Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

[steelreserve]

It’s a Catch-22.

If a person is is not allowed to protest (kneel for the Anthem, burn a flag) without repercussion, then that person lives in a country that is not actually free.

But, if that person is free enough to protest (kneel for the Anthem, burn a flag) without repercussion, then that person lives in a country that is indeed free.


So... the person who is free enough to protest about their freedom is actually proving how free they truly are.


Stopping the protestor from displaying their freedom, actually proves their point (they are in fact “not free”).

Whereas, allowing the protestor to display their freedom, actually disproves their point (they are in fact very free).

SUMMATION:
It’s a circular logic problem, akin to saying “This statement is false”

No offense, but that's a pretty bullshit argument.

For one thing, the NFL players aren't protesting about a lack of freedom, they're ostensibly protesting the behavior of the police (although some seem to have taken that a step further into race issues in general). Ironically, they're making their point by protesting a symbol of the freedom that allows them to protest. Not a real strong start by Kap & crew in the logic department, but that's not really the point either.

Freedom of expression means that you are free to express your opinion without the government stopping you or coming after you. That's all. It does not mean others are compelled to lend you their own forum to express your beliefs, which is really what this is about.

If someone else put a Trump bumper sticker on my car, I'd be free to take it off. If I call up the newspaper and tell them they need to do a story on ... let's say, chemtrail conspiracy theories ... they can decide whether it's in their best interest to run the story or not. They don't have to. Hell, if I come to this forum constantly extolling my opinion that the Patriots are the best team in the history of pro sports, the site owners are free to tell me to shut up or GTFO. It's not infringing on my freedom; the government isn't suppressing me. Someone else just decided their audience doesn't want to hear it and I need to go find my own way to spread my message.

Same idea here. Players want to use the NFL's TV platform for their own personal views, and it's pretty well-established they're not guaranteed the right to do that. You put a decal on your helmet, or wear a headband with your message on it, they can tell you to take it off for violating the uniform policy. You go on America's Got Talent and launch into an anti-abortion tirade instead of singing or dancing, and they'll kick you off the stage.

Hell, if I decided to put a Black Lives Matter banner at the top of all the pages on our company website, and the owner said "I don't want that on the site, focus on promoting the products," and I argued with him about free speech and how important the issue is to me personally, guess who wins that argument? Now, the one thing I agree with 100% is that the NFL completely bungled the handling of that; I mean they have 30+ years of precedent in their own league of controlling very tightly what is an acceptable way of conveying your personal beliefs on the field (mostly: don't do it). But button-mashing Roger just sort of follows every media trend like a guy chasing a bus, so that's how we got here.

One final note - I find it really ironic that a lot of the people complaining about the players' right to express themselves on the job are the same liberals who have a well-deserved reputation for trying to get people fired from their jobs, kicked out of school, blacklisted from any prominent position, etc., for things they do on their own time. I mean, these are the same people who go around doxxing people over Twitter comments, calling people's employers demanding they be fired - real petty, below-the-belt shit like that. There is a fundamental lesson in that from which they would benefit, although they probably don't even see it.

[Mojouw]

Say I sold widgets. In this alternate MOJOUW Widget seller universe, I also have data that the majority of widget purchasers are really really hardcore Marxist-Leninist style Communists. Like the more Lenin the better kinda folks. They aren't violent or fomenting rebellion inside the United States, just really dedicated to the Communist Party as a political movement and only purchase widgets (a billion dollar a year industry in the US) from overtly Communist companies. So I require that each of my employees stand and observe a moment of silence for Lenin each day then listen as a selection from the Communist manifesto is read aloud. Most of my employees are fine with this and couldn't care less, they use they time to get centered and focused for a hard day of widget manufacturing and largely ignore the content of the ritual. A few employees totally disagree with what I am doing and are against the content of the morning pre-work exercise. They ask me to sit silently and read while the morning pre-work routine is taking place as it conflicts with their personal beliefs. They promise that they will be the best widget workers during the work period, just want to opt out before that happens. I fire them all. Am I right?

[tube517]

Since when did the NFL players even have to come out to the anthem for regular season games?

I mean this whole episode could have been avoided if they didn't come out until after the anthem like it had been forever in the past.

I get the Super Bowl and the Conference Championship games but I don't even recall when this all started. Usually when watching, we get the 2 bozo announcers onscreen with their pregame "analysis" and the anthem is nowhere to be seen or heard.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I've served in the military and quite honestly, as a veteran, I could give a crap about who stands for the flag. It's their choice, and we fought for people's freedom to choose. If anything, forcing people to stand is taking away a choice which doesn't seem very American to me.

This is such a great perspective from a former member of the Military !! It sounds very much like what Nate Boyer said as well. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Thank you for your service.

I wonder why all the fuss about suppressing somebody's freedom with regards to the anthem, yet their freedom from police brutality is mostly an afterthought?

Here is NBA player Sterling Brown. He stands for the National Anthem, he had 5 cops wrestle him to the ground, taser him and leave marks on his face. I bet more people would react to his taking a knee during the anthem at an NBA game than have reacted to the video of him being tased outside a Walgreens in Milwaukee.

[Mojouw]

Since when did the NFL players even have to come out to the anthem for regular season games?

I mean this whole episode could have been avoided if they didn't come out until after the anthem like it had been forever in the past.

I get the Super Bowl and the Conference Championship games but I don't even recall when this all started. Usually when watching, we get the 2 bozo announcers onscreen with their pregame "analysis" and the anthem is nowhere to be seen or heard.

It started when the NFL got hundreds of millions of dollars from the US government for anthem displays pre-game.

- - - Updated - - -

This is such a great perspective from a former member of the Military !! It sounds very much like what Nate Boyer said as well. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Thank you for your service.

I wonder why all the fuss about suppressing somebody's freedom with regards to the anthem, yet their freedom from police brutality is mostly an afterthought?

Here is NBA player Sterling Brown. He stands for the National Anthem, he had 5 cops wrestle him to the ground, taser him and leave marks on his face. I bet more people would react to his taking a knee during the anthem at an NBA game than have reacted to the video of him being tased outside a Walgreens in Milwaukee.

Exactly.

It is not only the violence and potential deadly consequences, but the general suspicion that people of color face in some parts of the country. Like the woman who got the cops called on her for BBQ'ing in a public park. Or the black guy who got the cops called on him for walking his baby in a public park. Or the Hispanic worker who had a white woman pull a gun on him and call the cops for turning around on her street. These are all in the last month.

As to the anthem stuff, bread and circuses man.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Say I sold widgets. In this alternate MOJOUW Widget seller universe, I also have data that the majority of widget purchasers are really really hardcore Marxist-Leninist style Communists. Like the more Lenin the better kinda folks. They aren't violent or fomenting rebellion inside the United States, just really dedicated to the Communist Party as a political movement and only purchase widgets (a billion dollar a year industry in the US) from overtly Communist companies. So I require that each of my employees stand and observe a moment of silence for Lenin each day then listen as a selection from the Communist manifesto is read aloud. Most of my employees are fine with this and couldn't care less, they use they time to get centered and focused for a hard day of widget manufacturing and largely ignore the content of the ritual. A few employees totally disagree with what I am doing and are against the content of the morning pre-work exercise. They ask me to sit silently and read while the morning pre-work routine is taking place as it conflicts with their personal beliefs. They promise that they will be the best widget workers during the work period, just want to opt out before that happens. I fire them all. Am I right?

Are certain NFL players taking a knee or rasing a fist over widgets or Marxist ideals?

I thought that it was that certain players in the NFL were taking a knee to use their status to bring attention to how minorities in America have been abused or even killed by police, when they were in situations where they didn't pose a threat? Some would call it racial inequality of how police treat minorities.

Here is dash cam footage of the Police killing of Philando Castille in Minneapolis. https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/0...-video-ctn.cnn His girlfriend streamed the incident on Facebook live a the time and he was shot while getting his drivers license for the officer. The officer that shot him point blank on the side of the road was acquitted.

[Mojouw]

Are certain NFL players taking a knee or rasing a fist over widgets or Marxist ideals?

I thought that it was that certain players in the NFL were taking a knee to use their status to bring attention to how minorities in America have been abused or even killed by police, when they were in situations where they didn't pose a threat? Some would call it racial inequality of how police treat minorities.

Here is dash cam footage of the Police killing of Philando Castille in Minneapolis. https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2017/0...-video-ctn.cnn His girlfriend streamed the incident on Facebook live a the time and he was shot while getting his drivers license for the officer. The officer that shot him point blank on the side of the road was acquitted.

I realize that and totally agree with the point I believe you are making. I was simply trying to construct a poor analogy to take the variables out of the context of race and the American flag - two issues that a lot of people for very understandable reasons have a hard time being dispassionate about.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

It started whe
It is not only the violence and potential deadly consequences, but the general suspicion that people of color face in some parts of the country. Like the woman who got the cops called on her for BBQ'ing in a public park. Or the black guy who got the cops called on him for walking his baby in a public park. Or the Hispanic worker who had a white woman pull a gun on him and call the cops for turning around on her street. These are all in the last month.

As to the anthem stuff, bread and circuses man.

Very true and the examples you reference validate your point and are very real.

The NFL is approx. comprised of 70% black players. It is a multi billion dollar industry in which they are the actual workers. If they want to use their fame and status to bring attention to the issue that people of color are of suspicion of being criminals and being physically abused, killed and their rights violated, I don't see what is wrong with that.

As posters here have said, they have served in the military and preserved the freedom of NFL players and others to do what they want. If Chris Long, Malcom Jenkins, Eric Reid want to take a knee to bring attention and bring about positive change, it is their right to free speech and free thought. IMO, it should not be censored like it is in countries such as North Korea.

[steelreserve]

Say I sold widgets. In this alternate MOJOUW Widget seller universe, I also have data that the majority of widget purchasers are really really hardcore Marxist-Leninist style Communists. Like the more Lenin the better kinda folks. They aren't violent or fomenting rebellion inside the United States, just really dedicated to the Communist Party as a political movement and only purchase widgets (a billion dollar a year industry in the US) from overtly Communist companies. So I require that each of my employees stand and observe a moment of silence for Lenin each day then listen as a selection from the Communist manifesto is read aloud. Most of my employees are fine with this and couldn't care less, they use they time to get centered and focused for a hard day of widget manufacturing and largely ignore the content of the ritual. A few employees totally disagree with what I am doing and are against the content of the morning pre-work exercise. They ask me to sit silently and read while the morning pre-work routine is taking place as it conflicts with their personal beliefs. They promise that they will be the best widget workers during the work period, just want to opt out before that happens. I fire them all. Am I right?

Yeah, you own a private company, you can have whatever policy you want as long as you're not making them do something illegal. No one's forcing them to work there. Hell, you could have a policy that your employees all salute Osama bin Laden at the start of the day and answer the phone, "This is Mojouw's Widgets - HAIL SATAN!" I don't think many people would want to work there (or shop there), but it's up to you. If you told people they couldn't sit out the bin Laden salute or they'd be fired, that might make you a bit of a dick, but still within your right.

I mean, on a less extreme note, I've been to a catholic school that required you to take a certain number of classes on religion (I'm not religious); I rented a room from a house full of vegetarians who put in the ad that they did not want anyone eating meat in the house; and there are plenty of examples of that kind of thing in business and elsewhere. Plenty of religious-oriented businesses, for one, where you're expected to follow their rules. There are companies that ban iPhones, for that matter.

If it's a voluntary association by your own choice, freedom of expression doesn't apply, because you chose to be there and you are also free to choose not to be there (and express yourself however you want). That's your freedom of expression.

Now, you couldn't do that if you were in charge of, say, the city's Public Works department, which is the only part of that where freedom of expression comes into it.

Funny thing about all this - until the Kaepernick nonsense, there was no real reason to have any opinion about the national anthem. Nobody called it "forced patriotism" or "paid military advertising" or whatever; and I doubt any of the players were incensed that they were expected to come out and stand there. It's just some benign tradition that people did at the start of sporting events for decades, I mean even at like, the high school level, where there's no money changing hands, and no causes, and no ulterior motives, and no greater meaning except for having a basketball game or something. Yet somehow they found a way to ruin even THAT with politics. That may be the most distasteful thing about it. Kind of like the idiot who sued over "In God We Trust" being on the money. WHO CARES!!! That's the way the whole thing comes off, just saying. (edit: I mean the sudden outrage over the national anthem as a "propaganda tool" or whatever comes off that way, not the underlying cause that the players are protesting, which is a separate matter.)

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I realize that and totally agree with the point I believe you are making. I was simply trying to construct a poor analogy to take the variables out of the context of race and the American flag - two issues that a lot of people for very understandable reasons have a hard time being dispassionate about.

Thanks, but I just found it to be confusing and deflecting of the real reasons the kneeling started.

Yes, people have a hard time being dispassionate about race and the American flag, but lets just face the reality. There has been a history of racism in America for generations, it started with the bringing of slaves to the country and the owning of slaves for multiple generations. Those attitudes don't just go away or get shut off, as in some cases they have been passed along for generations. Where there is push, there is also pushback....so the attitudes of people from those generations of racial differences and some police policies seem to profile minorities and some minorities push back against those actions.

I personally applaud the efforts of guys like Chris Long, Eric Reid and Malcom Jenkins for their taking a stance and moving to bring issues to the forefront. Have to admit there is a problem before you can solve it. If their best platform to bring the issue to the light is taking a knee before the Anthem and it is truly a free society, then I think it has been a good strategy.

I think its unfortunate that the NFL is trying to bring censorship to the topic. They should get out in front of it and have a month like they do for breast cancer awareness. Make the color blue and call it something like Community And Police Partnership for Society (CAPS). Be part of the solution to the concerns. Everybody will stand for the anthem again and hopefully it will foster positive change.

[steelreserve]

I think its unfortunate that the NFL is trying to bring censorship to the topic. They should get out in front of it and have a month like they do for breast cancer awareness. Make the color blue and call it something like Community And Police Partnership for Society (CAPS). Be part of the solution to the concerns. Everybody will stand for the anthem again and hopefully it will foster positive change.

That would probably be a better idea, but tbh by now so many people have their minds made up and their heels dug in, that I don't think there's anything the league can do without it bringing on an avalanche of more negativity.

They tell the players to knock it off, and the fans on one side (correctly or incorrectly) scream censorship.

They do what you said, and fans on the other side scream that they caved in to the kneelers and they won't support a league that does that. Then fans who supported the protest are still angry, say "they're just paying lip service" and want the kneeling back.

Politics generates nothing but negativity, that's the real problem. People don't want that in sports and entertainment. The only thing you can do is shove it out at the first sign it's trying to worm its way in, but the NFL is trying to shut the barn door after the cows got out ages ago. A consequence of having a buffoon for a commissioner. Pete Rozelle, for instance, probably would not have let things progress to this point.

[Mojouw]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.71722b24dd89

Interesting take-aways:

Speech is protected for public-sector employees by federal statute but not for private-sector employees.
Speech is protected in the private-sector if negative consequences are enacted by the employer on the employee in response to government pressure.
Private-sector employers are bound by state statutes. This would be a nightmare for the NFL. Potentially means multiple different legal outcomes if they started fining or firing players.
Most of this is "off-the-job" type scenarios. Wonder how the players and teams would define "on the job" for the NFL? What about a court?

I dunno man, for a league run by a bunch of lawyers, they seem to keep opening up new problems for themselves!

[Dwinsgames]

I am pretty steadfast here ....

You live and work in a land that empowers you to play a childs game for millions of dollars per year , is it to much to ask that you stand for 3 mins and respect that nation while at your work place and the people who have died or lost limbs protecting your freedoms and ability to play a game for a job and live like a king because of such employment ...

you are being PAID to be there the stadium is your work place ....

want to protest fine by all means do it , but do it on your time ...

how many of these guys that Take a knee on Sunday are seen on Tuesday forming a march or picketing with a sign for this ever changing cause that now has several different line of reasoning for ...

[Mach1]

If someone wants to protest great fine dandy, do it on your own time and not my dime. Your there to "work" that's what you getting paid for. I could give a rats ass if you stand, kneel or play dead do it on your time.

[DesertSteel]

Remember “flag burning”?

Same discussion... 30 years later.

How about we just go back to burning disco records before the game?!

[teegre]

Funny huh? For some the flag is a symbol of freedom, but they are being penalized for freedom of expression. Sounds like hypocrisy.

...and what are they actually expressing? Is it that the racial inequality that is part of the history books of America, is still present today to a lesser, but still unjust extent? Is it that police are more apt to react with violence to a black man in a hoodie, than a white man in a hoodie?

Exactly,

And what is being lost in all of this is the real topic: violence towards minorities. Somehow the discussion is solely about “kneel or stand”.

[teegre]

I've served in the military and quite honestly, as a veteran, I could give a crap about who stands for the flag. It's their choice, and we fought for people's freedom to choose. If anything, forcing people to stand is taking away a choice which doesn't seem very American to me.

This!!!!!

I was on Camp Pendleton for 18 years, and the sentiment that I heard most often (about flag burning... which relates to this topic) was that “We risk our lives so that people may have the freedom to make their own choices.”

[Craic]

Aaaand this is why unions exist. To prevent unchecked authoritarianism. Players union was given zero say in this matter. Why does it even exist if thats the case?

LMAO. If someone wants control in a business, go start one. Otherwise, shut up and do the work. This isn't the 1800s anymore.

[teegre]

For one thing, the NFL players aren't protesting about a lack of freedom, they're ostensibly protesting the behavior of the police (although some seem to have taken that a step further into race issues in general). Ironically, they're making their point by protesting a symbol of the freedom that allows them to protest.

That’s exactly my point. That symbol allows them to protest. If they aren’t allowed to protest, then that “violation” is actually worse than the protest itself (because, it is in direct disagreement with the very definition of freedom).

Lastly, you are right: the real issue is about cops/race. Alas, the protest itself (kneel vs. stand) is what has become the focal point.

[teegre]

how many of these guys that Take a knee on Sunday are seen on Tuesday forming a march or picketing with a sign for this ever changing cause that now has several different line of reasoning for ...

Two things.

1) Since the NFL players have access to a spotlight, they are certainly going to use it to point out a problem that they see. If they knelt on a Tuesday, no one would notice... and the issue would not be discussed. If Joe Scmoe kneels on Sunday’s, no one would notice. By these superstars using that spotlight, they are bringing awareness to a topic that would/has gone unnoticed for a long time. (Make sense?)

2) I don’t think many of them cared much... until they were told (before Game 3) that they HAD to stand. Then, the sh!t hit the fan. Their attitude became “DON’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!” And, just when the “kneeling issue” was about to die... just when we had all sort of forgotten about it... Goodell goes and throws gasoline on the embers.

[Mojouw]

So protest is only okay if you agree with it and it takes place in setting and context that doesn't offend anyone? Or at the very least people can easily ignore?

I mean that defeats the whole purpose.

I encounter behaviors, actions, opinions, messages, signs, advertisements, and what have you every day that I either disagree with or find offensive - sometimes both. But that is the cost of doing business in a free and open society. If I want to be able to do what I want, when I want, and how I want -- I have to accept that others doing the exact same thing are going to do a ton of stuff that pisses me off.

[Mach1]

So protest is only okay if you agree with it and it takes place in setting and context that doesn't offend anyone? Or at the very least people can easily ignore?

I mean that defeats the whole purpose.

I encounter behaviors, actions, opinions, messages, signs, advertisements, and what have you every day that I either disagree with or find offensive - sometimes both. But that is the cost of doing business in a free and open society. If I want to be able to do what I want, when I want, and how I want -- I have to accept that others doing the exact same thing are going to do a ton of stuff that pisses me off.

Putting on my business owner cap on for a sec.

[steelreserve]

That’s exactly my point. That symbol allows them to protest. If they aren’t allowed to protest, then that “violation” is actually worse than the protest itself (because, it is in direct disagreement with the very definition of freedom).

Lastly, you are right: the real issue is about cops/race. Alas, the protest itself (kneel vs. stand) is what has become the focal point.

Well, the reason the kneeling issue has become the focal point is because there are two parts to it, one of which relates to the NFL and one of which does not.

Is excessive force by police a legitimate topic to protest? Sure, and I don't think many people would disagree that you have the right to do it, whether or not they agree with the protest itself.

Is an NFL game an appropriate place to carry out that protest? Very many people disagree with that.

I don't think anyone is saying "don't express your opinions at all," rather, "if you bring your opinions HERE, I am not going to support that."

All that happened is the free market had its say. If this had been going on and revenue and TV viewership kept hitting new records, I don't think the owners would've done a thing. Why would they? If you're making a billion dollars with no end in sight, you leave well enough alone.

The outcome is the result of one group exercising its freedom of speech, and another group exercising its own freedom in response to it. And a third group (the league) exercising its freedom to operate in what it perceives as its own best interest.

Three groups exercising their own personal freedoms. The government not involved at all, except for some weird partisan cheerleading as if people are still campaigning. You could not possibly have more freedom involved in the process. Yet some will still insist it's a jackbooted authoritarian stomping of people's rights. Unbelievable, when you actually think about it.

[Mojouw]

Putting on my business owner cap on for a sec.

Well, that wasn't what I was talking about at all. But, sure, we can go with that.

[Dwinsgames]

Two things.

1) Since the NFL players have access to a spotlight, they are certainly going to use it to point out a problem that they see. If they knelt on a Tuesday, no one would notice... and the issue would not be discussed. If Joe Scmoe kneels on Sunday’s, no one would notice. By these superstars using that spotlight, they are bringing awareness to a topic that would/has gone unnoticed for a long time. (Make sense?)

2) I don’t think many of them cared much... until they were told (before Game 3) that they HAD to stand. Then, the sh!t hit the fan. Their attitude became “DON’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!” And, just when the “kneeling issue” was about to die... just when we had all sort of forgotten about it... Goodell goes and throws gasoline on the embers.

but they are in the work place so ... #dowork

that spotlight they have is to do their jobs and play football , trying to make it into something other than football is not doing their job and is taking the focus off of why they supposedly are there to begin with ...

all I can say is they are damned lucky I do not own a team , I would tell them do your damned job while on my dime and part of that Job is to represent this football team to the highest level and you will do that standing during the anthem ... if you don't like it don't come to work and consequently you will not be paid .... sit/kneel and you will sit during the game and the very next week you will be suspended for conduct detrimental to the football team ( and not paid )

football is a game you are being paid very well for to play ...

it would take me 247 years to make what Lev Bell wants to play 1 season ...spend some of that moldy money to support this cause you feel so greatly about that you will disrespect those who fought and died for by taking a knee ...

oh this just gets my damned goat I could punch every one of them that take a knee

[Dwinsgames]

[AtlantaDan]

Well, the reason the kneeling issue has become the focal point is because there are two parts to it, one of which relates to the NFL and one of which does not.

Is excessive force by police a legitimate topic to protest? Sure, and I don't think many people would disagree that you have the right to do it, whether or not they agree with the protest itself.

Is an NFL game an appropriate place to carry out that protest? Very many people disagree with that.

I don't think anyone is saying "don't express your opinions at all," rather, "if you bring your opinions HERE, I am not going to support that."

All that happened is the free market had its say. If this had been going on and revenue and TV viewership kept hitting new records, I don't think the owners would've done a thing. Why would they? If you're making a billion dollars with no end in sight, you leave well enough alone.

The outcome is the result of one group exercising its freedom of speech, and another group exercising its own freedom in response to it. And a third group (the league) exercising its freedom to operate in what it perceives as its own best interest.

Three groups exercising their own personal freedoms. The government not involved at all, except for some weird partisan cheerleading as if people are still campaigning. You could not possibly have more freedom involved in the process. Yet some will still insist it's a jackbooted authoritarian stomping of people's rights. Unbelievable, when you actually think about it.

The government is not involved at all except for the fact this was dying down at the start of last season until a certain member of the government decided to throw red meat to the crowd at a campaign rally in Alabama and has continued to stir the pot through such observations as one this week that any player who is a U.S. citizen but does not stand for the anthem maybe shouldn't be in the country. If that person was not a fairly important member of the government IMO the owners would be ignoring him and perhaps suggesting he STFU. So the power of a government official is a big part of this.

I am grimly amused that a crew of bullies like the NFL owners and Goodell are cowering because they have run into a bigger bully over this.

[Dwinsgames]

The government is not involved at all except for the fact this was dying down at the start of last season until a certain member of the government decided to throw red meat to the crowd at a campaign rally in Alabama and has continued to stir the pot through such observations as one this week that any player who is a U.S. citizen but does not stand for the anthem maybe shouldn't be in the country. If that person was not a fairly important member of the government IMO the owners would be ignoring him and perhaps suggesting he STFU. So the power of a government official is a big part of this.

I am grimly amused that a crew of bullies like the NFL owners and Goodell are cowering because they have run into a bigger bully over this.

maybe he is right ?

[steelreserve]

The government is not involved at all except for the fact this was dying down at the start of last season until a certain member of the government decided to throw red meat to the crowd at a campaign rally in Alabama and has continued to stir the pot through such observations as one this week that any player who is a U.S. citizen but does not stand for the anthem maybe shouldn't be in the country. If that person was not a fairly important member of the government IMO the owners would be ignoring him and perhaps suggesting he STFU. So the power of a government official is a big part of this.

I am grimly amused that a crew of bullies like the NFL owners and Goodell are cowering because they have run into a bigger bully over this.

I don't know what to tell you, except that if you think the NFL owners are taking orders from Donald Trump, you're almost certainly mistaken. Those guys all have egos just as big as his, and know full well he can't make them do anything.

If anything, Trump gets all the activists fired up every time he opens his big mouth, then the media gets fired up (same people, really), then the issue gets turned over again, then more people join the protest basically just to spite Trump. So in a way, maybe he forces the issue by ensuring it keeps being brought up over and over. I don't know if that's randomly or on purpose; the latter would take a kind of savvy that I don't know if he has.

Yeah, it really would help if the guy would keep his mouth shut. What power does the government really have over it, though? None at all.

[pczach]

It’s a Catch-22.

If a person is is not allowed to protest (kneel for the Anthem, burn a flag) without repercussion, then that person lives in a country that is not actually free.

But, if that person is free enough to protest (kneel for the Anthem, burn a flag) without repercussion, then that person lives in a country that is indeed free.


So... the person who is free enough to protest about their freedom is actually proving how free they truly are.


Stopping the protestor from displaying their freedom, actually proves their point (they are in fact “not free”).

Whereas, allowing the protestor to display their freedom, actually disproves their point (they are in fact very free).

SUMMATION:
It’s a circular logic problem, akin to saying “This statement is false”

The problem is teeg that if those same people are free to make that statement, it is their owner that ultimately pays the penalty of that action in the form of income loss. Once that happens, the owner has the right to demand that those actions don't take place. You can't do whatever you want to do on the work floor. Sorry, but that is a fact.

If the players were a privately owned entity, they could do whatever they want. As long as they work for someone else, they must conduct themselves in a way that is acceptable to the owner.

We live in a free country but you can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater.

People that don't own the company cannot do or say whatever they feel like saying at the expense of the very company they are representing and are getting paid by.

In their own time, any of these players can go on radio, go on TV, make Facebook and Twitter statements, or any form of media they desire. If that is what they desire to do. However, every other free individual in this country can tell them they're full of shit, they disagree, they're offended, etc... They can even decide to not buy their jersey, or decide to not support the team they play for anymore. That's real freedom at work.

The players want to be able to say whatever they want with no ramifications. Life and freedom do not work that way.