The Le'Veon Bell-Steelers showdown, Part II: What you need to know

[Shoes]

I remember Dan Rooney saying this about another #26. "Things change with time, and players don't understand that when they turn down offers.''

[teegre]

I remember Dan Rooney saying this about another #26. "Things change with time, and players don't understand that when they turn down offers.''

As I said elsewhere...

1997 Rod Woodson was not a happy camper.

On draft day, the Steelers drafted Chad Scott AND signed Donnell Woolford.

We could be seeing the same kind of poker hand being played in April...

[Craic]

Fine, deactivate him until he's ready to play; you can dock players a week's pay if they're inactive for "non-performance" reasons. Make it known ahead of time that he's not getting paid until he's actually prepared. We won't miss him; we basically had no Bell for the first 3-4 games anyway last season because he was unprepared and sucked shit.

The problem with that is whenever we do bring him back, there's going to be a 3-4 game ramp up. So, I'd rather have it occur in the first 4 games when other teams are still trying to figure things out. The problem wasn't with Bell's "being ready" to play. Physically, he was absolutely ready. There has never been a problem with Bell's work ethic. The problem is simply getting reps with the first team. Getting into the rhythm that is needed so the line knows what the RB wants and the RB knows how the line is operating. The problem is also getting the mind back to working game speed. Again, none of that can happen off field. So, how long do we keep him out? 4 games? So he's not ready to go until half way through the season? 8 games? So he's not really hitting his stride until December? 10 games? 11?

No, put him in the first play of the first game. Let him get up to speed as quickly as possible, and then Willy Parker him (Run him until the wheels literally fall off—broken fibula if Willy's case).

[DesertSteel]

The problem with that is whenever we do bring him back, there's going to be a 3-4 game ramp up. So, I'd rather have it occur in the first 4 games when other teams are still trying to figure things out. The problem wasn't with Bell's "being ready" to play. Physically, he was absolutely ready. There has never been a problem with Bell's work ethic. The problem is simply getting reps with the first team. Getting into the rhythm that is needed so the line knows what the RB wants and the RB knows how the line is operating. The problem is also getting the mind back to working game speed. Again, none of that can happen off field. So, how long do we keep him out? 4 games? So he's not ready to go until half way through the season? 8 games? So he's not really hitting his stride until December? 10 games? 11?

No, put him in the first play of the first game. Let him get up to speed as quickly as possible, and then Willy Parker him (Run him until the wheels literally fall off—broken fibula if Willy's case).

The question is, is he worth $14M for 12 games? I say no! Draft your RB in R1 or 2. Give the guy the rock in TC and PS and then pull the tag from Bell right before the season starts.

Am I right in my assumption that there's no cap hit for the $14M until he signs the contract?

[teegre]

The question is, is he worth $14M for 12 games? I say no! Draft your RB in R1 or 2. Give the guy the rock in TC and PS and then pull the tag from Bell right before the season starts.

Am I right in my assumption that there's no cap hit for the $14M until he signs the contract?

16 games = $14 million
15 games = $13.125 million
12 games = $10.5 million
6 games = $5.25 million

I mention 6 games, because that is the minimum number of games he has to be signed for, in order to become a free agent in 2019.

But, YES, if the Steelers pull the tag, there is zero cap hit.

[SteelMember]

16 games = $14 million
15 games = $13.125 million
12 games = $10.5 million
6 games = $5.25 million

I mention 6 games, because that is the minimum number of games he has to be signed for, in order to become a free agent in 2019.

But, YES, if the Steelers pull the tag, there is zero cap hit.

But they have to keep that money available in case he does sign at any point... it's not like they can spend it on something else. Not until/unless it's pulled.

I can see this turning into something bad. He finally comes back. First game in... he gets hurt a la Jerome Bettis. May be better to cut ties sooner rather than later. I say draft a RB "somewhere". Earlier would put him on notice as in "we're moving on" regardless of when you make up your mind.

[teegre]

But they have to keep that money available in case he does sign at any point... it's not like they can spend it on something else. Not until/unless it's pulled.

I can see this turning into something bad. He finally comes back. First game in... he gets hurt a la Jerome Bettis. May be better to cut ties sooner rather than later. I say draft a RB "somewhere". Earlier would put him on notice as in "we're moving on" regardless of when you make up your mind.

Let’s skip over the injury part. Bad moxie.

If Bell only plays 6 games/only earns $5.25 million, the extra $9.75 million that was set aside for him will be used for signing bonuses for other players.

For example, let’s say that Tuitt has $30 million left on his contract, but he was only due $6 million this season. Boom!!!... the restructure to pay off and additional $9.75 million.

As in: the money will get used to pay other players (who are already under contract).

[GBMelBlount]

Well he will sign a franchise tag - I am confident about that as well

I assume those individuals also were confident about beating Jacksonville in the playoffs

The opposing side had something to say about that as well

The Steelers thought they had a deal with Bell's agent last summer and Bell blew it up - having been burned before being confident a deal can get done seems overly optimistic

Since IMO Bell is worth less now than he was in 2017 (another year of wear and tear) if the Steelers were not lowballing Bell last summer it makes no sense to raise their offer on a multi year deal unless it is the same or less real $$$ and the Steelers are hoping Bell does not figure that out

Exactly.

We have THE most expensive offense in the NFL and one of the least funded defenses.

https://sportsnaut.com/2017/06/10-mo...-nfl-offenses/

Please get an average running back who will get 3.9 ypc.

Spread the few hundred less yards he gets receiving across one of the best receiving corps in the nfl.

Spend the $10 mil saved per year on defense.

[Mojouw]

Exactly.

We have THE most expensive offense in the NFL and one of the least funded defenses.

https://sportsnaut.com/2017/06/10-mo...-nfl-offenses/

Please get an average running back who will get 3.9 ypc.

Spread the few hundred less yards he gets receiving across one of the best receiving corps in the nfl.

Spend the $10 mil saved per year on defense.

It isn't one of the lowest budgeted defense in the league -- http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/defense/ -- it is right in the middle and roughly 10 million dollars closer to the top than the bottom.

It is a pricey offense -- http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/offense/-- but interestingly it is only $13 million above the exact middle point of the league. So basically right in line with ANY franchise that actually has to pay their starting QB that $20+ million per year contract.

Numbers from that article are over 12 months out of date and do not reflect the increased spending of multiple teams around the league.

[GBMelBlount]

It isn't one of the lowest budgeted defense in the league -- http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/defense/ -- it is right in the middle and roughly 10 million dollars closer to the top than the bottom.

It is a pricey offense -- http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/offense/-- but interestingly it is only $13 million above the exact middle point of the league. So basically right in line with ANY franchise that actually has to pay their starting QB that $20+ million per year contract.

Numbers from that article are over 12 months out of date and do not reflect the increased spending of multiple teams around the league.

Thanks Mojo.

I still want that $10 mil on the defense.

[Mojouw]

Thanks Mojo.

I still want that $10 mil on the defense.

I wouldn't mind -- if they had someone worthwhile to spend it on. I think this is my problem with all the "Cap space" debates each off-season. And to be clear, it is from all NFL talking sources, not just here.

But say that the Steelers got Bell to sign an extension that was at $10 million or under - so like Lesean McCoy's contract or something.

Other than extending existing players -- where on defense would that money go to really "fix" a problem?

They signed the "best" regarded free agent safety on the market. They passed on the "name" guys at ILB. But I do not think that was for money purposes. I do not think there is an 8 million dollar gap between Bostic and say Demario Davis or Avery Williamson. In my opinion, the Steelers were savvy to pass on those guys! The ONLY LB that may have really impacted the defense in a big $$$ way was Bradham and he never really looked beyond resigning with the SB champs.

All the moves on defense keep getting billed as "cap clearing" and sure that did happen -- but none of those guys were worth their contracts anyways. I figure it was more "talent clearing" than anything else.

The most impactful defensive free agents were at CB and DL. Oddly enough too positions I think the Steelers are fairly satisfied with right now. Are they gonna sit Tuitt or Heyward to play Sheldon Richardson, Wilkerson, or Suh? I mean there is no way that Trumaine Johnson would make any roster worse -- but he doesn't really fix what is wrong with the defense.

Honey Badger? I mean they certainly proved me wrong by going with Burnett as a box safety type. But, honestly, I would rather have Burnett than Mathieu.

I'm rambling now...but I just don't see a FA signing that a "cash strapped" Steelers team had to pass on that would have really been a significant improvement on what they were able to do.

[DesertSteel]

16 games = $14 million
15 games = $13.125 million
12 games = $10.5 million
6 games = $5.25 million

I mention 6 games, because that is the minimum number of games he has to be signed for, in order to become a free agent in 2019.

But, YES, if the Steelers pull the tag, there is zero cap hit.

My point on the money is if he plays like crap for 3-4 games to get up to speed, then we are essentially paying him $14M for 13 games.

My Question on the cap is during the period before its signed, not after its pulled. I.e. right now, is the $14M counting against our cap since he hasn’t signed?

[hawaiiansteeler]

My point on the money is if he plays like crap for 3-4 games to get up to speed, then we are essentially paying him $14M for 13 games.

My Question on the cap is during the period before its signed, not after its pulled. I.e. right now, is the $14M counting against our cap since he hasn’t signed?

yes, I believe so since we placed the franchise tag on him.

[Craic]

My point on the money is if he plays like crap for 3-4 games to get up to speed, then we are essentially paying him $14M for 13 games.

My Question on the cap is during the period before its signed, not after its pulled. I.e. right now, is the $14M counting against our cap since he hasn’t signed?

Yes and no. First, he's still eating up carries, and does so with unbelievable ball security. He only lost the ball twice last year with all those carries he had. And, in the passing game, he was a top 10 wide receiver in catches, and fumbled the ball once. That brings up a second point. We're not just getting a running back. We're getting a top ten (statistical) WR as well.

So, unless we have a RB that can step in and fill his shoes as a RB (and no, it's not just about 3.9 ypc, it's about turning -2 yards into +2 yards when the line seriously regressed during the first half of the season) and as a WR, then we need to seriously think twice before flippantly wishing the tag gets pulled. That's exactly why the Rooney's won't do it. They know the value they have in Bell, and they think a Le'Veon Bell that is on his game for 13 games and getting up to speed in the first 3 games is worth every cent of the tag.

[DesertSteel]

Yes and no. First, he's still eating up carries, and does so with unbelievable ball security. He only lost the ball twice last year with all those carries he had. And, in the passing game, he was a top 10 wide receiver in catches, and fumbled the ball once. That brings up a second point. We're not just getting a running back. We're getting a top ten (statistical) WR as well.

So, unless we have a RB that can step in and fill his shoes as a RB (and no, it's not just about 3.9 ypc, it's about turning -2 yards into +2 yards when the line seriously regressed during the first half of the season) and as a WR, then we need to seriously think twice before flippantly wishing the tag gets pulled. That's exactly why the Rooney's won't do it. They know the value they have in Bell, and they think a Le'Veon Bell that is on his game for 13 games and getting up to speed in the first 3 games is worth every cent of the tag.

A few things:

A. Bell is a good back.
B. He did not play like a $12-14M back in the first quarter of the season. Lots of guys making $800K don't fumble.
C. Bell is NOT statistically a top 10 receiver. We might as well say that Matt Forte is the greatest WR of all time. Bell averages 532 receiving yards a year, and last year was down to 7.7 YPR.
D. Back to A. --- Bell is a good back, but his poop stinks too (although he thinks it doesn't)

[Dwinsgames]

Yes and no. First, he's still eating up carries, and does so with unbelievable ball security. He only lost the ball twice last year with all those carries he had. And, in the passing game, he was a top 10 wide receiver in catches, and fumbled the ball once. That brings up a second point. We're not just getting a running back. We're getting a top ten (statistical) WR as well.

So, unless we have a RB that can step in and fill his shoes as a RB (and no, it's not just about 3.9 ypc, it's about turning -2 yards into +2 yards when the line seriously regressed during the first half of the season) and as a WR, then we need to seriously think twice before flippantly wishing the tag gets pulled. That's exactly why the Rooney's won't do it. They know the value they have in Bell, and they think a Le'Veon Bell that is on his game for 13 games and getting up to speed in the first 3 games is worth every cent of the tag.

I believe the WR premise is a very very skewed one ... top 10 WR's do not face linebackers and safety's in coverage week after week , play after play they face the oppositions best Corners for the most part ...

so to try and compare Bell vs a WR is not giving anyone any results that can be even considered close to accurate depictions ....

[Craic]

A few things:

A. Bell is a good back.
B. He did not play like a $12-14M back in the first quarter of the season. Lots of guys making $800K don't fumble.
C. Bell is NOT statistically a top 10 receiver. We might as well say that Matt Forte is the greatest WR of all time. Bell averages 532 receiving yards a year, and last year was down to 7.7 YPR.
D. Back to A. --- Bell is a good back, but his poop stinks too (although he thinks it doesn't)

Except, he IS a top ten wr in catches, which is all I said. As for fumbles, no, there's not that many that touch the ball as much as he does without giving it up. I agree he's not worth what he thinks he's worth. I also think his contributions are being seriously downplayed because people are pissed at him.

[teegre]

I also think his contributions are being seriously downplayed because people are pissed at him.

Amen to that!!!

NFL All-Time yards-from-scrimmage per game average leaders:
1. Le’Veon Bell 128.5
2. Jim Brown 125.5
3. Billy Sims 119.6
4. Barry Sanders 118.9
5. Terrell Davis 113.9

Bell’s yards-from-scrimmage per game average for 2017: 129.7

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Bell is beneficial to Ben's career with his blocking and pass catching. Again not easy to replace!

[Craic]

Amen to that!!!

NFL All-Time yards-from-scrimmage per game average leaders:
1. Le’Veon Bell 128.5
2. Jim Brown 125.5
3. Billy Sims 119.6
4. Barry Sanders 118.9
5. Terrell Davis 113.9

Bell’s yards-from-scrimmage per game average for 2017: 129.7

Huh, that's a very interesting statistic. Didn't realize he actually did that well this year, beating his career average.

Bell is beneficial to Ben's career with his blocking and pass catching. Again not easy to replace!

Again, very true. And that's something else to add. His blocking plus pass-catching plus running = not easily replaced.
-------------

All of that said, personally, I'm finished with him. I don't care if he signs or not. I just realize that if he doesn't, we're losing someone who has gained us a lot of yards from scrimmage.

[Mach1]

Me at this point....

[Mojouw]

From any player's perspective it is all about them.

James Harrison left the first time over money.

Troy retired about money.

Ward held out over money.

AB and Ben have never taken "home town" discounts - but instead maximized their earnings.

Bell is an ass and wildly misunderstands his social media presentation, but to pretend he is somehow any different than 90% or more of the NFL is a bit unfair.

Brady has repeatedly taken a bit of a discount, but I really struggle to think of other "star" players that took less money to help their teams. I can think of players that got strong-armed into it...

...remember this is a league where Joe Flacco took all the cap room and hampered his team's ability to sign other offensive players. Peyton Manning likely has less SB trophies than he could have by insisting on constantly being paid top $$$ and having it be difficult for the Colts to add to their defense.

[Dwinsgames]

From any player's perspective it is all about them.

James Harrison left the first time over money.

Troy retired about money.

Ward held out over money.

AB and Ben have never taken "home town" discounts - but instead maximized their earnings.

Bell is an ass and wildly misunderstands his social media presentation, but to pretend he is somehow any different than 90% or more of the NFL is a bit unfair.

Brady has repeatedly taken a bit of a discount, but I really struggle to think of other "star" players that took less money to help their teams. I can think of players that got strong-armed into it...

...remember this is a league where Joe Flacco took all the cap room and hampered his team's ability to sign other offensive players. Peyton Manning likely has less SB trophies than he could have by insisting on constantly being paid top $$$ and having it be difficult for the Colts to add to their defense.

you lost me on the bold .... none of the people listed demanded double the next highest paid guy and none of them ever turned down highest paid player at their pos $$'s

[Mojouw]

you lost me on the bold .... none of the people listed demanded double the next highest paid guy and none of them ever turned down highest paid player at their pos $$'s

As I have repeatedly said, I no longer agree with Bell's valuation and contractual demands. But to pretend that other players in the NFL do not prioritize themselves over everything else (until you ring chase on your 3rd or later contract) and are not about the $$$ first, second, and third is more than a bit of an overstatement.

I am not attempting to take Bell's side in this nor am I attempting to come down on the Leveon Bell is easily replaceable, not worth a nickel over 8 million per and essentially an evil person.

Like everything in life, the truth is somewhere in the middle and I find that the reactions about Bell get more and more extreme each passing day/week. They are quickly reaching the point where the emotional backlash against Bell's statements and actions is causing some to seriously under estimate his value and contributions on the football field from 2014-2017.

[Dwinsgames]

As I have repeatedly said, I no longer agree with Bell's valuation and contractual demands. But to pretend that other players in the NFL do not prioritize themselves over everything else (until you ring chase on your 3rd or later contract) and are not about the $$$ first, second, and third is more than a bit of an overstatement.

I am not attempting to take Bell's side in this nor am I attempting to come down on the Leveon Bell is easily replaceable, not worth a nickel over 8 million per and essentially an evil person.

Like everything in life, the truth is somewhere in the middle and I find that the reactions about Bell get more and more extreme each passing day/week. They are quickly reaching the point where the emotional backlash against Bell's statements and actions is causing some to seriously under estimate his value and contributions on the football field from 2014-2017.

I know you have said many times you do not agree with his valuation but honestly as much as you say you are not defending it still looks like you are if for no other reason than you continue to beat this drum ...

No I am not taking a shot at you , we have been friends far to long for that to happen over a guy neither of us will ever rub elbows with .

just explaining how it look from this side of the fence ..

I am guilty of being more and more down on him with the passing weeks and days if for no other reason he keeps upping his demands and saying stupid shit , the more he does that the less interest I have in him representing the team ..

not that the powers that be care what I think but they do care what the over all temperature of the fanbase is on someone they are considering investing so much in and seemingly the only thing heating up in the Lev Bell market fanbase wise if the tempers of the fans ( I get it )


cheers bro

[Mojouw]

I know you have said many times you do not agree with his valuation but honestly as much as you say you are not defending it still looks like you are if for no other reason than you continue to beat this drum ...

No I am not taking a shot at you , we have been friends far to long for that to happen over a guy neither of us will ever rub elbows with .

just explaining how it look from this side of the fence ..

I am guilty of being more and more down on him with the passing weeks and days if for no other reason he keeps upping his demands and saying stupid shit , the more he does that the less interest I have in him representing the team ..

not that the powers that be care what I think but they do care what the over all temperature of the fanbase is on someone they are considering investing so much in and seemingly the only thing heating up in the Lev Bell market fanbase wise if the tempers of the fans ( I get it )


cheers bro

I agree with all that!

Mostly I like arguing on the internet and taking the contrary position just to play out the logic on both sides of an issue.

I suspect we will get a pretty dramatic statement on how the Franchise feels in about 3 weeks.

[DesertSteel]

The question at this stage is who has the most leverage (and I mean if both sides were willing to hit low)? In other words, what's the worst either side could do to the other and which of the two is more detrimental to the other?

[43Hitman]

The question at this stage is who has the most leverage (and I mean if both sides were willing to hit low)? In other words, what's the worst either side could do to the other and which of the two is more detrimental to the other?

I would have to say that the Steelers hold all the leverage. Isn't that what the Tag is for? So teams can have a bit of leverage while dealing with big contracts?

[AtlantaDan]

As I said elsewhere...

1997 Rod Woodson was not a happy camper.

On draft day, the Steelers drafted Chad Scott AND signed Donnell Woolford.

We could be seeing the same kind of poker hand being played in April...

Hopefully does not end up like the Woolford signing

If signing Donnell Woolford was a kind of poker hand it was the kind where you push all your chips into the center of the table when you are holding a pair of twos

In the running for worst Steelers free agency signing ever - Cowher ended up moving Carnell Lake to CB in 1997 after watching Woolford butcher the job

[Dwinsgames]

Hopefully does not end up like the Woolford signing

If signing Donnell Woolford was a kind of poker hand it was the kind where you push all your chips into the center of the table when you are holding a pair of twos

In the running for worst Steelers free agency signing ever - Cowher ended up moving Carnell Lake to CB in 1997 after watching Woolford butcher the job

Duce