Bud Dupree one tackle tonight

[Steeldude]

Yeah but no amount of additional playing time is going to make him run faster. And it hasn't been 12 weeks since he's played, he had some snaps a few weeks ago. I think you are misunderstanding where I may be coming from, I have always respected JH and greatly appreciated his level of play, but the reality is that Father Time has caught up with him. Does that mean he can't have an occasional game where we see flashes of the old James? No, but to sit here and claim he is still the best pass rusher on the team is ludicrous. IF that's the case and he's so awesome he wouldn't need all these extra snaps to get up to speed as you claim.

Harrison has never been fast. He gets by on sheer power, will and determination.

I agree that Harrison's age has affected his overall game, but people were saying this when they let him go a few years back and last year. Dupree needs his time cut. He hasn't shown anything.

No OLB on the team has shown themselves to be better than Harrison at rushing the passer. Watt and Dupree needs stunts or good coverage etc... to get to the QB, for the most part. Very rarely do I see them get a sack on their own merit. Harrison has shown this year that he still has it. He showed it in the Browns'(or Bengals) game when he immediately pushed the LT into the QB. He showed it again when they let him play in the Chiefs' game.

Of course he would need to get up to game speed. Every other player(with substantial playing time) in the league has adjusted to it after weeks 1 and 2. Also, Harrison is coming off a back injury. Age plays a part also. I know when I was in my 20's I didn't even need to stretch. I just rolled out of bed, ate some cereal and was fully ready to go. As I went into my 30's injuries slowed me down. I had to stretch and jog before getting up to speed. I would never get up to speed by playing in one short series and then benched for x-amount of snaps. My legs would be tight sitting so long.

But what is Dupree's excuse? He is young, but looks old, lost and slow to react. I have seen nothing but average in coverage. His run gaps assignments leave a lot to be desired. He pass rushing ability is feeble. His effort on the field is sub-par.

I know you aren't disrespecting Harrison : )

[JayC]

really sucks now after losing shazier. 2 busts and maybe a our star line backer could be done. i wouldn't quite call him a jarvis jones level bust yet but he's well on his way.

[BlackAndGold]

Tomlin: "I laugh a lot of times when people ask me, what’s wrong with the production of our outside linebackers? It lets me know these people don’t understand the evolution of the game of football"

​

[pepsyman1]

Yeah but no amount of additional playing time is going to make him run faster. And it hasn't been 12 weeks since he's played, he had some snaps a few weeks ago. I think you are misunderstanding where I may be coming from, I have always respected JH and greatly appreciated his level of play, but the reality is that Father Time has caught up with him. Does that mean he can't have an occasional game where we see flashes of the old James? No, but to sit here and claim he is still the best pass rusher on the team is ludicrous. IF that's the case and he's so awesome he wouldn't need all these extra snaps to get up to speed as you claim.

I wouldn't try to tell you that James is the same guy, but the last time he had any minutes of significance was against KC and he looked very effective and not slow in that game. I will echo a few others, I would rather give Harrison the minutes and see if he's effective. I've seen nothing out of Bud, so it wouldn't be any loss.

[43Hitman]

I wouldn't try to tell you that James is the same guy, but the last time he had any minutes of significance was against KC and he looked very effective and not slow in that game. I will echo a few others, I would rather give Harrison the minutes and see if he's effective. I've seen nothing out of Bud, so it wouldn't be any loss.

Oh but it would. James at this stage of his career is a liability in coverage. Bud drops into coverage A LOT and that can't be overlooked.

[pepsyman1]

Oh but it would. James at this stage of his career is a liability in coverage. Bud drops into coverage A LOT and that can't be overlooked.

I'll take James and give him a shot. I haven't seen him play any significant time and NOT be effective. I can say that about Dupree. Just because he drops into coverage doesn't mean he's effective. I have seen nothing out of him this season that show's me he is. I've seen Watt drop into coverage and be effective and disruptive.

[Mojouw]

Here is what would happen if JH got significant minutes outside of non-pass rushing situations:

1. Offenses would recognize and key on JH. They would run screens, TE passes, and "smoke" outs to his side of the field in order to isolate and expose Harrison in coverages.
2. Defense then has to adjust and someone else will have to slide down into that side of the field and assist. That opens a hole somewhere else.
3. Receivers may found significantly more room to work on that side of the field. Watt, Dupree, and Chickillo are routinely asked to turn and carry WRs, RBs, and TEs, 8-12 yards down the field all by their lonesome.

In none of those above realities does JH even really get to pass rush. OLB is only a 50% pass rush position in Butler's current version of this scheme. But everyone wanted to ditch the fire-zone and move to Cover 2 or man. This is what happens when you do that. Those "hole in zone" that RBs and TEs used to just kill the Steelers with need to have someone at least running and standing there each play. Guess who that is in base?

I think that JH can still rush the passer and I think that he can still anchor his side in the run game. But he simply doesn't fit the new schematic approach in Pittsburgh. That being said, I would find a few more snaps for him every week.

[Mojouw]

I'll take James and give him a shot. I haven't seen him play any significant time and NOT be effective. I can say that about Dupree. Just because he drops into coverage doesn't mean he's effective. I have seen nothing out of him this season that show's me he is. I've seen Watt drop into coverage and be effective and disruptive.

I don't know for sure, but this may be part of the answer - -through Week 13 the Steelers were the #1 ranked defense against TEs and #3 against short passes.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

[43Hitman]

Here is what would happen if JH got significant minutes outside of non-pass rushing situations:

1. Offenses would recognize and key on JH. They would run screens, TE passes, and "smoke" outs to his side of the field in order to isolate and expose Harrison in coverages.
2. Defense then has to adjust and someone else will have to slide down into that side of the field and assist. That opens a hole somewhere else.
3. Receivers may found significantly more room to work on that side of the field. Watt, Dupree, and Chickillo are routinely asked to turn and carry WRs, RBs, and TEs, 8-12 yards down the field all by their lonesome.

In none of those above realities does JH even really get to pass rush. OLB is only a 50% pass rush position in Butler's current version of this scheme. But everyone wanted to ditch the fire-zone and move to Cover 2 or man. This is what happens when you do that. Those "hole in zone" that RBs and TEs used to just kill the Steelers with need to have someone at least running and standing there each play. Guess who that is in base?

I think that JH can still rush the passer and I think that he can still anchor his side in the run game. But he simply doesn't fit the new schematic approach in Pittsburgh. That being said, I would find a few more snaps for him every week.

I don't know for sure, but this may be part of the answer - -through Week 13 the Steelers were the #1 ranked defense against TEs and #3 against short passes.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

You know the old saying. You can lead a horse to water but...

[Mojouw]

You know the old saying. You can lead a horse to water but...

Yeah...I think I heard that one somewhere...

I think the most frustrating thing is if you make statements on either side, no one really hears what is actually being said.

For instance, my concerns about Harrison's role in the base defense of the 2017 Pittsburgh Steelers is not saying that Dupree > Harrison. Simply that Dupree is a better athlete in space than JH at this point in their respective careers. Butler seems to have placed a higher value on that than pure pass rush ability ( where Deebo>Dupree definitely holds until proven otherwise). So it seems to me that maybe the debate isn't really about Dupree and/or Harrison but about what we think of and want the Steelers base 3-4 to look like.

I, for one, will trade sacks from the OLB position for tighter defense in the passing game. Additionally, the team is second in the league in sacks - so it isn't like they are having a hard time getting to the QB.

[43Hitman]

Yeah...I think I heard that one somewhere...

I think the most frustrating thing is if you make statements on either side, no one really hears what is actually being said.

For instance, my concerns about Harrison's role in the base defense of the 2017 Pittsburgh Steelers is not saying that Dupree > Harrison. Simply that Dupree is a better athlete in space than JH at this point in their respective careers. Butler seems to have placed a higher value on that than pure pass rush ability ( where Deebo>Dupree definitely holds until proven otherwise). So it seems to me that maybe the debate isn't really about Dupree and/or Harrison but about what we think of and want the Steelers base 3-4 to look like.

I, for one, will trade sacks from the OLB position for tighter defense in the passing game. Additionally, the team is second in the league in sacks - so it isn't like they are having a hard time getting to the QB.

Right, the sacks are just coming from different positions. VW is a perfect example of this. I would like to see Deebo do his thing too, but not at the expense of being picked apart because of the space we give up to allow him to rush.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[dislocatedday]

Tomlin: "I laugh a lot of times when people ask me, what’s wrong with the production of our outside linebackers? It lets me know these people don’t understand the evolution of the game of football"

​

Do you think Bud has played well this year, and if so where has he excelled?

I'm not criticising you for any positive thoughts you have about Dupree........I am curious what you see in his game that has been an asset to the Steelers this season.

[Steelerette]

Can Dupree play inside?

[Shoes]

Can Dupree play inside?

I'd try it, he isn't doing much outside. He did get a sack last week, but Dalton ran right into his arms.

[BlackAndGold]

Do you think Bud has played well this year, and if so where has he excelled?

I'm not criticising you for any positive thoughts you have about Dupree........I am curious what you see in his game that has been an asset to the Steelers this season.

Well/solid? yes.

He has 5 sacks while mainly dropping into coverage(which is becoming a bigger role for these OLB, this isn't LeBeau's defense anymore where the OLB's have to deliver). Dupree has also been playing great against the run. He's no star player but comparing him to Jarvis is laughable. Jarvis brought nothing to the table as a pass rusher, nor as coverage LB.

#97, and #91 are the guys that have to create the pressure on the QB. They haven't been effective against average to bad o-line for two weeks in a row.

[Shoes]

Well/solid? yes.

He has 5 sacks while mainly dropping into coverage(which is becoming a bigger role for these OLB, this isn't LeBeau's defense anymore where the OLB's have to deliver). Dupree has also been playing great against the run. He's no star player but comparing him to Jarvis is laughable. Jarvis brought nothing to the table as a pass rusher, nor as coverage LB.

#97, and #91 are the guys that have to create the pressure on the QB. They haven't been effective against average to bad o-line for two weeks in a row.

Indeed, but he should be as a R1 pick. All the hype of his freakish athletic ability hasn't amounted to much of anything.

[dislocatedday]

Well/solid? yes.

He has 5 sacks while mainly dropping into coverage(which is becoming a bigger role for these OLB, this isn't LeBeau's defense anymore where the OLB's have to deliver). Dupree has also been playing great against the run. He's no star player but comparing him to Jarvis is laughable. Jarvis brought nothing to the table as a pass rusher, nor as coverage LB.

#97, and #91 are the guys that have to create the pressure on the QB. They haven't been effective against average to bad o-line for two weeks in a row.

Thanks for your observations. Maybe I need to look at Dupree more often. Over the last couple weeks it seemed everytime I saw a run to his side that he was easily getting pushed out of the play. Maybe that wasn't the case, but without going back and explicitly watching him on every play to his side I can't say with certainty just how much this actually happened.

[Mojouw]

Indeed, but he should be as a R1 pick. All the hype of his freakish athletic ability hasn't amounted to much of anything.

Here are all the 1st round DE and OLB draft picks from 2012-2017. http://pfref.com/tiny/xWNTx

A pretty long list of freakish athletic ability that hasn't amounted to much.

Dupree has 0.64 sacks per game started. So other than Bossa and Ray who are running at just under a sack a game clip - the only "pure" OLB on that list that has a better rate is Vic Beasley at .65 per game. Chandler Jones is at .75 but I think he plays alot more DE now.

Does this mean I think Dupree is awesome? Nope. It means I don't think that we are all approaching this from the same standard of evaluation.

The days of the measuring stick being 10+ sacks is likely over. I think it is more complicated now and I am not certain what we should be looking at. I certainly know that Dupree is no Bossa and likely not even a Ray (although playing on the other side of Von Miller likely helps!) but I really am not certain where to rank him after that among the names on that list. Sure his sacks often are of the "dong" variety and he may not really have pass-rush moves, but a quick total sacks/games started ratio says he is on par with other 1st round edge rushers of the past 5 years.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Well/solid? yes.

He has 5 sacks while mainly dropping into coverage(which is becoming a bigger role for these OLB, this isn't LeBeau's defense anymore where the OLB's have to deliver). Dupree has also been playing great against the run. He's no star player but comparing him to Jarvis is laughable. Jarvis brought nothing to the table as a pass rusher, nor as coverage LB.

#97, and #91 are the guys that have to create the pressure on the QB. They haven't been effective against average to bad o-line for two weeks in a row.

if a starting OLB is consistently coming into games dropping into coverage over 50% of the time, that OLB probably just isnt that good at rushing the passer. TJ is way better than any linebacker on the team not named Shazier in coverage (and he drops back a ton accordingly) but he still gets plenty of pressures. So whats Dupree's excuse is my honest question. Ill take pressures over sacks. There are some websites out there like Sportcharts that record the total number of pressures players create but those arent finished until after the season. Im curious to see where Dupree ends up by seasons end because I have a hard time believing anyone would be happy with the number of pressures he is able to create.

Ok, pause. Dupree has been playing great against the run? He was one of the biggest culprits on run defense yesterday, his gap discipline was terrible. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201712...348&tab=videos

Thats as clear as day. The only players who were worse against the run were Spence and Moats, one player signed off the street, and another who hasnt played ILB in a couple of years.

i still think Dupree can be a monster. his shoulder injury was reportedly so bad early in the season he couldnt even lift his arm without meds on gameday. maybe hes still hurt, maybe hes just not smart enough to do this right now. i dont know. im not quitting on him yet. hes got one more season to prove himself as far as im concerned, but ive pretty much given up on him for the current season.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Well/solid? yes.

He has 5 sacks while mainly dropping into coverage(which is becoming a bigger role for these OLB, this isn't LeBeau's defense anymore where the OLB's have to deliver). Dupree has also been playing great against the run. He's no star player but comparing him to Jarvis is laughable. Jarvis brought nothing to the table as a pass rusher, nor as coverage LB.

#97, and #91 are the guys that have to create the pressure on the QB. They haven't been effective against average to bad o-line for two weeks in a row.

I must be missing all of these great plays that he's been making against the run. All I ever seem to see is the HB running right past him while he struggles to get off the block or runs too far up field.

I'm a fan of Dupree but I've been very disappointed with his production this year. I thought that this would be the year that he broke out.

[BlackAndGold]

if a starting OLB is consistently coming into games dropping into coverage over 50% of the time, that OLB probably just isnt that good at rushing the passer.

I'll post this again, from Tomlin himself.

Q. In terms of what your defense asks of the outside linebackers, has their role evolved away from being primarily pass-rushers into guys who are asked to do more things in coverage?

A. Without question. And it’s evolved within the last decade, since I’ve been here. Outside linebacker was a rush-man’s position in the early part of my tenure. Guys like LaMarr Woodley and James Harrison were defensive-end-like. They rushed the vast majority of the time. With the evolution of spread football, read-option football, RPOs as the college guys call it – run-pass options – and all the empty backfield stuff, it has become a hybrid position, where they’re asked to do a lot of things: rush, drop in zone, play man-to-man. I just think it’s part of the evolution of football, and I think (outside linebackers) are the most significant components to the adjustments that defenses have made.


That’s why 10 years ago, there were maybe three or four 3-4 teams in the NFL, and that’s why probably half the teams in the NFL now are 3-4 teams. You better have that flexibility in terms of getting people on their feet and playing on their feet, because of the perimeter game, the spread game, and the RPO game.


Q. Within that answer, did you just explain to Steelers Nation why James Harrison isn’t playing a lot of snaps?


A. Or also why Bud Dupree doesn’t have 12 sacks or why T.J. Watt doesn’t have 12 sacks. That position probably is being redefined in a lot of ways by the game. Some of the plays we’ve seen T.J. Watt make in the passing game this year – the big-time interception in Cleveland in his first NFL game, the big-time breakup he had against Jordy Nelson in the Green Bay game a few weeks back – and 10 years ago you never would’ve seen LaMarr Woodley even in a position to make those plays. That’s just the evolution of football. I laugh a lot of times when people ask me, what’s wrong with the production of our outside linebackers? It lets me know these people don’t understand the evolution of the game of football, and I politely answer in some way.

- - - Updated - - -

I must be missing all of these great plays that he's been making against the run. All I ever seem to see is the HB running right past him while he struggles to get off the block or runs too far up field.

I'm a fan of Dupree but I've been very disappointed with his production this year. I thought that this would be the year that he broke out.

Stopping the run is a team effort. Ex: last night the whole front 7 was awful, so was Sean Davis in terms of tackling.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Stopping the run is a team effort. Ex: last night the whole front 7 was awful, so was Sean Davis in terms of tackling.

Sure it is but Dupree isn't doing anything and you said that he was "playing great against the run". I'm not even just talking about last night. I've seen nothing from him against the run.

[Shoes]

Here are all the 1st round DE and OLB draft picks from 2012-2017. http://pfref.com/tiny/xWNTx

A pretty long list of freakish athletic ability that hasn't amounted to much.

Dupree has 0.64 sacks per game started. So other than Bossa and Ray who are running at just under a sack a game clip - the only "pure" OLB on that list that has a better rate is Vic Beasley at .65 per game. Chandler Jones is at .75 but I think he plays alot more DE now.

Does this mean I think Dupree is awesome? Nope. It means I don't think that we are all approaching this from the same standard of evaluation.

The days of the measuring stick being 10+ sacks is likely over. I think it is more complicated now and I am not certain what we should be looking at. I certainly know that Dupree is no Bossa and likely not even a Ray (although playing on the other side of Von Miller likely helps!) but I really am not certain where to rank him after that among the names on that list. Sure his sacks often are of the "dong" variety and he may not really have pass-rush moves, but a quick total sacks/games started ratio says he is on par with other 1st round edge rushers of the past 5 years.

The standard was Pittsburgh needed a pass rusher, they draft Dupree and he isn't excelling at it.

[BlackAndGold]

Sure it is but Dupree isn't doing anything and you said that he was "playing great against the run". I'm not even just talking about last night. I've seen nothing from him against the run.

Have the Steelers been getting gashed in the run game besides yesterday? Nope, seems like he and others have been doing their jobs.

Seeing nothing is a good thing.

- - - Updated - - -

The standard was Pittsburgh needed a pass rusher, they draft Dupree and he isn't excelling at it.

Yet the Steelers are 2nd in sacks.

[Mojouw]

The standard was Pittsburgh needed a pass rusher, they draft Dupree and he isn't excelling at it.

Since the drafting of Bud Dupree, the pass rush - at least in terms of sacks has improved. So where does that leave things?

Like I said, I am a fan of Dupree's potential but I am not a great fan of the player on the field. He is far better than Jones but far below where I would like things to be.

But I do not think that sacks are really the only or even most useful standard to judge Dupree's play.

[Steeldude]

Oh but it would. James at this stage of his career is a liability in coverage. Bud drops into coverage A LOT and that can't be overlooked.

How do you know he is a liability in coverage? Last year PFF reportedly rated Harrison the 3rd best LB in coverage. Now granted, that doesn't mean he was the 3rd best, but it does point out that he is at the very least an average LB in coverage. What has Dupree shown to suggest he is better than Harrison or that he is any good in coverage? Age? Athleticism? Neither means you are good in coverage or even a good football player. For example, Scott Shields was a flop. Also, look at all of the NFL combo warriors who failed. I found Deshea Townsend to be a better CB than Ike Taylor. Taylor's ability to cover left him because he no longer had the speed. Taylor also lacked fundamentals. As for Dupree, to me he is just an athlete who ran a good 40 time for his size. Harrison's ability had nothing to do with his speed. Wasn't his 40 time a 4.9 or worse?

Dupree has dropped into coverage 26% of the time. Harrison last year was 32%. Dupree has defended 3 passes during his 3 year career with no INTs. In those same three years Harrison has 5 passes defensed with 2 INTs in limited playing time. Yes, stats do not always dictate who his better, but it doesn't appear Harrison has been lacking in coverage in the games I have seen, or least I haven't noticed it. According to SteelersDepot, last year Harrison led all LBs(inside and out) in pressures and snaps per pressure. Out of the OLBs last year Harrison dropped into coverage the most too. I don't recall Harrison being a consistent liability in coverage last year. I can't recall his coverage skills being a reason for a loss either.

At this stage of Dupree's career he is supposed to be an impact player.

[SteelerFanInStl]

Have the Steelers been getting gashed in the run game besides yesterday? Nope, seems like he and others have been doing their jobs.

I'd say that the rest of the front 7 have done a good job against the run (outside of the Jags and Bears games) but that doesn't mean that Dupree has also.

I'm still waiting for you to show me something that would make me believe that Dupree is "playing great against the run" like you said.

[Steeldude]

Yet the Steelers are 2nd in sacks.

BR is leading the lead in passing so no need to find another WR, right? Bryant is just fine according to your logic. I mean he hasn't done anything, but that's ok because the Steelers are leading in passing yardage.

[Shoes]

Well the Pats just lost.

[BlackAndGold]

I'd say that the rest of the front 7 have done a good job against the run (outside of the Jags and Bears games) but that doesn't mean that Dupree has also.

I'm still waiting for you to show me something that would make me believe that Dupree is "playing great against the run" like you said.

What you want me to do? post gifs of every game like I'm Steelers Depot? Don't be a clown.

Counting yesterday(wanna see how Tuitt played also), and the Jags games(all around disaster game) were the only times I remember him not controlling his gap against the run. Other than that, I have not noticed him in the run game.

Also I'll change great(since you're taking this dead serious) to "good".

- - - Updated - - -

BR is leading the lead in passing so no need to find another WR, right? Bryant is just fine according to your logic. I mean he hasn't done anything, but that's ok because the Steelers are leading in passing yardage.

Smh.

JuJu: 585 yards receiving including 5 TD's. (JuJu has also missed two games this year, could easily be over 600 yards receiving.)
Bell: 579 receiving yards, 2 TD's.

That's the two receiving options behind Brown.