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Thread: Harrison retires Part 2

  1. #91
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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2


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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    It's bad enough that he bitched his way off the team and left the stadium like a jackass, but not being a mentor to younger players because they didn't want them taking his job makes him worse and easier to allow his final act to taint his legacy.

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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    There's nothing incorrect about the paragraph you bolded.

    Even if you think he was "promised" playing time, nothing is guaranteed in the NFL. Just like when players get contracts for previous production on the promise of that level of play going forward. Nobody is giving their money back when they underperform.

    Was Tony Romo promised he would play when he got healthy? Brett Favre was butthurt when Aaron Rodgers took over his job. This is life in the NFL. Everyone knows that, and nobody knows that better than NFL players like James Harrison.

    If Ben gets hurt and a young QB comes in and lights it up while he's out.....Ben is probably out of a job and on the trading block. This is reality in the NFL. I just don't understand how anybody can believe that he was screwed over by the team when he still made exactly as much money for not playing as he did for playing. If and when they promised him playing time, they probably thought there would be a much more steep learning curve for Watt, and they wanted to know what they had before they adjusted the scheme for the athleticism of Watt and Dupree. After they decided that Watt and Dupree were capable of much more than James ever could, they designed the responsibilities of the OLB position to take advantage of that athleticism and Harrison just didn't fit the scheme to be anything but a designated rusher. That's basically all he has been for a couple years.

    You also keep saying how James could still play. Here are a few question for you, but I'll answer them for you.


    When was the last time James played well in any scheme other than the Steelers scheme?

    Answer: Never. The next time James plays well for another team and is worthy of being a starter will be the first time in his career. He sucked for the Bengals, and he was a one-dimensional pass rusher for the Patriots.


    What has James ever shown from a flexibility standpoint in regards to playing in different schemes?

    Answer: None. He has never shown the ability to play in any scheme other than the Steelers 3-4 OLB scheme which was designed by LeBeau, and played to all Harrison's strengths.


    What has Harrison done from a workout perspective to improve his performance on the weaknesses of his game?

    Answer: Next to none. He spent all his time doing strength exercises and posting every workout online because he appears more interested in being a pro wrestler than he ever was in improving his flexibility, quickness, speed, cover skills, etc... He turned into a one-trick pony at the end of his career.....and that's OK. What's not OK is acting like he should be on the field when he was incapable of performing what was asked of him, and seemed to do next to nothing to get smaller and quicker.


    When has a disgruntled player ever always slept in meetings, refused to help other players, left the facilities repeatedly, gone out of his way to screw his teammates and the organization........and has been rewarded with more playing time?

    Answer: I don't know, but it should be never.


    When was the last time a team wanted him more than the Steelers did, or was willing to pay him more money?

    Answer: NEVER


    Both times James left the Steelers, he went out of his way to try to screw the team. He also always took far LESS money than he was making with the Steelers. It doesn't sound like your last paragraph even remotely applies to Harrison's situation. He was getting paid to sleep in meetings and not help the team in any way.

    It sounds to me like the Steelers were far more loyal to Harrison than he was to them.
    You're really reaching. You and I both know that James was playing DE for the Bengals, which isn't a fit for his skills. You also know that he took less money because that's what he was offered. How does signing with the only team offering him a contract equate to "screwing the team"? Him signing with the Bengals and the Patriots had absolutely no effect on the Steelers.

    You just sound like a bitter fan who takes pro sports far too personally.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Sounds like we are on the same page. I don't get how anyone can expect "loyalty" and "pro sports" to go together anymore.
    There really isn't loyalty in pro sports any more and fans shouldn't expect it from the team or the players.
    I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play!- Jack Lambert

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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerFanInStl View Post

    There really isn't loyalty in pro sports any more and fans shouldn't expect it from the team or the players.
    I understand that pro sports is a multi-billion dollar business and I don't necessarily expect loyalty from teams or players. however, the way Deebo decided to handle things does taint his legacy as a Pittsburgh Steeler in my eyes.

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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerFanInStl View Post
    You're really reaching. You and I both know that James was playing DE for the Bengals, which isn't a fit for his skills. You also know that he took less money because that's what he was offered. How does signing with the only team offering him a contract equate to "screwing the team"? Him signing with the Bengals and the Patriots had absolutely no effect on the Steelers.

    You just sound like a bitter fan who takes pro sports far too personally.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There really isn't loyalty in pro sports any more and fans shouldn't expect it from the team or the players.


    And you sound like a fan boy with zero real information to backup your point. I just laid out a reasonable and completely understandable assessment of Harrison's two divorces with the Steelers which I described in detail over a few posts.

    I'm a bitter fan?

    I'm always looking at the bright side. I'm a guy that always preaches patience with young players before screaming that they're a bust like so many here. I'm the guy that goes to the gameday threads and has to read reactionary crap from guys like you rip the team every time they don't score a touchdown on every play......but I'm a bitter fan huh? Talk about being hypocritical.

    You have nothing to bring to the discussion. I didn't rip you or attack you. I simply made a couple statements about Harrison.

    How about actually giving some information to help make your point? Oh, that's right.....you don't have any.



    Here's another factoid for you
    SteelerFanInStl: Harrison stated it was a goal of his and his agent to stay in the AFC North when he signed with the Bengals.


    http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/...ntract-bengals


    Is there any more misinformation that you want to spew out?


    Oh, and he played OLB in their 4-3 scheme, not DE like you said, which is exactly why I mentioned him not being scheme-versatile.

    Wow...you're on fire.
    Last edited by pczach; Yesterday at 08:02 PM.

  6. #96

    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiianSteeler
    snip
    Strawman argument: a misrepresentation or exaggeration of an argument to make it easier to attack.
    You: Loyalty is important to me when considering a player as an all time great.

    Me: Inquired about the validity of your argument by introducing three other players your argument can be applied to and asking if you would say the same about them not being all-time greats.

    That's not a strawman. That's asking whether you are consistent with your argument or still arguing out of emotion because the event is still new. (For me, it's the latter. I consider all three Steelers greats, and will do so with Harrison, but right now it's still too fresh in my mind to really state it with conviction at the moment).

    Had I wanted to engage in strawman argumentation, it would have looked something like this:

    Example 1: So, anyone who goes to any team is not worth of being "great" in your eyes? I guess that means Alan Faneca is not a great?
    This is a strawman because you didn't say "any team." While you didn't outright state it, the ideas was a team that could be considered a rival.

    Example 2: So, Kordell Stewart shouldn't be mentioned in light of his place as third best QB per records because he went to the Ravens?
    This is a strawman because you did not argue record. It is not a strawman, however, concerning him playing for the Ravens since he was cut by the Steelers just as Deebo was cut before he went to the Bengals.
    This argument is not a strawman due to it being about Stewart, but it is an invalid argument because Stewart isn't considered an all-time great player.
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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    uh, no.

    Strawman argument: a misrepresentation or exaggeration of an argument to make it easier to attack.

    You: Loyalty is important to me when considering a player as an all time great.

    Me: Inquired about the validity of your argument by introducing three other players your argument can be applied to and asking if you would say the same about them not being all-time greats.

    That's not a strawman. That's asking whether you are consistent with your argument or still arguing out of emotion because the event is still new. (For me, it's the latter. I consider all three Steelers greats, and will do so with Harrison, but right now it's still too fresh in my mind to really state it with conviction at the moment).
    I'm not debating the circumstances that led Woodson, Anderson and Franco to end up playing for other teams and how they handled those circumstances that were unique to their situations.

    I'm only discussing the way Deebo decided to handle things and yes, some of the decisions he made does taint his legacy as a Pittsburgh Steeler in my eyes.

  8. #98

    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    I'm not debating the circumstances that led Woodson, Anderson and Franco to end up playing for other teams and how they handled those circumstances that were unique to their situations.

    I'm only discussing the way Deebo decided to handle things and yes, some of the decisions he made does taint his legacy as a Pittsburgh Steeler in my eyes.
    And, so, my question still stands: does it taint Rod Woodson's legacy or Gary Anderson's legacy? To a lesser degree (due to it being anachronistic) does it taint Franco Harris's legacy?

    (Another off-the-wall note: I still hate the change to s's for possessives even if it is a name ending in s. It just looks strange).

    Of course, that does bring up Alan Faneca and Joey Porter. Both of them mouthed their way off the team because they were unhappy.
    Last edited by Craic; Today at 08:41 AM.
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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    I think this is a great thread and I do understand both points of view.

    I am just not sure what there is to get heated about.
    "With love, with patience, and with Faith
    ....She'll make her way" ~ Natalie Merchant

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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerFanInStl View Post
    You're really reaching. You and I both know that James was playing DE for the Bengals, which isn't a fit for his skills.
    Deebo played OLB in the Bengals' 4-3 defense, not DE.

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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Yeah, I just mentioned that in my post above.

    There appears to be a lot of things he's a little fuzzy about.

    What do I know. I'm just a bitter fan.

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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    Yeah, I just mentioned that in my post above.

    There appears to be a lot of things he's a little fuzzy about.

    What do I know. I'm just a bitter fan.
    don't forget that you also take pro sports far too personally.

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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    don't forget that you also take pro sports far too personally.

    Thank you...I forgot.


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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    ....before that you were likely tired of the "we should have drafted Eddy Lacy" threads.
    Or... anything posted by Dodens Grav.

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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    So, you're saying you wouldn't consider Rod Woodson an all-time Steelers great?




    Our all-time kicker is Gary Anderson, but you wouldn't consider him an all-time great?


    (Lest we forget, these are the former Oilers, a division rival that Anderson would have played against several times as a Steelers player).

    Of course, even though this is an anachronism, we can't forget the best RB in Franco Harris:
    Gary Anderson played for the Titans? Traitor!



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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    There's nothing incorrect about the paragraph you bolded.

    Even if you think he was "promised" playing time, nothing is guaranteed in the NFL. Just like when players get contracts for previous production on the promise of that level of play going forward. Nobody is giving their money back when they underperform.

    Was Tony Romo promised he would play when he got healthy? Brett Favre was butthurt when Aaron Rodgers took over his job. This is life in the NFL. Everyone knows that, and nobody knows that better than NFL players like James Harrison.

    If Ben gets hurt and a young QB comes in and lights it up while he's out.....Ben is probably out of a job and on the trading block. This is reality in the NFL. I just don't understand how anybody can believe that he was screwed over by the team when he still made exactly as much money for not playing as he did for playing. If and when they promised him playing time, they probably thought there would be a much more steep learning curve for Watt, and they wanted to know what they had before they adjusted the scheme for the athleticism of Watt and Dupree. After they decided that Watt and Dupree were capable of much more than James ever could, they designed the responsibilities of the OLB position to take advantage of that athleticism and Harrison just didn't fit the scheme to be anything but a designated rusher. That's basically all he has been for a couple years.

    You also keep saying how James could still play. Here are a few question for you, but I'll answer them for you.


    When was the last time James played well in any scheme other than the Steelers scheme?

    Answer: Never. The next time James plays well for another team and is worthy of being a starter will be the first time in his career. He sucked for the Bengals, and he was a one-dimensional pass rusher for the Patriots.


    What has James ever shown from a flexibility standpoint in regards to playing in different schemes?

    Answer: None. He has never shown the ability to play in any scheme other than the Steelers 3-4 OLB scheme which was designed by LeBeau, and played to all Harrison's strengths.


    What has Harrison done from a workout perspective to improve his performance on the weaknesses of his game?

    Answer: Next to none. He spent all his time doing strength exercises and posting every workout online because he appears more interested in being a pro wrestler than he ever was in improving his flexibility, quickness, speed, cover skills, etc... He turned into a one-trick pony at the end of his career.....and that's OK. What's not OK is acting like he should be on the field when he was incapable of performing what was asked of him, and seemed to do next to nothing to get smaller and quicker.


    When has a disgruntled player ever always slept in meetings, refused to help other players, left the facilities repeatedly, gone out of his way to screw his teammates and the organization........and has been rewarded with more playing time?

    Answer: I don't know, but it should be never.


    When was the last time a team wanted him more than the Steelers did, or was willing to pay him more money?

    Answer: NEVER


    Both times James left the Steelers, he went out of his way to try to screw the team. He also always took far LESS money than he was making with the Steelers. It doesn't sound like your last paragraph even remotely applies to Harrison's situation. He was getting paid to sleep in meetings and not help the team in any way.

    It sounds to me like the Steelers were far more loyal to Harrison than he was to them.
    Too quickly add to you NFL guarantee comment...what’s his name QB that the Seahawks signed as a starter ... Matt Flynn ... only to be beaten out by rookie Russell Wilson.




  17. #107
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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Or... anything posted by Dodens Grav.
    I used to intentionally take the other side of the argument I believed in so Dodens Grav would then end up agreeing with what I really believed

  18. #108

    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    Yeah, I just mentioned that in my post above.

    There appears to be a lot of things he's a little fuzzy about.

    What do I know. I'm just a bitter (beer face) fan.



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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2





    Okay, okay... I'm really sorry. I'll stop calling Deebo a traitor. Seriously.

    From here on out, I'll refer to him as Judas.

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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    If Ben gets hurt and a young QB comes in and lights it up while he's out.....Ben is probably out of a job and on the trading block.
    Yep. Or retires. Ben knows exactly how that works (coughTommyGuncough).

  21. #111
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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    I used to intentionally take the other side of the argument I believed in so Dodens Grav would then end up agreeing with what I really believed
    I bet that pissed him off... but, of course, EVERYTHING pissed him off.

  22. #112
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    Re: Harrison retires Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Too quickly add to you NFL guarantee comment...what’s his name QB that the Seahawks signed as a starter ... Matt Flynn ... only to be beaten out by rookie Russell Wilson.


    Thank you. This is something that is universally understood.

    I had to say it when Troy couldn't do it anymore. I loved the guy and everything he did here, but he couldn't do it on the field anymore. It doesn't make him less of a player for his career. It just meant that he had given everything he had and it was time for the next generation to get a younger player that was physically capable.

    Far too many times, it's the player or the blinded fan that doesn't want to see what everyone else can plainly see that understands the game. They just don't have it anymore.

    Remember, there are fans here that have been saying that Ben has lost it for many years now.....but James Harrison is still playing at a high level. Let that one sink in.

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