Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
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The thing is, that gentleman has a series of well thought out and impassioned points that are relevant, but he is not the majority. Almost across the board, the majority of Americans claim to want less guns and more regulation of firearms.
http://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx
In fact for the overwhelming majority of the last 2 decades (so a generation?) gun owners in America have been the minority.
I am in favor of private gun ownership, I just simply believe that it should be significantly harder to obtain a gun than a driver's license.
Originally Posted by Mojouw
I adamantly disagree
I won't bother to look at the poll because quite frankly I do not have any faith in such things ( no path to victory ring a bell about polls ? )
a drivers license is a privilege and not a constitutional guaranteed right .
cars kill more people in this country a year than guns .
drunk drivers kill more people every year than are murdered with guns .
firearms related death statistics comprise all forms of firearms death including suicide and death at the hands of a Police officer in the line of duty thus are a misleading ( intentionally so ) statistic . those same statistics include the deaths or armed perps who are killed by home owners defending their own lives and lives of family members ..so calling the stats skewed is putting it very mildly
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
Didn't bring up death rates at all, not sure why you jumped to that. If you do not believe basic statistics, not sure what path forward there is for dialogue. I mean I am not sure how a poll can misrepresent legal gun ownership. Every study, poll, report from actual gun manufacturers, etc indicates that while there are a great deal of privately owned firearms in the United States (roughly 300 million from a quick Google search) these firearms are owned by roughly 1 in 3 households. Which means, the majority of Americans do not own a (legal) firearm.I adamantly disagree
I won't bother to look at the poll because quite frankly I do not have any faith in such things ( no path to victory ring a bell about polls ? )
a drivers license is a privilege and not a constitutional guaranteed right .
cars kill more people in this country a year than guns .
drunk drivers kill more people every year than are murdered with guns .
firearms related death statistics comprise all forms of firearms death including suicide and death at the hands of a Police officer in the line of duty thus are a misleading ( intentionally so ) statistic . those same statistics include the deaths or armed perps who are killed by home owners defending their own lives and lives of family members ..so calling the stats skewed is putting it very mildly
So it is false to argue that gun ownership is the majority status in the United States as a whole. In certain areas of the country it almost certainly is. The support of the principle of gun ownership may also be higher than 1 in 3 - but the actual possession of gun is simply not the majority overall across the country.
Don't know why that is controversial, hard to accept, or otherwise debatable.
As for Constitutional rights - how about voting? Why is harder to prove you are a legitimate voter than it is to purchase a gun? Again, I'm not about banning guns, taking away guns individuals already possess, etc -- but it just seems kinda BS that some Constitutional rights are far harder to exercise than others. And only one can directly lead to the harm or death of another person...
see the bold is why we can not have a logical debate on the topic ...
have you ever in your lifetime went to a gun shop and tried to buy a gun ?
if you have then you know for a fact what you said could not be further from the truth ... just more of the misinformation spread by the media and people soak it up like a sponge for no other reason than they haven't a clue based on first hand knowledge and therefore can not call bullshit ....
here is why it is wrong ....
I can go to my polling place and vote takes me 5 mins to drive there , 30 seconds to show ID , 2 mins to cast my ballot and 5 more mins to drive back home the entire process door to door in less than 15 total mins time
hell I can not even get to a gun shop in 15 mins time ...
once there even if you know EXACTLY what you are after you spend a good 15 mins filling out paperwork ( paperwork I should not have to fill out since I have a valid concealed carry permit so an extensive background check has already been done ) once I am done the dealer has some paperwork to do and then a phone call to the national instacheck background check ( through the FBI ) at which time my social is given to them and they run a check on me .... at the end of the call the dealer is provided with a pass or fail and a number to associate with my purchase ....
so to say you can buy a gun quicker than you can vote ( or as Obama said buy a book ) is a complete fallacy
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
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Because you have to pass a federal back ground check every time you vote?
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While nothing I could say will change your mind - I'll give it a whirl.
Try attempting to exercise your right to vote without a birth certificate. This is usually the foundational form that allows for all other identification to be possible. Many Americans simply do not have birth certificates (here is a good example if you are interested - http://facetofacegermantown.org/news...-staff-writer/). This is becoming less of a problem as the generations of people born outside of the formal system is basically dying off -- but it is still a real barrier to a significant amount of people. Primarily some combination of rural, poor, and minority voters.
You said you drive to your polling place - what if you don't have a car and there is no or limited public transport to your polling place? What if that polling place is too far to walk to? While there are other means of voting (mail) the lack of a conveniently accessible polling place creates a significant barrier for many poor, elderly, and rural voters.
There are numerous other examples, but these two are some of the most comparable.
Additionally, I full realize there are significant paperwork and background checks for gun purchases and permits. Clearly as someone who has gone through the process, you are fully aware of it. Still, getting a gun is about the easiest and most straightforward thing possible and you can even sidestep portions of the process if you buy your gun in the right state through the right setting that sidesteps much of the paperwork. Voting? No such luck in most places.
But we have really wandered far afield of my original and extremely limited point/purpose: The majority of Americans do not own a firearm. That was literally my only point. Again, not sure why that is so controversial.
sorry bro , I do not buy that logic either .. I registered to vote through the DMV ( I believe its been many years ago ) I did not need a birth certificate to do so my drivers license number was sufficient as the state has all pertinant information valid through that 1 document ....
that said this not only tells us what the 2nd amendment is for it also tells us the framers intent of such
please do read that sign in its entirety
Pennsylvania state constitution goes even further , instead of the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed ...replace the word infringed with Questioned .....
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
I never questioned the right to bear arms and I never seriously suggested enacting anything that would infringe on that right either. I just get really tired of any side of any issue presuming to speak for the "majority" simply because the people the know and are related to mostly agree with them. That is, for most people, the core group they draw their opinions from. Most Americans don't own a gun. That's the only thing I have been saying. I have a ton of views on a variety of issues, where I fully understand that somewhere between a slight majority to an overwhelming majority hold different viewpoints/actions than I do. Great - that is the point of the whole system we live under. But I never presume to represent the majority of people just because I really believe strongly about something. In most cases, that just shuts off our minds to other points of view.sorry bro , I do not buy that logic either .. I registered to vote through the DMV ( I believe its been many years ago ) I did not need a birth certificate to do so my drivers license number was sufficient as the state has all pertinant information valid through that 1 document ....
that said this not only tells us what the 2nd amendment is for it also tells us the framers intent of such
please do read that sign in its entirety
Pennsylvania state constitution goes even further , instead of the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed ...replace the word infringed with Questioned .....
As to the voting and ID issues it is a complex topic that likely needs not be delved too far into. But the bottom line is that there are significant hurdles for some Americans for voting. Individual cases may vary and again, do not always represent all situations.
Bottom line - I don't own a gun and likely never will. But I support the right of anyone who subjects themselves to a legal process to own however many guns they damn well please. The only thing I would change if granted the power is the so called "gun show loophole" where in certain settings a gun can be purchased with little to no ID, paperwork, and background checking. In order to try and keep things sensible, I think there should remain a provision for passing on firearms through families that does not require state intervention.
I may additionally strongly consider some sort of mechanism to link mental health risk assessment to this process - but someone smarter than me would need to figure out how that works.
But again, I am wandering further and further from my overall point.
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I do not agree that the average American should have military grade weapons in their home.
However, the constitution does give that right to the average American. And that is the part I do agree with. I am against any movement that takes rights away from the average American.
I grew up with guns in the house so maybe I am biased. But I completely agree that the entire reason we live in a free society now, is because we have the right to bear arms, and not just the hunting rifle variety, but a right to the military grade weapons as well. How and why do people slip through the system is a completely different topic for conversation, and the conversation that needs to be had rather than what guns are within my rights to own.
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The "gun show loophole" is nothing more than a myth that the left started. Any gun sold at a gun show is subject to the exact same process of buying in a store.
7 Gun Control Myths That Just Won’t Die
In reality, the so-called “gun show loophole” is a myth. It does not exist. There is no loophole in federal law that specifically exempts gun show transactions from any other laws normally applied to gun sales. Not one.
If you purchase a firearm from a federal firearms licensee (FFL) regardless of the location of the transaction — a gun store, a gun show, a gun dealer’s car trunk, etc. — that FFL must confirm that you are legally allowed to purchase that gun. That means the FFL must either run a background check on you via the federal NICS database, or confirm that you have passed a background check by examining your state-issued concealed carry permit or your government-issued purchase permit. There are zero exceptions to this federal requirement.
http://thefederalist.com/2015/10/07/...just-wont-die/
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good post with exception to the bold ...
an AR 15 or AK 47 that is legally owned by private citizens are NOT Military grade firearms
an M16 or M4 is military versions of the AR they have burst mode/ full auto capabilities that the AR simply does not have
same with the AK the civilian versions like the AR have no burst mode or full auto mode
if either did they would be $8,000 and up in price and would require a federal tax stamp in order to purchase ...
this " military grade crap" is the evening news and uninformed politicians spouting off about things in which they have no clue about ...
semi auto 1 shot fired for every 1 trigger pull not much different in that found in old wheel guns ( 6 shooters / revolvers ) used in the old west
one of my AR's here
note the bullet chart ( ar is .223 / 5.56 ) I hunt deer with a 30.06 note the size in that round also in pic below
lastly the primary 2 reasons the US Military went from 30 caliber to the M16 ( 22 caliber ) is
1) ammo weight was a huge factor you can carry way more rounds of smaller lighter ammo into battle
2) it is a far less lethal round , meaning you could shoot 1 person and effectively take 2-3 more out of the battle for a time while they drug their wounded compatriot to safer ground
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
Poor phrasing on my part. There are some, not all, vendors at places like gun shows, swap meets, whatever the heck - that are NOT FFL. That is where, other than passing guns to family members, I have a problem with it.
I should have known better than to use a click-baity term. To be clear, I am specifically referring to the likely minority number of firearms vendors that do not participate in the background check system.
I can not speak for all states but here in Pa if you sell a handgun and there is not paperwork though a dealer you are in deep doodoo if you are caught and you WILL be held accountable for anything that happens with that firearm if whomever you sell it to kills someone you are going down too
as for rifles and shotguns it is the sellers obligation to ask if the buyer is able to legally own a firearm but face to face sales are permitted ...
that being said 99% of all homicides in the country that a firearm is the weapon used it is a handgun yet 99% of all the legislative action we see by politicians and the news media reporting is on Long guns because well they can use terms like Military grade etc and most are none the wiser ( scare tactics )
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
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The ATF frowns upon dealing without a license. I believe it'll get you up to 5 yrs or so in the big house. So not participating in the system is in fact illegal.
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Yup. You are correct. But in this case, I believe, that PA has passed state level laws that are superseding and going beyond federal laws.
Conversation about long guns is being driven by their use in mass shootings.
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If you claim you are an occassional non-profit seller you can do without the FFL.
A 2015 study indicated that 15% of "guns how" sales were from an unlicensed vendor. Works out to 5 million guns. Unfortunately no word on what kind of guns. How many were antiques or collectibles? How many were more modern, etc.
As DWins pointed out, many states have passed laws more stringent than the feds have. So all of this is not an entirely consistent system.
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Perhaps, but that statistic is wildly misleading. Anyone can go anywhere in their state and sell a gun to someone else. It's a private deal. At a gun show, private deals can also happen. It's not a "gunshow loophole." It's simply private sales at a gunshow. People choose to do it there because (1) it is safer than inviting some stranger to your home, (2) it doesn't freak people out like it would meeting in the shopping-center parking lot—how long before half a dozen police cars roll up on you? and (3) you don't have to take out advertisements and expose yourself as a gunowner to the world. Instead, you go somewhere where there are hundreds if not thousands of likely buyers. Moreover, it is also incumbent upon the seller to make sure the buyer can own a firearm, otherwise, they are subject to penalties and in some states, held accountable for what the buyer does with the gun under certain conditions.
The stupidest thing about all of that? I, as a private citizen, cannot access the NICS system in any way to make sure the person buying the gun is legally able to buy it.
You're last point is basically what I am getting at. Regardless of what we want to term it, the best available data I can find indicates roughly 5 million guns change hands each year with no background check and little paperwork. I personally don't think that should happen outside of some fairly specific scenarios.
and that my friend is not a gun legislation issue , it is however a bureaucracy issue ...
I would GLADLY ( as a gun owner and occasional seller of a used firearm ) spend the 2 bucks ( actual cost to a dealer ) to ensure the person I am selling to is a law abiding citizen , it would then open up a larger segment of the population for me to deal with as the way it is now I will not sell to anyone that does not have a Conceal carry permit ( that way I know they have been vetted at least at some point )
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
Very true! Regulation does not always have to mean legislation. I think there are some "common sense" changes that can be made around the issue of "guns" in America that most people would and do support.
As several folks have indicated the language is just so charged that it is really hard to calmly talk about it. I feel into the trap myself in this thread by not being clear about what I meant.
I think the issue is only going to get more contentious as the country really divides geographically and demographically in gun ownership. It sucks that it is so hard to talk about the issue, because almost every gun owner I know is extremely responsible and diligent about their guns and those of others as well.
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See Dwins video, the so called politicians and media are the ones who trying to divide the country on just about every issue.
Put the blame where it really lies with the failure of the FBI/government that failed in their background checks. They blame an inanimate object(gun), law abiding citizens, manufactures, the NRA, ect, instead of the actual lunatic shooter.
Blaming the NRA for shootings is like blaming AAA for drunk driving.
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While the media and politicians may indeed divide the population, there are simply divides based on where you live.
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I do not have anything to back it up here, but I'm going to go ahead a disagree with this statistic map. Putting % instead of raw numbers does not do the real picture any justice. In my opinion.While the media and politicians may indeed divide the population, there are simply divides based on where you live.
we do not even know what those percentage include/ disallow
since only handguns are regulated in most states who is to say who owns what ?
if I buy a shotgun in a private sale that is 1 shotgun they have no clue where it is and as you say 5 million a year disperse in that very manner
I think it is only fair to assume that some of those guns are in households believed to not own a firearm
could that / would that not skew the entire map of percentages ?
then are they including the entire population in those percentages ( where many are not old enough to own a gun ? )
are they including those in nursing homes and private care homes where they have basically left all their belongings behind ?
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
the mental health issue is the largest issue we have in terms of firearms IMO....
go back through history and look at " mass shootings" in this country and never has it been more prevalent than it is today .
what I believe factors into it is we have people walking among us today highly medicated with mind altering drugs at a higher rate than in any time in our history
those people for the most part blend in with society and go for the most part unnoticed .
that is all well and good for the most part provided they stay regulated with proper dosages and do not skip or quit the meds .( nobody can control or regulate that aspect )
the other side of that is many of the drugs they are using to combat mental illness have very dramatic and devastating side effects , the very drugs they are being given often times to control their mental state also could be the driving force that puts them over the edge ...
we did not have these issues until the mid 80's ( consequently around the same time mass shootings started being an issue )
the major change in society and mental health was at that time is when most state mental hospitals started to close and those folks that where in there where turned over to family to live among the population unchecked but medicated ... again medications that they where on their own to manage ..
we see a rise in violent crime in the form of mass shootings perhaps not due to any of those that where once institutionalized but folks that would have perhaps been had those institutions not closed .
kids being put on mind altering drugs at a very young age started to become common place , in many instances unnecessarily . those drugs rewire the brain so to speak and when 1 drug does not create a solution they change it out for another and another and yet another remapping the entire brain and how it works ... ( meanwhile many of them should have never been on drug 1 let alone drug 5 )
now the kid turns 18 is considered an adult and can be out on his own , decides upon himself to stop taking said drugs ( the very drugs that often times screwed him up in the first place ) and his brain is all over the place trying to once again detoxify and rewire itself in how it functions ...
we often times can not look at an individual and see a mental incapacity within their head ( sometimes you can but not always ) Hipaa laws do not permit any such checks within background checks so a gun dealer has only his visual stability of potential buyers to go on before allowing a gun to walk out the door if said individual passed the background check ( they have a right to refuse sale if they notice things about the potential buyer but those hints are not always prevalent ) ....
most people are for the most part no different today than they where 200 years ago in terms to the value of life , I have never heard of 1 account from the 1800s where some kid took a gun to school and shot up his class and guns where for the most part more readily available to them then ( no gun safes in the house ) most homes esp on the frontier and old west had a gun over the fireplace , one loaded in the corner and a gun belt with a 6 shooter hanging by the door in a hat /coat rack on the wall .... in those times a couple things where very different ... no mental health drugs being used on small children and parents disciplined their children much differently ..... respect was taught and fear of being disobedient was a real thing ...
I have ventured way further off topic than I probably should have and for that I apologize but the points are still valid from where I sit , your opinion I am sure will differ to some degree
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
I'm not sure what seems so off about the map. No need to focus on the specific %'s - just that they can and do differ regionally. I've seen similar maps at the state and county level. In my own state, there is a significant geographic and demographic divide in gun ownership of any kind. In certain parts of the state, I would put gun ownership at 1 in 3 or 2 in 4 at best. In other parts of the state, I am certain that number goes to 2 in 3 or 3 out of 4.
Not sure why that would be a controversial or suspicious number?
http://www.oregonlive.com/data/2015/...rs_mapped.html
"The data are available for download from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol and Firearms and include all licensed firearm importers, dealers and pawnbrokers. Excluded from our selection were people who: make or sell devices such as flare guns; manufacture firearms; or collect what the ATF calls "curios and relics.""
If there are different amounts of gun dealers in different geographic areas, one would assume that may also correlate with different rates of market demand for that good and service?
Again, I am not trying to make some grand over-arching point. I am simply trying to say that how you feel about guns, gun safety, gun ownership, and gun regulation is going to have a ton to do with where you grew up and now live. Some areas of the country have very low rates of gun ownership and people have an overall unfamiliarity with all aspects and tend to come down in favor of greater restrictions and regulation. Other areas of the country have higher rates of gun ownership and people develop a greater comfort and familiarity with guns and gun ownership and typically support less regulation and oversight.
Any data visualization that attempt to cover an area the size of the US and represents several hundred million people is going to have to make a few concessions to generalization and presentation. But is anyone shocked to discover that more households own guns in Montana than in Rhode Island and by a wide margin? I fail to see what is unexpected about that?
914,000 hunting licenses sold in the state of Pa , not everyone that owns a firearm hunts ....( its not close really ) I know many people who just enjoy the shooting sport but do not hunt about 300 members at my local gun range ( the one I am a member of several others around as well ) only about half of the members hunt but all own guns
my county alone over 13,000 conceal carry permits ( Population 88,000 ) and most people I know locally do not have a CCW but do own a gun of some kind ...
point being nailing down a percentage without knowing how many guns there are in a state ( people move and some move a LOT ) people sell things privately ( it happens a lot go to armslist.com private sales from every state literally thousands of listings per state ) there is no way to know who buys /who sells if the seller had multiple guns and let go of a few and the people that bought had zero now have 1 each ...
not disputing a lot do not have guns , but am saying more have them than people realize and the numbers will never be accurately depicted ...
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
Array title="Mach1 has a reputation beyond repute">
What are the gun laws in Rhode Island vs. Montana. I'd bet theres a world of difference. Without taking that into consideration it's apple to oranges in states that pretty much ban guns, make it next to impossible to those who don't. Like comparing comifornia to wyoming for instance.
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You also can't count the ones who say they don't own guns for the simple fact that it's no ones business what they own or not.
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I don't know how to make this any clearer. There are regional and community based differences in rates of gun ownership and consequently the attitudes people hold about guns.
Obviously there are a number of factors that can influence this reality such as legislation, leisure activities, living environment, etc. Additionally, the specific EXACT #'s might change but the fact that there are variations and often significant ones across our massive and diverse country is just a fact.
It doesn't have to mean anything good or bad. It is not a judgement or a belief statement tied to a specific ideology. It is just a thing that is.
Depending on your local community, gun ownership may be the majority or it may not. That's going to impact how the issues surrounding guns get talked about in that area/region.
Again, it seems that some are taking offense at this idea or assuming I am using it for some larger agenda - and I am not.
All I want to point out is that in some places owning a gun is the majority. In some places it is not. I've lived in both and it has impacted how I think about the issue.
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