam instead choosing to make a bunch of money as a rock-star. Now when it is fantastically beneficial to your career to take a hard-line stance on patriotism, service, and country, suddenly you are all about duty and sacrifice?

    He can't have his cake and eat it too.

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Hmmm...Ted Nugent first got a student deferment to avoid being drafted into Vietnam then he got reclassified as 4F (unfit for service) while he was out of school and a full-time touring musician. He even claimed he purposely got the 4F designation by being drugged out (meth) and neglecting his personal hygiene during medical reviews. Nugent has since claimed that story was made up to make him look better for a "High Times" magazine interview.

    Bottom line, Nugent twice got out of being drafted. Made some "rock and roll cred" on being a drugged out draft dodger when that was cool and now that it is better for his career to wrap himself in the flag and support the military he does that. Plus the "High Times" story conflicts with his straight-edge image during much of his career from the 1970's forward. Wonder if brazen marketing of the "Nugent" brand might have something to do with all of this?

    Putting all that aside, Nugent had ample opportunity for the service and sacrifice he seems to hold so dear and ensured that he would not be asked to serve. Why does he get to take some sort of moral patriotic high-ground now?

    One could make the same argument about the kneelers themselves. What are their "credentials" for protesting, as a group of mostly multimillionaire entertainers who do not experience any of the perceived wrongs they are upset about?

    Or is it just that they have strong feelings about an issue, and want to use their public visibility as a platform to support others who ARE living it on a day-to-day basis? (Isn't that exactly the same as what Nugent is doing?)

    For that matter, Colin Kaepernick, the person who kicked off the whole fiasco, did so after leading what is likely one of the least-oppressed lives out of anybody in the history of the entire world, and he would have less than zero credibility by that standard.

    I do not really care about Ted Nugent one way or the other, but this is actually a pretty good counterexample to the entire debate.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

  22. #172
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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    One could make the same argument about the kneelers themselves. What are their "credentials" for protesting, as a group of mostly multimillionaire entertainers who do not experience any of the perceived wrongs they are upset about?

    Or is it just that they have strong feelings about an issue, and want to use their public visibility as a platform to support others who ARE living it on a day-to-day basis? (Isn't that exactly the same as what Nugent is doing?)

    For that matter, Colin Kaepernick, the person who kicked off the whole fiasco, did so after leading what is likely one of the least-oppressed lives out of anybody in the history of the entire world, and he would have less than zero credibility by that standard.

    I do not really care about Ted Nugent one way or the other, but this is actually a pretty good counterexample to the entire debate.
    I can get on board with that, and in fact I believe that all sides of the debate are free to express their opinion. But I have not read any statements by a single kneeling player that calls out specific individuals or derides anyone's ability to disagree with their positions they way Nugent's posted statement attempts to make the NFL kneelers appear totally illegitimate and anti-American.

    As I have repeatedly said, I truly believe it is possible to simultaneous love and respect your country and the sacrifices made to secure freedoms while visibly protesting the aspects of our contemporary society that have negatively impacted your life or a group of people you wish to support.

    Messages such as that written by Nugent not only attempt to air his perspective, but it also both implicitly and explicitly paints protesters as not worthy of attention and somehow this makes any claims/opinions they have totally unnecessary of any attention by any one else. That's some oppressive and heavy-handed shit from a dude who is all hat and no cowboy.

    FWIW, I have long agreed with some of the elements of Nugent's message. I have been weary and disgusted by the inappropriate aspects of life that we use war metaphors for and feel that we too often forget how this whole thing really works and we consistently honor the wrong people as heroes and role models. BUT -- that doesn't mean I have to crap all over people who feel totally differently then me. If we all opened our ears and listened, actually listened to one another, maybe one of the many depressingly awful things about American life would change for the better, for everyone.

    Or we could just keep painting those we don't agree with as somehow worse than us. That is all I was attempting to point out. It is not so much the content of Nugent's message, it his unnecessarily vindictive and reductive delivery that I find totally ridiculous.

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    Senior Member Array title="Dwinsgames has a reputation beyond repute"> Dwinsgames's Avatar

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    OK. So the actions, words, and deeds of a person only matter if you don't agree with them? If you can so readily excuse the actions of young Ted Nugent (he would have been 18 in 1966 and 27 when the war ended) during the same age range of the current NFL players everyone wants condemn, why don't they get any slack? Why are they not young or hot-headed or however else we typically excuse the excesses of youth?

    We can look at the "Nug's" career and see that his increasingly confrontational political opinions really only came to the forefront when his career was flagging and he realized his core audience held similar views. But that couldn't have anything to do with it. Nope. No chance.

    I mean how easy is it to sidestep the opportunity to back-up your ideals and morality by serving in Vietnam instead choosing to make a bunch of money as a rock-star. Now when it is fantastically beneficial to your career to take a hard-line stance on patriotism, service, and country, suddenly you are all about duty and sacrifice?

    He can't have his cake and eat it too.

    so Kap ( and his cronies) are good with you ( apparently teams feel differently hence unemployed also see Eric Reid )


    and once again ... regardless how you feel about Uncle Ted , his words on that piece of paper stand true whether you like it or not
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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Or we could just keep painting those we don't agree with as somehow worse than us. That is all I was attempting to point out. It is not so much the content of Nugent's message, it his unnecessarily vindictive and reductive delivery that I find totally ridiculous.
    This is the major hangup I have with most conversations be it political or otherwise. There is more time spent vilifying than there is on actual conversational content. It is something I have pointed out in my other post with the protestors as they currently are. They are spending as much time fighting about protesting as they are talking about the subjects they are protesting for.

    Seems like everyone just too easily falls into these traps that seem so obvious to me. If I was a player protesting the next time I was asked about it I would say "the NFL is doing their best to silence us and detract from the issue but I am only going to talk about subject X (be is social injustice or otherwise)". That way you can paint the NFL as bad guys while also steering the conversation back towards what is actually important. Instead all we hear about is the actual protest and not what the protest is about.

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyphon25 View Post
    This is the major hangup I have with most conversations be it political or otherwise. There is more time spent vilifying than there is on actual conversational content. It is something I have pointed out in my other post with the protestors as they currently are. They are spending as much time fighting about protesting as they are talking about the subjects they are protesting for.

    Seems like everyone just too easily falls into these traps that seem so obvious to me. If I was a player protesting the next time I was asked about it I would say "the NFL is doing their best to silence us and detract from the issue but I am only going to talk about subject X (be is social injustice or otherwise)". That way you can paint the NFL as bad guys while also steering the conversation back towards what is actually important. Instead all we hear about is the actual protest and not what the protest is about.
    Yeah. The best "redirection" attempt I saw was Malcom Jenkins and his silent interview with poster cards. What was the most fascinating was how the assembled reporters just still couldn't understand what he was attempting to say. All Jenkins wanted was them to discuss the issues and not his actions or the league response. They totally refused for well over 10 minutes.

    There have been many attempts by the protesting players to rather directly discuss and detail what they are protesting, but the media simply does not want to discuss that. Content focused on a adversarial confrontation between the league, the players, and the fans generates more "hits" and "views" so all we get is a simplified version of staggeringly complex set of issues. This leads to frustration and fatigue on all sides. Until the issue slowly peters out and nothing changes.

    Weird. Almost like the money in charge of almost everything wants stuff to stay exactly as it is...

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    I went back and edited the Nugent written piece ..... I placed in Bold the central part of it that is where I stand 100% with ...

    its how I feel ... period

    call me wrong , call me ignorant , whatever but at the end of the day my mind will not be changed
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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    so Kap ( and his cronies) are good with you ( apparently teams feel differently hence unemployed also see Eric Reid )


    and once again ... regardless how you feel about Uncle Ted , his words on that piece of paper stand true whether you like it or not
    It isn't about "good" or "bad". It is about giving all viewpoints a fair hearing. I'll listen to what Kap and other protesters have to say on issues. I will stop listening to them when they engage in reductive ad hominen attacks on individual or even group targets. Just as I did with Nugent's post. I did not attack his opinion nor the content of his message. I simply pointed out that he may want to be cautious about claiming some sort of morally superior position on this issue.

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    I went back and edited the Nugent written piece ..... I placed in Bold the central part of it that is where I stand 100% with ...

    its how I feel ... period

    call me wrong , call me ignorant , whatever but at the end of the day my mind will not be changed
    I feel the same way you do...

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Ted Nugent is a dirtbag who made a career off people who have bad taste in music anyway. Who gives a f what he thinks lmao.

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    Re: Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    As I have repeatedly said, I truly believe it is possible to simultaneous love and respect your country and the sacrifices made to secure freedoms while visibly protesting the aspects of our contemporary society that have negatively impacted your life or a group of people you wish to support.

    Let me talk about that part first, as it ties in to the bigger point you are making about civility and respect in general as it relates to the current political climate.

    I firmly believe that the protesters would have found a far, far more receptive audience if they had not picked what is quite likely THE worst possible time, place, and manner to get their point across. Not specifically because it's the flag, or because of people's feelings about patriotism and whatever - but simply because the meaning was already taken by something else and was very firmly established. Double bonus that the specific meaning for many people (honoring war veterans) is largely unrelated to what the protests are about, AND is often a very powerful and personal one.

    I literally cannot think of any better way to take the focus off of your own message and get people talking instead about whether or not YOU are a jerk. Which is exactly what happened.

    There are some people who say, "Well, the whole point is that you NEED to draw attention to the cause, so choosing a target like that and making people 'uncomfortable' was a brilliant move!" On a practical basis, I would disagree very strongly with that. Alienating people is certainly one way of getting their attention, but generally does the opposite of converting them to your cause. Especially since this is an issue that most people, by and large, were already aware of; you were not going to find any new recruits to your cause that way.

    The one thing it probably DOES do is strengthen people's existing opinions on the subject. Either you already agree with their point and you get more galvanized in favor of it, or you already disagree with their point and now you start resenting them for their actions, not just disagreeing with their message.

    For example, last time I took my kids to the circus, these assholes were outside with posters of animals being beaten and tortured, and they were shouting at everyone who was walking in the door. My reaction was not "Now that you have my attention, I'll consider your point," it was "I came here to enjoy myself, not get a lecture on morality, so FUCK YOU and your cause." And this was for a protest that, while more in-your-face than kneeling for a song is, was actually somewhat relevant to the event. Certainly a lot more connected to the circus than general racial anger is connected to a football game. The overall principle is the same, though - you are not going to win any converts that way, just amplify existing opinions and get people angrier at each other.

    And in a broader sense, this is just a microcosm of the entire political climate. On almost every significant topic, everyone has their minds made up and their heels dug in, and the only "discussion" that takes place is primarily through an endless stream of soundbites and memes trying to paint the other side as people who are crazy or evil with no real reason for being that way. And the more that goes on, the more it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy; people's political opinions and social discourse really ARE reduced to the mental equivalent of potato chips. A real problem with the country and the Kaepernick story is a great example of it.

    edit: I just wanted to say that overall, I do think your point is right on the money, and a lot of people on both sides of the political spectrum share the blame for the monkey-shit-fight that is the current state of public affairs.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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