Report: Le’Veon Bell Showed Up Late To Jaguars Game, Missed Nearly All Of Saturday’s Walkthrough

[Mojouw]

Regarding the "off the field" stuff to be counterproductive does not mean "everyone" is going "straight to" it as the sole reason for the loss.

If you want to frame your argument by building up that straw man and ignore posts by me on matters such as Hargrave getting limited snaps that was apparently due to injury appearing to be a factor in the defensive line being dominated by the Jags and the defense being unable to recover from the loss of the player around which it was built, Ryan Shazier, go for it. It is possible to attribute both on and off the field factors as contributing to a loss without being strange, although you may disagree.

Should have been far clearer. I was not ignoring your numerous posts on the issues you pointed out. Nor was I attempting to argue that "everyone" was solely pointing to off the field issues.

BUT. BUT...look through the threads on this board in the past two weeks or so AND despite this being a broad brush description --- there is a great deal of fuming and venting (???) regarding how the locker room issues (of which there may be far fewer than early reports speculated about) and terrible coaching decisions are holding back a juggernaut of a roster that should be beating teams left, right, and center while collecting multiple Lombardi trophies.

While it is not my intention to lump everyone into this category nor say that these types of issues play no role in on- the field results; it is my intention to resist every discussion regarding the 2017 and 2018 Steelers to simply devolve into a repetitive and reductive argument about entitled players, unfocused something or other, and how poorly coached a 13-3 NFL team is.

For me, the off the field stuff is not really interesting or useful to talk about. There is simply far too much we don't know. But on the field stuff is far easier for me to quantify and analyze from my lofty perch as an NFL fan sitting in front of a computer and furiously typing out messages that only I care about . I would rather spend pages and pages of posts talking about who missed a block, what the Jags did that stymied the pass rush, etc rather than a series of debates where opinions are traded as facts and emotion trumps reason. Again, doesn't make me right and it doesn't make me insightful -- it is just my bias.

[Craic]

So that would be a different type of tag than he has last year? Because he didn't entertain offers last year. If that's the case, I can see your point.

13-3, 10-6, 9-7, 12-4......... really no difference if you're going one-and-done when it matters.

I doubt it's a different tag as it's the normal tag offered. The difference is the fact that it's a new off-season, and things like salary cap change every year. But, even more than that, it's the tag that gives the Steelers the best options going forward. If we give him the exclusive franchise tag, we have to pay him even more. If we give him the transition tag, then we only get a right of first refusal, but nothing if we do refuse. I fail to see why we shouldn't leverage the best situation dealing with a RB that still projects to be a top 5 back in the league next year. And, 2 first round picks or having that back play for you one more year seems to be the best scenario. Of course, he can choose to retire, but that denies the rest of the league a top 5 back, which also works to our benefit.

Heh, no, I just still think of him as the standard for overrated running that becomes ineffective when you take away his support. Although I have to admit I did think of you when I posted that. (I don't think Bell is even in the same ballpark as Willie Parker, by the way, he's 100x better - but I do see that a critical element of his game could get knocked out from under him with a bad line. Whereas Parker mostly just piled up stats against shitty opponents.)

On your main point - yeah, everyone in the league is a competitor who wants to be the best; you probably wouldn't make it this far if you weren't. But there is a fine line between that being a good thing because motivating yourself to play well helps the team, and a bad thing because putting yourself first gets in the way of the team.

I don't doubt Bell gives anything less than 100% on game day, but things like the idiot training camp holdout - that meant that his 100% was only as good as 50% if he was prepared, so the result was just as bad as half-assing it.

I disagree about piling up stats against bad opponents. However, I think I understand your argument. If I might rephrase it, would you agree with this: The problem with Willie P. was that he was a 1-tool RB. He was fast. When that speed was shut down due to a bad line, injury, age, etc, there was nothing special about him at all. On the other hand, Bell is at least a 4-tool RB. He can make people miss; he can run over people; he is very quick (short bursts of speed); and he is a very good WR as well. If so, then I don't think Willie P. was overrated. Everyone knew he was a 1-tool RB. I think what might have been overrated was the importance of that tool for a RB. Does that make sense?

Now, as for Bell, the difference is that if the O line breaks down, he can still be used as a WR. Moreover, we've seen him make people miss in the backfield several times, and even when he doesn't, he seems to always fall forward.

[steelreserve]

I disagree about piling up stats against bad opponents. However, I think I understand your argument. If I might rephrase it, would you agree with this: The problem with Willie P. was that he was a 1-tool RB. He was fast. When that speed was shut down due to a bad line, injury, age, etc, there was nothing special about him at all. On the other hand, Bell is at least a 4-tool RB. He can make people miss; he can run over people; he is very quick (short bursts of speed); and he is a very good WR as well. If so, then I don't think Willie P. was overrated. Everyone knew he was a 1-tool RB. I think what might have been overrated was the importance of that tool for a RB. Does that make sense?

Now, as for Bell, the difference is that if the O line breaks down, he can still be used as a WR. Moreover, we've seen him make people miss in the backfield several times, and even when he doesn't, he seems to always fall forward.

That's what makes him a much better running back than Parker.

I don't think Bell would get totally shut down playing for a worse team, but I could definitely see a situation where a lot of those 8- and 9-yard runs that he seemingly materializes out of nothing now turn into 1-yard losses even though he's driving forward (preventing a 3-yard loss). Then you've got a 3.8 YPC average and a quarterback who sucks and doesn't know how to check down, and suddenly people are wondering if Bell is done. Then he gets picked up by a decent team on a low-risk deal and they find out no, he's not done, in fact he's still not bad at all. Of course, unless some injury derails the whole thing.

Basically that's where I see his career going if he doesn't sign a long-term deal here in the offseason. Which is encouraging to hear there is progress on, by the way - I had that situation pegged as just about hopeless based on the last go-around.

[86WARD]

Lol.

So basically Bouchette again...stretching to get Readers...

[Craic]

That's what makes him a much better running back than Parker.

I don't think Bell would get totally shut down playing for a worse team, but I could definitely see a situation where a lot of those 8- and 9-yard runs that he seemingly materializes out of nothing now turn into 1-yard losses even though he's driving forward (preventing a 3-yard loss). Then you've got a 3.8 YPC average and a quarterback who sucks and doesn't know how to check down, and suddenly people are wondering if Bell is done. Then he gets picked up by a decent team on a low-risk deal and they find out no, he's not done, in fact he's still not bad at all. Of course, unless some injury derails the whole thing.

Basically that's where I see his career going if he doesn't sign a long-term deal here in the offseason. Which is encouraging to hear there is progress on, by the way - I had that situation pegged as just about hopeless based on the last go-around.

Agreed on Bell, both being better and on progress. To be honest, I'd love to have a Willie P. on the roster right now as a counter to Bell. Could you imagine that? Bell comes out and makes defenses wait and wait and wait before he hits the hole. Then, a fastback comes in and zoom, he's gone before the LB even remembers he has to hit the hole to stuff the faster back. All-in-all, I think the problem with Parker was that he should never have been the primary back. He should have been the change-up back that comes and breaks games open after defenses were worn down by the bigger backs.

And, on that note, that's my single complaint about Bell's toolset. He is quick, but he does not have break-away speed. He almost always gets chased down from behind.

[AtlantaDan]

Gerry Dulac of the P-G definitely not on Team Le'Veon in yesterday's P-G chat

Would you pick the over or under for a 10 win season with Bell playing.
Gerry Dulac: With or without....

to me, the Steelers could find several RBs in the draft who they could plug in that offense and behind that line and still win 13 games....

I wouldn't sign him, and I think they are starting to lean in that direction. I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't franchise him, given his suspensions, camp holdout (which will happen again) and social-media nonsense. In fact, I'd be in favor of it...

Are the headaches the LeVeon Bell brings (holdout, contract demands, skipping meeting before playoff game) worth franchising him again or let him walk/draft a RB?
Gerry Dulac: Nope...

I've read and heard more than a few reasons why the Steelers should NOT offer Le'Veon a high salary long-term deal, but could you offer reasons why the Steelers SHOULD?
Gerry Dulac: Nope.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201801240098

[DesertSteel]

Gerry Dulac of the P-G definitely not on Team Le'Veon in yesterday's P-G chat

Would you pick the over or under for a 10 win season with Bell playing.
Gerry Dulac: With or without....

to me, the Steelers could find several RBs in the draft who they could plug in that offense and behind that line and still win 13 games....

I wouldn't sign him, and I think they are starting to lean in that direction. I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't franchise him, given his suspensions, camp holdout (which will happen again) and social-media nonsense. In fact, I'd be in favor of it...

Are the headaches the LeVeon Bell brings (holdout, contract demands, skipping meeting before playoff game) worth franchising him again or let him walk/draft a RB?
Gerry Dulac: Nope...

I've read and heard more than a few reasons why the Steelers should NOT offer Le'Veon a high salary long-term deal, but could you offer reasons why the Steelers SHOULD?
Gerry Dulac: Nope.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201801240098

I'm in Dulac's camp. Take a new workhorse in R2 and pair him with Conner. Use that $ elsewhere. Bell is a nice weapon in that he's versatile, but he's replaceable on the cheap.

[Mojouw]

Gerry Dulac of the P-G definitely not on Team Le'Veon in yesterday's P-G chat

Would you pick the over or under for a 10 win season with Bell playing.
Gerry Dulac: With or without....

to me, the Steelers could find several RBs in the draft who they could plug in that offense and behind that line and still win 13 games....

I wouldn't sign him, and I think they are starting to lean in that direction. I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't franchise him, given his suspensions, camp holdout (which will happen again) and social-media nonsense. In fact, I'd be in favor of it...

Are the headaches the LeVeon Bell brings (holdout, contract demands, skipping meeting before playoff game) worth franchising him again or let him walk/draft a RB?
Gerry Dulac: Nope...

I've read and heard more than a few reasons why the Steelers should NOT offer Le'Veon a high salary long-term deal, but could you offer reasons why the Steelers SHOULD?
Gerry Dulac: Nope.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201801240098

Rashard Mendenhall
Jonathan Dwyer
Redman

Those are some points against what Dulac is arguing for. Again, I have long believed RB is the most replaceable position on a roster. But I am starting to believe that maybe that is the case if all you are looking for is "average" acceptable production. If you want "high-end" you gots to pay. However, whether or not Bell is or will continue to represent that "high-end" is an open question.

I will say this to Dulac and others making a similar argument. "Draft Pick" is a tricky guy. I hear a ton about him every off-season. I hear about how amazing and super NFL ready "Draft Pick" is and how he can help my team get over the hump. Sometimes that is all true and "Draft Pick" shows up and does Juju things or Alvin Kamara things. Other times, "Draft Pick" shows up and does Jarvis Jones things or Marlon Mack things (yeah - remember that draft darling at RB that couldn't leapfrog Old Man River - I mean Frank Gore).

"Draft Pick" is not a sure thing. He can make you look like a genius and he can get you fired.

[steelreserve]

Rashard Mendenhall
Jonathan Dwyer
Redman

Those are some points against what Dulac is arguing for. Again, I have long believed RB is the most replaceable position on a roster. But I am starting to believe that maybe that is the case if all you are looking for is "average" acceptable production. If you want "high-end" you gots to pay. However, whether or not Bell is or will continue to represent that "high-end" is an open question.

I think our odds of replacing Bell completely are extremely low. The question is whether what we get instead would be "good enough."

Dwyer and Redman - or Touissant - to me represent what you would get if you just threw in a replacement-level street free agent or late-round draft pick behind a mediocre line (Mendenhall being slightly better, but not worth a #1 pick obviously). This is probably also about what you would get if you, say, handed the starting job to Conner or Low Draft Pick and left it at that. With our current line coached by Munchak, I feel like we would do a bit better - you could probably expect something like 1,100 yards out of Conner or Draft Pick, but probably not much in the way of receiving yards, fewer impact plays, and who knows if they could block.

Would that be good enough? I'd say yes, but barely, and only if the other parts of the offense were humming along perfectly. For example, if we had a full year's top production out of a healthy McDonald at the TE position. I wouldn't feel good about going into the season that way voluntarily - kind of like going in with James as our primary TE, it would be a thin position.

Either way, I think we ought to be looking to add a RB who *might* be the future guy even if Bell sticks around. Because even if he signs a long-term deal, the clock is ticking on him, and it's about 50-50 odds we'll need another guy anyway in a couple years.

tl;dr - try to keep Bell for reasonable money, but in either case add someone who is not a trash-tier street free agent or just a throwaway draft pick.

[DesertSteel]

Rashard Mendenhall
Jonathan Dwyer
Redman

Those are some points against what Dulac is arguing for. Again, I have long believed RB is the most replaceable position on a roster. But I am starting to believe that maybe that is the case if all you are looking for is "average" acceptable production. If you want "high-end" you gots to pay. However, whether or not Bell is or will continue to represent that "high-end" is an open question.

I will say this to Dulac and others making a similar argument. "Draft Pick" is a tricky guy. I hear a ton about him every off-season. I hear about how amazing and super NFL ready "Draft Pick" is and how he can help my team get over the hump. Sometimes that is all true and "Draft Pick" shows up and does Juju things or Alvin Kamara things. Other times, "Draft Pick" shows up and does Jarvis Jones things or Marlon Mack things (yeah - remember that draft darling at RB that couldn't leapfrog Old Man River - I mean Frank Gore).

"Draft Pick" is not a sure thing. He can make you look like a genius and he can get you fired.

While at the same time, Bell can (as already proven):

-- Fall off the wagon and get suspended for weed
-- Get injured and miss significant time

Those are risks just as real as "Draft Pick."

Plus there's the additional risk of wear and tear and decline that is not associated with "Draft Pick."

Bell's risks come at $12-15M per season and "Draft Pick's" at about $1-2M per. The odds for future success are greater with Bell, but at what price?

[Mojouw]

While at the same time, Bell can (as already proven):

-- Fall off the wagon and get suspended for weed
-- Get injured and miss significant time

Those are risks just as real as "Draft Pick."

Plus there's the additional risk of wear and tear and decline that is not associated with "Draft Pick."

Bell's risks come at $12-15M per season and "Draft Pick's" at about $1-2M per. The odds for future success are greater with Bell, but at what price?

Good points. I might quibble that the injury risk is roughly the same between Bell and a draft pick (see Cook, Delvin). I also might point out that Bell only ever got caught smoking the devil's lettuce once. The other time was because the NFL kinda screwed him on the testing notification and he "missed" a test. Since the NFL agreed to not advance Bell in the program and reduced his suspension - I'm gonna give him a pass on that one. Long story short - how much greater is Bell's wacky tabacky risk?

Nothing to say on the money thing. Other than I think your rookie salary projection is a bit low. Unless you think that Bell can be replaced by a 3rd or 4th round RB.

[tube517]

Like others, I'm leery of Bell + possible pot use again + possible injury and a giant contract.

OTOH,

Bell the RB + Bell the Receiver + Bell the Blocker

Munch is the best and the OL is one of the best, but Bell gets some credit as well being the #1 blocking back in the league and protecting Ben.

I"ve seen many instances where Bell catches that ILB up the middle and Ben is able to throw a rocket downfield or Bell chips a DE/OLB and catches a short pass after chipping to get a 1st down.

Is all that enough to justify the fat contract?

[AtlantaDan]

Long story short - how much greater is Bell's wacky tabacky risk?

Once he gets out of the random testing program less likely to be caught, but if he signs a long term contract IMO extremely high unless you put a clause in the contract that he forfeits his signing bonus and any other guaranteed payments after the contract year of the next suspension if he gets caught again.

If the guaranteed payments are forfeited or repaid that might wipe those payments off the books for salary cap purposes, as happened with Michael Vick paying $$ back to the Falcons

The NFL recently granted the Atlanta Falcons $3 million worth of salary-cap credits due to the money Michael Vick owed the franchise after the quarterback declared bankruptcy following a conviction on dogfighting charges while a member of the Falcons, according to league sources.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/7...bt-sources-say

[DesertSteel]

Nothing to say on the money thing. Other than I think your rookie salary projection is a bit low. Unless you think that Bell can be replaced by a 3rd or 4th round RB.

I was thinking a 2nd rounder. The total contract of a 2nd tops out just a little over $5M for the whole deal. Steelers would be picking near the end of the 2nd which should place it under $5M.