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Thread: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    Lamar Jackson often makes really bad inaccurate throws, watch the TaxSlayer Bowl where he threw 4 ints against Miss St. I just don't see him succeeding against NFL defensive backs.

    we gambled a 4th round pick on Josh Dobbs, I wouldn't want to see us use a 1st round selection on Lamar Jackson when we have so many other needs.
    completely agree on the bigger needs ... ILB /OLB/S/RB all higher on my personal wish list than QB in first 3 rounds
    Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    Lamar Jackson often makes really bad inaccurate throws, watch the TaxSlayer Bowl where he threw 4 ints against Miss St. I just don't see him succeeding against NFL defensive backs.

    we gambled a 4th round pick on Josh Dobbs, I wouldn't want to see us use a 1st round selection on Lamar Jackson when we have so many other needs.
    I don't think that the debate is really about whether or not the Steelers should or need to select Jackson in the upcoming draft. I think it is more a debate about how teams have evaluated and ranked the QB prospects versus how they will actually perform in the NFL.

    While I agree with you that I feel that 2018 is not the year for the Steelers to get their next starting QB, I do want them to evaluate the QB class in a serious way and then track their evaluations and projections against what actually happened. Was the player drafted where the Steelers thought he would be? Did he perform in the NFL anywhere near what their projection system had him doing? If the answer is "Yes" to both of those questions than the team can be relatively confident that they have built an evaluation and projection model for QBs that will allow them to identify and select their next "franchise" QB. If the answer to either or both of those questions is "No". Then the team has to rebuild and revise their modelling.

    For me, that is what Lamar Jackson is so interesting a case. It really isn't going to be the guys who everyone agrees on (Darnold and Rosen) that test your evaluation system, it is going to be the polarizing prospects.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Lamar Jackson is the most polarizing player in this draft.

    This is the FIRST discussion that I’ve seen/read where it didn’t turn verrrrry ugly. That’s a credit to all of us, because we can actually “discuss” edgy topics, because we use logic, facts, and data (as opposed to reverting to blind, obstinate opinion).

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Lamar Jackson is the most polarizing player in this draft.

    This is the FIRST discussion that I’ve seen/read where it didn’t turn verrrrry ugly. That’s a credit to all of us, because we can actually “discuss” edgy topics, because we use logic, facts, and data (as opposed to reverting to blind, obstinate opinion).
    That's your opinion.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    That's your opinion.


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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Upside he is the next Michael Vick! Downside he is the next Michael Vick and I would pass on him. Again we already have a qb on the roster just like him and potential to be better. I still don't have a problem drafting a qb early but hope they get one we don't already have on the roster.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    This would be the worst scenario as a first round pick for the Steelers. These type of players have a couple good seasons but ultimately aren’t an NFL caliber winning QB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    At least Colbert and Tomlin got LaMar's mom to let him goto dinner with them. The extra time should allow them to get a further read on his attitude, intelligence, character and whether he would be a fit for the team. We can speculate on completion % and wonderlic all we want, but meetings like that and some chalk talk are really important part of the process to figure out if a kid is worth drafting.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue View Post
    Upside he is the next Michael Vick! Downside he is the next Michael Vick and I would pass on him. Again we already have a qb on the roster just like him and potential to be better. I still don't have a problem drafting a qb early but hope they get one we don't already have on the roster.
    Not me... I want the next Ben.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    A smart player should avoid a big name agent when entering the league since the prices are pretty much set. I would do the same, and just hire a lawyer to do the paperwork. But when I was getting close to my second contract I would definitely hire an proven agent especially if I was lighting the league up.

    That said, being from Philly and watching Eric Lindros's father basically ruin his career in Philly ... having a parent or friend act as your agent is flat out a bad idea.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra Tank View Post
    A smart player should avoid a big name agent when entering the league since the prices are pretty much set. I would do the same, and just hire a lawyer to do the paperwork. But when I was getting close to my second contract I would definitely hire an proven agent especially if I was lighting the league up.

    That said, being from Philly and watching Eric Lindros's father basically ruin his career in Philly ... having a parent or friend act as your agent is flat out a bad idea.
    "I've had several teams tell me they're having trouble just getting to set up appointments to meet with him," Mayock said Thursday during
    Path to the Draft
    's coverage of the UL pro day. "Not just work out, but appointments to meet with him, to put him up on the board, to work him out, to have dinner with him. And remember, and again I'm not taking a shot here at anybody, his mom is representing him, his mom has obviously his best interest at heart, but
    you're doing the kid a disservice if NFL coaches and general managers are calling and you can't even get an appointment set up
    ."

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...-lamar-jackson

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    This would be the worst scenario as a first round pick for the Steelers. These type of players have a couple good seasons but ultimately aren’t an NFL caliber winning QB.
    Exactly and Vince Young and Kap come to mind. No way Steelers waste a 1 pick on him.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day


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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    There is a good article on SI.com that mentions how some teams are able to make contact, while others are not. It also touches on how Jackson's mom has always steered him away from non QB activities like kick returns or even safety vs hail mary passes in HS. The plan has always been to present him as a QB.

    I don't think its some elaborate plan to save on agent fees, but more of that they want to try and control the process and steer the process towards teams they want. If that is the case, it smells a bit like how Robert Griffin III father was a bit too influential of his son during his time in Washington. Hopefully Tomlin and Colbert had enough time with him to get some insight as to if the family dynamics are something that is fine or a red flag.

    I personally think Jackson has a great arm, elite athleticism and his footwork and base have improved, but he still needs a lot of work on his mechanics so that he is more consistent as a passer. He might be the next Randall Cunningham, but I think when Cunningham became a passer first instead of a QB that liked to run, he was most impactful in the NFL. If they do their diligence and draft him at the end of the 1st round, I will trust that there is a good plan in place for him. For all we know, the pro day and meetings revealed something they don't like, or something the love. Will find out in a few weeks.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    There is a good article on SI.com that mentions how some teams are able to make contact, while others are not. It also touches on how Jackson's mom has always steered him away from non QB activities like kick returns or even safety vs hail mary passes in HS. The plan has always been to present him as a QB.

    I don't think its some elaborate plan to save on agent fees, but more of that they want to try and control the process and steer the process towards teams they want. If that is the case, it smells a bit like how Robert Griffin III father was a bit too influential of his son during his time in Washington. Hopefully Tomlin and Colbert had enough time with him to get some insight as to if the family dynamics are something that is fine or a red flag.

    I personally think Jackson has a great arm, elite athleticism and his footwork and base have improved, but he still needs a lot of work on his mechanics so that he is more consistent as a passer. He might be the next Randall Cunningham, but I think when Cunningham became a passer first instead of a QB that liked to run, he was most impactful in the NFL. If they do their diligence and draft him at the end of the 1st round, I will trust that there is a good plan in place for him. For all we know, the pro day and meetings revealed something they don't like, or something the love. Will find out in a few weeks.
    Doesn't have to be such an extreme negative case like RG III. The Manning and Elway family exerted enormous influence on where both Eli and John went in the draft and how they were perceived. This may be no different than that. Both those guys turned out fine.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    The guy could be a backup for a few years, but he is no NFL starter and never will be. I wouldn't even give him a clipboard.
    All Defense!

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by ALLD View Post
    The guy could be a backup for a few years, but he is no NFL starter and never will be. I wouldn't even give him a clipboard.
    Why? That's a pretty firm stance, he's definitely more talented than our current backups.


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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Doesn't have to be such an extreme negative case like RG III. The Manning and Elway family exerted enormous influence on where both Eli and John went in the draft and how they were perceived. This may be no different than that. Both those guys turned out fine.
    John Elway's father was a prominent coach and during the draft (and presumably his career) his agent Marvin Demoff helped guide him in the business process of the NFL.
    Eli Manning's father was a prominent former QB and his agent Tom Condon helped guide the business part of Eli Manning's career.

    Both Elway and Manning were prototypical NFL QB's and concensus top picks, with families that have a long standing knowledge of college and NFL football and presumably a great network of people they can lean on for advice. They still chose agents to navigate the process. Lamar Jackson is not the prototypical NFL QB. He threw footballs at the combine that fluttered and some looked like they were launched by a slingshot. His mother Felicia Jones does not appear to have the background in professional or college football to the level of Archie Manning or Jack Elway.

    Felicia Jones involvement with her son's career may end the day he is drafted, or she may continue to arrange his appearances, endorsements, meetings with team management.....I don't know. But to compare Jackson's situation to that of Manning or Elway is comparing Apples to Turnips IMO.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by 43Hitman View Post
    Why? That's a pretty firm stance, he's definitely more talented than our current backups.
    I agree. I think he can be a really good NFL QB, but he will need to learn to operate from the pocket and resist the urge to run for yardage when pressure gets close or pocket collapses. More Russell Wilson using feet extend plays and less Colin Kaepernick running when the pocket breaks down.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue View Post
    Exactly and Vince Young and Kap come to mind. No way Steelers waste a 1 pick on him.
    How often does a true "athletic QB" win the Super Bowl? Russell Wilson maybe? Steve Young in 1994? No thanks. I'll take a big slow white guy with an arm and some "escapability" any day over a guy with amazing speed and athleticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    John Elway's father was a prominent coach and during the draft (and presumably his career) his agent Marvin Demoff helped guide him in the business process of the NFL.
    Eli Manning's father was a prominent former QB and his agent Tom Condon helped guide the business part of Eli Manning's career.

    Both Elway and Manning were prototypical NFL QB's and concensus top picks, with families that have a long standing knowledge of college and NFL football and presumably a great network of people they can lean on for advice. They still chose agents to navigate the process. Lamar Jackson is not the prototypical NFL QB. He threw footballs at the combine that fluttered and some looked like they were launched by a slingshot. His mother Felicia Jones does not appear to have the background in professional or college football to the level of Archie Manning or Jack Elway.

    Felicia Jones involvement with her son's career may end the day he is drafted, or she may continue to arrange his appearances, endorsements, meetings with team management.....I don't know. But to compare Jackson's situation to that of Manning or Elway is comparing Apples to Turnips IMO.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I agree. I think he can be a really good NFL QB, but he will need to learn to operate from the pocket and resist the urge to run for yardage when pressure gets close or pocket collapses. More Russell Wilson using feet extend plays and less Colin Kaepernick running when the pocket breaks down.
    Not really apples to turnips. All three individuals and groups wanted their son/client to land in the best possible spot for them to succeed and were not going to be told or forced by any team or other factor do anything they felt went against that. Just because Lamar's mom is not a former player or coach doesn't mean she can't see BS coming from a mile away. Every request by a team to run a 40, do drills at another position, discuss playing in any NON-Qb role is an attempt to devalue Lamar at his "best" current position and the one that represents his clearest path to high $$$ future earnings. Why should he have to do drills at other positions when lesser QB prospects like Tebow, Geno Smith, and Tyrod Taylor didn't. For all we know, the teams that are being "screened" and having trouble "reaching" Lamar Jackson are the teams that have made the most noise about seeing how he looks at WR or RB. Or maybe they are the teams that have starting QBs and back-ups on the depth chart that would block Jackson's path to playing time. These are all reasons that an actual agent might make his client hard to get a hold of. But since it is the dude's mom, everyone starts getting weird about it.

    Remember this is a league where more than one scout has said they would pass on Rosen because he has a "bad face". The NFL has it's head squarely up its collective hindquarters when trying to parse out QB prospects.

    Jackson seems to run more on called runs than on broken plays. Petrino's offense is notably complex, perhaps even "too" complex - a fact multiple pro coaches acknowledge. Yet Jackson seems to have mastered it. Darnold and Baker Mayfield have dealt with less pro concepts in their offense than Jackson has. His accuracy seems better than Allen's - who may struggle hitting the broad side of a barn on a consistent basis. But, of course, when Allen does hit the barn he is likely going to throw the damn ball 25 yards through the barn. Jackson's footwork is not good and will need work - something the stretch between the Combine and his Pro Day seemed to demonstrate he is aware of and already starting the process of correcting/cleaning up.

    For me, Jackson is the 3rd best QB prospect in the class. I think he will be a far better pro passer than a college one for a variety of reasons. Additionally with the rookie wage scale for initial contracts, I'm not sure there is much need for an agent on that front. Remember, Eli and Elway both still had an opportunity to negotiate mammoth rookie deals.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    How often does a true "athletic QB" win the Super Bowl? Russell Wilson maybe? Steve Young in 1994? No thanks. I'll take a big slow white guy with an arm and some "escapability" any day over a guy with amazing speed and athleticism.
    I can agree with this except for the "big slow white guy" part. Your overall point is valid though. I do not care if a QB can run. PERIOD! I don't want a statue either, but a QB's ability to tuck it and run means nothing to me. What makes a very big difference to me is a QB's accuracy and decision making ability. I put Dobbs, Jackson, and Rudolph in the same category as passers. All can make fantastic downfield bombs, on the move or from the pocket. What they all lack is consistent short to mid-range accuracy. This is why if they were all on the team, Landry Jones would still be Ben's backup. (5 QBs in a single post) In the decision making area, I like Dobbs over Jackson and Rudolph combined. This is not the draft to go QB in the 1st 3 rounds anyway.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    By “Big Slow White Guy”, I Mean Ben Roethlisberger, Brett Favre, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Tony Romo types...lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Tom Brady on Louisville QB Lamar Jackson: 'He's a beast!!!!'

    By Chase Goodbread
    College Football 24/7 writer
    Published: April 12, 2018

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...on-hes-a-beast

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    Tom Brady on Louisville QB Lamar Jackson: 'He's a beast!!!!'

    By Chase Goodbread
    College Football 24/7 writer
    Published: April 12, 2018

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...on-hes-a-beast
    That's Brady's way of saying "Draft LJ so I won't have to worry about someone pushing me out of a job for the next three years."

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiiansteeler View Post
    Tom Brady on Louisville QB Lamar Jackson: 'He's a beast!!!!'

    By Chase Goodbread
    College Football 24/7 writer
    Published: April 12, 2018

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...on-hes-a-beast
    Look what the Pats staff was able to do with Jacoby Brissett. Now, give that same staff a prospect with a similar but far superior set of athletic tools. Imagine what happens next.

    I almost hope that the Pats do draft Jackson and he is amazing. Maybe then the rest of the league and the talking heads will realize there is a new way to evaluate QBs and we can stop ignoring reality.

    But then I realize that could lead to another decade of Pats dominance and I throw up in my mouth a little bit...

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    That's Brady's way of saying "Draft LJ so I won't have to worry about someone pushing me out of a job for the next three years."
    Agree.

    The most real evaluation that I heard on Jackson was...."he draws comparisons to Mike Vick, but lets not forget that Vick was a much better passer when he was drafted than Jackson is now."

    I like Jackson, but he really should be a mid 2nd round grade. Somebody is going to jump up and grab him based upon athleticism and potential. But face it....he isn't even Mike Vick as a passer and may never develop his game to the level of Mike Vick as a passer.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Look what the Pats staff was able to do with Jacoby Brissett. Now, give that same staff a prospect with a similar but far superior set of athletic tools. Imagine what happens next.

    I almost hope that the Pats do draft Jackson and he is amazing. Maybe then the rest of the league and the talking heads will realize there is a new way to evaluate QBs and we can stop ignoring reality.

    But then I realize that could lead to another decade of Pats dominance and I throw up in my mouth a little bit...
    That is my worst case scenario.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Agree.

    The most real evaluation that I heard on Jackson was...."he draws comparisons to Mike Vick, but lets not forget that Vick was a much better passer when he was drafted than Jackson is now."

    I like Jackson, but he really should be a mid 2nd round grade. Somebody is going to jump up and grab him based upon athleticism and potential. But face it....he isn't even Mike Vick as a passer and may never develop his game to the level of Mike Vick as a passer.
    Interestingly... I read an article last week, describing how Jackson is already leaps & bounds ahead of Vick as a passer. (I don’t recall where I read the article... ergo, no link.) It talked about how Lamar played in a more complex system, and that he only ran on designed running plays. Here is one stat that stood out...

    In their final seasons in college:

    Jackson: 281 passing yards/game
    Vick: 123 passing yards/game

    NOTE: Vick's 1999 season was actually better (171 passing yards/game), but that’s still 110 yards less than Jackson.

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Interestingly... I read an article last week, describing how Jackson is already leaps & bounds ahead of Vick as a passer. (I don’t recall where I read the article... ergo, no link.) It talked about how Lamar played in a more complex system, and that he only ran on designed running plays. Here is one stat that stood out...

    In their final seasons in college:

    Jackson: 281 passing yards/game
    Vick: 123 passing yards/game

    NOTE: Vick's 1999 season was actually better (171 passing yards/game), but that’s still 110 yards less than Jackson.
    Below is link to Charley Casserly opinion on Jackson and a Vick comparison.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-networ...-Lamar-Jackson

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    Re: Steelers at Lamar Jackson’s pro day

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Below is link to Charley Casserly opinion on Jackson and a Vick comparison.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-networ...-Lamar-Jackson
    Charlie Casserly is wrong.

    If YOU had broken down the tapes of Jackson and come to that conclusion, I’d listen. (i.e. I value YOUR opinion) But, Charlie Casserly... not so much.

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