AFCCG: For Whom Are You Rooting???

[Mojouw]

Wow, just making my point, JH outplayed Dupree IN LIMITED SNAPS compared to full time snaps by Dupree. He literally made more plays in 1/100th the snaps that Dupree made. Make whatever excuses you want, the Coaches here are worse than terrible.

Get out of here with reality.

Apparently wanting Harrison to play limited snaps instead of zero, means that you wanted Harrison to start full time.

Comprehension matters.

Let's grant all that and say that not playing James Harrison 10-15 snaps per game for the entire 2017 regular season and playoffs was a MASSIVE mistake of just staggering proportions that no one can defend or justify.

Even with that, it would not be the thing that torpedoed the Steelers season. That would be the entirely unacceptable and below high level college, let alone NFL, level of play from the the ILB position after Shazier went out. Combine that with the DL seemingly running out of gas over the final stretch of the season and you have a toxic combination against the Jags who are a power run team that lives on screens and crossing routes in the passing game. You know those things that you pay ILBs to defend.

Complaining about James Harrison is like hemorrhaging from a bullet wound to the abdomen and worrying about having a broken arm. I mean it would be great if you never got the broken arm - but that ain't what you need to be focused on at the moment...

[pczach]

Let's grant all that and say that not playing James Harrison 10-15 snaps per game for the entire 2017 regular season and playoffs was a MASSIVE mistake of just staggering proportions that no one can defend or justify.

Even with that, it would not be the thing that torpedoed the Steelers season. That would be the entirely unacceptable and below high level college, let alone NFL, level of play from the the ILB position after Shazier went out. Combine that with the DL seemingly running out of gas over the final stretch of the season and you have a toxic combination against the Jags who are a power run team that lives on screens and crossing routes in the passing game. You know those things that you pay ILBs to defend.

Complaining about James Harrison is like hemorrhaging from a bullet wound to the abdomen and worrying about having a broken arm. I mean it would be great if you never got the broken arm - but that ain't what you need to be focused on at the moment...

None of us said Harrison should be starting. Many of us thought he should play snaps, and should be a pass rush specialist....period.

I wanted him to play enough to get reps and be ready to go, but to be fresh at the end of the year for the playoffs. I said so many times here. With that said, he was not a fit to play every down in this scheme. He isn't athletic enough to start at the position as it is schemed and used with the Steelers.

Then he turns into a huge jackass and a negative force to get out of Pittsburgh.....then goes to New England......and plays the exact role he was supposed to play here......and some fans still think he's a hero.

This isn't that hard to understand.

[Mojouw]

None of us said Harrison should be starting. Many of us thought he should play snaps, and should be a pass rush specialist....period.

I wanted him to play enough to get reps and be ready to go, but to be fresh at the end of the year for the playoffs. I said so many times here. With that said, he was not a fit to play every down in this scheme. He isn't athletic enough to start at the position as it is schemed and used with the Steelers.

Then he turns into a huge jackass and a negative force to get out of Pittsburgh.....then goes to New England......and plays the exact role he was supposed to play here......and some fans still think he's a hero.

This isn't that hard to understand.

Pretty much. And while basically everyone would love to see the OLB play improve - that was a few items down the list of things that ended the season earlier than we all would've liked.

[Steeldude]

How would you know? By your own admission you don't watch non-Steelers games and haven't for somewhere between 2 and 3 decades.

Your posts make a pretty clear argument that you have arrived at your judgement of Dupree through detailed watching of each of his snaps, consideration of the result of those snaps, and an evaluation of his effort and demeanor. All of that has combined to create an evaluation that Dupree is not a quality NFL player and is not likely to ever develop into one. So without watching current 2017-18 James Harrison with the same amount of snap by snap critical analysis - how did you arrive at your judgement?

I mean if all we are doing is reading box scores...

Additionally the linking between Dupree and JH is not really what is being argued anyway. Neither the Patriots or the Steelers had any intention of playing Harrison starter's minutes. Pats have used JH exactly how Steelers claimed they were going to use him in the playoffs as well. That has very little to do with Bud Dupree and everything to do with the fact that no one, including the Pats, wants a 39 year old LB logging big minutes.

That's right, I haven't watched entire games for decades of other teans. But I can still watch plays via the Net, Stat sheet, saw him play limited snaps on the Steelers this year, saw Dupree suck again for another year, watch game highlights, reading articles etc... Harrison has been making plays in very limited snaps. Dupree has pretty much done nothing in an enormous amount of snaps. I'm not saying Harrison is still an awesome OLB, but Dupree has shown nothing to prove he is better than the old man yet. Isn't most of this common sense? You have a very deep hatred for Harrison because he signed with a team rather than remaining unemployed.

Your boy Dupree is a joke and he will remain one. Tomlin let a superior OLB go. They could have used Harrison in the Jags' game. All Tomlin needed to do was play Harrison a few snaps, but he put him 5th on the bench. What was the excuse? Harrison can't literally cover anyone; he can't play special teams and he is completely done. So far Harrison has done pretty good for a guy rounding into football shape after being kept from playing and practice. Also, didn't the stat sheet read Harrison played 7 times on STs? I thought that was impossible? That's ok, the Steelers have Dupree. Haha.

Pats have used JH exactly how Steelers claimed they were going to use him in the playoffs as well

But that was just bull they were feeding Harrison from the start. Belichick played him semsnaps and got results. Tomlin benched him to no-man land and got pretty much nothing from Dupree and the other OLBs deemed better than Harrison by Tomlin.

[Steeldude]

Here are James Harrison's career stats. http://www.nfl.com/player/jamesharri...44/careerstats



It wasn't until he was in his 6th year of professional football before he had more than 3 sacks in a year. He had 4 total sacks in 60 games played in his first 5 years. Funny, I don't remember you commenting how great he was back then or projecting what a great player he would become. I guess we all missed your great eye for talent. I guess he was Jarvis Jones before Jarvis Jones......even though you said you never called him Jarvis Jones in another discussion we had.


Here are Bud Dupree's career stats: http://www.nfl.com/player/buddupree/2552289/careerstats


Dupree has 14.5 sacks in 38 games played in his career. He's a different player than Harrison, with a different body type and different gifts. He has accomplished far more at this stage of his career than Harrison did.....and it's not close.

Why don't you explain to us how great James Harrison was over the first 5 years of his career, and your vision of what a great player he would become.

Was Harrison starting his first year in the NFL? How about his 2nd or 3rd year? Harrison's first starting year was 2007. I wanted Harrison to start earlier, but Porter was kept there. Didn't Dupree start his first year?

I wonder how many Dong sacks Dupree collected. We saw some this year.

I get it, you think Dupree is the better OLB. I think Harrison is better. We get to see Jarvis Jones 2.0 again next year.

Let's compare starting years. You know, when they were actually given substantial playing time.

[Mojouw]

That's right, I haven't watched entire games for decades of other teans. But I can still watch plays via the Net, Stat sheet, saw him play limited snaps on the Steelers this year, saw Dupree suck again for another year, watch game highlights, reading articles etc... Harrison has been making plays in very limited snaps. Dupree has pretty much done nothing in an enormous amount of snaps. I'm not saying Harrison is still an awesome OLB, but Dupree has shown nothing to prove he is better than the old man yet. Isn't most of this common sense? You have a very deep hatred for Harrison because he signed with a team rather than remaining unemployed.

Your boy Dupree is a joke and he will remain one. Tomlin let a superior OLB go. They could have used Harrison in the Jags' game. All Tomlin needed to do was play Harrison a few snaps, but he put him 5th on the bench. What was the excuse? Harrison can't literally cover anyone; he can't play special teams and he is completely done. So far Harrison has done pretty good for a guy rounding into football shape after being kept from playing and practice. Also, didn't the stat sheet read Harrison played 7 times on STs? I thought that was impossible? That's ok, the Steelers have Dupree. Haha.



But that was just bull they were feeding Harrison from the start. Belichick played him semsnaps and got results. Tomlin benched him to no-man land and got pretty much nothing from Dupree and the other OLBs deemed better than Harrison by Tomlin.

I love the assumptions you make about my motivations. I couldn't care less about the decisions or actions of individual NFL players - it is all just laundry anyway.

What I do care about is realistic sets of expectations with which to judge players and team decisions.

Through his first 5 years with the team, Harrison started 24 games and 12.5 sacks with 8.5 of those sacks coming in 16 starts in his break-out 2007 campaign which came after 6 years in the league with not much production to write home about.

Through his first 24 starts, Dupree has 14.5 sacks across 3 seasons. If he were to post 8-10 sacks in 2018, Dupree would be ahead of Harrison's developmental arc as a pass rusher in terms of age.

Where Dupree falls almost totally flat compared to Harrison is tackle stats. It isn't even close. Like not in the same galaxy. That brings us back to scheme and assignments, which is an interesting question and one that would be cool to know more about in terms of Steelers OLB expectations/role in 2007 compared to a decade later in 2017. But that is kinda beyond out ability to work out as fans sitting on our couches and computers.

Here is all the edge rushers drafted between 2014 and 2017 - https://www.pro-football-reference.c...der_by=default

Since I suspect you won't read it, it says that only 4-5 drafted LBs have more sacks in that time period than Dupree does. All in all, the data we have says that Dupree is not quite a "bust" but he is not the game in and game out impact player a franchise hopes for when they spend a #1 draft pick on a pass rusher.

Here is the funny thing, I actually basically agree with you. Dupree is not as good as even his meager sack #'s would indicate. He is "meh" at best against the run and he disappears for stretches at a time. But they way you offer your opinion as incontrovertible fact and offer next to nothing to back-up at that opinion is essentially useless to interesting discussion and debate.

[teegre]

Here is the funny thing, I actually basically agree with you.

...

But they way you offer your opinion as incontrovertible fact and offer next to nothing to back-up at that opinion is essentially useless to interesting discussion and debate.

Bravo!!! Those two lines essentially wrap every “debate” anyone has had with him for the past 22 years.

(22... because, you know, that’s when Kordell was drafted.)

[pczach]

Was Harrison starting his first year in the NFL? How about his 2nd or 3rd year? Harrison's first starting year was 2007. I wanted Harrison to start earlier, but Porter was kept there. Didn't Dupree start his first year?

I wonder how many Dong sacks Dupree collected. We saw some this year.

I get it, you think Dupree is the better OLB. I think Harrison is better. We get to see Jarvis Jones 2.0 again next year.

Let's compare starting years. You know, when they were actually given substantial playing time.

The whole point is that Harrison wasn't able to start until his 6th year out of college, and didn't even make a roster one year. He wasn't some beast sitting on the bench that should have been put in the game. He was barely making rosters.

You wanted him to start ahead of Porter earlier in his career? OK, sure. When was that, in 2003 when he wasn't on a roster? What was this amazing revelation based on? I'd love to know what you saw in him. Maybe you wanted Porter out of there when he was leading the defense to a Super Bowl in 2005?

Some of the stuff you say is just ridiculous.

Bud Dupree has only played a few years. He still has time to improve. Harrison took a lot of time to develop. He wasn't ready for years. He credits LeBeau for sticking with him and working with him for years until he finally "got" it.

How do the most simple points continue to elude you? I'm not trying to trick you. I'm simply showing you that Harrison was not a good player for a long time before he figured it out.

Bud Dupree is not a great player. At least not at this time. Nobody is saying that he is.

You continue to say Harrison is better than Dupree. He may be as a pure pass rusher, but he isn't as an overall player because he couldn't physically do what was required to play the position at a high level here. We keep going round and round over the same points. Harrison isn't good enough to play a ton of snaps in New England either. He's basically a designated pass rusher late in games just like he was supposed to be here. Why do you think that is? They have a worse pass rush than the Steelers.

[Steeldude]

I love the assumptions you make about my motivations. I couldn't care less about the decisions or actions of individual NFL players - it is all just laundry anyway.

What I do care about is realistic sets of expectations with which to judge players and team decisions.

Through his first 5 years with the team, Harrison started 24 games and 12.5 sacks with 8.5 of those sacks coming in 16 starts in his break-out 2007 campaign which came after 6 years in the league with not much production to write home about.

Through his first 24 starts, Dupree has 14.5 sacks across 3 seasons. If he were to post 8-10 sacks in 2018, Dupree would be ahead of Harrison's developmental arc as a pass rusher in terms of age.

Where Dupree falls almost totally flat compared to Harrison is tackle stats. It isn't even close. Like not in the same galaxy. That brings us back to scheme and assignments, which is an interesting question and one that would be cool to know more about in terms of Steelers OLB expectations/role in 2007 compared to a decade later in 2017. But that is kinda beyond out ability to work out as fans sitting on our couches and computers.

Here is all the edge rushers drafted between 2014 and 2017 - https://www.pro-football-reference.c...der_by=default

Since I suspect you won't read it, it says that only 4-5 drafted LBs have more sacks in that time period than Dupree does. All in all, the data we have says that Dupree is not quite a "bust" but he is not the game in and game out impact player a franchise hopes for when they spend a #1 draft pick on a pass rusher.

Here is the funny thing, I actually basically agree with you. Dupree is not as good as even his meager sack #'s would indicate. He is "meh" at best against the run and he disappears for stretches at a time. But they way you offer your opinion as incontrovertible fact and offer next to nothing to back-up at that opinion is essentially useless to interesting discussion and debate.

You make assumptions about me. You are being a little hypocritical.

A player can't produce if he isn't on the field. I have seen Dupree's sacks. Steelersdepot did a piece on his sacks this season. Every single one he was barely touched or not touched at all. A couple may be due to Dupree's speed off the line, but it makes you wonder. Can Dupree get a sack when contact is made?

I never said or implied my opinion on Dupree is fact.

Dupree's play on the field backs my opinion. He is a dud so far. I don't see him being better than Chickillo at this point. If the Steelers want mediocrity at LOLB then they have many cheaper players to choose from that will give them the same results. I'm sure Chickillo can come up with 40 tackles and 6 sacks in a full year of starting.

The Steelers need to start looking for a LOLB again in this year's upcoming draft.

[Born2Steel]

You make assumptions about me. You are being a little hypocritical.

A player can't produce if he isn't on the field. I have seen Dupree's sacks. Steelersdepot did a piece on his sacks this season. Every single one he was barely touched or not touched at all. A couple may be due to Dupree's speed off the line, but it makes you wonder. Can Dupree get a sack when contact is made?

I never said or implied my opinion on Dupree is fact.

Dupree's play on the field backs my opinion. He is a dud so far. I don't see him being better than Chickillo at this point. If the Steelers want mediocrity at LOLB then they have many cheaper players to choose from that will give them the same results. I'm sure Chickillo can come up with 40 tackles and 6 sacks in a full year of starting.

The Steelers need to start looking for a LOLB again in this year's upcoming draft.

Wow! That was actually a good post. Look at you using your words and full thought out sentences.

[Steeldude]

The whole point is that Harrison wasn't able to start until his 6th year out of college, and didn't even make a roster one year. He wasn't some beast sitting on the bench that should have been put in the game. He was barely making rosters.

You wanted him to start ahead of Porter earlier in his career? OK, sure. When was that, in 2003 when he wasn't on a roster? What was this amazing revelation based on? I'd love to know what you saw in him. Maybe you wanted Porter out of there when he was leading the defense to a Super Bowl in 2005?

Some of the stuff you say is just ridiculous.

Bud Dupree has only played a few years. He still has time to improve. Harrison took a lot of time to develop. He wasn't ready for years. He credits LeBeau for sticking with him and working with him for years until he finally "got" it.

How do the most simple points continue to elude you? I'm not trying to trick you. I'm simply showing you that Harrison was not a good player for a long time before he figured it out.

Bud Dupree is not a great player. At least not at this time. Nobody is saying that he is.

You continue to say Harrison is better than Dupree. He may be as a pure pass rusher, but he isn't as an overall player because he couldn't physically do what was required to play the position at a high level here. We keep going round and round over the same points. Harrison isn't good enough to play a ton of snaps in New England either. He's basically a designated pass rusher late in games just like he was supposed to be here. Why do you think that is? They have a worse pass rush than the Steelers.

Wasn't able or wasn't given a starting job? If Harrison was a first round pick don't you think he would have been given a shot early on?

I wanted Harrison to start during Porter's last year.

He may be as a pure pass rusher, but he isn't as an overall player because he couldn't physically do what was required to play the position at a high level here

Dupree hasn't been shown to do it either. I don't recall Dupree ever being a force against the run or in coverage. He has looked rather pedestrian at best. Wasn't Harrison ranked as one of the better LBs on coverage in 2016? Also, there is no proof that Harrison can't drop into coverage or play STs. He is playing STs on the Patriots and in coverage. Could he do it for an entire game? No one knows for sure.

What exactly do you think Dupree has shown to be better at then Harrison?

Harrison isn't good enough to play a ton of snaps in New England either.

Harrison is new to the defense. It's also a 4-3 defense I believe. Yes, he is on the wrong side of 40, but I would have played him when he was on the Steelers. I would have had him on on 50% of the plays. I wouldn't have fed him bull and let him rot on the bench in favor of Dupree's lackluster performances. Tomlin messed up. It's going to be another year of Dupree doing pretty much nothing again. Then people will make excuses for him and say he has a sore shoulder etc... Well if he is hurt then I guess he can't play at a high level. He should then be moved to 5th string and kept out of practice.

[Mojouw]

You make assumptions about me. You are being a little hypocritical.

A player can't produce if he isn't on the field. I have seen Dupree's sacks. Steelersdepot did a piece on his sacks this season. Every single one he was barely touched or not touched at all. A couple may be due to Dupree's speed off the line, but it makes you wonder. Can Dupree get a sack when contact is made?

I never said or implied my opinion on Dupree is fact.

Dupree's play on the field backs my opinion. He is a dud so far. I don't see him being better than Chickillo at this point. If the Steelers want mediocrity at LOLB then they have many cheaper players to choose from that will give them the same results. I'm sure Chickillo can come up with 40 tackles and 6 sacks in a full year of starting.

The Steelers need to start looking for a LOLB again in this year's upcoming draft.

I haven't made a single assumption about anything you have posted. I have consistently only attempted to hold you to statements you have freely made based on my understanding of your postings. You're the one who lobbed out that I was nursing some deep personal hatred for James Harrison. I couldn't give a crap about any player in the NFL outside of their roles between the lines on Sundays. Once they are off the roster of the team I root for - couldn't care. I have no emotional investment in any of this.

I agree that Dupree is somewhat of a "dud" so far but have presented numerous data points that indicate there are several recent outcomes where Dupree is salvaged as a pass rusher.

I also agree that multiple OLBs should be sought this off-season. Starters and depth are still in question across the board.

I disagree that Chickillo would be any good in a starting role. I think he would be almost totally overmatched as an NFL starter in every component of the game.

[Steeldude]

I haven't made a single assumption about anything you have posted. I have consistently only attempted to hold you to statements you have freely made based on my understanding of your postings. You're the one who lobbed out that I was nursing some deep personal hatred for James Harrison. I couldn't give a crap about any player in the NFL outside of their roles between the lines on Sundays. Once they are off the roster of the team I root for - couldn't care. I have no emotional investment in any of this.

I agree that Dupree is somewhat of a "dud" so far but have presented numerous data points that indicate there are several recent outcomes where Dupree is salvaged as a pass rusher.

I also agree that multiple OLBs should be sought this off-season. Starters and depth are still in question across the board.

I disagree that Chickillo would be any good in a starting role. I think he would be almost totally overmatched as an NFL starter in every component of the game.

Really? You assumed my wanting to keep Harrison had to with liking him on a personal level. I merely stated you did the same with Dupree and Harrison. My thoughts on Harrison had to with him being a player who can still contribute and is more valuable than Dupree.

Chickillo started two games and did ok. I don't see anything from Dupree that can't be done by Chickillo or a barely average OLB.

[Mojouw]

Really? You assumed my wanting to keep Harrison had to with liking him on a personal level. I merely stated you did the same with Dupree and Harrison. My thoughts on Harrison had to with him being a player who can still contribute and is more valuable than Dupree.

Chickillo started two games and did ok. I don't see anything from Dupree that can't be done by Chickillo or a barely average OLB.

Never made a comment on your personal feelings for James Harrison one way or the other in this thread. If you took something I said that way...not much I can do about that.

But this moves us far afield of the point. Chickillo stinks at making plays behind the line, he is a stiff athlete in space, and I do not think that he is strong enough to hold up over a full season schedule.

Dupree, as flawed as he may be, is the best overall choice on the roster.

Again, I think our definition of "average OLB" is not the same. It isn't that I think Dupree is really all that good or productive, I simply think that folks are wildly overestimating what "NFL AVERAGE OLB" really looks like. This is league that regularly employs Frank Zombo, Sam Acho, Barkevius Mingo, and several teams were seriously considering giving Dion Jordan a 19th chance to fall flat on his face.

Basically, I have little interest in advocating for Dupree as much as I have a ton of interest in advocating against "random OLB" who everyone seems to assume can walk in off the street, play fro $4.5 million a season, cover TEs, hold the point of attack, rush the passer, and whatever else they are asked to do to the tune of 50 tackles, 9 sacks (non Dong variety), and a few pass break-ups for good measure. I mean if you all know where these guys are hiding - you need to quit your current job or jobs and immediately join the front office of a pro football team.

"Random OLB" and "Draft Pick" are enticing and at least 2 of them need brought in this off-season cycle, but I'm not expecting much.

[teegre]

Yadda-yadda-yadda... I still say that I’m rooting for the Jaguars.

[Born2Steel]

Yadda-yadda-yadda... I still say that I’m rooting for the Jaguars.

SKOL VIKES!!!!!

[st33lersguy]

Hopefully the Jackassville Jaguars go back to being irrelevant for the next decade starting next year and their shit-talking classless players and fans shut the hell up. Trust me, if these shit-talkers win a Super Bowl, the already annoying fanbase they have now will only get more insufferable when they draw in most of the current Cheatriots and Bitch Pigeons fanbase which will only be made worse with guys like Jalen Ramsey and Telvin Smith blathering about how they are the best all offseason. There's a chance they go back to and remain irrelevant as long as they don't find a QB better than Bortles and considering their defense was shown to be vulnerable by the end of last year (i.e. 42 points against Pittsburgh, 44 against the 49ers, 27 against Blaine f-ing Gabbert). Unfortunately with how putrid the AFC is, they may be able to skate to an AFC Championship as well

[tube517]

Yadda-yadda-yadda... I still say that I’m rooting for the Jaguars.

Geaux Saints dammit! Who Dat?