3 FA Linebackers Worth Considering?

[GBMelBlount]

Bowman supposedly was disgruntled with the coaching staff about being rotated in and out of a game: https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/4/...-agent-meaning

Still sounds like he played well. Im strongly in favor of making it happen if we can keep his cap hit relatively low on a prove-it deal

Sounds like Bowman might cost about $6 mil.

Steelers should pursue NaVorro Bowman after Raiders move on

NaVorro Bowman should not be available right now. It is that simple. The former All-Pro linebacker should have returned to the Oakland Raiders earlier in the offseason on a deal that made sense for both sides. But as neither could agree to a dollar figure, the Raiders moved on Friday by signing an even older linebacker, Derrick Johnson, to replace him. The NFL Draft has passed. Most teams have filled their linebacker depth charts. Bowman is dangerously at risk of winding up without a team when training camp kicks off in July.

There is one team that still needs help at inside linebacker, and that team is a perfect fit for Bowman.

The Pittsburgh Steelers desperately needed inside linebacker help in the Draft, but elected to focus on offense and the secondary with their selections.

Their first-round choice of Terrell Edmunds, a safety out of Virginia Tech with the athleticism and body to play linebacker in sub-packages, might help fix the position, but it won't do so alone.

Edmunds is a linebacker for specific kinds of plays. He is not a three-down player at that position. He may go a long way in replacing the athleticism of injured linebacker Ryan Shazer, but Shazier brought far more to the table than that.

(Continued)

https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh...e-on-117972602

[Mojouw]

I'm not sure the article even makes sense. Here is a quote:

"Beyond that, he has the cache that the Steelers are missing in that position group. The Steelers had a superstar and lost him. Bowman isn't one anymore, but he has been in the past. He will command respect with the young players and fear in opponents. Bowman has to be taken seriously."

So a guy used to be really really good. Now he is kinda good. Everyone will respect the heck out of him for things he used to be able to do but doesn't anymore. Huh?

Another nugget of wisdom: "Bowman is no longer an elite coverage linebacker, which the Steelers would love without Shazier. But he is still dominant against the run. If the Steelers really believe that Edmunds can play linebacker on third downs, then that weakness of Bowman's is mitigated. He fills the early down need at linebacker while Edmunds and his incredibly athleticism fills the passing downs need. In the aggregate, they form one all-around linebacker to replace Shazier."

So the article author wants to pay Bowman $6 million per year to stop the run on 2 downs? That's about 3 times the amount they pay VW to do that job. Any salary north of 4 million or so would make Bowman the 3rd or 4th highest paid guy on the entire defense. To play 2 run stop downs a series? I mean, I guess...but that just seems to fail to take into account about a half dozen or so different realities of salary cap era roster construction.

[GBMelBlount]

I'm not sure the article even makes sense. Here is a quote:

"Beyond that, he has the cache that the Steelers are missing in that position group. The Steelers had a superstar and lost him. Bowman isn't one anymore, but he has been in the past. He will command respect with the young players and fear in opponents. Bowman has to be taken seriously."

So a guy used to be really really good. Now he is kinda good. Everyone will respect the heck out of him for things he used to be able to do but doesn't anymore. Huh?

Another nugget of wisdom: "Bowman is no longer an elite coverage linebacker, which the Steelers would love without Shazier. But he is still dominant against the run. If the Steelers really believe that Edmunds can play linebacker on third downs, then that weakness of Bowman's is mitigated. He fills the early down need at linebacker while Edmunds and his incredibly athleticism fills the passing downs need. In the aggregate, they form one all-around linebacker to replace Shazier."

So the article author wants to pay Bowman $6 million per year to stop the run on 2 downs? That's about 3 times the amount they pay VW to do that job.

Any salary north of 4 million or so would make Bowman the 3rd or 4th highest paid guy on the entire defense. To play 2 run stop downs a series?

I mean, I guess...but that just seems to fail to take into account about a half dozen or so different realities of salary cap era roster construction.

Great points.

Is a 2 down run stopper on defense a good reason for so many to think the sky is falling on defense?

It looks like there is speculation 5 mil might be the number for a 1 year deal with Bowman.

https://stillcurtain.com/2018/05/07/...de-linebacker/

[steelreserve]

If the reason he's not with the Raiders is because of money, he's probably too expensive for us as well ...

[Mojouw]

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...ks-news-update

Yeah this article makes it look like there isn't any cash left to spend regardless of whether or not Bowman wanted to play here and the staff wanted him.

[hawaiiansteeler]

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...ks-news-update

Yeah this article makes it look like there isn't any cash left to spend regardless of whether or not Bowman wanted to play here and the staff wanted him.

we could always restructure and extend Ben's contract by another 3 years

[FrancoLambert]

Great points.

Is a 2 down run stopper on defense a good reason for so many to think the sky is falling on defense?

It looks like there is speculation 5 mil might be the number for a 1 year deal with Bowman.

https://stillcurtain.com/2018/05/07/...de-linebacker/

A 2 down run stopper sure would have helped in the Jaguars game.

We got gashed regularly up the middle. The ILB group is so weak, if Bowman upgrades it significantly, pay him the money we saved on Wilcox.

[GBMelBlount]

A 2 down run stopper sure would have helped in the Jaguars game.

We got gashed regularly up the middle. The ILB group is so weak, if Bowman upgrades it significantly, pay him the money we saved on Wilcox.

My thoughts as well, maybe even a little more?

Could this be the last piece to a championship?

[steelreserve]

we could always restructure and extend Ben's contract by another 3 years

Speaking of quarterbacks, I know a certain guy who's making $2 million for no good reason ...

Yeah, probably not enough to sign anyone else, but at least there's the $2 million cushion we're currently missing.

[Mojouw]

Again, I will ask a simple question. Does everyone just discount Bostic? He is an NFL player who claims to be an ILB. He was signed to the roster several weeks ago. They only start 2. One is VW. Presumably the other is Bostic. Why would Bowman or Timmons or any other vet with an eye towards another year or two of starting come here to be the 3rd ILB? Because the uniforms look cool?

All these guys (Bowman, Timmons, Vaccaro, Boston, Reid) are most likely to sit on the market through OTAs and the heat of August. Then teams will have injuries or FAs/draft picks will not pan out. Right at the end of camp and into the first portion of preseason may be when many of these guys finally get a deal. Allows them to miss all the nonsense vets hate and potentially maximize their ability to play a high # of snaps.

Of course this means that one of the dudes I mentioned will sign tomorrow. Because whenever I make a statement like the above I am always wrong!

[hawaiiansteeler]

Again, I will ask a simple question. Does everyone just discount Bostic?

I'll add Matakevich to that equation, if he hadn't gotten hurt last season he'd have been starting instead of Spence. with VW, Bostic and Matakevich we have three 2 down LBers already.

[steelreserve]

Again, I will ask a simple question. Does everyone just discount Bostic? He is an NFL player who claims to be an ILB. He was signed to the roster several weeks ago. They only start 2. One is VW. Presumably the other is Bostic. Why would Bowman or Timmons or any other vet with an eye towards another year or two of starting come here to be the 3rd ILB? Because the uniforms look cool?

All these guys (Bowman, Timmons, Vaccaro, Boston, Reid) are most likely to sit on the market through OTAs and the heat of August. Then teams will have injuries or FAs/draft picks will not pan out. Right at the end of camp and into the first portion of preseason may be when many of these guys finally get a deal. Allows them to miss all the nonsense vets hate and potentially maximize their ability to play a high # of snaps.

Of course this means that one of the dudes I mentioned will sign tomorrow. Because whenever I make a statement like the above I am always wrong!

I'm not super familiar with Bostic, but everything I've seen on him suggests that he's closer to the fundamental un-flashy VW type of linebacker than the dynamic playmaker who can cover tight ends and running backs, which is what we are still sorely lacking.

So I'm kind of worried that this year will go like the end of last year if he and VW have more overlapping than complementary skill sets.

Then again, I don't know what you can really do about it at this point except maybe sign the third guy on the list here. I just hope they have a plan for this, because if the plan is "use a guy in Shazier's role who's slower and less skilled," then that will work about as well as the "use Tyrone Carter in Troy Polamalu's role and don't change anything else and get burned all day" defense ... only for the whole season, and after having 10 months to prepare.

tl;dr version - I sure hope Bostic is a lot better than the random gossip suggests.

[BlackAndGold]

If they add an ILB to the roster, they may acquire one via trade.

[teegre]

So... what are the Eagles going to do with Mychal Kendricks? He was supposedly on the trade block during the draft, but he is still there (rotting in the doghouse). At this point, might they take next year’s R4 pick???

[pczach]

Again, I will ask a simple question. Does everyone just discount Bostic? He is an NFL player who claims to be an ILB. He was signed to the roster several weeks ago. They only start 2. One is VW. Presumably the other is Bostic. Why would Bowman or Timmons or any other vet with an eye towards another year or two of starting come here to be the 3rd ILB? Because the uniforms look cool?

All these guys (Bowman, Timmons, Vaccaro, Boston, Reid) are most likely to sit on the market through OTAs and the heat of August. Then teams will have injuries or FAs/draft picks will not pan out. Right at the end of camp and into the first portion of preseason may be when many of these guys finally get a deal. Allows them to miss all the nonsense vets hate and potentially maximize their ability to play a high # of snaps.

Of course this means that one of the dudes I mentioned will sign tomorrow. Because whenever I make a statement like the above I am always wrong!

Bostic is the ILB version of the 4th round quarterback that can never help the team.....


I actually think Bostic is going to be a good player here. He is not overly fast, but he is instinctive and he has some athleticism which means he plays fast. He has a better DL in front of him than he did in Indy to help him make plays. He is a big hitter and like VW shows a good ability to get to the quarterback on blitzes. I look at him as a slightly quicker and more athletic Vince Williams. I'm not going to say he's a world-beater, but I do think he's a hell of a lot better than anyone else we say play the position after Shazier went down last year.

[FrancoLambert]

I'll add Matakevich to that equation, if he hadn't gotten hurt last season he'd have been starting instead of Spence. with VW, Bostic and Matakevich we have three 2 down LBers already.

I'm certainly in the minority here, but I don't see Matakevich as anything more than a good special teams player.
From all accounts, a good kid, interesting seventh round pick story......but IMO a backup ILB at best.
If forced to play regularly....no improvement in stopping the run.
He makes a lot of tackles.....4-5 yards downfield.

[Mojouw]

I'm not super familiar with Bostic, but everything I've seen on him suggests that he's closer to the fundamental un-flashy VW type of linebacker than the dynamic playmaker who can cover tight ends and running backs, which is what we are still sorely lacking.

So I'm kind of worried that this year will go like the end of last year if he and VW have more overlapping than complementary skill sets.

Then again, I don't know what you can really do about it at this point except maybe sign the third guy on the list here. I just hope they have a plan for this, because if the plan is "use a guy in Shazier's role who's slower and less skilled," then that will work about as well as the "use Tyrone Carter in Troy Polamalu's role and don't change anything else and get burned all day" defense ... only for the whole season, and after having 10 months to prepare.

tl;dr version - I sure hope Bostic is a lot better than the random gossip suggests.

And that may very well be true. And that is all that Bowman is at this point in his career as well. Age and injury have sapped his ability to cover and he now would have an overlapping skill set with VW at 2-3 times the cost of Bostic.

So why all the Bowman love? Because he was super good 2 injuries and 5 years ago?

[st33lersguy]

Bostic is a backup level player, he's a depth player, not someone you want starting. I thought Bostic was a good signing for depth purposes as I assumed they would do more to address the position. He is not someone you want to add if you have don't plan on addressing the position further. You can't say theat their current LB corp is weak. Other than Vince Williams who is solid but not great and TJ Watt who showed promise year 1, there really is not another starting caliber LB on the team (inside and outside).

[GBMelBlount]

Bostic is a backup level player, he's a depth player, not someone you want starting. I thought Bostic was a good signing for depth purposes as I assumed they would do more to address the position. He is not someone you want to add if you have don't plan on addressing the position further. You can't say theat their current LB corp is weak. Other than Vince Williams who is solid but not great and TJ Watt who showed promise year 1, there really is not another starting caliber LB on the team (inside and outside).

Edmunds and Allen could be good linebackers and are tackling machines.

[steelreserve]

And that may very well be true. And that is all that Bowman is at this point in his career as well. Age and injury have sapped his ability to cover and he now would have an overlapping skill set with VW at 2-3 times the cost of Bostic.

So why all the Bowman love? Because he was super good 2 injuries and 5 years ago?

He's a "name" player and people remember him from when he was good. I'm not crazy about the idea either; don't see how it helps us unless we need depth, in which case just go sign Timmons for cheaper.

Speaking of Raiders ILBs, who's that asshole who played for them and the Ravens and keeps getting arrested, I think retired and un-retired at one point? Is he out of jail yet?

[tube517]

He's a "name" player and people remember him from when he was good. I'm not crazy about the idea either; don't see how it helps us unless we need depth, in which case just go sign Timmons for cheaper.

Speaking of Raiders ILBs, who's that asshole who played for them and the Ravens and keeps getting arrested, I think retired and un-retired at one point? Is he out of jail yet?

Rolondo McClain. He's done. Indefinite suspension.

[Born2Steel]

Whatever happens, I hope we don't bring in any player that might say things on social media or on the radio that make the tabloid headlines. Too many of those threads already and not enough real football threads any more. I like this thread. I don't have much to add but I come here daily to read up. Good conversation here.

[GBMelBlount]

Whatever happens, I hope we don't bring in any player that might say things on social media or on the radio that make the tabloid headlines.

Too many of those threads already and not enough real football threads any more.

I like this thread. I don't have much to add but I come here daily to read up. Good conversation here.

Well said and agreed. In fact I don't even read a lot of those threads.

I saw some video interviews of the first three drafted players this year and they all seem like good quality people.

I really think that character counts in the Steelers draft decision making process.

I also think this leads to a better team/locker room chemistry and can carry over onto the field as well.

When you like your teammates, you play that much harder for them too.

[steelreserve]

Well said and agreed. In fact I don't even read a lot of those threads.

I saw some video interviews of the first three drafted players this year and they all seem like good quality people.

I really think that character counts in the Steelers draft decision making process.

I also think this leads to a better team/locker room chemistry and can carry over onto the field as well.

When you like your teammates, you play that much harder for them too.

Also those kinds of players tend to get fewer weed suspensions that lead to them being traded or released, fewer games where they're ineffective or inactive because of attitude problems, etc.

It's probably no coincidence if we focused on this after all the recent activity with our weed-powered offense the last couple seasons.

[GBMelBlount]

Also those kinds of players tend to get fewer weed suspensions that lead to them being traded or released, fewer games where they're ineffective or inactive because of attitude problems, etc.

It's probably no coincidence if we focused on this after all the recent activity with our weed-powered offense the last couple seasons.

Yes, it seems like they are learning.

For instance THIS year they made it a point to consider tackling skills when drafting players on defense.

[BlackAndGold]

So... what are the Eagles going to do with Mychal Kendricks? He was supposedly on the trade block during the draft, but he is still there (rotting in the doghouse). At this point, might they take next year’s R4 pick???

You know I'd be for it. May be a trade that could go down in the pre season.

[pczach]

So... what are the Eagles going to do with Mychal Kendricks? He was supposedly on the trade block during the draft, but he is still there (rotting in the doghouse). At this point, might they take next year’s R4 pick???

He fits the job description. This would be an interesting move if they could pull it off, and add more speed and athleticism to the position.

I was surprised that no team got this done during the draft.

Maybe it's still on the table and something they're working on?

[Mojouw]

He fits the job description. This would be an interesting move if they could pull it off, and add more speed and athleticism to the position.

I was surprised that no team got this done during the draft.

Maybe it's still on the table and something they're working on?

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/05...th-round-pick/

Article kinda buries the lede however. Basically Kendricks costs more than the Steelers have to spend right now. So they would need to get their hands on about $6 million in cap space. Despite the initial reporting that they have roughly that available, apparently when you dig into how the cap works, they are actually going to be OVER by 2 million or so.

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...ks-news-update

Assume they could find the cap $$ in the couch cushions at the facility, should they use that space and a draft pick on Kendricks?

They have similar testing #'s from their pre-draft workouts several years back:

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/jonathan-bostic
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/mychal-kendricks

Admittedly, Kendricks has better #'s and may be a bit more of a twitchy athlete. But neither are in shouting distance of Shazier. And they are within sight of one another. So an advantage to Kendricks, but not a massive one.

Looking at their production, based on tackle #'s they seem to be roughly similar at stopping the run. I didn't see stats on tackles for a loss, so I don't know if one racks up tackles 3 yards downfield while the other is getting them all at the LOS. Kendricks has far more starting experience and has frankly played more football than Bostic. Additionally, Kendricks based on INTS and passes defensed seems to be the better player in coverages.

The contract is where things get separation.

Bostic counts 1.5 and 2.5 million against the cap this year and next. Then he is off the books.
Kendricks would count 7.6 and 8.6 million against the cap this year and next. Then he would also be off the books.

So to make Kendricks work, you need to find almost 8 million in cap space this year and almost 9 million next year. Plus a draft pick. The pick isn't a big deal as they seem to trade one of those every off-season now to try and patch a hole. But the money is a problem. I think they could find the cap space if they wanted to. Either extend or restructure someone - potentially Kendricks himself after a trade (I believe they did this with Wilcox). However, there is always the problem that restructuring someone (say Haden because of the amount of his contract) causes its own set of problems!

The sheer amount is a problem. Traditionally, the Steelers have kept their salary structure slanted towards team leaders and building blocks. If Kendricks came over, he would be competing for a spot and instantly become the 3rd highest paid defensive player behind Heyward and Haden. Is that by definition a problem? No. Haden came in that way and they seemed willing to do it for Hightower. But it would be out of character for the team. Related to all that, is that say Kendricks wins the starting spot. Now you are paying 1.5 million for Bostic to sit on the bench.

Finally, something is going on with Kendricks in general. He has seemingly been on the trade block for 2-3 years. Either the Eagles really don't want to trade him and are just going through the motions to try and appease the player. Or Kendricks (@ least at his salary) is not really as good as fans think he is. I mean look at the Pats. Sideline to sideline speed and agility is totally absent in their linebacking corps. They arguably lost the SB because of it. They had all of the draft picks. Yet nothing happened. The Colts had a fistful of picks, but opted for Leonard at the top of the 2nd rather than prying Kendricks loose from the Eagles. All I am saying is that it is possible that NFL teams look at this guy and don't see the same thing we all do.

Long story short - do I think that Kendricks is better than the other ILBs on the roster? Yes. Do I think it is enough better to move off Bostic before he even plays a down, add significantly to the cap, and burn a draft pick? Maybe not. Would I be upset if they did it? Nope. Any roll of the dice to make your team better is a good one!

[steelreserve]

So to make Kendricks work, you need to find almost 8 million in cap space this year and almost 9 million next year. Plus a draft pick. The pick isn't a big deal as they seem to trade one of those every off-season now to try and patch a hole. But the money is a problem. I think they could find the cap space if they wanted to. Either extend or restructure someone - potentially Kendricks himself after a trade (I believe they did this with Wilcox). However, there is always the problem that restructuring someone (say Haden because of the amount of his contract) causes its own set of problems!

Purely from a money standpoint, I think we'd be ok. We have a HUGE amount of cap space freeing up next year - $14 million for Bell and $9 million for Shazier. (Is Gilbert's contract expiring too? That OT pick may make a lot more sense suddenly.)

In any event, that's at least $23 million just for those two players, so all we have to do is shove some salary from this year into next year with bonuses, which is easy.

As far as paying Bostic $1.5M to be the third LB, that's fine. It's not an insane amount of money, and honestly you want your first guy off the bench to be better than a complete scrub, because ILB is one position where he WILL get on the field a decent amount. So I wouldn't consider that a waste at all.

Basically the one thing we REALLY need is a linebacker who can cover, it is a fatal flaw that could be season-ending. So I am in favor of doing whatever we need to get one. Next year we'll have another big hole to fill at RB, and I don't see the OLB problem going away, so I don't know if a better solution for this season.

[Mojouw]

Purely from a money standpoint, I think we'd be ok. We have a HUGE amount of cap space freeing up next year - $14 million for Bell and $9 million for Shazier. (Is Gilbert's contract expiring too? That OT pick may make a lot more sense suddenly.)

In any event, that's at least $23 million just for those two players, so all we have to do is shove some salary from this year into next year with bonuses, which is easy.

As far as paying Bostic $1.5M to be the third LB, that's fine. It's not an insane amount of money, and honestly you want your first guy off the bench to be better than a complete scrub, because ILB is one position where he WILL get on the field a decent amount. So I wouldn't consider that a waste at all.

Basically the one thing we REALLY need is a linebacker who can cover, it is a fatal flaw that could be season-ending. So I am in favor of doing whatever we need to get one. Next year we'll have another big hole to fill at RB, and I don't see the OLB problem going away, so I don't know if a better solution for this season.

That's a good point. Not sure where you get $8 million this year, unless post trade you do some sort of contract re-work.

But I wonder if the Steelers are thinking that on 1-5 scale, Shazier was a 5. Kendricks is a 3-4 and Bostic is a 3. So is the jump to a 3.5 worth 7 million and a draft pick? I think valid arguments can be made either way. I get the gut feeling that until the team sees Bostic play, they are of the mind that the difference between Bostic and Kendricks is not big enough to justify the cost.