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Thread: Replacing Bell!

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array title="Bluecoat96 has a reputation beyond repute"> Bluecoat96's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Here are the options the Steelers have to replace Bell and a short commentary on each:

    1. James Conner - a shredded knee late in the year and an almost total inability to pass block. Lack of an off-season and practice time will not help this. Knee is likely not going to be ready for start of the season.
    2. Touissant - a replacement level back at best. Does nothing all that well other than know the playbook.
    3. Ridley - also a replacement level guy with a bucket-load of injuries to carry around. Technically would need resigned.
    4. Draft pick - this seems to be everyone's favorite answer. Yet everyone wants an ILB, a FS, an OLB, and another ILB. Only have so many draft picks. IF Steelers want a solid Bell replacement, it is likely Kerryon Johnson in the 2nd round. If he blows up at the combine, make that the 1st round.
    5. Free Agent - another popular answer. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/running-back/ That's the list. So....Jeremy Hill?

    If we are going to have a conversation, lets at least have a realistic one. Conner's injury really changed the equation. There is no "built in" safety net this season. Also, I don't think Conner is really all that good. I know he is a great story and everyone is rooting for him. But what little time he got on the field demonstrated that he is still a total zero in the passing game. Looks uncomfortable catching the ball and is the kinda pass blocker that gets your QB killed and causes turnovers - both of which happened repeatedly in his rookie year. Could he get better? Sure...but not without practice time...which his injury prevents.
    Not to downplay Conner's injury, but it was "just" an MCL injury. I tried to find someone specifics on his recovery timeline, but was unsuccessful. I have to think that he'll be ready a lot quicker than you think. Could be wrong though. It wouldn't be the first time. Just ask my wife. Lol


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    Senior Member Array title="Shoes has a reputation beyond repute"> Shoes's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Steelers shouldn't pay Le'Veon Bell
    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...iels-best-path

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluecoat96 View Post
    Not to downplay Conner's injury, but it was "just" an MCL injury. I tried to find someone specifics on his recovery timeline, but was unsuccessful. I have to think that he'll be ready a lot quicker than you think. Could be wrong though. It wouldn't be the first time. Just ask my wife. Lol


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    https://www.vivehealth.com/blogs/resources/mcl-tear

    This looks like a fairly good site on the MCL injury itself. Probably fits the Conner conversation.

  4. #34
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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoes View Post
    Steelers shouldn't pay Le'Veon Bell
    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...iels-best-path
    Please let him walk. Don't cripple the team for one player. His demands wouldn't be worth it even if he were still the best back in the league, which he is not any longer.

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Some stats to put a perspective on things:Top5 Rushers of 2017 w/career stats.

    http://www.nfl.com/player/le%27veonb...75/careerstats

    http://www.nfl.com/player/toddgurley...75/careerstats

    http://www.nfl.com/player/kareemhunt...17/careerstats

    http://www.nfl.com/player/leseanmccoy/79607/careerstats

    http://www.nfl.com/player/markingram...66/careerstats

    4 RBs averaged 20+ carries per game in 2017. Here's their yards/carry averages with total attempts on the season:

    LeVeon Bell 4.0 with 321 attempts

    Leonard Fournette 3.9 with 268 attempts

    Ezekial Elliott 4.1 with 242 attempts

    Adrian Peterson 3.5 with 129 attempts

    And the ONLY RB that was targeted in the passing game more than Bell? Christian McCaffrey by 7.

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Here are the options the Steelers have to replace Bell and a short commentary on each:

    1. James Conner - a shredded knee late in the year and an almost total inability to pass block. Lack of an off-season and practice time will not help this. Knee is likely not going to be ready for start of the season.
    2. Touissant - a replacement level back at best. Does nothing all that well other than know the playbook.
    3. Ridley - also a replacement level guy with a bucket-load of injuries to carry around. Technically would need resigned.
    4. Draft pick - this seems to be everyone's favorite answer. Yet everyone wants an ILB, a FS, an OLB, and another ILB. Only have so many draft picks. IF Steelers want a solid Bell replacement, it is likely Kerryon Johnson in the 2nd round. If he blows up at the combine, make that the 1st round.
    5. Free Agent - another popular answer. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/running-back/ That's the list. So....Jeremy Hill?

    If we are going to have a conversation, lets at least have a realistic one. Conner's injury really changed the equation. There is no "built in" safety net this season. Also, I don't think Conner is really all that good. I know he is a great story and everyone is rooting for him. But what little time he got on the field demonstrated that he is still a total zero in the passing game. Looks uncomfortable catching the ball and is the kinda pass blocker that gets your QB killed and causes turnovers - both of which happened repeatedly in his rookie year. Could he get better? Sure...but not without practice time...which his injury prevents.
    Add a little more on the FA market, Jeremy Hill will also be 26 this year. Apples to apples, I still pay Bell.

  7. #37
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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Bell doesn't want a reasonable contract, this is what I'd do.

    Bucky Brooks & Charlie Casserly

    Round 1 Derrius Guice

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/2018/mock-drafts

  8. #38
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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    I'm ready to move on from Bell. I understand what he brings to the table. He is, and has been the most productive RB in the league over the last few seasons, but like others have mentioned, he is on the downside of his career. He looked a step slower last season and lacked explosiveness. The only way I want him back is if we tag him. We could use that money elsewhere, like safety or ILB.

    We won a super bowl with Willie Parker in case you have forgotten. Willie could run fast and that's about all he brought to the table. He couldn't catch a cold, and wasn't great in pass protection, but we managed, and actually won a super bowl. If Bell doesn't take the tag, let him walk and draft his replacememt.

  9. #39

    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoes View Post
    Steelers shouldn't pay Le'Veon Bell
    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...iels-best-path
    That's basically a repeat of what's been said in this thread, and again, it fails to see the point that at Bell's level of production, a decline over the next three years or so will still keep him a 1000+ yard back every year.

    GB -
    As for running behind this line, I think you give it too much credit. There were several times this year the line just about imploded in games. I couldn't find anything else for stats, but this stat at least correlates to a degree:

    Le’Veon Bell is still the gold-standard for the running back position in the NFL. Over the last three seasons, he’s averaging 2.85 yards after contact per attempt, including a ridiculous 3.7 over 69 carries this season. Bell also had just a single fumble over that span, making him one of the most-secure options in the NFL.
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/new...ing-nfl-week-9

    Note, that was the half-way point in the season when Bell had some bad games to start. In fact, they are only in 11th place for yards gained before a Defensive player is within 1 yard of the RB. ON top of all that, I submit there's another reason Bell's numbers are down, and it has nothing to do with Bell.

    EVERYONE and their dog knew that when the Steelers line up in any kind of bunch set close to the line, it's going to be a run. ANYTIME you see a formation where WRs are not fanned out, it is almost guaranteed. If that changes this year, I think we see his average go up by a significant amount.


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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Here are the options the Steelers have to replace Bell and a short commentary on each:

    1. James Conner - a shredded knee late in the year and an almost total inability to pass block. Lack of an off-season and practice time will not help this. Knee is likely not going to be ready for start of the season.
    2. Touissant - a replacement level back at best. Does nothing all that well other than know the playbook.
    3. Ridley - also a replacement level guy with a bucket-load of injuries to carry around. Technically would need resigned.
    4. Draft pick - this seems to be everyone's favorite answer. Yet everyone wants an ILB, a FS, an OLB, and another ILB. Only have so many draft picks. IF Steelers want a solid Bell replacement, it is likely Kerryon Johnson in the 2nd round. If he blows up at the combine, make that the 1st round.
    5. Free Agent - another popular answer. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/running-back/ That's the list. So....Jeremy Hill?

    If we are going to have a conversation, lets at least have a realistic one. Conner's injury really changed the equation. There is no "built in" safety net this season. Also, I don't think Conner is really all that good. I know he is a great story and everyone is rooting for him. But what little time he got on the field demonstrated that he is still a total zero in the passing game. Looks uncomfortable catching the ball and is the kinda pass blocker that gets your QB killed and causes turnovers - both of which happened repeatedly in his rookie year. Could he get better? Sure...but not without practice time...which his injury prevents.
    Could you try to be a little more negative next time? Lol. Should we list all of Bell's shortcomings? Personally, I think Conner has way more upside the you give him credit for.

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Could you try to be a little more negative next time? Lol. Should we list all of Bell's shortcomings? Personally, I think Conner has way more upside the you give him credit for.
    It isn't negative it is realistic. Remember the playoff game that relied on Touissant and some dudes? Ridley's medical chart is expanding at about the same rate as my waistline.

    As to Conner, I honestly didn't see anything from his rookie year that made it seem that he was more than just another guy. He has some burst and he has the mindset to hit the hole hard. Those are good things. But he is just a total detriment at this point on 3rd downs and other obvious passing situations. At least one of the 5 INTS in the first Jax games was directly linked to Conner blowing a blitz pick-up. Few other times he got Ben socked pretty good.

    Now if he could practice, run, and lift at some point before mid-summer then I might change my mind. But I am not certain of his MCL re-hab timeline. But I sure as hell wouldn't go into the draft and camp with my #1 RB option being a guy who can't blitz pick-up, hurt his knee in Week 15, and has 32 NFL rushes to his name confident that I have Bell's production "replaced".

    Can the Steelers field a 1000 yard back not named Leveon Bell in 2018? More than likely. Can they find a guy to replace everything that Bell does? Not likely unless they want to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick at RB instead of LB. That't the choice more than anything else. The cap space can be found - it always can. But don't pay Bell and go after a #1 RB in the draft and you get a 2nd tier ILB prospect and a 3rd tier safety prospect.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Some stats to put a perspective on things:Top5 Rushers of 2017 w/career stats.

    http://www.nfl.com/player/le%27veonb...75/careerstats

    http://www.nfl.com/player/toddgurley...75/careerstats

    http://www.nfl.com/player/kareemhunt...17/careerstats

    http://www.nfl.com/player/leseanmccoy/79607/careerstats

    http://www.nfl.com/player/markingram...66/careerstats

    4 RBs averaged 20+ carries per game in 2017. Here's their yards/carry averages with total attempts on the season:

    LeVeon Bell 4.0 with 321 attempts

    Leonard Fournette 3.9 with 268 attempts

    Ezekial Elliott 4.1 with 242 attempts

    Adrian Peterson 3.5 with 129 attempts

    And the ONLY RB that was targeted in the passing game more than Bell? Christian McCaffrey by 7.
    Pffft. I prefer totally arbitrary benchmarks. Anything less than 4.5 yards per carry is totally useless.

  12. #42
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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    It isn't negative it is realistic. Remember the playoff game that relied on Touissant and some dudes? Ridley's medical chart is expanding at about the same rate as my waistline.

    As to Conner, I honestly didn't see anything from his rookie year that made it seem that he was more than just another guy. He has some burst and he has the mindset to hit the hole hard. Those are good things. But he is just a total detriment at this point on 3rd downs and other obvious passing situations. At least one of the 5 INTS in the first Jax games was directly linked to Conner blowing a blitz pick-up. Few other times he got Ben socked pretty good.

    Now if he could practice, run, and lift at some point before mid-summer then I might change my mind. But I am not certain of his MCL re-hab timeline. But I sure as hell wouldn't go into the draft and camp with my #1 RB option being a guy who can't blitz pick-up, hurt his knee in Week 15, and has 32 NFL rushes to his name confident that I have Bell's production "replaced".

    Can the Steelers field a 1000 yard back not named Leveon Bell in 2018? More than likely. Can they find a guy to replace everything that Bell does? Not likely unless they want to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick at RB instead of LB. That't the choice more than anything else. The cap space can be found - it always can. But don't pay Bell and go after a #1 RB in the draft and you get a 2nd tier ILB prospect and a 3rd tier safety prospect.


    Whats the difference, we have the #1 RB & WR'ers and still come up short, throwing money at offensive players obviously isn't the answer.

  13. #43
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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    It isn't negative it is realistic. Remember the playoff game that relied on Touissant and some dudes? Ridley's medical chart is expanding at about the same rate as my waistline.

    As to Conner, I honestly didn't see anything from his rookie year that made it seem that he was more than just another guy. He has some burst and he has the mindset to hit the hole hard. Those are good things. But he is just a total detriment at this point on 3rd downs and other obvious passing situations. At least one of the 5 INTS in the first Jax games was directly linked to Conner blowing a blitz pick-up. Few other times he got Ben socked pretty good.

    Now if he could practice, run, and lift at some point before mid-summer then I might change my mind. But I am not certain of his MCL re-hab timeline. But I sure as hell wouldn't go into the draft and camp with my #1 RB option being a guy who can't blitz pick-up, hurt his knee in Week 15, and has 32 NFL rushes to his name confident that I have Bell's production "replaced".

    Can the Steelers field a 1000 yard back not named Leveon Bell in 2018? More than likely. Can they find a guy to replace everything that Bell does? Not likely unless they want to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick at RB instead of LB. That't the choice more than anything else. The cap space can be found - it always can. But don't pay Bell and go after a #1 RB in the draft and you get a 2nd tier ILB prospect and a 3rd tier safety prospect.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Pffft. I prefer totally arbitrary benchmarks. Anything less than 4.5 yards per carry is totally useless.
    It's negative when you frame your realistic picture with the downside of every option. I realize you're trying to prove your case to keep Bell. There's just some on the jury who aren't buying Bell at all costs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoes View Post
    [/B]Whats the difference, we have the #1 RB & WR'ers and still come up short, throwing money at offensive players obviously isn't the answer.
    Exactly!

  14. #44
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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Ok. OK. Someone needs to walk me through the logic. Why the hell would a team with SB aspirations and 2 glaring weaknesses (ILB and Safety) open up a 3rd weakness (RB) and then take the resources needed to address one of the first 2 weaknesses (first 3 round draft picks) to address RB? That's what people are basically arguing for.

    Oh, but cap space....won't someone think of the cap space! Whatever. This was my main concern even a handful of weeks ago. But then I remembered that cap space is just a made up # in the NFL! Using calculators found online it seems the Steelers can find over 25 million in cap space if they wanted to where the only starting player being cut is Mike Mitchell. The restructures are to young(ish) stalwarts such as Decastro, Tuitt, and Heyward. Throw in an extension/restructure to the franchise QB and you have all the cap space anyone could every want. So, there goes that problem.

    Also look at the list of FA linebackers in particular. There is no "sideline to sideline good in coverage able to stop the run shoot the gaps and make plays behind the line of scrimmage turnover forcing ILB" available in free agency. Shockingly enough every team wants more than one of those guys on their roster. As a result, they don't hit the open market. If you want an athletic marvel to anchor the middle of the defense, that is your first round draft pick. Full stop. No other option exists.

    Help could be found at safety through the free agent market. But Joyner and Burnett may not even make the open market. Joyner is smaller than Willie Gay. Burnett is only one year younger than Mitchell. Also remember when Mitchell signed he was one of the more heralded FA safeties that year. How'd that work out? Oh, but Tre Boston! Okay. A guy who got some hype early in his career kinda didn't do squat and then had a pretty darn good year in a contract year. You know who else took that EXACT same career path? Mike Mitchell. You know the dude everyone wants to run out of town on a rail.

    You can't have it all. If Leveon Bell is deemed too expensive and not worth the cash then there are consequences for that. There will be no rookie starting safety. Mike Mitchell will likely make the 2018 roster. There may be no amazing ILB drafted, but rather a solid guy with limitations will be brought in to compete with someone from the free agent market. That could all work. Not every position has to be a star. But the conversation has to be couched in terms of trade-offs. Right now, it is just "DRAFT SOME AMAZING GUY IN THE FIRST ROUND!" with no consideration of the fact that most people have that pick slotted in as the starting ILB. Since this isn't 1933, can't be be both.

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    It's negative when you frame your realistic picture with the downside of every option. I realize you're trying to prove your case to keep Bell. There's just some on the jury who aren't buying Bell at all costs.
    I am not trying to prove that Bell should be kept. I am simply trying to prove that "Not Bell" is far from the simplified sunshine and rainbows scenario that seems to be floating around. Not paying Bell, and to be clear I think the Steelers should stick to their guns and only offer Bell a contract that they feel is a reasonable approximation of his value and has terms somewhat in favor of the franchise, has consequences. Those consequences may be good and they may be bad.

    And if we are not winning by throwing money at offensive players, what is the logic in then turning around and drafting a RB in the first round?! Can't have your cake and eat it to guys.

    I fully realize that if the Steelers sign Bell then no other big name/impact free agent is coming to town. From my personal "read" on the free agents available, I'm okay with that because I believe the Steelers can get better players at their "need" positions in the draft.

    But the "don't pay Bell" camp seems to be betting the farm on Conner coming back and being average at worst. And/or spending a top 3 round pick on a RB (that's what it takes). So what position do you NOT want to improve through the draft on defense? ILB, FS/SS, OLB, DT? That's the choice if a #1 RB becomes a draft need. Is NOT having to select a RB and being able to get more playmakers on the defensive side of the ball worth part of Bell's contract $$$? I don't know. It might be.

    Of course, none of this matters because the Steelers will take a guard, a long snapper, and a WR in the first 3 rounds anyways.

  16. #46
    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Add a little more on the FA market, Jeremy Hill will also be 26 this year. Apples to apples, I still pay Bell.
    I would too. I mean the list can be divided up into "old RBs", "minor part of a RB rotation", or "guys that failed to seize the #1 role despite repeated opportunities". I guess some poo-poo platter of Crowell, Mckinnon, Sankey, West, Lacy, Hill, and Hyde could be cobbled together where 2-3 of those guys can be a rotation that approximates a competent NFL backfield.

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    It isn't negative it is realistic. Remember the playoff game that relied on Touissant and some dudes? Ridley's medical chart is expanding at about the same rate as my waistline.

    As to Conner, I honestly didn't see anything from his rookie year that made it seem that he was more than just another guy. He has some burst and he has the mindset to hit the hole hard. Those are good things. But he is just a total detriment at this point on 3rd downs and other obvious passing situations. At least one of the 5 INTS in the first Jax games was directly linked to Conner blowing a blitz pick-up. Few other times he got Ben socked pretty good.

    Now if he could practice, run, and lift at some point before mid-summer then I might change my mind. But I am not certain of his MCL re-hab timeline. But I sure as hell wouldn't go into the draft and camp with my #1 RB option being a guy who can't blitz pick-up, hurt his knee in Week 15, and has 32 NFL rushes to his name confident that I have Bell's production "replaced".

    Can the Steelers field a 1000 yard back not named Leveon Bell in 2018? More than likely. Can they find a guy to replace everything that Bell does? Not likely unless they want to spend a 1st or 2nd round pick at RB instead of LB. That't the choice more than anything else. The cap space can be found - it always can. But don't pay Bell and go after a #1 RB in the draft and you get a 2nd tier ILB prospect and a 3rd tier safety prospect.

    I think you're selling Conner a little short. I don't think we've seen enough of Conner to make a determination. A handful of carries makes it very difficult for a running back to show anything.

    I believe he's a very good runner, and if given the chance, can do much better than the Dwyer, Redman, Toussaint, backups. I'm not saying he's a feature back, but I think he is much better as a runner, has more explosion, and has good upside. The injury will definitely slow him early in the year, and we may not be able to see what he can truly do for a while, but he can run. As you said, he needs to work on his pass protection and his receiving. I believe that will improve because most of that is want. I see this kid as a worker and a player that is willing to work hard to do anything he is asked to do. He will improve those parts of his game IMO. He's never going to be the natural receiver with soft hands that Bell is, but once he gets a better feel for the game at this level, it will come to him on some level.

    We really need to see him get healthy and get more reps. Many thought Bell was nothing special after his rookie season. He has definitely grown since then and I believe Conner will grow as well in his own way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I would too. I mean the list can be divided up into "old RBs", "minor part of a RB rotation", or "guys that failed to seize the #1 role despite repeated opportunities". I guess some poo-poo platter of Crowell, Mckinnon, Sankey, West, Lacy, Hill, and Hyde could be cobbled together where 2-3 of those guys can be a rotation that approximates a competent NFL backfield.

    Do you mean we still have the opportunity to take Lacy over Bell? Woohoo!!!


  18. #48
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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    I think you're selling Conner a little short. I don't think we've seen enough of Conner to make a determination. A handful of carries makes it very difficult for a running back to show anything.

    I believe he's a very good runner, and if given the chance, can do much better than the Dwyer, Redman, Toussaint, backups. I'm not saying he's a feature back, but I think he is much better as a runner, has more explosion, and has good upside. The injury will definitely slow him early in the year, and we may not be able to see what he can truly do for a while, but he can run. As you said, he needs to work on his pass protection and his receiving. I believe that will improve because most of that is want. I see this kid as a worker and a player that is willing to work hard to do anything he is asked to do. He will improve those parts of his game IMO. He's never going to be the natural receiver with soft hands that Bell is, but once he gets a better feel for the game at this level, it will come to him on some level.

    We really need to see him get healthy and get more reps. Many thought Bell was nothing special after his rookie season. He has definitely grown since then and I believe Conner will grow as well in his own way.

    - - - Updated - - -




    Do you mean we still have the opportunity to take Lacy over Bell? Woohoo!!!

    You're most likely correct and Conner isnt as bad as I fear. But would everyone think as positively of him if he wasn't an underdog story and from Pitt?

  19. #49
    Senior Member Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute"> Born2Steel's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    On the RB draft front, I could see offering Bell the 2018 franchise tag. Take Rashaan Evans(Bama) at 28(because we all know that's where he's going), spend our round 2 on a larger RB like Royce Freeman(OR) or Josh Adams(ND), have our Bettis 2.0 to pair with Conner(or replace Conner on the DC). 3rd round is going to get tricky now. All of the top ranked Safeties, DBs, and LBs will be gone by now. Here we take a true blue, dyed in the wool NT, maybe B.J. Hill(NC State). Now the middle of the D is getting a boost twice, and adding in a weapon. No 4th. Two 5th rounders, I'll pick another fundamentally sound ILB with Genard Avery(Mem) or Kenny Young(UCLA) and an OG in Wyatt Teller(VT). Let 6 and 7 play out.

    If something close to this draft scenario happens, release Bell from the tag, cut Mitchell, and offer your ransom to a vet ILB, and SS to come in and start while the pups learn. I do not know the FA names as well as others but I would settle for Gerald Hodges(Saints) and Tre Boston(Chargers).

    I see this option as more of a compromise/retool option. #1 You take away Ben's confidence in his RB and replace with 2 rookies(Conner only has 32 snaps) and this defense just became even more unknown than it is now. But hopefully better. Now, if wishes were indeed horses.

  20. #50
    Senior Member Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute"> pczach's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    You're most likely correct and Conner isnt as bad as I fear. But would everyone think as positively of him if he wasn't an underdog story and from Pitt?

    I can't really speak for everyone else, but I know I liked him as a player before his cancer became the story. I love the story of courage and character as well, but I don't think I'm letting it cloud my judgement of his ability on the field.

  21. #51
    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    On the RB draft front, I could see offering Bell the 2018 franchise tag. Take Rashaan Evans(Bama) at 28(because we all know that's where he's going), spend our round 2 on a larger RB like Royce Freeman(OR) or Josh Adams(ND), have our Bettis 2.0 to pair with Conner(or replace Conner on the DC). 3rd round is going to get tricky now. All of the top ranked Safeties, DBs, and LBs will be gone by now. Here we take a true blue, dyed in the wool NT, maybe B.J. Hill(NC State). Now the middle of the D is getting a boost twice, and adding in a weapon. No 4th. Two 5th rounders, I'll pick another fundamentally sound ILB with Genard Avery(Mem) or Kenny Young(UCLA) and an OG in Wyatt Teller(VT). Let 6 and 7 play out.

    If something close to this draft scenario happens, release Bell from the tag, cut Mitchell, and offer your ransom to a vet ILB, and SS to come in and start while the pups learn. I do not know the FA names as well as others but I would settle for Gerald Hodges(Saints) and Tre Boston(Chargers).

    I see this option as more of a compromise/retool option. #1 You take away Ben's confidence in his RB and replace with 2 rookies(Conner only has 32 snaps) and this defense just became even more unknown than it is now. But hopefully better. Now, if wishes were indeed horses.
    That might work. I would prefer Kerryon Johnson or Jaylen Samuels because of their ability to play a similar role to Bell. Not that Bell is the only way to be a RB in the NFL, but it would potentially "change" less in the offense. One would go at the top of the draft and one would go in the middle.

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    Senior Member Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute"> Born2Steel's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    That might work. I would prefer Kerryon Johnson or Jaylen Samuels because of their ability to play a similar role to Bell. Not that Bell is the only way to be a RB in the NFL, but it would potentially "change" less in the offense. One would go at the top of the draft and one would go in the middle.
    I really like Freeman if we draft a RB. My favorite of course is Ronald Jones, but I expect him to be gone by our 2nd round pick. I would rather not have to draft a RB at all, but if it comes to that, there are some promising RBs in this draft. The main downside, IMO, is I would love to spend those early rounds on more pressing needs, or at least on some uber-athletic beast player for the defense. But as the saying goes, "you can't have everything, where would you put it?".

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    Senior Member Array title="GBMelBlount has a reputation beyond repute"> GBMelBlount's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    This is a GREAT thread with a lot of great posts.
    "With love, with patience, and with Faith
    ....She'll make her way" ~ Natalie Merchant

  24. #54
    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    I really like Freeman if we draft a RB. My favorite of course is Ronald Jones, but I expect him to be gone by our 2nd round pick. I would rather not have to draft a RB at all, but if it comes to that, there are some promising RBs in this draft. The main downside, IMO, is I would love to spend those early rounds on more pressing needs, or at least on some uber-athletic beast player for the defense. But as the saying goes, "you can't have everything, where would you put it?".
    I am putting almost ALL my draft picks on defense if I was in charge. I am hoping for something like the 2016's Falcons draft where Neal, Jones, and Campbell were all taken in the first 4 rounds for the Falcons and played a significant role in a championship defense.

    The biggest downsides to paying Bell are not in 2018 - they are future concerns. As I see them they are of two primary categories - downturn in production and suspension. Franchise can write protections into the deal for both of those, at least from a financial sense. Make that one of the negotiating points with Bell and his camp. You want big money and long-term security? Fine, we need protections from financial disaster. The other major concern, at least as I am reading it is along the lines of "Bell is loudmouthed idiot and why in the world would anyone want to feed his giant ego and pay him more money than anyone else, can you imagine what his social media and mix tape will look like then?" and my answer to that is that almost all these guys are annoying idiots so at least Bell is talented idiot that shows up to play in big games.

    Anyways, no idea who is right or who is wrong - actually don't think there is an "answer" -- I just like arguing on the internet.

  25. #55
    Senior Member Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute"> DesertSteel's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I am not trying to prove that Bell should be kept. I am simply trying to prove that "Not Bell" is far from the simplified sunshine and rainbows scenario that seems to be floating around. Not paying Bell, and to be clear I think the Steelers should stick to their guns and only offer Bell a contract that they feel is a reasonable approximation of his value and has terms somewhat in favor of the franchise, has consequences. Those consequences may be good and they may be bad.

    And if we are not winning by throwing money at offensive players, what is the logic in then turning around and drafting a RB in the first round?! Can't have your cake and eat it to guys.

    I fully realize that if the Steelers sign Bell then no other big name/impact free agent is coming to town. From my personal "read" on the free agents available, I'm okay with that because I believe the Steelers can get better players at their "need" positions in the draft.

    But the "don't pay Bell" camp seems to be betting the farm on Conner coming back and being average at worst. And/or spending a top 3 round pick on a RB (that's what it takes). So what position do you NOT want to improve through the draft on defense? ILB, FS/SS, OLB, DT? That's the choice if a #1 RB becomes a draft need. Is NOT having to select a RB and being able to get more playmakers on the defensive side of the ball worth part of Bell's contract $$$? I don't know. It might be.

    Of course, none of this matters because the Steelers will take a guard, a long snapper, and a WR in the first 3 rounds anyways.
    I've never been on record of taking a RB in the 1st round. I'd go ILB in 1 and RB in 2 or 3 depending what Safety was on the board in the 2nd. The idea with using the 2 or 3 pick to take a RB is that you can then use Bell's money for defense in free agency.

    The whole point is that you can win the Super Bowl several different ways in the NFL. Letting Bell walk would be a loss - but not monumental IMO. There are good backs to be had in the draft and they come on the cheap for 4 years. I won't cry about it if they sign Bell, but I see advantages of tagging him instead or letting him walk if he's going to be a malcontent. It's not like we've won the Super Bowl in the past 5 years WITH him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    You're most likely correct and Conner isnt as bad as I fear. But would everyone think as positively of him if he wasn't an underdog story and from Pitt?
    Do you think that's why the Steelers spent a 3rd round pick on him?

  26. #56
    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Do you think that's why the Steelers spent a 3rd round pick on him?
    Of course not. They think he is going to be good NFL RB.

    I don't see it, but I'm wrong all the time!

  27. #57
    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Also, just so we can all start from the same place -- http://pfref.com/tiny/oBd0W

    That is all of the RBs drafted in the last 5 years. Despite the ability to point to almost any round and point to a "success" or starting RB, the majorityimpact guys are coming off the board in the first 45-65 picks. And the majority of the lower round picks are not seeing any role in the NFL beyond that initial rookie contract.

    So either the Steelers need to be confident in their ability to find a gem in a 4th round or lower player or they should be spending a 2018 first or second round pick on a RB if that rookie is ticketed for a starting role.

    I would rather spend both the first and second round pick on defense. Like, Desert Steel said, more than one way to build a team. No one way is right, but my preference is to avoid drafting a RB.

  28. #58
    Senior Member Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute"> Born2Steel's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I've never been on record of taking a RB in the 1st round. I'd go ILB in 1 and RB in 2 or 3 depending what Safety was on the board in the 2nd. The idea with using the 2 or 3 pick to take a RB is that you can then use Bell's money for defense in free agency.

    The whole point is that you can win the Super Bowl several different ways in the NFL. Letting Bell walk would be a loss - but not monumental IMO. There are good backs to be had in the draft and they come on the cheap for 4 years. I won't cry about it if they sign Bell, but I see advantages of tagging him instead or letting him walk if he's going to be a malcontent. It's not like we've won the Super Bowl in the past 5 years WITH him.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Do you think that's why the Steelers spent a 3rd round pick on him?
    I have to say yes. I think the Steelers put a 3rd/4th round grade on Conner, and since there was a very real chance he was not going to be there in the 4th, they selected him where they did. Which was the 2nd of 2 late 3rd round picks BTW. The analysis for the Conner pick was that he was a perfect match to play WITH Bell. Haley didn't see it that way apparently, guess we shall see what Fichtner thinks. I really do think Conner is a better RB if sharing the backfield with Bell than as the bellcow back himself. Trying to stick with this thread topic though, if Bell is not there, is Conner and Nix going to be the tandem? Because as we sit here today, that is the roster. I keep hearing the RB has been devalued and you get great ones in the later rounds, yet every single draft there are RBs taken in the first round. That's a hell of a lot of value for a team to take you with their 1st pick of the draft. And they are all looking for what we already have, with Bell.

  29. #59
    NFL's Dirtiest Player Array title="86WARD has a reputation beyond repute"> 86WARD's Avatar

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    Replacing Bell!

    Signing Bell is a no brainer. He’s a Top-2 back in the league. He has the perfect skill set to compliment Ben and Brown. Without Bell, Ben’s passing will suffer immensely. Bell bailed Ben out man, many times...more so than a 3rd or 4th round draft pick or Stevan Ridley type of free agent would. He’s someone defenses have to account for...unlike many, many other backs in this league.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

  30. #60
    Senior Member Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute"> DesertSteel's Avatar

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    Re: Replacing Bell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Of course not. They think he is going to be good NFL RB.

    I don't see it, but I'm wrong all the time!
    But that's the kind of stuff that it’s good to be wrong about

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