Heroes and Goats

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I'm not a Haley hater, was merely making an observation about the game. might want to get your facts straight before you post your pompous schtick...

How many times were the Steelers in the red zone yesterday? Answer is twice.
How many points did the Steelers get in those 2 trips? Answer is 10.
On the trip they only got 3 points, 2 of the 3 plays from "and goal" situation were a non called PI on Derrick Johnson and a missed block from left side of the line that resulted in a 4 yard loss on Bell's run.

So how is that kind of red zone performance "atrocious" as you say? How was Haley's play calling in the red zone causing the missed block and the non called PI?

My apologies, but if you are not a Haley hater, then I really don't know what issue you have with the fact that the Steelers got to the red zone 2 times and scored a TD on 1 and should have had another if it wasn't for missed blocks and a missed interference call that even Tony Romo said Johnson got away with, that resulted in the FG.

[tube517]

Fire Everyone!!!!

[Iron Steeler]

Heroes :
1.Brown - Holy shit play
2.Bell - Played dominate.... ( ALTHOUGH THAT PATIENCE ON THAT 3RD DOWN CATCH PISSED ME OFF. JUST CHOOSE A DIRECTION AND RUN FOR THE FIRST DOWN. HE WAS A YARD SHORT BY GETTING TOO CUTE)

3.Tuitt: Was giving Alex Smith nightmares and happy feet.

Goat: 3RD Down offense. We could not sustain a drive

Honorable Mention :

1.Hilton, his blitzing and ability to cover slot/ crossing routes
2.Harrison, for making Fisher his b***h again and closing out the game with a DEEBO SACK

[Mojouw]

What difficult concept about the fact that he only has the right side boundary in pass coverage is still excusable as "growing pains"?

Burns was flat footed and staring in the backfield, while DeAnthony Thomas was 15 yards behind him. That is college sophomore level of play in zone coverage. The other one where he bailed out to leave Robinson alone was another huge mistake that could have easily been another TD. Its not growing pains, its not doing a basic job as a boundary CB.

Playing CB at anything other than "run around with the guy across from you" finds Burns at a low-level of mental knowledge and reps. Because he basically is a college sophomore in experience/coaching. He came out after his Junior year due to his families only income source unexpectedly passing. His entire career at Miami (not a known bastion of technique based coaching) he was split between track and football. Burns is so raw and I suspect he is kinda dumb too. He basically gets by on athleticism and whatever fractional percentage of his assignment he actually remembers in a given coverage scheme.

Nowhere did I say that anyone should find Burns' mental lapses excusable. But I do think it is possible to understand why they are happening w/out resorting to "ZOMG! Burns is awful!".

Interestingly enough, Burns seems to still be finding more initial playing time than Apple, Jackson, and Alexander. And having an impact on par with an CB in the class not named Ramsey.

I think Burns will continue to run hot and cold as well as make glaring mental gaffes. He strikes me as a player that runs almost purely on emotion.

[86WARD]

Heroes: Vince Williams, Hilton, LeVeon Bell, Ben.

Goats: AB, Burns

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Playing CB at anything other than "run around with the guy across from you" finds Burns at a low-level of mental knowledge and reps. Because he basically is a college sophomore in experience/coaching. He came out after his Junior year due to his families only income source unexpectedly passing. His entire career at Miami (not a known bastion of technique based coaching) he was split between track and football. Burns is so raw and I suspect he is kinda dumb too. He basically gets by on athleticism and whatever fractional percentage of his assignment he actually remembers in a given coverage scheme.

Nowhere did I say that anyone should find Burns' mental lapses excusable. But I do think it is possible to understand why they are happening w/out resorting to "ZOMG! Burns is awful!".

Interestingly enough, Burns seems to still be finding more initial playing time than Apple, Jackson, and Alexander. And having an impact on par with an CB in the class not named Ramsey.

I think Burns will continue to run hot and cold as well as make glaring mental gaffes. He strikes me as a player that runs almost purely on emotion.

OK, I still just don't understand why Burns gets such a pass from fans for such terrible plays like yesterday in coverage, or in Chicago for playing matador on tackling, while other guys like Keenan Lewis or Cortez Allen were just crucified by fans for their mistakes as 2nd year corners.

Burns has been playing zone for approx. 1 year in the Steelers system and should not be flat footed and letting a receiver behind him like he did, nor in the corner of the end zone. There really is no excuse and he needs to be better. Your assessment of playing on emotion is interesting as I find it curious he runs around, celebrates and gets in guys faces when doing his job, yet stares dead faced and looks around, seemingly seeking somebodys approval or explanation when he makes a bonehead play like that.

Burns is improving and is definitely an asset to the defense, but plays like those are just stuff that UDFA's know where to be and how to put the effort in to get in their zone, or try and make a tackle. Most fans give him a white glove treatment though, and I don't know if its sympathy or hope. I just don't see it as objective.

[DesertSteel]

It's nice that the Steelers can be the #1 passing defense in the NFL and still find lots of room for improvement.

[hawaiiansteeler]

How many times were the Steelers in the red zone yesterday? Answer is twice.
How many points did the Steelers get in those 2 trips? Answer is 10.
On the trip they only got 3 points, 2 of the 3 plays from "and goal" situation were a non called PI on Derrick Johnson and a missed block from left side of the line that resulted in a 4 yard loss on Bell's run.

So how is that kind of red zone performance "atrocious" as you say? How was Haley's play calling in the red zone causing the missed block and the non called PI?

My apologies, but if you are not a Haley hater, then I really don't know what issue you have with the fact that the Steelers got to the red zone 2 times and scored a TD on 1 and should have had another if it wasn't for missed blocks and a missed interference call that even Tony Romo said Johnson got away with, that resulted in the FG.

I guess my issue is with you being a know it all condescending jerk more than anything else, why don't you get off your high horse and stop trying to act superior to your other Steelers members?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I guess my issue is with you being a know it all condescending jerk more than anything else, why don't you get off your high horse and stop trying to act superior to your other Steelers members?

My apologies if it comes off that way.

I guess that when people make comments and assertions like " Haley's red zone playcalling is atrocious", when it accounted for 10 points out of 14 and the 4 points left on the field were actually not the fault of the OC it was directed at I sometimes confront those posts with sarcasm. Sorry to have directed my sarcasm at you and create hard feelings.

[Mojouw]

OK, I still just don't understand why Burns gets such a pass from fans for such terrible plays like yesterday in coverage, or in Chicago for playing matador on tackling, while other guys like Keenan Lewis or Cortez Allen were just crucified by fans for their mistakes as 2nd year corners.

Burns has been playing zone for approx. 1 year in the Steelers system and should not be flat footed and letting a receiver behind him like he did, nor in the corner of the end zone. There really is no excuse and he needs to be better. Your assessment of playing on emotion is interesting as I find it curious he runs around, celebrates and gets in guys faces when doing his job, yet stares dead faced and looks around, seemingly seeking somebodys approval or explanation when he makes a bonehead play like that.

Burns is improving and is definitely an asset to the defense, but plays like those are just stuff that UDFA's know where to be and how to put the effort in to get in their zone, or try and make a tackle. Most fans give him a white glove treatment though, and I don't know if its sympathy or hope. I just don't see it as objective.

I can't speak to why some folks get on some players and not others. I do know that every Sunday that I actually watch other games - I see DBs blowing coverages, losing guys in space, peeking into the backfield and guessing, missing tackles, etc. It happens in every game on almost every play.

I just can't get too worked up with keeping track of what players are doing what errors on a per game basis. I think there were 34 pass plays run by KC. 2 coverages that Burns glaringly blew. That means 32 plays he was potentially doing what he was intended to do. What I am supposed to make of that?

I see a pattern of more good than bad with Burns. Is he a flawed player? Certainly - his run support remains an issue and his attention to detail seems a bit dodgy currently.

[DesertSteel]

I can't speak to why some folks get on some players and not others. I do know that every Sunday that I actually watch other games - I see DBs blowing coverages, losing guys in space, peeking into the backfield and guessing, missing tackles, etc. It happens in every game on almost every play.

I just can't get too worked up with keeping track of what players are doing what errors on a per game basis. I think there were 34 pass plays run by KC. 2 coverages that Burns glaringly blew. That means 32 plays he was potentially doing what he was intended to do. What I am supposed to make of that?

I see a pattern of more good than bad with Burns. Is he a flawed player? Certainly - his run support remains an issue and his attention to detail seems a bit dodgy currently.

I agree 100%

[steel striker]

Stating the obvious Bell & Defense & Brown what a play on that catch!! Mike Mitchell still worries me.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Burns became pretty good against the run down the stretch last season after being god awful for the first few. im not buying the argument that Burns' lack of run tackles this season is due to a lack of effort or him being a wuss. Hell, he LED out cornerbacks in run tackles last season. We all do realize the defense held the Chiefs to less than 50 yards of offense until near the end of the 3rd quarter right? Burns was a big part of that and still managed some key pass breakups. In a game full of great defensive performances i think that can be easily forgotten.

In other news, Davis finally seems to be rounding back into form. Nice job sniffing out screens and that pass breakup that could have been a TD was unconventional but a thing of beauty

[Mojouw]

Some more perspective on Burns: Hargreaves was taken 2 or 3 CBs before Burns in the first and everyone figured he was gonna be a star. He has completely struggled this season:

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/...non-hargreaves -- "Hargreaves is Pro Football Focus' No. 108 cover corner out of 112 qualifiers and has given up the third-most yards in his coverage of those 112 corners."

Same with Eli Apple:
"The only constant has been Apple's struggles. It sounds like further reduced playing time could be in the cards." -- http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/11332/eli-apple

ALexander got redshirted on IR last year even though he was practicing because Vikings figured he wasn't ready. Appears to be more of the same this year:
"Vikings coach Mike Zimmer said second-year CB Mackensie Alexander needs to "understand his assignments better." -- http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/...nsie-alexander

William Jackson III is still the 3rd or 4th CB on the Bengals after an injury red-shirt year essentially.

What is my point? Most DBs take a few years to develop. It appears that Burns is either on par or ahead of every DB in his draft cohort besides Jalen Ramsey. I mean Burns still doesn't always tackle well, celebrates tying his shoes, and is not assignment sound on each and every play. But at least he can get on the field and put in a legit NFL caliber performance. Most of his draft class can not say the same thing.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Some more perspective on Burns: Hargreaves was taken 2 or 3 CBs before Burns in the first and everyone figured he was gonna be a star. He has completely struggled this season:

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/...non-hargreaves -- "Hargreaves is Pro Football Focus' No. 108 cover corner out of 112 qualifiers and has given up the third-most yards in his coverage of those 112 corners."

Same with Eli Apple:
"The only constant has been Apple's struggles. It sounds like further reduced playing time could be in the cards." -- http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/11332/eli-apple

ALexander got redshirted on IR last year even though he was practicing because Vikings figured he wasn't ready. Appears to be more of the same this year:
"Vikings coach Mike Zimmer said second-year CB Mackensie Alexander needs to "understand his assignments better." -- http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/...nsie-alexander

William Jackson III is still the 3rd or 4th CB on the Bengals after an injury red-shirt year essentially.

What is my point? Most DBs take a few years to develop. It appears that Burns is either on par or ahead of every DB in his draft cohort besides Jalen Ramsey. I mean Burns still doesn't always tackle well, celebrates tying his shoes, and is not assignment sound on each and every play. But at least he can get on the field and put in a legit NFL caliber performance. Most of his draft class can not say the same thing.

I'm in agreement that it normally takes CB's a year or 2 to be able to contribute, unless the CB is polished and none of Burns, Alexander or Apple had much polish on them.

Burns standing flat footed in zone coverage when he has to know he has the deep 1/3 in coverage is not adjustment to the NFL, nor growing pains. My 16 year old son has had less time in zone than Burns and he turns his hips and gets back in coverage, rather than looking at the QB and shouting directions, or whatever he was doing. Its just terrible and there is no way to sugar coat it. Its over, he can look at it on film, learn and move on....but just as I said Ben was bad in Chicago, but gave credit where due in Baltimore, Burns gets a lump of coal down the stretch in KC.

[Mojouw]

I'm in agreement that it normally takes CB's a year or 2 to be able to contribute, unless the CB is polished and none of Burns, Alexander or Apple had much polish on them.

Burns standing flat footed in zone coverage when he has to know he has the deep 1/3 in coverage is not adjustment to the NFL, nor growing pains. My 16 year old son has had less time in zone than Burns and he turns his hips and gets back in coverage, rather than looking at the QB and shouting directions, or whatever he was doing. Its just terrible and there is no way to sugar coat it. Its over, he can look at it on film, learn and move on....but just as I said Ben was bad in Chicago, but gave credit where due in Baltimore, Burns gets a lump of coal down the stretch in KC.

ANd no one is really disagreeing with that. I am only pointing out that many have questioned where the love for Burns comes from. I am merely attempting to point out that by the reasonable measuring stick of the other 1st round CBs in his draft class, Burns is the second best right now. Does that still mean glaring mistakes and some just absolutely stunningly bad plays? Yup.

But I think that is where the optimism or much of the positivity regarding Burns is coming from. He is either ahead of or at least right on the curve being set by his class.

[hawaiiansteeler]

And no one is really disagreeing with that. I am only pointing out that many have questioned where the love for Burns comes from. I am merely attempting to point out that by the reasonable measuring stick of the other 1st round CBs in his draft class, Burns is the second best right now. Does that still mean glaring mistakes and some just absolutely stunningly bad plays? Yup.

But I think that is where the optimism or much of the positivity regarding Burns is coming from. He is either ahead of or at least right on the curve being set by his class.

yup, and Jalen Ramsey was selected 5th overall whereas we picked Artie 25th...

[Psycho Ward 86]

People do realize Artie Burns is still only 22 years old, had to split his time between track and football in college, and basically raised his siblings during that time right? Here we are in season 2 and he's a starter on the #1 pass defense in the league. He clamped up his run defense as the season wore on last season and I expect he'll figure it out again. Im more concerned about Mitchell going for the killshot instead of playing the ball and Williams/Davis starting the season slow but they both looked great against the Chiefs.

[Steeldude]

People do realize Artie Burns is still only 22 years old, had to split his time between track and football in college, and basically raised his siblings during that time right? Here we are in season 2 and he's a starter on the #1 pass defense in the league. He clamped up his run defense as the season wore on last season and I expect he'll figure it out again. Im more concerned about Mitchell going for the killshot instead of playing the ball and Williams/Davis starting the season slow but they both looked great against the Chiefs.

Yes, at 22 he should very easily understand his assignments and be able to put forth effort.

Here we are in season 2 and he's a starter on the #1 pass defense in the league.

It's not like he had to earn it. Also, who did he have to beat out? The Steelers are number one in pass defense because they faced mostly poor QBs; and their run defense is porous.

[FrancoLambert]

The eye test tells me that our pass defense is a helluva lot better. I don't see cornerbacks getting picked on regularly.
All things considered, I'm happy with Artie's progress.
Instead of focusing on Artie's shortcomings discussion should focus more on Mitchell's antics.

[Steeldude]

The eye test tells me that our pass defense is a helluva lot better. I don't see cornerbacks getting picked on regularly.
All things considered, I'm happy with Artie's progress.
Instead of focusing on Artie's shortcomings discussion should focus more on Mitchell's antics.

Badly missed assignments, giving up and not trying is something I will never overlook.

They need to find Mitchell's replacement next season.

[teegre]

There was once a young Steelers linebacker who (while playing special teams) blocked his man to the ground and then hovered over him... while the play continued on/while he failed to fulfill the rest of his duties.

#burnsallegory

[Mojouw]

There was once a young Steelers linebacker who (while playing special teams) blocked his man to the ground and then hovered over him... while the play continued on/while he failed to fulfill the rest of his duties.

#burnsallegory

ooooooooohhhhhhhh!!!!!! ooooooohhhhhhhh!!! I know! Call on me!!!!

JARVIS JONES!

Was I right?

[Devilsdancefloor]

heroes: Bell & decastro were monsters on O and Hilton on D

Goat:red zone play calling

[Craic]

heroes: Bell & decastro were monsters on O and Hilton on D

Goat:red zone play calling

Huh . . .

I read, "Herpes: Bell and & decastro. . .

I really need to get some sleep.

[Steeldude]

ooooooooohhhhhhhh!!!!!! ooooooohhhhhhhh!!! I know! Call on me!!!!

JARVIS JONES!

Was I right?

He didn't say the LB was blocked to the ground, flailed around like a retard and then people made excuses for him.

[AtlantaDan]

He didn't say the LB was blocked to the ground, flailed around like a retard and then people made excuses for him.

Retard? I can see you were not kidding when you selected your posting picture.

[Steeldude]

Retard? I can see you were not kidding when you selected your posting picture.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Badly missed assignments, giving up and not trying is something I will never overlook.

They need to find Mitchell's replacement next season.

I completely agree with this. While we can look at the positives of Burns improving play at CB, we should not overlook the lack of willingness to tackle at times, or to hustle to get in on tackles, or complete lapses in coverage like Sunday, which resulted in 1TD and should have been another TD if Smith doesn't overthrow the wide open WR that Burns left in the corner of the end zone.

I have said for seasons that Mike Mitchell is a mediocre NFL FS at best and is getting paid too much, but its another case of the Steelers needing to draft pass rushers, OLB's, WR's, CB's before they upgrade his average level of play.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Goat:red zone play calling

What did you not like about the RZ playcalling?

Steelers made 2 trips to the Red Zone on Sunday and came up with 10 points out of those trips.