Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

[Mojouw]

not to be judgmental or anything but are you not in some way doing that very thing here to a man you never met sat down with or spoken to ?

seems eerily pot calling the kettle black here to me but I digress because it is going to seem like I am picking on you when I truly am not

It's possible, but I am not trying to totally invalidate Nugent's message. Just want to point out that he paints a binary distinction that one side is moral and honorable while the other isn't. I think that's BS. Good and honorable people are in both sides. Both sides also feature dirtballs. Just like any group anywhere in life.

I'm also sure that since I personally find Nugents opinions on women, minorities, and a few other subjects totally deplorable that I'm taking some extra shots at him. But I'll stand behind the larger point.

Protesters have asked to have a public conversation about a specific set of social grievances and have attempted to back these grievances with facts, figures, and other data points. Rarely have they attacked individuals. The other side offers little to counter their grievances but instead offers ad hominem attacks on morality, character, and motivations. Figure maybe someone turns that around and sees what it looks like he otger way around.

Like I said before, most of the message I don't have any problem with. Just the bits where he implies he is better than others because of a muddled bit of reasons.

Finally and coincidentally, I found this like 5 minutes ago on a completely unrelated to any of this website. Thought some may find it interesting. Challenging perspective.

http://www.wbur.org/onlyagame/2018/0...store-francona

[Dwinsgames]

http://www.wbur.org/onlyagame/2018/0...store-francona

this kind of skews the premise of the article does it not ?

note military fly over , note servicemen in the scene ... prior to when they claim it started ...seems this has been going on a long long time from my recollection but hey I am old sometimes memories get distorted but even the grainy video below shows it

for the record ray Charles as famous as he was never got his due IMO

[Mojouw]

this kind of skews the premise of the article does it not ?

note military fly over , note servicemen in the scene ... prior to when they claim it started ...seems this has been going on a long long time from my recollection but hey I am old sometimes memories get distorted but even the grainy video below shows it

for the record ray Charles as famous as he was never got his due IMO

Yeah, I got no idea.

Maybe that some special game?

Ray Charles is impossible to over rate.

[Dwinsgames]

Yeah, I got no idea.

Maybe that some special game?

Ray Charles is impossible to over rate.

a little research I came up with this .... its a long standing tradition in many countries signifying different occasions and not just done here in the US at sporting events

hell even Luciano Pavarotti had a fly over at his funeral

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flypast

[Born2Steel]

For me, the drug use or non use is a red herring. The take away is the Nugent penned a message that was an attempt to paint anyone who kneels as dishonoring all service members and their sacrifice and somehow unworthy of having their voices heard because they are lacking a Nugent sanctioned perspective.

He had multiple chances to engage in the honor, duty, sacrifice, God and country service he claims to hold so dear. But he choose the life of a touring rock star.

I find his attempt to now sieze some moral high ground and discredit individuals he has never met or spoken to duplicitous, mean spirited, an obvious attempt to keep his "brand" in the news, and more than a little bit dishonest.

Returning to the drug story, he let it ride for some time. He tore the lie until it didn't work for him anymore. Branding.

There are a lot of people out there that say things, post things, even some with their own social platform or radio/tv show, that just enjoy the conflict. Example, why post a picture on social media of a giraffe you hunted knowing the backlash it will produce? I think Ted Nugent is one of these people.(That wasn't him with the giraffe just fyi) Ted says things on his radio show or in interviews on other platforms that are purely inflammatory and meant to cause angry reaction. Whether you agree with any or all of his views or not you can see it in the choice of words he uses. I do not like or follow anyone on social media that uses these tactics. I still listen to Ted's music and would love to see him in concert one more time. But like you I disagree with his method of expression when it comes to politics.

[Mojouw]

There are a lot of people out there that say things, post things, even some with their own social platform or radio/tv show, that just enjoy the conflict. Example, why post a picture on social media of a giraffe you hunted knowing the backlash it will produce? I think Ted Nugent is one of these people.(That wasn't him with the giraffe just fyi) Ted says things on his radio show or in interviews on other platforms that are purely inflammatory and meant to cause angry reaction. Whether you agree with any or all of his views or not you can see it in the choice of words he uses. I do not like or follow anyone on social media that uses these tactics. I still listen to Ted's music and would love to see him in concert one more time. But like you I disagree with his method of expression when it comes to politics.

Yeah, there is no doubt dude can play some decent music!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[teegre]

I liked Ray Charles in Django Unchained. Great movie. But, I still don’t know how he was able to hit those target dead-on (you know... with him being blind & all).

[hawaiiansteeler]

I liked Ray Charles in Django Unchained. Great movie. But, I still don’t know how he was able to hit those target dead-on (you know... with him being blind & all).

I thought Jamie Foxx did a great job of portraying him in the movie "Ray".

and Django Unchained is a classic!

[hawaiiansteeler]

[hawaiiansteeler]

Bengals owner says he’s been “instructed” to avoid anthem talk

Posted by Darin Gantt on July 24, 2018

The NFL failed to make its national anthem problem go away by making a unilateral policy designed to appease a person who drags them out for parties like a pinata, so maybe a gag order will work.

According to Katherine Terrell of ESPN.com, Bengals owner Mike Brown was asked about the anthem policy Tuesday, and said owners had been “instructed” to stay out of it.

“The league and the union are talking on this and we’re instructed to stand down while that’s ongoing,” Brown said. “I’m not going to sit here and stir the pot. They don’t want to hear from me right now. Let’s see how this bubbles up and I hope they can come up with some kind of answer that is acceptable to not just the clubs and the players but more the public.”

Brown then added with a laugh: “And let’s not forget the president!”

Of course, no policy the NFL comes up with is going to do that, because Donald Trump has decided it’s a political winner for him. Earlier today while addressing a VFW gathering in Kansas City, he ran the NFL up the proverbial flagpole again.

“We don’t apologize for America anymore,” Trump said. “We stand up for America. We stand up for the patriots who defend America. And we stand up for our national anthem.”

to read rest of article:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...d-anthem-talk/

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Bengals owner says he’s been “instructed” to avoid anthem talk

Posted by Darin Gantt on July 24, 2018

The NFL failed to make its national anthem problem go away by making a unilateral policy designed to appease a person who drags them out for parties like a pinata, so maybe a gag order will work.

According to Katherine Terrell of ESPN.com, Bengals owner Mike Brown was asked about the anthem policy Tuesday, and said owners had been “instructed” to stay out of it.

“The league and the union are talking on this and we’re instructed to stand down while that’s ongoing,” Brown said. “I’m not going to sit here and stir the pot. They don’t want to hear from me right now. Let’s see how this bubbles up and I hope they can come up with some kind of answer that is acceptable to not just the clubs and the players but more the public.”

Brown then added with a laugh: “And let’s not forget the president!”

Of course, no policy the NFL comes up with is going to do that, because Donald Trump has decided it’s a political winner for him. Earlier today while addressing a VFW gathering in Kansas City, he ran the NFL up the proverbial flagpole again.

“We don’t apologize for America anymore,” Trump said. “We stand up for America. We stand up for the patriots who defend America. And we stand up for our national anthem.”

to read rest of article:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...d-anthem-talk/

Smartest move so far by the NFL. Stop talking about the issue and work on it with the NFLPA and its members without it playing out in the media.

I think Trump still harbors some bad feelings towards the NFL from his not being able to get a franchise, so he and others had to form the USFL. That is probably why he likes wading in and stirring things up/piling on the NFL and this when he can.

[Mojouw]

Smartest move so far by the NFL. Stop talking about the issue and work on it with the NFLPA and its members without it playing out in the media.

I think Trump still harbors some bad feelings towards the NFL from his not being able to get a franchise, so he and others had to form the USFL. That is probably why he likes wading in and stirring things up/piling on the NFL and this when he can.

Weird. So you're saying he's a vindictive man who will gladly use any issue to settle old scores? What a shocking idea. An old rich guy acting like a petulant child. Let's not forget that Trump and company ran the USFL into the ground.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Jerry Jones told players they can’t stay in locker room during anthem

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...during-anthem/

[tom444]

Smartest move so far by the NFL. Stop talking about the issue and work on it with the NFLPA and its members without it playing out in the media.

I think Trump still harbors some bad feelings towards the NFL from his not being able to get a franchise, so he and others had to form the USFL. That is probably why he likes wading in and stirring things up/piling on the NFL and this when he can.

That and he's sucking up to his base.

[Mojouw]

These idiots just can't keep from tripping over their own feet on this.

Just stop talking about it. Present and maintain a united front. Then establish a functional relationship with the union on social issues and how to best use the league to disseminate a message.

That's all it takes to get this out of the news. But since the league lacks leadership and the owners are entitled children aside from the few remaining old guard, they will continue to fall flat.

[steelreserve]

These idiots just can't keep from tripping over their own feet on this.

Just stop talking about it. Present and maintain a united front. Then establish a functional relationship with the union on social issues and how to best use the league to disseminate a message.

That's all it takes to get this out of the news. But since the league lacks leadership and the owners are entitled children aside from the few remaining old guard, they will continue to fall flat.

I don't know if being "entitled" is the main problem. This is just the same issue that has been snowballing in the league for about two decades, namely that the owners are trying to run it like you would run a regular corporation that sells insurance or mobile phone service or whatever. And regular corporations basically do what the lawyers tell them to do, which means every new policy is the most flat, awkward, ham-handed way of handling things, which just is not compatible with a huge entertainment business right in the public spotlight.

Adding on top of that mess a couple dozen guys who are used to being the top dog, each with his own plan that MUST be the best one, and you get an idiot gridlock situation. The one person who might be able to actually keep the ship on course is a commissioner who knows what the hell he's doing, but all Goodell contributes is an even worse version of both those problems.

For as much as the NBA has its own issues and Adam Silver looks like an alien, that sure is a night and day comparison. There's how you run a league with gigantic egos everywhere you look on both sides of the fence, and actually SOLVE problems instead of making them worse.

[Mojouw]

I don't know if being "entitled" is the main problem. This is just the same issue that has been snowballing in the league for about two decades, namely that the owners are trying to run it like you would run a regular corporation that sells insurance or mobile phone service or whatever. And regular corporations basically do what the lawyers tell them to do, which means every new policy is the most flat, awkward, ham-handed way of handling things, which just is not compatible with a huge entertainment business right in the public spotlight.

Adding on top of that mess a couple dozen guys who are used to being the top dog, each with his own plan that MUST be the best one, and you get an idiot gridlock situation. The one person who might be able to actually keep the ship on course is a commissioner who knows what the hell he's doing, but all Goodell contributes is an even worse version of both those problems.

For as much as the NBA has its own issues and Adam Silver looks like an alien, that sure is a night and day comparison. There's how you run a league with gigantic egos everywhere you look on both sides of the fence, and actually SOLVE problems instead of making them worse.

I think that there are multiple owners in the league who are the definition of entitled. They continually refuse to follow league directives, they pop off with their own opinions whenever they feel like it, they ignore or disregard policy whenever convenient for them, and there is zero sense of small sacrifice for the greater good.

These are arrogant, stubborn, cranky rich dudes who can not function in a day to day where their opinion doesn't become action by those around them.

You hit the nail on the head, the NBA has had a much stronger central office along with a unified front with the union and is therefore able to offer a check to owners running wild. Goodell has no such lever to pull on when he needs it. As a result the NFL looks foolish and amateurish.

[steelreserve]

I think that there are multiple owners in the league who are the definition of entitled. They continually refuse to follow league directives, they pop off with their own opinions whenever they feel like it, they ignore or disregard policy whenever convenient for them, and there is zero sense of small sacrifice for the greater good.

These are arrogant, stubborn, cranky rich dudes who can not function in a day to day where their opinion doesn't become action by those around them.

You hit the nail on the head, the NBA has had a much stronger central office along with a unified front with the union and is therefore able to offer a check to owners running wild. Goodell has no such lever to pull on when he needs it. As a result the NFL looks foolish and amateurish.

Maybe I just have a different notion of what "entitled" means. I would call "arrogant" a more fitting word for the personality problems you are talking about, and it does describe most of the owners dead-on. Like, arrogant means you are cocky based on a history of being the top dog. Entitled is when you think you're important but you're not.

"Entitled" has also just become such a go-to phrase for airing any grievance against anyone living more than a gritty middle-class existence, that it has mostly lost all meaning except as a toxic modifier employed to help steer a discussion toward an argument.

That aside, I think we're basically talking about the same thing - which is that the owners carrying over both the business strategies and personality issues from their previous occupations have left the league dysfunctional and aimless.

It's hard to say whether the NBA is doing a better job because of the nature of the commissioner's office or because of the man. No question that league is run much differently with the central office taking the lead role and the owners staying at 30,000 feet. But for that, the owners need a high level of faith that the commissioner can just handle shit for them. Clearly, the NFL owners don't have that same trust, and increasingly feel like they need to grab the wheel to get through the daily crisis.

I could just be remembering things through the lens of 20 years, but it seemed like when the NFL had a strong commissioner who knew what he was doing, he ran the show and the owners stayed in the background except for, like, CBA negotiations and that was it. I don't remember much of this type of garbage under Rozelle or Tagliabue. It's possible to argue that this has as much to do with the change in the type of people who own the teams as with who the commissioner is - but the NBA is basically the same situation. Their commissioner even has a background that is practically identical to Goodell's. It seems to me that the difference is that Silver is the kind of guy who can both deal with a problem and navigate a room full of powerful indivuduals and their expectations ... whereas Goodell is basically a yes-man who has avoided being fired because he happened to be there when a big TV deal was signed and a huge quasi-gambling side business (fantasy football) materialized out of almost nothing because of the internet.

It does beg the question of why the owners would keep around a guy like that. Can they not see how Goodell had a hand in creating the ongoing clusterfuck that they're in? Surely it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the financial success of the league is happening independently of, if not in spite of, the commissioner. I am reasonably certain that I could have been just as effective, if not more, as NFL commissioner by staying out of the way and watching big-butt Brazilian porn for 40 hours a week. Maybe even 50 if they paid me as much as him. OK, even if they didn't.

[Mojouw]

Maybe I just have a different notion of what "entitled" means. I would call "arrogant" a more fitting word for the personality problems you are talking about, and it does describe most of the owners dead-on. Like, arrogant means you are cocky based on a history of being the top dog. Entitled is when you think you're important but you're not.

"Entitled" has also just become such a go-to phrase for airing any grievance against anyone living more than a gritty middle-class existence, that it has mostly lost all meaning except as a toxic modifier employed to help steer a discussion toward an argument.

That aside, I think we're basically talking about the same thing - which is that the owners carrying over both the business strategies and personality issues from their previous occupations have left the league dysfunctional and aimless.

It's hard to say whether the NBA is doing a better job because of the nature of the commissioner's office or because of the man. No question that league is run much differently with the central office taking the lead role and the owners staying at 30,000 feet. But for that, the owners need a high level of faith that the commissioner can just handle shit for them. Clearly, the NFL owners don't have that same trust, and increasingly feel like they need to grab the wheel to get through the daily crisis.

I could just be remembering things through the lens of 20 years, but it seemed like when the NFL had a strong commissioner who knew what he was doing, he ran the show and the owners stayed in the background except for, like, CBA negotiations and that was it. I don't remember much of this type of garbage under Rozelle or Tagliabue. It's possible to argue that this has as much to do with the change in the type of people who own the teams as with who the commissioner is - but the NBA is basically the same situation. Their commissioner even has a background that is practically identical to Goodell's. It seems to me that the difference is that Silver is the kind of guy who can both deal with a problem and navigate a room full of powerful indivuduals and their expectations ... whereas Goodell is basically a yes-man who has avoided being fired because he happened to be there when a big TV deal was signed and a huge quasi-gambling side business (fantasy football) materialized out of almost nothing because of the internet.

It does beg the question of why the owners would keep around a guy like that. Can they not see how Goodell had a hand in creating the ongoing clusterfuck that they're in? Surely it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the financial success of the league is happening independently of, if not in spite of, the commissioner. I am reasonably certain that I could have been just as effective, if not more, as NFL commissioner by staying out of the way and watching big-butt Brazilian porn for 40 hours a week. Maybe even 50 if they paid me as much as him. OK, even if they didn't.

Agreed. No need to argue about this term or that.

Bottom line is that now that most of the old guard owners are gone or in their 3rd generation, it is becoming increasingly clear that the owners do not want a strong commissioner, player's union, or anything else that gets in their way of maximizing profits and shutting out bad press. Which, while may be exactly how to run a business, it may not be the best way to run a league.

[steelreserve]

Agreed. No need to argue about this term or that.

Bottom line is that now that most of the old guard owners are gone or in their 3rd generation, it is becoming increasingly clear that the owners do not want a strong commissioner, player's union, or anything else that gets in their way of maximizing profits and shutting out bad press. Which, while may be exactly how to run a business, it may not be the best way to run a league.

Yeah, they'd rather get in their own way, I guess.

What I don't understand is how all of these "new guard" owners can come in fresh off of running multibillion-dollar companies, which generally requires dedicating your entire attention to, to the point where it basically IS your life ... then after having experienced that, they go, "OK, I'm going to run another multibillion-dollar company with thousands of employees, but I can just kind of wing it as a side hustle in my spare time, because hey, sports! And I don't know very much about this new industry since I came in completely cold, but I won't give up any control to a dedicated person who understands it." I mean, that's not a way to run ANY business.

The problem of sports teams as a status symbol / hobby / investment. Very few people left who are running a pro sports team because they spent their whole lives on the game. And the hobbyists come in thinking the whole thing is basically going to run itself because the game is popular. I don't get it.

[EzraTank]

Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

By SAM QUINN

Artie Burns, like the rest of the Pittsburgh Steelers, made a very controversial decision before their Week 3 game against the Chicago Bears. The Steelers decided to sit out the National Anthem as a way to protest comments made by President Donald Trump. He remembers what followed: months of criticism, fans saying that they would give up the team, a whole lot of distractions that hindered the team's football performance. The decision that the Steelers made shined a light on them. It put a target on their back that made the center of the National Anthem debate whether they liked it or not.

And now, Burns believes the NFL is doing that to all of its players.

to read rest of article:

https://www.scout.com/Article/Artie-...licy-118495166

If Burns wants to help the black community there are thousands of better ways then hiding in a locker room or kneeling down.

[Fire Goodell]

Cleveland still sucks

[Hawkman]

Is there really no way to work this thread to the bottom of the board......see what I did there.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Art Rooney: Everyone wants the players to stand, including most players

Posted by Mike Florio on July 30, 2018

The NFL and NFL Players Association made progress on Friday, as they try to hammer out Anthem Policy 3.0. Steelers owner Art Rooney II possibly has provided a glimpse regarding what the new policy will entail.

“Of course everybody wants the players to be standing, including most of the players,” Rooney said in a weekend appearance on NFL Network, via SportsBusiness Daily. “At the end of last season, we were down to just a handful of players that were protesting at the anthem, so the vast majority of players want to be focused on football, don’t want to be getting into politics on the field. If everyone has that mindset, we can work something out.”

to read rest of article:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...-most-players/

[tom444]

this kind of skews the premise of the article does it not ?

note military fly over , note servicemen in the scene ... prior to when they claim it started ...seems this has been going on a long long time from my recollection but hey I am old sometimes memories get distorted but even the grainy video below shows it

for the record ray Charles as famous as he was never got his due IMO

That was a Super Bowl. The article notes that big games had put on that kind of display. His point was that it's become common practice for every game now post 9/11.

[steelreserve]

That was a Super Bowl. The article notes that big games had put on that kind of display. His point was that it's become common practice for every game now post 9/11.

It was common practice before that. I remember going to A's games, Giants games, 49ers games in the 1980s, and they would have planes fly over from the local Air Force base all the time, just for regular games. One time they had a C-5 cargo plane buzz the stadium (like seriously, it must have cleared the lights by 50 feet) and it was the coolest thing ever. Like, you could feel the damn thing rumbling in your chest bones, that's how loud it was. Every game they had a bunch of Marines bring out the flag and then they played the national anthem. In baseball at least, the players would all be out there standing on the base lines.

They have been doing the same thing for at least 30-40 years across multiple sports, probably longer than that. The idea that it is some new thing because of 9/11 or a recent "paid patriotism" campaign from the past decade is nonsense.

Basically, it's something that they always just had before games, and as far as I can tell it was just because it was the tradition, not because of some sinister military brainwashing purpose. You never heard about THAT until the past few years - in other words, until deriding it and delegitimizing it became beneficial to a certain political group. "What do you really have to complain about, it was never ______!" Big Brother and MiniTruth would revise history to fit their own ends too.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

This Dallas Sports reporter calls out Jerruh.....he's not lying.

[tom444]

It was common practice before that. I remember going to A's games, Giants games, 49ers games in the 1980s, and they would have planes fly over from the local Air Force base all the time, just for regular games. One time they had a C-5 cargo plane buzz the stadium (like seriously, it must have cleared the lights by 50 feet) and it was the coolest thing ever. Like, you could feel the damn thing rumbling in your chest bones, that's how loud it was. Every game they had a bunch of Marines bring out the flag and then they played the national anthem. In baseball at least, the players would all be out there standing on the base lines.

They have been doing the same thing for at least 30-40 years across multiple sports, probably longer than that. The idea that it is some new thing because of 9/11 or a recent "paid patriotism" campaign from the past decade is nonsense.

Basically, it's something that they always just had before games, and as far as I can tell it was just because it was the tradition, not because of some sinister military brainwashing purpose. You never heard about THAT until the past few years - in other words, until deriding it and delegitimizing it became beneficial to a certain political group. "What do you really have to complain about, it was never ______!" Big Brother and MiniTruth would revise history to fit their own ends too.

No, it was ratcheted up after 9/11, and for good reason. The military needed bodies. They were fighting non stop for years in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. Those displays before games aren't by accident, or for patriotic reasons. The DOD pays NFL teams to put on those displays to attract volunteers. It's a big advertisement.

[Dwinsgames]

[steelreserve]

No, it was ratcheted up after 9/11, and for good reason. The military needed bodies. They were fighting non stop for years in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. Those displays before games aren't by accident, or for patriotic reasons. The DOD pays NFL teams to put on those displays to attract volunteers. It's a big advertisement.

That would make sense, except that the total number of active military personnel has remained the same since the mid-1990s (when it went down by about a third due to overall downsizing/base closures). It's very simple to look this stuff up.

In any case, what's wrong with the military advertising to get recruits? Everyone else advertises when they're trying to hire people. Is there something inherently bad about the army?

My original point, though, was that they have been playing the national anthem at sporting events way, way, WAY before any of this, and that is not really even debatable. Having some kind of patriotic or military thing along with it is not new either. Whether they "ratcheted it up" has very little to do with anything. It is just something that people use to complain about, an excuse to belittle the other side. "omg look, they're all so dumb that they're just falling for an advertisement!!!! They have no point and if they are upset it's invalid!!!" Except that I can pretty much guarantee that's not the reasoning or the thought process behind it at all.

You want to talk about people whose opinions come from being easily manipulated, there is a whole political party whose strategy is essentially based around that, but I digress.