That's probably an unfair statement.Originally Posted by Shoes
Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute">
That's probably an unfair statement.
Array title="Shoes has a reputation beyond repute">
Your probably right since many of them are so into school they jump on the NFL bandwagon in their JR year.
A few interesting reads
https://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...etes-education
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/us/nca...res/index.html
Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute">
You're probably right. Only 3 of the 53 Steelers cared anything about their education.
Array title="Shoes has a reputation beyond repute">
The majority of them didn't get scholarships to school for their academic achievements. It was because they were gifted athletically and their goal is to play in the NFL and make a lot of money not their education. Nothing wrong with that.
Ron Cook: Yes, Mike Tomlin has room to improve
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
JAN 23, 2018
Mike Tomlin is a good coach. I believe he’s the second-best coach in the NFL. But it has become clearer than ever that the gap between him and Bill Belichick is enormous. It is just as clear that Tomlin can be so much better. Art Rooney II should demand that he be better.
I thought about that Sunday as I watched James Harrison get a big sack to help the New England Patriots beat the Jacksonville Jaguars on their way to Super Bowl LII. Harrison was at the center of much that went wrong for Tomlin this season. Releasing Harrison when he did and allowing him to go to the Steelers’ biggest rival might have been Tomlin’s worst mistake. That easily could have been Ben Roethlisberger who Harrison sacked late in the AFC championship, not the Jaguars’ Blake Bortles.
to read rest of article:
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/r...s/201801230018
Enormous isnt the word for it...not to mention the stupid decisions Tomlin makes at times...just boneheaded at times...ie) Harrison situation.
Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
It is like the 70s - Oilers coached by colorful media personality Bum Phillips while Steelers coached by bloodless technician Chuck Noll - the gap was pretty enormous then too
As I have posted before, those of us around in the 70s now know what it was like to be a Raiders, Bengals, or Oilers fan
I remember Bum once declaring something to the effect, "this year we banged on the door, next year we're going to knock the damn door down."
It never happened.
Array title="stillers4me has a reputation beyond repute">
Why are we still posting new articles in 3 month old threads.
article is dated Nov 26 so actually that would only be two months...Why are we still posting new articles in 3 month old threads.
Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute">
No way of proving it of course.But I think we'd still be playing if Tomlin doesn't onsides kick with 2.18 down 7 with two time outs. I think the pressure on Jacksonville's offense would have been immense if they start at or inside their own 25 with a raucous Heinz Field crowd howling needing a first down to keep a pistol hot Steelers offense off the field. I truly believe they wouldn't have even let Bortles pass. 3 runs into a stacked box to either gain or come up short of a first down. It was the worst coaching decision I've ever seen in my life in a big game.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
Even my wife said Tomlin does not make good football decisions and, she is so right!
Or it could've been another long pass to Cole against a sold out run stop (earlier the same game). Or a 80+ yard run for a TD (Dallas last year in same situation, Bears and Jags this year).No way of proving it of course.But I think we'd still be playing if Tomlin doesn't onsides kick with 2.18 down 7 with two time outs. I think the pressure on Jacksonville's offense would have been immense if they start at or inside their own 25 with a raucous Heinz Field crowd howling needing a first down to keep a pistol hot Steelers offense off the field. I truly believe they wouldn't have even let Bortles pass. 3 runs into a stacked box to either gain or come up short of a first down. It was the worst coaching decision I've ever seen in my life in a big game.
I mean hindsight is 20/20 and kicking onsides there only looks bad because they lost. They win and Tomlin is a convention defying genius.
Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute">
Bullshit! No fucking hindsight involved. No one in their right mind thought that was the percentage play when and as it happened! If they would have pulled it off I still would have said it was the wrong move. If they break the run or get the first down via pass you take your hat off and congratulate them for earning the win.
Contested onsides kicks are at best like a 10% proposition. For most teams. For this team even less. As we know the Steelers haven't successfully executed an onsides kick since Tomlin's first season in 07. Speaking of which.
Hell I even remember Tomlin's first playoff game during the 07 playoffs ( played in Jan 08) when in a similar situation he wouldn't let Big Ben throw clinging to a lead with under 4 minutes to go. And we ended up punting away and David Garrard ended up beating us in Heinz Field.
You know I've never been a Tomlin basher. But that move was indefensible! Again you weren't kicking the ball away to Aaron Rogers, you were kicking it to Blake Bortles in his first ever road playoff game. Make them make a play inside their own territory with everything on the line. Different dynamic than they ever faced. It was a horrible decision. Period.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
The Jaguars would have marched down for another score or ate up all of the time. Even if the Steelers stacked the box I doubt they would have stopped the running game. The Steelers defense looks lost far too often. The Steelers need a real DC.No way of proving it of course.But I think we'd still be playing if Tomlin doesn't onsides kick with 2.18 down 7 with two time outs. I think the pressure on Jacksonville's offense would have been immense if they start at or inside their own 25 with a raucous Heinz Field crowd howling needing a first down to keep a pistol hot Steelers offense off the field. I truly believe they wouldn't have even let Bortles pass. 3 runs into a stacked box to either gain or come up short of a first down. It was the worst coaching decision I've ever seen in my life in a big game.
Hater = Realist
Out of curiosity, whats it matter if the Steelers Defense needs to stop them at the 20 or the 50? Regardless of where the ball ends up (and theres no guarantee that the Jags dont return the kickoff to that point where the botched onside kick ended up) the Steelers Defense didnt stop them. And yes, you werent kicking off to Aaron Rodgers...but they were kicking off to Blake Bortles who was playing like Aaron Rodgers. Lol. They didnt stop them all day, they didnt stop them Week 5.
I get all that, I do. And I wasn't attempting to accuse you of bashing Tomlin or anyone else. All I was point out was that in multiple situations in the same game and recent seasons with essentially the same defense, the Steelers had failed to make critical stops on defense. So Tomlin took a big risk. It didn't work. But to say there was no chain of reasoning or valid line of thinking behind the call is ignoring facts and recent events.
Also, that 07 defense was just a bit better than its 2017 counterpart. The 2016 defense let Elliot rip off a long TD run in the same situation that you are envisioning (Young QB on the road in crunch time) and that was with better ILB play. All day, the Steelers defense let up critical plays when they needed stops against the Jags. Then there was the Howard TD in OT against the Bears.
Saying that the defense should be able to stop Bortles and the Jags in their own territory and the defense actually doing it are 2 totally different things.
I think Tomlin made a lot of mistakes in this game, but I'm not sure the onsides kick was one of them.
His waste of a TO on offense with 3:30 left was ridiculous. Not calling his other 2 TO's prior to the 2 minute warning could have no reasonable explanation.
The way I look at the onside kick is that our D hadn't shown they could stop Jax from getting a TD all day, let alone that they just needed 1 first down. With that in mind, it was worth the risk to try it. In addition, if it was executed properly and we didn't recover it, they likely recover it at the 46 yard line. 1 first down ends the game whether they were at our 46 or their own 25. If they go 3 and out, not sure Marone kicked a 58+ yard FG. He likely punts and our offense would have 1:45 to drive 80-90 yards, which I fully believe they could have, the way they moved the ball in the 2nd half. Tomlin could not have guessed that his kicker would kick a 4 yard duff and that the Jags would get 9 yards to get into FG range without the first down. That should never have been in play. Only the poor kick execution made it possible.
Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute">
I don't agree with the onsides kick, mostly because it didn't work. But, I understand the call, mostly since our defense could stop a bowling ball in sand. It didn't matter where the Jags got the ball, they were going to keep it at that point in the game. They had our defense by the shorts and Tomlin knew it, and gave us a CHANCE to make a play and go win the game. It's genius if it works.
Chuck Noll went for it on 4th & 9 in the Super Bowl ( I think it was X) against the Cowboys. The Cowboys had one of the most potent offenses in the league and Noll made the call with the game on the line...he ran Bleier right into the defense and got maybe 3 yards...A TERRIBLE CALL. The defense (probably best in NFL History) helps the decision...but if for some reason they didnt stop them and the Cowboys score, the Noll legacy may not be what it is today.
Cowher made that onside kick call in Super Bowl XXX and was a genius for it. If it failed, hed be labeled an idiot.
Tomlin made a gut call (just like the coaches before him) and because of Danny Smiths special teams they didnt even have an opportunity for recovery.
Its part of coaching. Rather have a coach with some balls than a guy that just sits back and plays everything overly conservative...and is out of a job in 3 years. You have to make the tough calls...
That’s sort of my thoughts, as well.
1) The Steelers defense was reeling. And, tired.
2) The on-side kick should have traveled 10-12 yards (to around midfield).
a) If you get it, your defense gets to rest and you have the ball at midfield. It’s a small chance, but considering how “out of sorts” the defense was, it’s a logical call to make.
b) If you don’t get it, oh well... you’re in the same boat: needing to force a 3-&-out (because, if the Jags get a first down, the game is over).
Let’s say say they get 9 yards... as you said, it’s a 56-58 yard FG attempt. A miss give the Steelers the ball at midfield; so, the Jags likely punt it. Voila!!!!... the Steelers have to go 80-90 yards to tie the game.
3) The execution of the on-side kick was awful. Not only did it not travel 10-12 yards, it hit a Steelers player (5-yard penalty added to the crappy field position). In other words, instead of the Jaguars getting the ball at midfield, they got the ball alreasy in FG range.
Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute">
Noll went for that 4th down because the Cowboys had blocked one punt earlier in the game and nearly two others on top of that. Punter Bobby Walden was having issues with his hand, and was having difficulty transitioning the ball to punt. That's why he "went for it" there. Because he knew his punter was as likely to get his punt blocked as he was to get it off. He didn't pass because Bradshaw had been knocked out of the game by D.D. Lewis and Terry Hanratty was simply awful.
Cowher's onside kick against the Cowboys in SB XXX was an uncontested onsides kick. Huge difference. It caught the Cowboys completely by surprise and changed the games momentum. The Steelers to that point were getting their asses kicked. That kick put wind in their sails and the game was turned to the Steelers favor from that point until dumb ass O'Donnell threw his late picks. But again the difference in the success rate of an uncontested unexpected onsides kick as opposed to a defended onsides kick is extensive. The Saint's also used the same ploy to turn the momentum of their SB against the Colts. Not even remotely comparable game situation to Tomlin's onside kick.
A little context goes a long way.Tomlin made a stupid call. I don't give a shit what the Jaguars offense had done to that point. It's a totally different dynamic protecting that lead with the weight f your season riding on it. Hell just go back a month earlier when the Steelers played the Pats. How many times did the Steelers punt that game? Not many. They pretty much pushed the Pats defense around all game. But when the Steelers got the ball back with around 4 minutes to play, a couple first downs and it's all she wrote, what happens? They get too conservative for their own good, and end up punting the ball back to Brady with plenty of time for the Patriots to take the lead. Think Bortles is better than Ben? I don't. Did Ben gag? No. It's just a different game dynamic than at any other point of the game. You put Bortles and that Jaguar offense inside their 25 and make them beat you.
I haven't heard one non Tomlin fanboy defend the call.
Does that mean I want Tomlin fired? No. Does that mean I'm diminishing his overall coaching resume? No. It just means it was a poor decision. You likely wont find another head coach who would say it was the correct call given the moment. It cost the Steelers their last real chance to tie that game. Not saying it cost them the game. It just cost them a reasonable chance to tie.
Oh yeah the Steelers also should have kicked the fg when they had the ball back with the clock stopped at 49 seconds in a 10 point game. Scoring a td with 1 second on the clock was ludicrous.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
Depends if the only concern was who won the game - anyone who bet the halftime line at Steelers -7&1/2 did not think it was ludicrous
http://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/odds...4-18/time/1305
Steelers won the second half 28-17. Kicking a FG with no further score would have won the second half 24-17.
Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute">
This.Noll went for that 4th down because the Cowboys had blocked one punt earlier in the game and nearly two others on top of that. Punter Bobby Walden was having issues with his hand, and was having difficulty transitioning the ball to punt. That's why he "went for it" there. Because he knew his punter was as likely to get his punt blocked as he was to get it off. He didn't pass because Bradshaw had been knocked out of the game by D.D. Lewis and Terry Hanratty was simply awful.
Cowher's onside kick against the Cowboys in SB XXX was an uncontested onsides kick. Huge difference. It caught the Cowboys completely by surprise and changed the games momentum. The Steelers to that point were getting their asses kicked. That kick put wind in their sails and the game was turned to the Steelers favor from that point until dumb ass O'Donnell threw his late picks. But again the difference in the success rate of an uncontested unexpected onsides kick as opposed to a defended onsides kick is extensive. The Saint's also used the same ploy to turn the momentum of their SB against the Colts. Not even remotely comparable game situation to Tomlin's onside kick.
A little context goes a long way.
I haven't heard one non Tomlin fanboy defend the call.
Does that mean I want Tomlin fired? No. Does that mean I'm diminishing his overall coaching resume? No. It just means it was a poor decision. You likely wont find another head coach who would say it was the correct call given the moment. It cost the Steelers their last real chance to tie that game. Not saying it cost them the game. It just cost them a reasonable chance to tie.
Oh yeah the Steelers also should have kicked the fg when they had the ball back with the clock stopped at 49 seconds in a 10 point game. Scoring a td with 1 second on the clock was ludicrous.
This is what drives me crazy on this forum. Complete lack of consistency. In the same post you argue that what happened in other games should be used as context for a coaching decision. But in the same post, what the Jags had done all game should be omitted from context? I guess because that context would give validity to the coaching decision that is being raged against. It matters that punts were NEARLY blocked, but not that the Jags had not been stopped yet? A little context does indeed go a long way. Not that I am a fan of the onsides kick, but there ARE actual valid reasons for it. But I guess that doesn't matter since you just don't give a $#@!.
And really, why such an aggressive stance anyway?
Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute">
Because it was a stupid ass move that cost the Steelers a legitimate chance to tie the game. Blake Bortles and the Jaguars offense were quite likely to throw up on themselves if you pin them inside the 25 with 2.18 to go and the Steelers holding two time outs. Hostile crowd in full throat.
You wont find one current or former head coach that will validate that onsides kick in that situation. You basically were playing a lottery ticket the moment you went down that road.
And oh yeah, Tomlin's Steelers don't do onside kicks!
Kinda think they've made a few more defensive stops than onsides kicks in the Tomlin era.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute">
So it's ok to point out specific mistakes that Ben makes during a game and state how that cost the Steelers the game, but oh God don't dare point out when the head coach makes a bone headed move?
"A man's got to know his limitations."
Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute">
Doesn't matter. No context may be used now. Just the, 'I'm right , you're wrong', I don't care.
If you read, I said I'm not a fan of the onsides kick. Not defending it.
Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute">
Correct context is always relevant. But I can find you dozens of games where an offense ran it up and down the field all day, but when put in 4 minute offensive mode to preserve a lead they came up short . Again go back to the Steelers -Patriots game a month before when the Steelers played it too close to the vest and punted after a 3 and out. And guess what, that was the only effing 3 and out the Steelers had that entire game! So that excuse of Tomlin's decision goes right out the window! Guess Bellichick should have kicked it onsides with 3.40 to go? Would have been the smart play since the Steelers hadn't gone 3 and out all game!
Sorry I'm not trying to be a dick. But it's all about game dynamics. The Steelers hadn't gone 3 and out all game agianst the Patriots. But the game dynamic changed. So claiming the Steelers had little chance to hold the Jaguars to a 3 and out, or force a punt with enough time to score just doesn't wash with me.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
Nope...its not about the context...youre missing the point. Noll made the call because of exactly what you said...balls move. Tomlin made the call because of a very similar unsuccessful situation. Bortles dominated the Steelers all day. There wasnt even a little sign that the defense could do anything to stop the Jags. He made an aggressive call. I dont necessarily agree with it but if you cant understand why he made the call, theres no helping you...you cant win being conservative. Cowher made an aggressive call and was praised for it...it was successful. Tomlin made an aggressive call...you dont know that if thats executed correctly that it isnt successful. Boswell and Danny Smiths special teams screwed the pooch...but since it was unsuccessful, Tomlin is an idiot...lol.
No one was calling him an idiot when he beat the Chargers on an aggressive call...lol.
People on this board complain non-stop that when the Steelers have a lead, they go conservative...everyone wants them to be aggressive...lol.
Aggressive coaches win. Conservative coaches lose.
ie) Doug Pederson. Super Bowl LII Champion.
Lol...perfect timing...
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...way-to-go-8-8/
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